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Souls fans, does the difficulty misconception frustrate you?

The game is not even hard, you just have to be patient and actually block/dodge some attacks.

Try solo Monster Hunter, that's hard (some of the quests are hard even in multiplayer).
 
Playing through Bloodborne now, and I'm really enjoying it. It's the first of these games that I've played, and honestly, I'm a little surprised that it's not nearly as hard as people have made it out to be. The hardness is really overstated.

I'd definitely agree that the first couple of hours are harder than the rest of the game. You're relatively weak, and common enemies can easily kill you if you aren't careful. You've also got to learn how to do visceral attacks and stun enemies. But after that initial hump, it gets way easier. I've definitely had trouble with some bosses, but it's really no different than hard bosses in other games.
 
Souls games are basically the Groundhog Day or Edge of Tomorrow of ARPGS. You know how in those movies, the protagonist will die or fail, but then later they can pull off things with trained honed perfection due to practice and experience?

That's the pacing of a Souls game. Each death is a lesson

I agree with this description for sure. And that's why i finished Bloodborne (twice actually) and didn't get ds3. Sounds like a lot of work , not my idea of video games anymore . Enjoyed bb but ultimately it feels like a different sort of grind, a learning or levelling grind however you prefer to approach it. I don't need an easy mode but if it had one I'd probably buy ds3.
 
They're definitely hard. In Demon's Souls, you can get to world 2 and somebody can invade your game and stab you with a spear that instantly breaks all of your equipment. You would have to grind for at least an hour to repair everything and get back to where you were. If that happened to me I'd probably never play again.
 
Do you feel a movie like 2001 needs to be changed and edited to be easier to understand? Why does a game have to be more inclusive? Why can't one adapt to the game, like one has to if they're reading The Road versus a Jack Reacher novel? Like if I'm reading a book and there are things I don't understand or words I don't know the definition of, I don't ask that the author makes it less advanced. Does that mean not everyone will be able to get into the book or grasp the plot? Sure, but that doesn't mean the work needs to change so it can be more inclusive

The game doesn't HAVE to do anything to be more inclusive, nor does From Software need to make any changes. There is no imperative here at all.

People who like the aesthetics/combat style/etc of souls but don't like the difficulty might be more likely to enjoy the game if it had an easy mode. Obviously, they aren't entitled to an easy mode (which, by the way, wouldn't affect your experience at all - just like the existence of Cliff's Notes doesn't affect your enjoyment of War and Peace).

You have no right to tell people they wouldn't enjoy an easier experience. Why the hell do you care if they're telling you they would?
 
"Oh boy, another opportunity for me to whine for shit that's either never going to be in game or already in-game in an off-topic manner. I can hardly wait to dredge up 7 year-old oft-rebuttaled demands and get wrecked again! WHEEEEE!!!"
 
I don't know. I'm not a kid with all the time in the world to replay thevsamd shit over and over and then over again 100x until I finally figure out where I need to ho and what I need to go. I quite after 10+ hours of Demon's Souls replaying the same castle section 100 times. Maybe that's not vonsidered "difficulty," however, I don't have the tine and patience I did playing games "difficult" or frustrating games on NES in years past..
 
It's all about the tension. When you pause the game in an unknown area with no bonfire close by, you don't know if you're close to being ambushed or if you're accidentally in an area that has an enemy walking close by. That's why finding a bonfire is so important because you can do all of that stress free knowing that no enemy will harass you.
My point is, if I'm deep into an unfamiliar area with a shitload of souls on me, and someone start banging on my door and I need to go check what the hell is going on, I shouldn't have die in-game just because there isn't a pause button. That's just stupid.
And the reason I feel strongly about it is because it has happened to me, and it was not a fun experience.

*Edit*
If you're human/all ember'd up then alright, you shouldn't be able to pause due to invading and such, I'll give it that. That a good reason to why it wouldn't work. When you're hollowed though, that's another story.

Also, this will prevent people from switching builds/items mid battle which again maintains the tension. If you want to switch something, you'll have to juggle the fight and the pause screen at the same time.
I don't want it to be a menu screen pause, just a freeze everything pause.
 
It really throws into stark relief how easy and coddling gaming had become up to that point. It was exactly the series we needed when we got it, and it will be inspiring game designers for years to come.
 
I don't know. I'm not a kid with all the time in the world to replay thevsamd shit over and over and then over again 100x until I finally figure out where I need to ho and what I need to go. I quite after 10+ hours of Demon's Souls replaying the same castle section 100 times. Maybe that's not vonsidered "difficulty," however, I don't have the tine and patience I did playing games "difficult" or frustrating games on NES in years past..

I originally quit Demon's Souls 12 hours in. At that point I had only beat one boss. I ended up beating the whole game in 38 hours.

Once it "clicks" you won't be stuck as much ever again. There will still be hard moments but nothing compared to the initial struggle.
 
The game doesn't HAVE to do anything to be more inclusive, nor does From Software need to make any changes. There is no imperative here at all.

People who like the aesthetics/combat style/etc of souls but don't like the difficulty might be more likely to enjoy the game if it had an easy mode. Obviously, they aren't entitled to an easy mode (which, by the way, wouldn't affect your experience at all - just like the existence of Cliff's Notes doesn't affect your enjoyment of War and Peace).

You have no right to tell people they wouldn't enjoy an easier experience. Why the hell do you care if they're telling you they would?

It would massively influence the entire player base. Time and resources would be wasted on balancing the game for easier modes. The level designs become oversimplified and easier to traverse because the lowest common denominator can't hack it. They start placing more and more bonfires/checkpoints to accommodate for the easier modes etc. All that time wasted could be put towards creating new interesting levels/enemies.
 
It's all about the tension. When you pause the game in an unknown area with no bonfire close by, you don't know if you're close to being ambushed or if you're accidentally in an area that has an enemy walking close by. That's why finding a bonfire is so important because you can do all of that stress free knowing that no enemy will harass you.

Also, this will prevent people from switching builds/items mid battle which again maintains the tension. If you want to switch something, you'll have to juggle the fight and the pause screen at the same time.

And you won't be in danger at all if you just quit the game.

I hate the phrase "IT'S ALL ABOUT X". It's not "all about" anything in particular. Gameplay is an extremely subjective experience and people get different things out of it and enjoy different aspects of it.
 
No I dont feel like those things need to happen. Though if they did, and I wasn't interested in those, I'd just go on watching the original cut of the movie have have lost nothing.

It doesn't *have* to be more inclusive, I'm a fan of the game as it is. But I'm not going to sit here and pretend that I'd be out something if it were more inclusive. None of this *has* to be anything lol. I just am of the opinion that if more people got to enjoy playing DS1 and got to learn that world and its intricacies with a little less of the tedium and repetition I'd be ok with that.
But those intricacies are lost if the game was easier.
Why do I have to learn the depth and intricacies of combat, learn to attack with precise conviction, if I can just bulldoze my way through an encounter since enemies won't do as much damage?
Why should I feel tense and nervous exploring some unknown area if the enemies aren't as much of a danger?
If I can do all that with less care and concern, then how can the world maintain its oppressive atmosphere where even the early enemies can destroy an unfocused player?
Why should I get in the mindset of desperately searching for safety and clearing an area in this insane world when I need to go through my inventory if I could just pause and be safe in the midst of a life-and-death battle?
Why would the bonfires and lamps feel like a shining oasis in a gore-drenched tempest if getting to those checkpoints weren't that much of a struggle?
And so on
 
I disagree. I shouldn't be in danger in-game just because I need to go and take a shit, or whatever other irl stuff that might need sudden attention.

So let me just fix this:

There we go =D
If the the feeling of needing to take a shit comes on so suddenly for you that one more button press in game is the difference between reaching the toilet and shitting your pants you might have more pressing problems to concentrate on besides whether a games needs a pause button or not.
 
It's all about the tension. When you pause the game in an unknown area with no bonfire close by, you don't know if you're close to being ambushed or if you're accidentally in an area that has an enemy walking close by. That's why finding a bonfire is so important because you can do all of that stress free knowing that no enemy will harass you.

Also, this will prevent people from switching builds/items mid battle which again maintains the tension. If you want to switch something, you'll have to juggle the fight and the pause screen at the same time.

And you won't be in danger at all if you just quit the game.
While this is the most common argument, the biggest counter to this is that you can simply quit to main menu even when you are not close to a bonfire...and be assured you will start from.the exact same location with the game world in the exact same state.

As such I do not understand how including a pause screen will change that since it's just doing the same thing but without the inconvenience of having to load.

You can say that people will abuse pause in boss fights but a simple solution to that is to disable pause in boss fights, much like how the bonfires get disabled during invasion.
 
It would massively influence the entire player base. Time and resources would be wasted on balancing the game for easier modes. The level designs become oversimplified and easier to traverse because the lowest common denominator can't hack it. They start placing more and more bonfires/checkpoints to accommodate for the easier modes etc. All that time wasted could be put towards creating new interesting levels/enemies.

Or they could go the lazy route, make the whole game like normal, and adjust health and damage values for the player and enemies for an easy mode.
 
an easy mode in DS1 is impossible. it would require re-designing levels and replacing enemies. should they get rid of toxic enemies in Blighttown? just remove that whole level, it's too hard to get through without falling off. the Minotaur battle is mostly hard bc of level design. just get rid of that too. an easy mode with half health damage isn't going to get you very far when you get stunlocked by 3 or 4 base-level undead. i guess we should reduce the number of them.

so in that case you aren't "learning the world and its intricacies" because they have been dumbed down for you. it isn't that i as a OG Souls player am missing out on anything, i've already beaten the hard games, nobody's going to take away those experiences. it's that the new Easy Souls is a markedly different experience, one that is not the same.

lol why do people opposed to any change act like the only changes possible are massive ones? Removing entire levels? what? Don't remove the toxic guys, maybe tone down the toxic DPS a touch, or their fire rate, or range at which they engage... tweaks are possible man.

Minotaur fight was hard for me because I was still trying to figure out the timing on rolling, that would be a fairly easy adjustment to make to difficulty that could be fairly granular, changing the number of invincible frames on a roll...

There's endless things that could be tweaked for an easier game without sacrificing everything that makes it Dark Souls.
 
These threads always are filled with posts of people saying there should always be more options and an easy mode wouldn't affect other players experiences, yet time and time again those posts are rebutted with actual points and legitimate questions about how that would work in the case of these games (posts above about toxic enemies and the geometry in blighttown as a quick example) and I have NEVER seen one realistic proposal. If there is one out there, please link me to it because I'd be interested to read it.

It's always just 'FROM should do this'.
 
My point is, if I'm deep into an unfamiliar area with a shitload of souls on me, and someone start banging on my door and I need to go check what the hell is going on, I shouldn't have die in-game just because there isn't a pause button. That's just stupid.
And the reason I feel strongly about it is because it has happened to me, and it was not a fun experience.

*Edit*
If you're human/all ember'd up then alright, you shouldn't be able to pause due to invading and such, I'll give it that. That a good reason to why it wouldn't work. When you're hollowed though, that's another story.


I don't want it to be a menu screen pause, just a freeze everything pause.

You don't have to die. You just have to quit the game. The game autosaves constantly. That way you can do whatever you need to do and jump back in exactly where you were. The problem is that the controller only has a set number of buttons, it'd be difficult to assign one to the "pause everything" button. Plus, imagine if you did that mid fight completely ruining your flow. You'd almost certainly struggle when you return. If you quit, you'd be back just before you encounter the enemy allowing you to calmly get back into the groove.
 
The game doesn't HAVE to do anything to be more inclusive, nor does From Software need to make any changes. There is no imperative here at all.

People who like the aesthetics/combat style/etc of souls but don't like the difficulty might be more likely to enjoy the game if it had an easy mode. Obviously, they aren't entitled to an easy mode (which, by the way, wouldn't affect your experience at all - just like the existence of Cliff's Notes doesn't affect your enjoyment of War and Peace).

You have no right to tell people they wouldn't enjoy an easier experience. Why the hell do you care if they're telling you they would?

We care because we like these games, but most importantly, we want more people to appreciate them. EpicNameBro of the Souls community made a really good point about this when the difficulty debate became a big thing. To paraphrase him, if you go to Burger King, you tell them to make your damn burger the way you like it. But if you go to some super high class restaurant and they have this special dish, you don't demand they take certain things off. You try it, because they might just change your mind about it, you might learn to appreciate something you hadn't before. Different products are intended to be consumed in different ways. Souls games have very specific goals they want to achieve, it's about respecting artistic intent. About appreciating the craft.
 
So basically this is a stealth "it's not hard, just git gud" thread

people say they want a easy mode. this isn't as easy as half damage, the games would need serious alteration, the level design changed, the enemy placement nerfed. the resulting game would be a totally different game. people want an easy DS1, it will have to be a DS1 without Blighttown, without the Minotaur boss. no half damage is going to help you there.

but nobody wants to hear how just saying "Easy Mode" doesn't magically fix everything. if you point out how these games are constructed and that a lot of work and rearranging would need to be done to the point where an easy Souls would be a fundamentally different game, you are met with "git gud" salt.
 
These threads always are filled with posts of people saying there should always be more options and an easy mode wouldn't affect other players experiences, yet time and time again those posts are rebutted with actual points and legitimate questions about how that would work in the case of these games (posts above about toxic enemies and the geometry in blighttown as a quick example) and I have NEVER seen one realistic proposal. If there is one out there, please link me to it because I'd be interested to read it.

It's always just 'FROM should do this'.

Here's one proposal for easy mode that would be easy to implement and wouldn't affect normal mode at all.

If a player dies at a boss, they get the option to restart at the boss rather than having to run back to it. This would solve the major problem people have with souls (you said so in your own post) -- the repetition.
 
It would massively influence the entire player base. Time and resources would be wasted on balancing the game for easier modes. The level designs become oversimplified and easier to traverse because the lowest common denominator can't hack it. They start placing more and more bonfires/checkpoints to accommodate for the easier modes etc. All that time wasted could be put towards creating new interesting levels/enemies.

Or they could do what every other game does and just make you take less damage lol. How much resources would it take to give easy mode a 20% dmg resistance. Hell you could make it a ring . Noob ring . Done

I don't care either way though , as per my previous post it doesn't bother me either way. I don't have the time currently to slog through a ds3 so it's just a no buy for me which is fine.
 
lol why do people opposed to any change act like the only changes possible are massive ones? Removing entire levels? what? Don't remove the toxic guys, maybe tone down the toxic DPS a touch, or their fire rate, or range at which they engage... tweaks are possible man.

what tweaks will you introduce to stop people from falling in Blighttown? maybe guard rails.
 
Actually no, Miyazaki didn't say that. If memory serves, Edge magazine had a story based on a bad translation.

Found a link

http://kotaku.com/5941602/yeah-so-about-that-easy-mode-for-dark-souls-

Hmm I was ready to say I stand corrected, but that sounds a lot like Namdai doing damage control due to the stupid backlash instead (and Miyazaki's statement going against their marketing). I dunno, maybe it was a minstranslation, either way I'm still all for an easy mode.

Either way thanks for the link, I never saw that correction.
 
My point is, if I'm deep into an unfamiliar area with a shitload of souls on me, and someone start banging on my door and I need to go check what the hell is going on, I shouldn't have die in-game just because there isn't a pause button. That's just stupid.

You're right. Just quit out instead. Saves exactly where you are and takes less than a second.

If a player dies at a boss, they get the option to restart at the boss rather than having to run back to it. This would solve the major problem people have with souls (you said so in your own post) -- the repetition.

Repetition is how you learn though.
 
I hate the phrase "IT'S ALL ABOUT X". It's not "all about" anything in particular. Gameplay is an extremely subjective experience and people get different things out of it and enjoy different aspects of it.

It's not subjective. The game director has a vision for his game. You don't decide that. He does. His vision is for the Souls experience to be about the struggle to survive. You completely destroy that vision with an easy mode.

While this is the most common argument, the biggest counter to this is that you can simply quit to main menu even when you are not close to a bonfire...and be assured you will start from.the exact same location with the game world in the exact same state.

As such I do not understand how including a pause screen will change that since it's just doing the same thing but without the inconvenience of having to load.

You can say that people will abuse pause in boss fights but a simple solution to that is to disable pause in boss fights, much like how the bonfires get disabled during invasion.

But when you pause it's because you want to look at your items (read lore) or switch your build because something broke/isn't working for you etc. There is tension there when you have to do that in an unknown area with enemies about. You can't do that at the title screen.

Or they could go the lazy route, make the whole game like normal, and adjust health and damage values for the player and enemies for an easy mode.

Yeah and then people will complain that they keep falling off the map or that the fighting is boring because there's absolutely no tension etc.
 
These threads always are filled with posts of people saying there should always be more options and an easy mode wouldn't affect other players experiences, yet time and time again those posts are rebutted with actual points and legitimate questions about how that would work in the case of these games (posts above about toxic enemies and the geometry in blighttown as a quick example) and I have NEVER seen one realistic proposal. If there is one out there, please link me to it because I'd be interested to read it.

It's always just 'FROM should do this'.
If anyone can explain to me how an "easy mode" that perhaps manipulates variables like player health, enemy health/damage, enemy's rate of attack (such as increasing player's damage resistance, decresing the enemy damage, reducing the frequency of the enemy attacks) to make the player more powerful and enemy weaker.....completely changes the game design to the point that it requires redesign then I'll concede that an optional mode such as that is not possible.
 
I don't mind that people say it's hard. It IS hard. It makes feel good to beat those games when some people cannot or do not want to because of difficulty.

I do take issue with prior who say that Dark Souls are designed for masochists who like eating shit and drinking tears. They are difficult games but they're not impossible. They're not even unreasonably difficult. They just ask a lot of the player, or at least far more than most games. It frustrates me when people are so intimidated they won't even try the games, because of these sorts of misrepresentations.
 
Here's one proposal for easy mode that would be easy to implement and wouldn't affect normal mode at all.

If a player dies at a boss, they get the option to restart at the boss rather than having to run back to it. This would solve the major problem people have with souls (you said so in your own post) -- the repetition.

I think this is a pretty good idea actually, but I would want a penalty too... Like if you restart at the boss your bloodstain is gone so you only get the Souls from the boss itself. As part of an overall 'Easy Mode' I think that's a decent compromise.

I will say if I were FROM and trying to do this, I would probably want to see it segmented into its own thing. Like I'll be selecting "Play Easy Mode" instead of Play Offline or Play Online. And maybe Easy Mode has no online component, and pausing, and different/less enemy placement and so on... So you breeze through the "tutorial" version of the game and then once you know what you're in for play the "real" game.
 
Yeah, the adjusting enemy hp/damage thing wouldn't work at all. Veteran Souls players will generally tell you the numbers don't matter all that much, especially early on. It's the tactics you employ, your knowledge of the game. If you made the game easy via stat adjustment, the game would become a short, boring hack and slash. Without the flair that those games have. It would suck.
 
But when you pause it's because you want to look at your items (read lore) or switch your build because something broke/isn't working for you etc. There is tension there when you have to do that in an unknown area with enemies about. You can't do that at the title screen.
Why do you assume the pause screen will allow you inventory management ?

You can have real time inventory management as well as a pause screen that does nothing more than allowing the player to pause. You press it, the game freezes and it says pause...no other option to manipulate or change.
 
If anyone can explain to me how an "easy mode" that perhaps manipulates variables like player health, enemy health/damage, enemy's rate of attack (such as increasing player's damage resistance, decresing the enemy damage, reducing the frequency of the enemy attacks) to make the player more powerful and enemy weaker.....completely changes the game design to the point that it requires redesign then I'll concede that an optional mode such as that is not possible.

How about the game director saying that the point of the game is to struggle against adversity and get the sense of achievement for overcoming it? How does an 'Easy Mode' build towards that central design pillar?
 
It's not subjective. The game director has a vision for his game. You don't decide that. He does. His vision is for the Souls experience to be about the struggle to survive. You completely destroy that vision with an easy mode. .


I find it kind of hard to believe that a game director who gave us such a great experience would be completely incapable of making it less difficulty/tedious/repetitive without completely destroying it.

How about the game director saying that the point of the game is to struggle against adversity and get the sense of achievement for overcoming it? How does an 'Easy Mode' build towards that central design pillar?

Isn't it kind of a cop out to treat it like such a binary thing?
 
Why do you assume the pause screen will allow you inventory management ?

You can have real time inventory management as well as a pause screen that does nothing more than allowing the player to pause. You press it, the game freezes and it says pause...no other option to manipulate or change.

Are there any free buttons on a controller to do that?
 
You don't have to die. You just have to quit the game. The game autosaves constantly. That way you can do whatever you need to do and jump back in exactly where you were. The problem is that the controller only has a set number of buttons, it'd be difficult to assign one to the "pause everything" button.
Like I said earlier, this isn't going to lead anywhere, I don't see the point of having a roundabout way to just to be able pause the game, people seem to disagree. Fine.

Whether there is room on the controller or not for it I wouldn't know, never thought about it until you mentioned it.

Plus, imagine if you did that mid fight completely ruining your flow. You'd almost certainly struggle when you return. If you quit, you'd be back just before you encounter the enemy allowing you to calmly get back into the groove.
It would fuck my momentum up yes, but that's my problem, and I'll have to deal with that.
I'd rather struggle a bit when resuming the fight rather having to do the whole thing over again.

Just as an example: I was fighting Pontiff Sulyvahn in DS3 and was doing pretty good, and then someone started knocking on my door, enough to let me know that they weren't going away, so I had to suicide to be able to go open the door. That's bullshit as far as I'm concerned.

It doesn't take away any challenge to be able to pause the game, it's there for a reason, to be able to deal without irl stuff so it doesn't fuck with your gameplay.
 
I Came back to see if the difficulty misconception had been dispelled, and...nope. LOL. In a similar thread one poster explained that the game wasn't too difficult for me to beat. Instead I just don't like or love the game enough to beat it. That was funny.

The souls games are great. But, yes, they are too difficult for some. That is fact. It doesn't mean that the games should be easier. It only means that the games are too difficult for some.
 
Okay, let's have a compromise: Rename the current difficulty easy and make another harder one and call it normal.

I wonder how many people would then be okay with the games all of a sudden.
And of course how many would get their pitchforks out.
 
How about the game director saying that the point of the game is to struggle against adversity and get the sense of achievement for overcoming it? How does an 'Easy Mode' build towards that central design pillar?
Because the people playing easy mode can still struggle in easy mode, for them an easy mode the way I explained could be just as difficult as normal mode is for other experienced souls players. It's because it changes absolutely jackshit related to game design and only modifies damage, health, attack frequency.

Think about how much a usual player has to struggle compared to how much a seasoned vet has to struggle...it won't be the same between those two and one will definitely struggle more than the other. So that kind of disparity already exists and it's not uniform for everyone.
 
If anyone can explain to me how an "easy mode" that perhaps manipulates variables like player health, enemy health/damage, enemy's rate of attack (such as increasing player's damage resistance, decresing the enemy damage, reducing the frequency of the enemy attacks) to make the player more powerful and enemy weaker.....completely changes the game design to the point that it requires redesign then I'll concede that an optional mode such as that is not possible.
Enemies here essentially act as skill barriers like a Metroidvania. Consider how in Dark Souls, you had three different areas you could go to from Firelink, but two were well beyond your current stats, skills, and gear due to the nature and difficulty of the enemies, so you were naturally driven towards the easier beginning area. If enemy damage/health and player health were restructured, those natural in-game means of guiding players, so they can level up and learn the game, don't work anymore,
 
From Software games are not hard at all, my 12 year old brother platinum Bloodborne alone without summons, no way is it hard for grown adults, they are just lazy and impatient and can't be bothered to observe and learn the enemy's patterns. Yes it frustrates me when people dismiss the games because they're "too hard"... Git gud.
 
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