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[ironmang]

Not every gamer wants that kind of experience. A lot just want to cruise through the game and not ruin their experience by dying and replaying sections.

I don't mind them but it's not a must-play series for me. Beat Demon's Souls, Bloodborne, and Dark Souls but haven't played 2, 3, or any of the DLC. Just don't have the patience to play through it without referencing a guide to not waste a lot of time with trial and error and using a guide often becomes a chore.

And the no pause thing does annoy me. Sure, I can save and exit whenever I want to take a piss, walk away from my ps3/4, or check my email... OR... they could just allow me to pause and let other people unbind their pause buttons for the super-duper hardcore experience.

 

[Wild Card]

And the no pause thing does annoy me. Sure, I can save and exit whenever I want to take a piss, walk away from my ps3/4, or check my email... OR... they could just allow me to pause and let other people unbind their pause buttons for the super-duper hardcore experience.

This change seems to be purely for the benefit for those that want it changed, you already have an option that caters to you needing to be away from the game for a bit, and lots of people like it as is. You are suggesting that this change be made to convenience you at the expense of others?

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I'm not a game developer, but I fail to see how offering a mode that changes some damage values would be some kind of bankrupcy inducing move. Of all possible development challenges, it seems like this would be easiest of anything.

What? Balancing this kind of thing takes a ton of work. It's not just changing values, it's testing everything, every single factor to make sure the balance isn't broken. Why do you think there are so often calibration patches post-release?

This shit needs tons of tweaking, testing, re-testing. It's a lot of work.

I really hate seeing people speak so ignorantly about game development and I'm not even a game dev (though I am a developer).

Regardless, it's not what you said in your original post. Don't get mad at me that you can't keep what you wrote consistent in your head.

Again, I understood his point just fine. You failed to, but that's no you, not him not being clear enough.

If you want to have a debate over the quality of such a decision, awesome, I'd be happy to. But don't come to me with "But Miyazaki's vision!" if you're just going to turn around and say other creator's visions are shit. Either have a debate on the quality of the design rather than the source of it, or just tolerate the religions of others like we tolerate Miyazakism.

It's not about religion. You're being intellectually dishonest right now.

 

[Veelk]

It's not exclusionary or elitist either, everyone has access to the game and can learn how to play it should they wish to put the time and effort in. If they're not willing to even muster that, why not play a game that they are willing to do that? Add an Easy Mode for those less able when the principle design tenant of the game is to overcome adversity? Why play it?

Because, again, it is possible to enjoy parts of the Souls series without enjoying other parts, even if that part is the central tenant and theme and concept of the series itself. I don't see why this is so hard to believe.

I can think of so many things of which I find value in only small parts, but still go through for those small parts. I read One Piece, which I don't enjoy for the most part, but there are bits and pieces here and there I do, and I read for that. I dislike a significant portion of Steven Universe in it's first 20 episodes, but I stayed for the few episodes I did like (thankfully, it got better as it went along). As far as I'm concerned, everything that Arkham Knight did, Arkham City did better, but I still played through it. I don't like most of what Grant Morrison has to offer, but there is an occasional idea that he has an I think "That's brilliant." I can think of so many experiences where the vast majority of things weren't up to par of what I want, but I stayed for the bits that I did like. And I wish I could have somehow separated the stuff I didn't like so I could focus on the stuff I did like.

It's perfectly possible to find value things while still being against the most of it.

And if we were working under some kind of zero sum game, I'd understand the notion that this is how Souls has to be. But even a half assed easy mode that just lowers damage values would probably draw in a fair amount of players that wouldn't have played otherwise, who would be free to explore the story they like without having to worry about the combat they don't. From would get a big return on investment and the players themselves would be able to enjoy the game more, and the players who want a challenge would still get it. I just don't see who the losing party here. It feels like everyone would get what they want out of the product. Those feel like good reasons to invest in something like that.

In opposition....I can't see any other reason that most offer except the personal desire to not have people join the community unless they join it the way they did, through combat that tehy enjoy even if others might not.

What? Balancing this kind of thing takes a ton of work. It's not just changing values, it's testing everything, every single factor to make sure the balance isn't broken. Why do you think there are so often calibration patches post-release?

This shit needs tons of tweaking, testing, re-testing. It's a lot of work.

I really hate seeing people speak so ignorantly about game development and I'm not even a game dev (though I am a developer).

Sure, but their not developing new assets, changing enemy placements or anything. They are just tweaking values. It's still work, but I don't see it being as such a resource drain that it's impossible to do. And, again, this is their job. It's what their paid for. I don't see why I should feel bad about them having to work to make an easy mode.

It's not about religion. You're being intellectually dishonest right now.

What I was being is facetious and flippant. But if the only defense you have for a decision is that a person you like made it, or that a person who is really popular made it, then it's just an appeal to authority. You're not actually defending the decision, you're just trying to nullify the criticism by an expression of faith.

I have very little patience for creator vision worship, in Dark Souls, or any other game, or any other artistic medium. Defend design decisions on their merit, not their source.

Maybe we'll come to terms about how this widely enjoyed game series needs to be tailored to his requirements so that people can amble around and appreciate the assets.

You know what the funny thing is? I'm personally fine with the game difficulty. As I stated, I make my way using the resources the game already offers me, and that's enough for me. I'm not even actually asking about an easy mode, because I stated when I started this discussion that I believe the game doesn't actually need it.

It's the unwelcoming, aggressive, insulting, exclusionary, and dismissive parts of it's community that I find objectionable.

 

[ironmang]

This change seems to be purely for the benefit for those that want it changed, you already have an option that caters to you needing to be away from the game for a bit, and lots of people like it as is. You are suggesting that this change be made to convenience you at the expense of others?

How is it at the expense of others? If they added a pause feature would you be forced to press it?

 

[Jombie]

It's overstated, but there are some aspects that are "hard just cause" to me, i.e., Capra, perfect enemy tracking / hitbox porn and enemies with annoyingly long grab attacks. You can say that you just have to adjust and be aware but I wouldn't say that Souls is completely fair. However, it's a shame that the difficulty is the sole factor of discussion.

 

[Skii]

I'm not a game developer, but I fail to see how offering a mode that changes some damage values would be some kind of bankrupcy inducing move. Of all possible development challenges, it seems like this would be easiest of anything.

Regardless, it's not what you said in your original post. Don't get mad at me that you can't keep what you wrote consistent in your head.

My original post and the subsequent one aren't at odds with each other. They complement and reaffirm my original point. Why waste time and resources to abandon your vision and philosophy just to cater to people who clearly aren't even the audience of this game? You will never ever feel the tension or the struggle to survive with an easy mode. I can guarantee you that.

And I know you know this. You're just being deliberately obtuse just so you can keep debating over something that's been clarified like 20 times in this thread.

Yeah, see above, you can't go both ways on this. Either creator's vision, regardless of quality, is sacred or it's not. Whenever you make the argument "Well, they're good at what they do!", you're indirectly saying who it comes from isn't the relevant variable, it's the quality of the decision.

If you want to have a debate over the quality of such a decision, awesome, I'd be happy to. But don't come to me with "But Miyazaki's vision!" if you're just going to turn around and say other creator's visions are shit. Either have a debate on the quality of the design rather than the source of it, or just tolerate the religions of others like we tolerate Miyazakism.

Okay, let's entertain the idea that all creative vision holds the same weight. So why again do you feel like you have the right to demand the creator completely abandon their vision to cater for you?

 

[The Wheel of Fortune]

I don't mind it. It doesn't affect my enjoyment of the games in any way.

In fact, a friend just added me on PSN last week and was amazed at how I "managed" to get the plat and 100% on both Dark Souls 2 and Bloodborne. "Those games are pretty hard, aren't they? You must be pretty good". It doesn't matter how many times you say "They're actually not that hard", some people are convinced that they're some invincible games that only hardcore gamers can complete.

 

[Veelk]

My original post and the subsequent one aren't at odds with each other. They complement and reaffirm my original point. Why waste time and resources to abandon your vision and philosophy just to cater to people who clearly aren't even the audience of this game? You will never ever feel the tension or the struggle to survive with an easy mode. I can guarantee you that.

I believe that. That's the main crux of this argument here. And it's so circular. Why shouldn't From offer a path for those people to enjoy their games? Because their not a part of their audience! Why aren't those people a part of From's audience? Because they don't offer them a path to enjoy their games! So shouldn't From offer a path for those people to enjoy their games....

Yes, they're not a part of the audience. The question is this: Why shouldn't they be, if it's at little to no cost to the audience they have. And after several hours of this debate, I just don't see an answer here. It all boils down to "That's just not how the game is", as if it's some immutable thing. As if you'd lose something if more people enjoyed it in a different way than you do.

Okay, let's entertain the idea that all creative vision holds the same weight. So why again do you feel like you have the right to demand the creator completely abandon their vision to cater for you?

All creator's visions do hold the same weight, matter in question is how much value you give that weight. For me, it's zero. Design decisions are evaluated on merit.

As for demands, I'd like to point out that you have the right to demand anything from anyone any reason, and they have a right to refuse you. It's a strange thing, I feel, to have to defend. But the right to demand anything from anyone for any reason is a right I feel everyone should exercise here and there, especially if they can back up why that demand is sensible and beneficial, and maybe phrase the demand in something more courteous. If I wanted to demand Miyazaki change something, I'd fly on a plane to japan and ask him out to lunch to discuss things, not sit around and complain to a message board he'll never read. And I'm pointing this out, if only to point out the absurdity of framing this as me trying to demand that Miyazaki change something.

What I'm actually doing here is pointing out how the demand for an easy mode is just a reasonable one to make because it will open the path for players who are not interested in being challenged without inhibiting the players who are. And defenses like creator worship are not valid ones to make. I'm not saying it should happen. Just that it's more than defensible and people shouldn't act like it will ruin the game or some dramatic shit like they have been, because this attitude, it just really makes the Souls community look bad.

 

[rackham]

I don't think anyone is entitled to an easier time. From Soft even goes so far as to gimp their multiplayer to match their lore.

That's what people like about the games. I don't agree to people asking From Soft to changing anything about how they feel the game should be when it comes to the overall experience. That experience INCLUDES the fact that other people played through the same obstacles you did.

 

[Defuser]

If the game is not for you then it's not for you. Why do some people stubbornly insist on changing difficulty which goes against From's philosophy of making a challenging game? We already seen other games trying to cater to casuals and it turn out had some consequences. I don't trust From knowing how to dumb down their game,they can't even get their weapon balancing right.

"But but but more people will buy their game!"

The series is already doing well selling millions and millions having 3 games and 2 indirect games not to mention strong of mouth. Apparently difficulty isn't a issue here.

"But but but more people will appreciate the assets!"

You mean those 'more' people who will trade in the game immediately after they beat it or made a one line comment about it and go along their merry way forgetting. This ain't a renaissance painting this is a video game. Good challenging gameplay and atmosphere is good enough to enjoy and From excels in that which is why people keeps coming back for it. People appreciating assets is such a 0.1% minority.

If you still want easier mode of souls then sure you have can have it but not with the souls brand. Make a new IP e.g bloodborne and slap your less difficult mode but don't touch the souls brand.

 

[Spyder_Monkey]

I blame the marketing and some of the fans.

 

[Wild Card]

How is it at the expense of others? If they added a pause feature would you be forced to press it?

Well like I said the option is there already for those who need to leave the game, you say that option is too much and they should just put a pause button in there, and then suggest others that already enjoy the system as it should tweak some settings to get the experince they want. Bascially your saying you don't want to do the effort(however little) to exit the game if you need to do something, but you suggest passing of that burden(again very little) off on those who like the standard way to play. I dunno, perhaps a bit of irony.

 

[gblues]

You said the only people who enjoy these games are "masochists". That would suggest they are very niche games, high sales prove that they are not.

Sorry. No, I wasn't trying to imply nicheness. I was talking more about the literal definition of masochism involving enjoying pain (and hyperbolizing the level of pain inflicted by the Souls games). But high sales doesn't capture how many people enjoyed it, only how many people were convinced by word-of-mouth and marketing to give it a try.

Yes, because they are bad ideas that would go against the design philosophy of these games that many, myself include, appreciate about it.

Sorry, but I disagree. Well, I'll give you the easy mode, although being a separate mode means you can not use it and have your preferred experience. But the others? They're very small quality-of-life improvements.

And this--THIS--is exactly what I'm talking about entirely. Fans give up no ground to maybe help other people appreciate the game.

Every single one of those things sound awful and would effectively ruin the games for me. I'm very glad you are not in charge of making these games.

It's really hard to take you seriously when the ability to pause the game is game-ruining to you. Now who's being hyperbolic?

Those bullet items are all brainstorm ideas for a hypothetical easy mode, which would be optional, so they wouldn't affect you. Maybe it's not for you to decide what "effectively ruins" something?

These games are not for you.

I bought 'em, I played 'em (for non-trivial amount of time per game--well, except Bloodborne), I get to have my own opinions and present my own criticisms. It's not for you to say that the game isn't for me.

Maybe you mean that the game is beyond my skills and.. well, you're probably right there.

But the point being expressed is, why waste dev resources on something that would probably not improve the overall package, just to please a few whiners?

Inflammatory "whiners" label notwithstanding, this is a good point. And, I think, comes close to the true reason why there isn't already an easy mode of some kind.

However, it is not known whether or not adding an easy mode would increase sales of the game. That's something that the project manager would have to find an answer for. It's probably unknowable, and the only way to find out is to do it for one game and see how that impacts the game's sales.

But, if the open hostility of fans towards difficulty mitigation is the only thing PM sees, it's no wonder they would decide against even attempting an easy mode.

 

[Dion Blaster]

These games are definitely among the hardest I've played. I don't think that's the sole design philosophy or anything but they do make a point to be very unforgiving/repetitive.

I almost forgot you can't pause the game. That is pretty stupid if you're playing offline.

 

[Mik317]

These games are definitely among the hardest I've played. I don't think that's the sole design philosophy or anything but they do make a point to be very unforgiving/repetitive.

I almost forgot you can't pause the game. That is pretty stupid if you're playing offline.

If you are playing offline, go find a safe place and chill? Can't speak for all of them but most of them even have a hub world in which nothing bad can happen to you, no? And if you are offline, as long as you are in a safe zone, you should be fine.

I didn't even know this was a thing until recently. Never even noticed the lack of pausing.

 

[Wild Card]

But high sales doesn't capture how many people enjoyed it, only how many people were convinced by word-of-mouth and marketing to give it a try.

It's been several games now, so I don't think people are falling for the same trick over and over is the reason their sales are good

Sorry, but I disagree. Well, I'll give you the easy mode, although being a separate mode means you can not use it and have your preferred experience. But the others? They're very small quality-of-life improvements.

Being a series that was not originally designed with an easy mode in mind, trying to create one and saying this mode is completely separate from another is incorrect, in trying to design a game that can accommodate multiple difficulty levels, that will surely effect how the game overall is designed, so I don't believe designing a game with a difficulty mode in mind has no effect on the standard mode. As an example, and I won't rant Dead Rising's as of late, and looking to continue onto 4 have been getting away from the original timer based gameplay of the original, and leaning into more open world, do whatever, ultimately powerful weapons to make yourself god design, and many fans of the original were quite displeased, in order to appease them the developers slapped on a timer to their game, but it was so generous it might as well not even existed, meaning either the developers didn't understand why people wanted a timer, or did it just to have an excuse as say they tried without any effort into making it good. In order to appeal to a wider audience they game they made at a design level has changed drastically and for me, has made it a worse experience, and that's speaking as a fan of the original who was left behind as they chased after greener pastures.

Spoiler

I may have ended up ranting a little.

And this--THIS--is exactly what I'm talking about entirely. Fans give up no ground to maybe help other people appreciate the game.

I am glad fans are so vehemently opposed to these changes, making the game easier in order to appeal to those not of your base has quite often turned out to be the best way to alienate your base, and there's certainly no guarantee of success in that chase and you may have no one to come home back to. Dark Souls is a special franchise to a lot of people and I would hate to see that ruined.

 

[ironmang]

Well like I said the option is there already for those who need to leave the game, you say that option is too much and they should just put a pause button in there, and then suggest others that already enjoy the system as it should tweak some settings to get the experince they want. Bascially your saying you don't want to do the effort(however little) to exit the game if you need to do something, but you suggest passing of that burden(again very little) off on those who like the standard way to play. I dunno, perhaps a bit of irony.

They could just add a pause button, no super advanced tweaking (aka unbind) required lol. Then the purists or whatever can just not press the pause button and have the same exact experience.

Yes, I'm saying that in modern times where we're flooded with good games, I'm pickier and will often not buy a game new if at all because it has a feature that annoys me. I'm used to pause buttons. It doesn't change the difficulty at all for me, just adds a bunch of loading screens that don't need to be there.

No irony at all, you're just reallllllllly grasping.

 

[Wild Card]

They could just add a pause button, no super advanced tweaking (aka unbind) required lol. Then the purists or whatever can just not press the pause button and have the same exact experience.

Yes, I'm saying that in modern times where we're flooded with good games, I'm pickier and will often not buy a game new if at all because it has a feature that annoys me. I'm used to pause buttons. It doesn't change the difficulty at all for me, just adds a bunch of loading screens that don't need to be there.

No irony at all, you're just reallllllllly grasping.

You'll have to explain it to me, I don't particularly care if you buy these games or not (there's a lot of people who don't!) on whatever grounds you'd like to, but that essentially what you asked for, I'm just explaining the natural consequence of that change. Yeah they could do a UI refresh cuz start is MENU and select is EMOTES, but that seems unnecessary.

 

[KZXcellent]

Never really bothered me. The posts I've seen all over the Internet that go "Well, all the souls games are easy" are pretty awful though.

 

[Dremorak]

I've enjoyed Monster Hunter a lot more than Souls games in general. To me MH combat is much more interesting, and just as satisfying. I really liked DS1, but started DS2 somewhat recently and it just felt too similar. Ended up just playing more monster hunter

 

[ironmang]

You'll have to explain it to me, I don't particularly care if you buy these games or not (there's a lot of people who don't!) on whatever grounds you'd like to, but that essentially what you asked for, I'm just explaining the natural consequence of that change. Yeah they could do a UI refresh cuz start is MENU and select is EMOTES, but that seems unnecessary.

I asked for an option that's available in almost every other game and isn't required for everybody to use if they don't want to. How is this idea foreign to you?

I didn't say my initial, 2 second thought out idea was the only way it had to be. They could just add a setting that allows "start" to pause the game and leave it unchecked by default as to not burden you with pressing x and direction buttons a few times. It would only work when offline. Boom, thought about that one for about 20 seconds.

 

[NathanS]

Same could be said about more diversity in games, "Why are people worried about racism in games when they are selling well?"...

This isnt about the game doubling its sales adding an easy mode. A simple damage modifier would mean more people can play and finish the game and I don't understand how can anyone be against it unless you are extremely worried about the "street cred" of playing Dark Souls.

Just to be clear, I have played every dark souls and I don't think the games are that hard, you just need patience, but some people don't have the time.



Lots of people dont understand the system or they cant get to the point to summon. Also some people want the game to be easier, that doesnt mean they want to summon an expert player to kill the boss for them since they probably still want to play the game.

Should "The Sound and the Fury" come with version that's written in linear manner with an nice conventional third person narrator and simplified sentences so people can say "I totally read 'The Sound and the Fury!'" Despite those changes making it a completely different work then the one Faulkner wrote?

Some works demeaned higher levels of involvement and investment from their audiences. Trying to strip that away eliminates the heart of the work. Yes that means people who want to just blast through a novel, movie, game what ever and decide putting that time in isn't worth it to them won't be able to truly come to terms or enjoy works that ask for that time. But that's the trade off not every work has to be for everyone, and in a time when there are at least as many games that ask for a low amount of investment exists complaining that some games don't just seems odd.

I mean are games art? If so why do we get pissed that some of the works being made are aimed at people who want to engage with them more? Isn't that how it works in evey other medium? Books that made for experienced readers who can understand more complex sentences and subtle illusions to older works exist. Are the people who write those "gate keeping" because damn it people who only like airport thrillers can't get into them those damn elitist books?

 

[Cipher Peon]

It doesn't bother me as much as it makes me think about the ways that the Souls series can do to accommodate new players and foster a greater sense of easily apparent accessibility.

 

[Ralemont]

Should "The Sound and the Fury" come with version that's written in linear manner with an nice conventional third person narrator and simplified sentences so people can say "I totally read 'The Sound and the Fury!'" Despite those changes making it a completely different work then the one Faulkner wrote?

Some works demeaned higher levels of involvement and investment from their audiences. Trying to strip that away eliminates the heart of the work. Yes that means people who want to just blast through a novel, movie, game what ever and decide putting that time in isn't worth it to them won't be able to truly come to terms or enjoy works that ask for that time. But that's the trade off not every work has to be for everyone, and in a time when there are at least as many games that ask for a low amount of investment exists complaining that some games don't just seems odd.

I mean are games art? If so why do we get pissed that some of the works being made are aimed at people who want to engage with them more? Isn't that how it works in evey other medium? Books that made for experienced readers who can understand more complex sentences and subtle illusions to older works exist. Are the people who write those "gate keeping" because damn it people who only like airport thrillers can't get into them those damn elitist books?

Games are not art because they are hard or easy. Neither is literature. If we carry your demands to their logical conclusion then no one should read translated literature. Because art, right? Gotta do the original language!

In any case, if your argument is that difficulty is the heart of Souls games, then that doesn't have anything to do with art, no. That has to do with it being a game in a way that's specific to games and doesn't get protected by the art blanket, because videogame difficulty is based on winning or losing. Now, if you wanted to make an argument about the difficulty of piecing together the Souls story? Sure, that's art.

 

[Yeezus]

Things worth doing usually are--hard, that is.

 

[M0nochromatic]

Only a handful of bosses in the series really push the players hand eye coordination ability. It never comes close to something like Devil May Cry in terms of reflexes.

Most encounters revolve around your gear and the environment. Are you running into a pack instead of pulling them with a ranged weapon? That's gonna be tough without some form of crowd control. Are you trying to trade hits against a guy with a hammer with your rapier? It's not the best idea. You shouldn't trade, you should block it/ roll in. Are you face tanking instead of using a shield? It's better to block then to get hit, even with heavy armor.

It's systems take about thirty minutes to an hour to become familiar with, but after that, all it takes is the player taking time to think about how to approach the situations they walk into.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Sure, but their not developing new assets, changing enemy placements or anything. They are just tweaking values. It's still work, but I don't see it being as such a resource drain that it's impossible to do. And, again, this is their job. It's what their paid for. I don't see why I should feel bad about them having to work to make an easy mode.

Because for the last time, all that time could be spent on actually improving the game.

What I was being is facetious and flippant. But if the only defense you have for a decision is that a person you like made it, or that a person who is really popular made it, then it's just an appeal to authority. You're not actually defending the decision, you're just trying to nullify the criticism by an expression of faith.

I have very little patience for creator vision worship, in Dark Souls, or any other game, or any other artistic medium. Defend design decisions on their merit, not their source.

You're being ridiculous. People defend Miyazaki's vision because it has proven itself to generate amazing games that people love, and compromising that vision would ultimately harm the quality of the games. It has nothing to do with blind faith or creator worship. People who loved Demon's Souls had never heard of Miyazaki before, you know why? Because it was his first time directing a game ever. But people loved his vision of gaming and wanted more and that is how Dark Souls became so beloved.

Sorry. No, I wasn't trying to imply nicheness. I was talking more about the literal definition of masochism involving enjoying pain (and hyperbolizing the level of pain inflicted by the Souls games). But high sales doesn't capture how many people enjoyed it, only how many people were convinced by word-of-mouth and marketing to give it a try.

That's even sillier, because people enjoy these games for their great content, not because they "enjoy pain". I don't enjoy painful, unfun games. Masochism has nothing to do with why I love these games and I'm confident I can say the same about most of the fanbase. Stop projecting your weirdness onto us...

Sorry, but I disagree. Well, I'll give you the easy mode, although being a separate mode means you can not use it and have your preferred experience. But the others? They're very small quality-of-life improvements.

And this--THIS--is exactly what I'm talking about entirely. Fans give up no ground to maybe help other people appreciate the game.

No, they really are not QoL improvements at all. They are things that would compromise the quality of the game. By a lot, even. Maybe not the pause button (though you'd likely need to sacrifice a button mapping, and for what, when all you can do is save&quit) but everything else, absolutely. They are all things that would drastically reduce the challenge. Fuck that noise.

Those bullet items are all brainstorm ideas for a hypothetical easy mode, which would be optional, so they wouldn't affect you. Maybe it's not for you to decide what "effectively ruins" something?

Fortunately the developers agree with me so I guess in a way, it is!

But, if the open hostility of fans towards difficulty mitigation is the only thing PM sees, it's no wonder they would decide against even attempting an easy mode.

Good.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

Realistically speaking, what would an easy mode be for Souls?

1) lower enemy damage
2) no soul lost
3) quick save or checkpoints
4) less enemy placement
5) less enemy movesets

That's about it right?

 

[Novocaine]

Realistically speaking, what would an easy mode be for Souls?

1) lower enemy damage
2) no soul lost
3) quick save or checkpoints
4) less enemy placement
5) less enemy movesets

That's about it right?

No online because invaders are too scary.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

No online because invaders are too scary.

You can already do that in DS3, turn off online.

Oh I suppose some navigation markers.

Now there's a reason I bring this up and that is, let's say hypothetically speaking, a developer recreated a souls game and provided that easy mode option to players. What would a person who plays the game in easy mode 'lose' out in?

 

[Valkerionseven]

It annoys me to see people say its difficult but only because its supposed to be.

It's difficult because like others said, its asking you to pay attention, play carefully, and learn from the mistakes you make. That's all. Outside that the enemies and areas you encounter have very few tricks or gimmicks compared to some games, they just once again punish you severely for making a mistake around them. The game simply asks the player after, try that again knowing what you know now.

That's not actually very difficult to me.

But saying its the hardest series out there is intimidating to a lot of people and keeping them off trying it.

 

[Veelk]

Because for the last time, all that time could be spent on actually improving the game.

Exactly, and a easy mode would be an improvement to many people. It's a worthy investment, and one that I seriously doubt is as resource heavy as your making it out to be. The only way your argument is valid here is you believe anything, no matter how menial like is worth spending time on more than an easy mode, but at that point you're against having an easy mode at all.

Justifying the resources spent to make an easy mode isn't difficult so long as you believe an easy mode is worth it. If not, then, oh, look at this texture that 96% of the population will never see, better polish it up!

You're being ridiculous. People defend Miyazaki's vision because it has proven itself to generate amazing games that people love, and compromising that vision would ultimately harm the quality of the games. It has nothing to do with blind faith or creator worship. People who loved Demon's Souls had never heard of Miyazaki before, you know why? Because it was his first time directing a game ever. But people loved his vision of gaming and wanted more and that is how Dark Souls became so beloved.

I don't think I ever said that the souls games weren't amazing. But their amazing because they come together as incredible experiences. The source where they come from isn't relevant except in a historical sense. The souls games are good because they are designed in a particular way, not because they come from a particular designer.

And as amazing as they are, they aren't perfect and there are several valid arguments for why they would benefit an easy mode, various other changes of varying significance.

If you're defense is "An easy mode would be detrimental to the game because of these reasons", okay, I can work with you on that, we can have a debate about that because we're both striving to capture a particular experience and we can discuss why it that is the best possible experience to have. Because that's when we are talking about the actual product, the actual thing we are experiencing.

But if you're defense is "An easy mode would be detrimental because it is not in Miyazaki's vision", then that IS just creator worship, because it's just an appeal to authority. It's not a reason why it improves the game, it's not a reflection of your personal views or experiences on the game, it's not even a prediction of how the game would work if it deviated from that vision. It's just a statement that it wouldn't be what it is now carried with the implication that it would be wrong for it to be something else, for no other reason that a higher authority deemed it to be that way.

There are many great pieces of art, but the value is in the art itself, not it's source, and it is based on the needs and wants of the art itself that we should strive to improve it, not the creator's. Anything else is just a willful surrender of your own critical faculties.

But, if the open hostility of fans towards difficulty mitigation is the only thing PM sees, it's no wonder they would decide against even attempting an easy mode.

Good.

Honestly, Morigan? I really like the Souls games, but if this is the kind of behavior it breeds, it needs an easy mode, in addition to all the other arguments, just to quell attitudes like yours.

I get snarky and flippant sometimes, but you've insulted, demeaned and sneered at posters because they've expressed a desire to play a game specifically WITHOUT rocking the boat for players like you. It's not that you even refute many of these, just dismiss them on the flimsy basis that they would make the game marginally easier, not out of actual gameplay challenges, but just basic conveniences. But even those are an unspeakable sins that would ruin the games for you, apparently (even though the game did variations of many of those in isolated incidences anyway, not to mention that the games have, from what I see, been a slow but steady march to allowing the player conveniences as the series goes on?). And why are you being so hostile and abrasive? So you don't have to play what is, as of now, a completely hypothetical game created from the minds of forum posters that are only looking to join the fandom? So people who don't meet some imaginary set of standards can stay out of your treehouse because "no scrubs allowed"? It's "Good" that you are hostile to other players who are just trying to share their thoughts and opinions so you can keep your precious away from others?

You want to be passionate about your love of the game, fine. But when it gets to the point that your using the game as justification to be a jackass to others, then that's when it's clear you need to have it taken away.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

TIL I learned I've insulted and demeaned people for not wanting my favourite games to be dumbed down.

Incredible. And they say Souls fans are the jerks. xD

 

[Veelk]

It's intellectually dishonest to claim that there is no way whatsoever to create an easy mode without keeping your challenging experience intact. Some of the hardest games on the market come with an easy mode.

I would have no problems whatsoever if you just wanted it to be clear that a dimension of the game existed just so you can keep playing the kind of game Souls began as. But that's not what you're doing, your dismissing and aggressively shutting down ANY possible argument without trying to reach any kind of common ground whatsoever, and then claiming how glad you are the players don't get to experience the game in a way they can enjoy. And if players were trying to make it the default mode that everyone had to play, that'd be another thing, but several people have gone out of their way to say they're not trying to take the challenge out of Souls, just find a space in the game where it isn't there that they can make a home in. But because you found a way to enjoy the games with the difficulty, that's a reason to forbid others from finding a different path?

There is a middle ground that can be found where all parties can enjoy the games as they are, but your basic thesis just seems to comes down to "Fuck you, got mine", and if people have to be hostile to others to make sure it stays that way, so be it? Yeah, that's not an attitude I can endorse.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

I've played every souls game besides demon and love the series. And I wouldn't give a flying fuck about them making it somehow more accepting to newbies with a separate difficulty mode specifically for that audience if they were so inclined to do it. But they haven't yet so I guess they see it as effort not worth investing in and are fine with sales as they are.

If somehow they made a new game and showed the separate difficulty I'm sure many would be bending backwards over how it defeats the philosophy behind the game or something but hey that's that.

I've lessened my position on this argument from staunch supporter of easy mode simply because the argument goes in circles and nobody is going to really change minds about it because the argument of 'but it wouldn't affect you' doesn't negate the counter.

I'll keep buying the games as is.

 

[KSai]

Dark Souls 3 is a damn pain in the ass (playing as a mage without a Kite Shield or good weapons and upgrades). I've given up on fighting and just run past a lot of the enemies. The difficulty is not a misconception. The game is absolutely unforgiving without guidance, and I have no problem if people want to pass on it because it is tough.

 

[Hollywood Hitman]

Not sure why it's being skipped over but as I said most of those games don't have a shared world between everyone. You can't have summons if some are on easy mode, some are on hard etc... Having easy mode players only summon easy mode players and hard only summon hard splits that community a good deal. Having everyone in the same ballpark is the vision and how you make a game cohesive for everyone.

Im not trying to doubt anyone who says they're a fan and wants easy mode but it's hard to understand anyone who understands the soul series wanting an easy mode after they've experienced the way these games start off a little rough but get easier as you go on

 

[gbus]

I'm a new soulsborne "fan". Always was interested in them but was apprehensive because of their difficulty. I consider myself an average gamer and thought they would be to hard. That changed when I tried the nioh beta. After the beta I bought Bloodborne and absolutely loved it. In my top 5 ever. I love that it is their vision take our leave it: no checkpoints, markers, difficulty levels, ... I made me realize I miss getting to know my way around a level, that feeling of elation when beating a boss or finding shortcut, ...

If there had been an easy mode I would have probably picked that and that would have diluted my experience. They are not that hard. I reckon that if there is checkpoint system they would be relatively simple. Probably not harder than say something like god of war except for a few boss fights (I'm looking at you orphan of kos). So yeah it annoys me now that are people clamoring or an easy mode.

 

[Hollywood Hitman]

I'm a new soulsborne "fan". Always was interested in them but was apprehensive because of their difficulty. I consider myself an average gamer and thought they would be to hard. That changed when I tried the nioh beta. After the beta I bought Bloodborne and absolutely loved it. In my top 5 ever. I love that it is their vision take our leave it: no checkpoints, markers, difficulty levels, ... I made me realize I miss getting to know my way around a level, that feeling of elation when beating a boss or finding shortcut, ...

If there had been an easy mode I would have probably picked that and that would have diluted my experience. They are not that hard. I reckon that if there is ckeckpoitn system they would be relatively simple. Probably not harder than say something like god of war except for a few boss fights (I'm looking at you orphan of kos). So yeah it annoys me know that are people clammering for an easy mode.

Great post, and the type that I'm referring to in that it doesn't take a gaming juggernaut to play them. Although I gotta say Nioh I'm surprised pulled you in as that game felt a little more forced in the cheap department lol I got my mark in beta but I still had a few issues.. However yea, glad you found the love in these games and I just love seeing more enjoy them

 

[chillybright]

No. A game isn't hard just because there are some mild barriers to success.

lmao did you seriously reply with that AFTER reading my post?

Your "mild barriers" are exactly the reasons why these games are considered hard by average gamers.

And no it is not easy to "just add" an easy mode in souls games. The first playthrough IS the easiest mode already. Harder difficulties are NG+ and beyond.

 

[thefil]

Might get piled on for this, but I don't think accessibility needs to be a core value for every game. Most games probably should aim to be accessible and work somewhat towards meeting the player. But in some cases, there is value in having an experience in which you are forced to meet the game.

I'm not against an easy mode being added. I do doubt that people playing in easy mode would get much out of the game. Like if a Souls game had waypoints and fights where you didn't have to learn, what would really be the value of the experience for those people? Whatever it is, it would be utterly orthogonal to the current experience. I wonder if anyone would even like it!

Furthermore, I think Dark Souls (except maybe Bloodborne/3) is weirdly more accessible than many other challenging games. The reflex and execution demands are quite low - you probably only need to make one input a second or so. It's really more about approaching situations and decision making, which I think is a skill everyone can learn. I definitely bounced off Demon's a few times before understanding how to play, and once again, there was a value (for me) in finally meeting the game in that place that is so different to where I meet other games.

Anyways, interesting discussion in here. I'm enjoying it.

 

[DeathPeak]

My investment in Dark Souls isn't as deep as most here. To me, the game/series is difficult. Wouldn't say it's a misconception. I've played 1, BB, and currently playing 3. I've died plenty of times, but I'm still making my way through. Just because something requires adjustment, focus and learning, that doesn't mean it's not difficult. Study for a test enough and it'll be easier, but that doesn't make the content less difficult. Cracking a walnut can be difficult too, but I'm sure someone with a nutcracker finds it to be a cinch.

 

[Murkas]

This place again?

 

[JimmyRustler]

Souls games are basically what every single game was like before "experiences" took over.

Perfect summary basically.

Seems we forgot that it used to be pretty common that you first had to learn how to play a game before you could actually beat it. Some were more unfair with this than the others but the point of games was always to learn the mechanics so you could beat it.

None of this is really required for todays games, which is a real shame.

But I can understand why so many devs are doing this seeing how little people actually complete games. No wonder they put presentation before difficulty.

 

[B-Genius]

It's a difficult series, that's a fact. It only frustrates me when the "perceived difficulty" is used as an attack against the gameplay/design, or when ham-fisted marketing use it and end up giving a warped impression.

Some people naturally enjoy more difficult/punishing/challenging games, and Souls hits a certain sweet spot in this regard. But they aren't designed to be difficult for the sake of it. They are designed to be intrinsically rewarding, and often satisfaction lies in overcoming a difficult (or initially, even seemingly impossible) obstacle.

 

[takriel]

If your catchphrase is "Prepare to Die", no wonder will people think that the game is brutal and hard.

But I agree, it is incredibly fair most of the time and really depends on how well you mastered the game's controls.

 

[Screaming Meat]

Because, again, it is possible to enjoy parts of the Souls series without enjoying other parts, even if that part is the central tenant and theme and concept of the series itself. I don't see why this is so hard to believe.

I get it. What I find difficult to get my head around is, rather than put up with said parts (as you detail you do in other mediums) or move on to something closer to your liking, you seem to think the artist/developer has some kind obligation to change them to suit you, at the expense of the core philosophy of the work and even when the game is already profitable and critically acclaimed.

I also can't get my head around your cavalier attitude towards changing the core design pillar and expecting it to still be the same game. Games are a holistic experience, each part effecting another to varying degrees. Can't you simply appreciate the unique little gem of a series we do have, rather than demand utilitarian changes so it becomes the one you want?

Your position makes me think of someone listening to a 12 tone piece by Schopenhauer, proclaiming that - though they like the sound of the piano - it's essentially unlistenable, then demanding the composer transpose it into a major key.

From would get a big return on investment and the players themselves would be able to enjoy the game more, and the players who want a challenge would still get it. I just don't see who the losing party here. It feels like everyone would get what they want out of the product. Those feel like good reasons to invest in something like that.

The series is profitable and critically acclaimed as is, so I'm not sure there are any serious gains to be made on that front. Part of that critical acclaim is due to, for want of a better word, the series' integrity. In a gaming landscape of 'Press X for Awesome' and focus groups, a genuine challenge is something to be cherished. An 'Easy Mode' at this point would undermine the core experience Myazaki wanted to impart and people resonated with.

It's the unwelcoming, aggressive, insulting, exclusionary, and dismissive parts of it's community that I find objectionable.

How is changing the game a solution to this...?

Those same kinds of people can be found in pretty much every gaming community. Go into any Souls LTTP or tips thread, and you'll find many more examples of the exact opposite.

People get defensive about Souls when posters write long screeds that ask for fundamental changes that are against the character of the game, rather than trying to engage with it on its own terms. They get like this because it has a unique identity and they want to preserve it. They get like this because there are literally thousands of other games out there vying for attention and bending over backwards to accomodate as many people as possible, but this is the one everyone and his mother wants to fundamentally alter to suit them specifically. It is tiresome.

 

[xealo]

I wouldn't say it's a misconception so much as just a bit overblown.

These games are harder than most of what you'll find in other AAA releases, just not to the point where it becomes impossible for the average gamer if they just put some effort into it.

 

[fast_taker]

dark souls series is not as tough as people think it is.

To be honest, the first Dark Souls game is the most punishing and it certainly is tougher that the other 2 because it lacks fast traveling until the last few hours of the game.

In any case the truth is that DS series is the most rewarding..