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[Arion]

i know the reboot series is all about Lara Croft growing up as a character and "becoming the survivor" and all that but I kinda wish they could just cut out the middleman and get to the point where she is the confident, playful, somewhat sadistic but self-aware Lara of old.

At least we still have Temple of Osiris where old Lara is still alive.

 

[TrutaS]

I hate that they make her so vulnerable and fragile in the cutscenes, only to place her in situation where she kills 30 with a pickaxe to the brain without batting an eyelash. It just doesn't fit and is forced and ultimately what could be a really enjoyable characters is made just dull.

 

[Lokimaru]

Is it really MURDER if the other guy is going to try to kill you on sight? People act like she's stalking a family out for a nice meal on a Saturday night and gunning them down (You spot her about twenty feet back... Lara Croft!). At what point can you protect yourself from violence by inflicting it on those that would inflict it on you? I mean in this version you don't even have to kill some of the guards just sneak past them. It's just harder to do that then smiting them like a vengeful Goddess of War (and less fun).

 

[thumb]

...and yet that is infinitely better than what we have right now. I'll take the sassy British sex symbol who's having fun with what she's doing rather than the petulant child who whines about and hates everything.

I feel as though I'm playing an entirely different game when I read comments such as these. Lara is *constantly* interested and amazed by her finds. Her excitement and fascination comes through in her words and tone. It's absolutely there.

But yes, getting profoundly injured, exposed to the elements, and hunted by dozens of well-armed men does have a tendency to upset one's day. So she doesn't always have a smile.

 

[mushrambio]

I think the character's and story were the rebooted Tomb Raider's biggest flaw, including Lara. Great games nonetheless, but I think we've been spoiled by the Uncharted series with character development and story telling mastery, so perhaps we expect Tomb Raider, which is similar to UC in some ways, to carry that mantra. I wouldn't consider Lara's character so bad that I couldn't finish the game out, but definitely left a lot more to be desired with her development as the story progressed.

 

[thumb]

Also, can we talk about the whole "moaning" complaint? The idea that the new Lara is somehow emoting too much. I'm playing Uncharted 4 right now, and Nathan Drake is *always* emoting.

"ugh, urg, huh! ah, oh shit oh shit, *breathing heavy* okay, okay..no no no no!" and so on.

And he grunts (even little grunts!) with almost every jump and pull-up he makes. You can hear that it's difficult and that hard landings hurt.

It's starting to make me think that this is (partially) a double standard. And yes, Drake shivers in the cold as well. There's no question that Drake is more upbeat, and that the games have a different tone. But it's also clear that Drake's exposure to elements, pain, and exertion cause him to make equivalent noises.

 

[Rellik]

Also, can we talk about the whole "moaning" complaint? The idea that the new Lara is somehow emoting too much. I'm playing Uncharted 4 right now, and Nathan Drake is *always* emoting.

"ugh, urg, huh! ah, oh shit oh shit, *breathing heavy* okay, okay..no no no no!" and so on.

And he grunts (even little grunts!) with almost every jump and pull-up he makes. You can hear that it's difficult and that hard landings hurt.

It's starting to make me think that this is (partially) a double standard. And yes, Drake shivers in the cold as well. There's no question that Drake is more upbeat, and that the games have a different tone. But it's also clear that Drake's exposure to elements, pain, and exertion cause him to make equivalent noises.

You ever seen comments in Tennis? Notice how no one mentions the guys grunting loudly? They only make childish jokes about female tennis.

Seems to be a similar thing in the gaming world, especially with Tomb Raider.

 

[Catdaddy]

I go back and forth, the old TR games had a much lighter air about them while in the reboot they tried to make her more of a character by adding more emotion. The end result is mixed - the new character isn’t bad – the writing and Camilla’s VA delivery and the “I can do this” line chanted numerous times really drag it down and almost make a mockery of itself – because a few minutes later she’s setting 5 people on fire with Napalm arrows… They did do better in ROTTR – but she still has that underlying lack of self-confidence even after taking on a large group of armed foes with some brutal pick-axe kills nonetheless.

 

[Vlaphor]

I feel as though I'm playing an entirely different game when I read comments such as these. Lara is *constantly* interested and amazed by her finds. Her excitement and fascination comes through in her words and tone. It's absolutely there.

I never felt that in ROTR. She always seemed either disinterested to me, or just irritated that she has to be there. A big example is when she is standing near a cliff looking over the horizon. She says "What a lovely view" but she says it so down, depressed, and disinterested that I thought her next words would be "..it's too bad people still get cancer".

Compare that this scene in Tomb Raider Legend

https://youtu.be/MoowQ4INya0?t=543

where she genuinely sounds impressed and excited to see what she's seeing, there's just no comparison. ROTR Lara couldn't care less, Classic Lara enjoys what she does.

 

[Vlaphor]

Anyone here read Achewood? ROTR is what I imagine going on a worldwide adventure with Roast Beef would be like...except that Beef sometimes tries for happiness...

 

[Akuun]

I hate that they make her so vulnerable and fragile in the cutscenes, only to place her in situation where she kills 30 with a pickaxe to the brain without batting an eyelash. It just doesn't fit and is forced and ultimately what could be a really enjoyable characters is made just dull.

The first game turned me right off from the reboots because it endlessly beats you over the head with this shit. And I mean ENDLESSLY. She's almost always making scared and hurt noises, and when she's not, she's saying some variation of "ok Lara, you can do this". Everything she climbs across collapses behind her. Every fall is on her ass and an cue for her to make more scared and hurt noises.

Sure, I get that she's in a tough situation and is fighting for her life, but the game is just so relentlessly repetitive about it that it gets old super fast. There's no subtlety whatsoever. It's like the game tries way too hard to portray her as a normal person, then keeps glancing at you to see if you got it, and does it again just in case you missed it. Over and over and over, throughout the entire game. It's so fucking patronizing and annoying.

 

[Lokimaru]

I go back and forth, the old TR games had a much lighter air about them while in the reboot they tried to make her more of a character by adding more emotion. The end result is mixed - the new character isn’t bad – the writing and Camilla’s VA delivery and the “I can do this” line chanted numerous times really drag it down and almost make a mockery of itself – because a few minutes later she’s setting 5 people on fire with Napalm arrows… They did do better in ROTTR – but she still has that underlying lack of self-confidence even after taking on a large group of armed foes with some brutal pick-axe kills nonetheless.

Actually by the time She got napalm arrows she's way past giving any fucks. It's like that line in Dredd when he tells Anderson "Ya look ready." cause by that point Anderson had seen some shit.

 

[thumb]

I never felt that in ROTR. She always seemed either disinterested to me, or just irritated that she has to be there. A big example is when she is standing near a cliff looking over the horizon. She says "What a lovely view" but she says it so down, depressed, and disinterested that I thought her next words would be "..it's too bad people still get cancer".

Compare that this scene in Tomb Raider Legend

https://youtu.be/MoowQ4INya0?t=543

where she genuinely sounds impressed and excited to see what she's seeing, there's just no comparison. ROTR Lara couldn't care less, Classic Lara enjoys what she does.

I just don't know what you're talking about. Every item she finds, she expresses interest. When exploring tombs, she frequently emotes awe and wonder. "This must be a 16th century [fill-in-the-blank]". "Incredible". And so on.

Couldn't care less? Really? I just...I don't get it.

 

[Stranya]

The first game turned me right off from the reboots because it endlessly beats you over the head with this shit. And I mean ENDLESSLY. She's almost always making scared and hurt noises, and when she's not, she's saying some variation of "ok Lara, you can do this". Everything she climbs across collapses behind her. Every fall is on her ass and an cue for her to make more scared and hurt noises.

Sure, I get that she's in a tough situation and is fighting for her life, but the game is just so relentlessly repetitive about it that it gets old super fast. There's no subtlety whatsoever. It's like the game tries way too hard to portray her as a normal person, then keeps glancing at you to see if you got it, and does it again just in case you missed it. Over and over and over, throughout the entire game. It's so fucking patronizing and annoying.

Agreed.

I wish the reboot hadn't been an origin story, but had started with Croft as an already well-known treasure hunter. You could have kept the same expedition and crew. Just before they head out, the captain says they're waiting for one more. "Who?", they ask. Cut to a shot of Lara's boots as she strides down the jetty to the ship. Then reveal her back story gradually as the game goes on. And there'd be no need for all the "omg I'm so scared/tired/cold/hungry" stuff, and the dissonance between that and her casually headshotting bad guys like she's a trained assassin.

 

[Deleted member 752119]

I've enjoyed the character arc so far personally. Much more human and less of a caricature, and I've enjoyed the development from the start of the first game to where she is by end of ROTR.

 

[JustSquid]

Setting aside the whining from the reboot, I enjoyed the first in the series. I actually played through it twice (something I don't do often with video games). However, I still haven't finished ROTR. I do believe it's based on the fact I don't really care about the current Lara as a character anymore.

I am hyper-excited to play a Chole focused Uncharted "short" though!

 

[NeoRaider]

I never felt that in ROTR. She always seemed either disinterested to me, or just irritated that she has to be there. A big example is when she is standing near a cliff looking over the horizon. She says "What a lovely view" but she says it so down, depressed, and disinterested that I thought her next words would be "..it's too bad people still get cancer".

Compare that this scene in Tomb Raider Legend

https://youtu.be/MoowQ4INya0?t=543

where she genuinely sounds impressed and excited to see what she's seeing, there's just no comparison. ROTR Lara couldn't care less, Classic Lara enjoys what she does.

Lara in reboot and ROTTR is still not a tomb raider tho. She is becoming one.
She is 22 years old woman, struggling with her sanity.

 

[sublimit]

I just want classic Tomb Raider back focused on ruins, exploration, and puzzles.

Right now it's just a bad copy of Uncharted and it's sad because I really love the franchise and this reboot is not working for me.

I don't care about catchy dialogue every 10 steps or fighting soldiers in every room. I just want to get lost inside immense ruins with a lot of traps and puzzles to uncover, enigmatic stories to find and no one else but me in there to help.

Amen brother.And while you are at it i hope they also bring back a consistent,precision-based platforming system that gives full manual control back to the player.

But i know this will remain a dream as long as Crystal continues to work on TR.

 

[Axiology]

I think the problem is the different expectations that certain tones set for a piece of media.

With something that's a piece of pulpy action entertainment, I don't think most people are expecting the most well-written drama or unique plotlines. I think what most people are looking for is something that has an energy to it, which is usually sustained by quippy, "fun" characters. That's kind of the Marvel/Uncharted 1-3 side of media. Your piece of media embraces the general ridiculousness of superheroes, or treasure hunting or globe-trotting and just goes for a kind of "fun" angle with a few "human elements" sprinkled in.

On the other hand once you start to take yourself seriously, whether fair to not, I think that expectations grow. This gets you more to a DC/Tomb Raider 2013 issue of characterization. You're taking this really fantastic concepts, say superheroes or some kind of Japanese mysticism/ritualism, and you want an audience to take it seriously? That's asking a lot, and it needs to be anchored by even better narrative writing to earn that belief. Tomb Raider in particular did very little to earn my interest in Lara, in the characters around her, or in the world they created. It's almost tirelessly dark and brooding, but without any substantial character drama or charisma to carry you through the darkness.

Great response.

Perfectly sums up why stories like the new Tomb Raiders or DC's Cinematic Universe are so eyeroll inducing. You lose that "well, it's just a videogame/superhero movie" angle when you try to create these dark, serious stories. To succeed with that angle the writing has to be bulletproof, and none of the examples mentioned can pull that off at all.

Edit: And furthermore, the atmosphere of the game should fit the game's purpose. Tomb Raider should be about the wonder of discovering ancient, beautiful locales, not brooding mental crisis. It's the same kind of Zack Snyder-esque "growing up" of the franchise that actually makes it more juvenile in execution. The style and narrative of a game like Doom fits the type of game it is FAR BETTER than the torture porn of Tomb Raider.

 

[truly101]

Is it really MURDER if the other guy is going to try to kill you on sight? People act like she's stalking a family out for a nice meal on a Saturday night and gunning them down (You spot her about twenty feet back... Lara Croft!). At what point can you protect yourself from violence by inflicting it on those that would inflict it on you? I mean in this version you don't even have to kill some of the guards just sneak past them. It's just harder to do that then smiting them like a vengeful Goddess of War (and less fun).

Most of the people who like to apply that term to certain characters but its not applied with any consistency to mean anything of substance. If you took video game character = murderer to its ludicrous yet consistent application then pretty much most modern character and several classic characters are murderers just like Drake Lara and Kratos.

 

[Poona]

Whenever I recall what she sounds like to myself, I just hear her shouting "Jonah!". I agree with a lot of the posts here though, she is quite boring.

Yeah, the endless Jonah were really something. Had to turn my volume down as some of the things she said got too much.

 

[Imbarkus]

I have to agree I found the reboot gameplay a chore and the character a bore. I started the game on PS3 and then came back and powered through on PS4, where I found they removed additional... expressiveness?... from Lara's face...

This is just a sign of so much obsession and tinkering... this poor character has been cross-examined and reinvented and strutted around and flagshipped so many times. Maybe it would have been better not to reboot her and to have new games a seasoned Lara with some grey hair for once. #teamana

 

[thepenguin55]

From the original game all the way up to now I always found Lara to be a dull character. I love this series but it has DEFINITELY never been for its story or characters.

 

[luxarific]

Since TR2013 came out, I've seen people groaning and complaining about the new Tomb Raider. They say Camilla Luddington is a bad actress, they say the games are poorly written, they say they're generic third-person shooters, they say Lara has no personality, they say Lara is weak, and so on and so on.

And the only conclusion I can come to is that people who feel this way are from a different universe than me. I am in Earth A, where the new Tomb Raider games are the platinum standard for modern action adventure games, and people like you must be on Earth B, where where the new Tomb Raider is bad.

After three years of engaging in this debate, fielding criticisms and offering my own insights, the only truly logical possibility is this. You are simply from a wholly different reality than the one I live in. NeoGAF is piece of glass between our two planes of existence and we can peer just beyond it to see how the other dimension feels about Tomb Raider, but that is all.

Really makes you think. Greetings from Earth A. I wonder what else is different?

My condolences. Your universe sounds like a terrible place.

 

[Breakage]

Pre-reboot Lara was bedroom-wall poster material. Her design boldly combined sex appeal with a confident, intelligent personality. That's what made her so iconic.

In contrast, reboot Lara looks like a dull horticultural expert.
The design is just so ordinary and forgettable when compared to Underworld's acrobatic Lara.

 

[Megawarrior]

Most of her personality is in the mansion dlc tbh. Even though it was mostly walking simulator, it gave her character some depth unlike the main game.

 

[RedSwirl]

I think the problem is the different expectations that certain tones set for a piece of media.

With something that's a piece of pulpy action entertainment, I don't think most people are expecting the most well-written drama or unique plotlines. I think what most people are looking for is something that has an energy to it, which is usually sustained by quippy, "fun" characters. That's kind of the Marvel/Uncharted 1-3 side of media. Your piece of media embraces the general ridiculousness of superheroes, or treasure hunting or globe-trotting and just goes for a kind of "fun" angle with a few "human elements" sprinkled in.

On the other hand once you start to take yourself seriously, whether fair to not, I think that expectations grow. This gets you more to a DC/Tomb Raider 2013 issue of characterization. You're taking this really fantastic concepts, say superheroes or some kind of Japanese mysticism/ritualism, and you want an audience to take it seriously? That's asking a lot, and it needs to be anchored by even better narrative writing to earn that belief. Tomb Raider in particular did very little to earn my interest in Lara, in the characters around her, or in the world they created. It's almost tirelessly dark and brooding, but without any substantial character drama or charisma to carry you through the darkness.

Good point. I don't agree with the whole dark survivor angle for Lara aside from how it was executed, but apart from that, even the darkest stuff has to have a little bit of lightness in it to remind you the characters are still human. Particularly in TR2013 Lara spent way too much time getting her ass kicked and in both games she's pretty much covered in dirt and blood and getting into super-violent situations all the time. There wasn't enough to ground it all. I'm not asking for Lara to be Nathan Drake, but she can stand to lighten up a little bit. I always expected sequels to TR2013 to have Lara grapple with the part of her that maybe enjoys investigating these tombs and getting into all sorts of danger.

Oh, and even Nolan's Batman movies -- the inspiration behind dark reboot-mania, were PG-13.

 

[K.Jack]

Cocky rich girl on her "fuck it I'm going for mine" adventure wave was way more interesting that the cookie cutter Hollywood tale of "pretty but weak willed white girl who has to find her inner strength and get tough to survive", that the new series has become.

The hook to play the original series was simple, Laura was saying: "I'm a badass adventurer. Walk with me." That was all the reason you needed to literally dive into the adventure.

 

[KnightimeX_Legacy]

Meanwhile After reading this, some random girl with the same personality as Lara is now drinking bleach because TC has issues with it.
R.I.P random lady.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

100% agreed with the OP. She's terrible.

Honestly, everything in the modern TR games is dull and boring.

Fixed

Since TR2013 came out, I've seen people groaning and complaining about the new Tomb Raider. They say Camilla Luddington is a bad actress, they say the games are poorly written, they say they're generic third-person shooters, they say Lara has no personality, they say Lara is weak, and so on and so on.

And the only conclusion I can come to is that people who feel this way are from a different universe than me. I am in Earth A, where the new Tomb Raider games are the platinum standard for modern action adventure games, and people like you must be on Earth B, where where the new Tomb Raider is bad.

After three years of engaging in this debate, fielding criticisms and offering my own insights, the only truly logical possibility is this. You are simply from a wholly different reality than the one I live in. NeoGAF is piece of glass between our two planes of existence and we can peer just beyond it to see how the other dimension feels about Tomb Raider, but that is all.

Really makes you think. Greetings from Earth A. I wonder what else is different?

Earth B is wonderful, thank you. The people aren't completely crazy and have decent taste in video games!

Please stop trying to handwave the writing. Most games have mediocre writing that doesn't even matter to the game as whole, but TR2013 and RotTR have aggressively obnoxious writing that actively brings the whole damn thing down.

Yeeeep

This is a video game. Video games are not real. Characters can wear whatever they want, practical or not. ROtTR has enemies that are undead firing magic at you, so there's no excuses why they can't take liberties in making more varied outfits.

Ugh. Tomb Raider actually takes itself quite seriously for a fantasy story, the setting is fairly grounded. So spare me the "it's fantasy so we should dress her like a bimbo" excuses.

PLENTY of women love classic Lara, grew up with her and were inspired by her. Where did you get your information from that 90s games were like a boy's club?

Errrr... are you for real? Were you even around in the 90's by any chance?

Just look at all the ads for mainstream games. "Will you save the girl? Or play like one?"

I think the problem is the different expectations that certain tones set for a piece of media.

With something that's a piece of pulpy action entertainment, I don't think most people are expecting the most well-written drama or unique plotlines. I think what most people are looking for is something that has an energy to it, which is usually sustained by quippy, "fun" characters. That's kind of the Marvel/Uncharted 1-3 side of media. Your piece of media embraces the general ridiculousness of superheroes, or treasure hunting or globe-trotting and just goes for a kind of "fun" angle with a few "human elements" sprinkled in.

On the other hand once you start to take yourself seriously, whether fair to not, I think that expectations grow. This gets you more to a DC/Tomb Raider 2013 issue of characterization. You're taking this really fantastic concepts, say superheroes or some kind of Japanese mysticism/ritualism, and you want an audience to take it seriously? That's asking a lot, and it needs to be anchored by even better narrative writing to earn that belief. Tomb Raider in particular did very little to earn my interest in Lara, in the characters around her, or in the world they created. It's almost tirelessly dark and brooding, but without any substantial character drama or charisma to carry you through the darkness.

Indeed. Tomb Raider takes itself way too seriously for the silly pulpy story it tells. Uncharted games have just the right amount of wit and fun, whereas TR has zero charm, and so its bad writing is even more obvious.

 

[NullPointer]

I think the problem is the different expectations that certain tones set for a piece of media.

With something that's a piece of pulpy action entertainment, I don't think most people are expecting the most well-written drama or unique plotlines. I think what most people are looking for is something that has an energy to it, which is usually sustained by quippy, "fun" characters. That's kind of the Marvel/Uncharted 1-3 side of media. Your piece of media embraces the general ridiculousness of superheroes, or treasure hunting or globe-trotting and just goes for a kind of "fun" angle with a few "human elements" sprinkled in.

On the other hand once you start to take yourself seriously, whether fair to not, I think that expectations grow. This gets you more to a DC/Tomb Raider 2013 issue of characterization. You're taking this really fantastic concepts, say superheroes or some kind of Japanese mysticism/ritualism, and you want an audience to take it seriously? That's asking a lot, and it needs to be anchored by even better narrative writing to earn that belief. Tomb Raider in particular did very little to earn my interest in Lara, in the characters around her, or in the world they created. It's almost tirelessly dark and brooding, but without any substantial character drama or charisma to carry you through the darkness.

This is a really great post, and taken on these terms I can totally agree.

 

[takriel]

well who isn't really these days in your average AAA game.

edit: I should really stop these drive-by posts, I can do better than this!

 

[Memorabilia]

The problem with the reboot is the writing is at odds with the game design choices / constraints. On the one hand, we have this attempt to portray Lara in a realistic light...her fears, vulnerability, and growth as a person while evolving into "the Tomb Raider". On the other hand, the designers decided to make these games more about non-stop combat than exploring tombs. So we end up with a character who is a mass murderer when the player is controlling her vs a scared, "normal" girl just trying to survive in the cut-scenes. The problem isn't so much Lara as the game design. That said, Ive enjoyed my time w/ TR Reboot quite a bit, even if it requires shutting ones brain off Re: the story.

 

[Jennipeg]

The problem with the reboot is the writing is at odds with the game design choices / constraints. On the one hand, we have this attempt to portray Lara in a realistic light...her fears, vulnerability, and growth as a person while evolving into "the Tomb Raider". On the other hand, the designers decided to make these games more about non-stop combat than exploring tombs. So we end up with a character who is a mass murderer when the player is controlling her vs a scared, "normal" girl just trying to survive in the cut-scenes. The problem isn't so much Lara as the game design. That said, Ive enjoyed my time w/ TR Reboot quite a bit, even if it requires shutting ones brain off Re: the story.

I actually don't think there is a big disconnect in Rise, Lara

Spoiler

shoots an unarmed woman point blank

in a cutscene. She is just as psychotic in the story scenes, Anna even says 'that's cold even for you'. The problem is they also try and portray her as this sweet trustworthy person who can help these poor people survive the coming attack. Apparently Lara only has the best interests of these people at heart, except she doesn't, all she cares about is proving her father right, and in this situation it is incredibly selfish on her part. Not only is she a badly written character, I think she is a bad person.

 

[Schopenhauerian]

With something that's a piece of pulpy action entertainment, I don't think most people are expecting the most well-written drama or unique plotlines. I think what most people are looking for is something that has an energy to it, which is usually sustained by quippy, "fun" characters...

On the other hand once you start to take yourself seriously... it needs to be anchored by even better narrative writing to earn that belief. Tomb Raider... [is] without any substantial character drama or charisma to carry you through the darkness...

Great response. Perfectly sums up why stories like the new Tomb Raiders or DC's Cinematic Universe are so eyeroll inducing. You lose that "well, it's just a videogame/superhero movie" angle when you try to create these dark, serious stories. To succeed with that angle the writing has to be bulletproof, and none of the examples mentioned can pull that off at all... Tomb Raider should be about the wonder of discovering ancient, beautiful locales, not brooding mental crisis. It's the same kind of Zack Snyder-esque "growing up" of the franchise that actually makes it more juvenile in execution...

Anyway, I think the problem (as stated by others) is that the stories are mediocre even when compared to its peers in the genre and the characters fall flat pretty hard... As it stands now, TR2013 and ROTTR look, play, and sound great but they desperately need to improve their characters and storytelling. Or just jettison those and return Lara to a fun, but one-dimensional archetype like she was in the past...

Also: the two most recent games (TR2013 and ROTTR) are often equated in these recurring threads, but there are many who think there's an important distinction to be made between the two, as was highlighted earlier.

Within this thread alone, some of the folks who were willing to cut TR2013 some slack, and yet were deeply disappointed by ROTTR:

Having just finished Rise of the Tomb Raider, I feel like the narrative and characterizations were SORELY lacking this time around. I LOVED TR 2013, and I felt that story worked far better and Lara's motivations made far more sense as someone who is forced into an impossible situation and must fight to survive and to save her friend. Someone brought up Sam as a good example of Lara's source of determination. Yamatai was a far more interesting locale, as well. I didn't really come to find Luddington's performance problematic until playing through Rise. Her breathy, desperate delivery in the first one made sense. Here it's one-note, overwrought, and played out...

I fully agree. In the 2013 reboot it was more justified by the story, in ROTR instead it's just unbearable, not to mention the terrible writing with the constant "it's incredible" everywhere. I hope the rumors are true and next TR is developed by Eidos Montreal and with an adult Lara as the main character as in the old Core Design days.

I like her character far less in the 2nd game. It's like they wanted to tell her origin story again, she has not progressed as a character at all from the end of the 1st game. All of her development happened within that one game, and now she just is. Her motivations make no sense, her plan is total rubbish. She ignores the one person to point this out to her, and brushes it off with 'I must...' 'I have to.....' er no you don't Lara... She is just dull and badly written, I liked her in the first one, and I am so so disappointed with how they are treading water with her character now. While all this seems hyperbolic it is the only way I can express my severe disappointment. Give me Chloe with an English accent any day.

Setting aside the whining from the reboot, I enjoyed the first in the series. I actually played through it twice (something I don't do often with video games). However, I still haven't finished ROTR. I do believe it's based on the fact I don't really care about the current Lara as a character anymore. I am hyper-excited to play a Chole focused Uncharted "short" though!

What I came in to say. That was fine for the reboot... even in [TR2013] there were some hints of smug arrogance coming back... RotTR feels largely joyless to me as far as her character. No flirting really, no fun, no cracking some humor (even dark or sarcastic humor), no confidence. It's weird... the rather straightforward and uninspired writing of her fails both of those points.

Lara was interesting when around Sam, too bad they axed Sam from the game and stuck us with Jonah instead.

I loved the reboot but I can't for the life of me get properly into ROTR.

I really enjoyed Tomb Raider 2013. It was nice to see a Lara that wasn't already a badass. For some reason I couldn't stand her in RotTR...

While I powered thru TR2013, despite the horrid characters and story, I just couldn't do it with RoTR and sold it back...

I got to agree that Rise of the Tomb Raider is pretty badly written... The first reboot game wasn't quite as bad... With RotR it seems like the writers did not know what to do beyond coming up with the initial premise (prove daddy dearest wasn't a nut by finding the lost city/artifact)...they have managed to add zero charm...

...She may have had a misguided and poorly-handled character arc in the previous TR game, but at least she was a character. In ROTR, she's just a middle-finger pointed at the player the entire time. Like I said previously, this is the only game I've ever played where the protagonist was so terrible that I was skipping cutscenes after awhile, just because of how much I couldn't stand her...

I thought TR 2013 was workmanlike, and at least they TRIED something with Lara there, even if it didn't always pan out. Rise is a horrible cliche fest with completely awful writing, and Lara herself is not the least bit interesting in it. Unfortunately I think Rhianna Pratchett is a very poor writer. Even within the confines of the game, she manages to make every line either a non-sequitur, a cliche, or a statement of the obvious.

Messofanego had a great thread a while back (Take Rhianna Pratchett off and bring in Cara Ellison). Unfortunate that CD quite clearly did not take Cara Ellison's advice.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Haven't played RotR, but how can the story be even worse than the first game? Boggles my mind.

People need to stop giving Rhianna Pratchett work...

 

[Schopenhauerian]

Messofanego had a great thread a while back (Take Rhianna Pratchett off and bring in Cara Ellison). Unfortunate that CD quite clearly did not take Cara Ellison's advice.

Haven't played RotR, but how can the story be even worse than the first game? Boggles my mind. People need to stop giving Rhianna Pratchett work...

I really wanted to support CD and the Tomb Raider franchise, despite my mixed feelings toward TR2013, so I actually purchased Steam's 'Digital Deluxe' version of ROTTR on Day 1, back in January.

And until now, I've been putting forward my own views on ROTTR somewhat delicately:

It would be nice if Lara's adventures were (in greater measure) initiated and sustained by her own curiosity, ambition, wit, insight, ingenuity, empathy, sophistication, intelligence...

But like others in this thread, I really found some of the characterization in ROTTR to be downright offensive.

While I wouldn't want to repeat too much of my earlier post, I would want to note that RagnarokX has been diligently making this point (in various threads) for quite a while now:

...When Crystal Dynamics took over [with Legend in 2006, long before the reboot], for whatever reason, they decided Lara couldn't just WANT to be an adventurer. She needed something forcing her to do all this stuff. They changed her backstory so that her father was a famous adventurer, too, so she's just following in daddy's footsteps. And her reason for going on these adventures is because her mommy disappeared in the plane crash in the Himalayas and she wants to find her...

...Why does she need to be following in her father's footsteps or trying to find her missing mom, CD?

She specifically says at the beginning of [TR2013] that she is looking for adventure, that's how she ended up in that mess. It was her own theories that took them all there. In [ROTTR] she isn't exactly looking for adventure she is out to redeem her father...

Others have noted that within ROTTR, Lara does nonetheless (on occasion) take a purely intellectual/aesthetic interest of her own in what she's doing:

New Lara... is genuinely interested in the world of Archaeology based on her mannerisms and reactions to ancient monuments...

Lara is *constantly* interested and amazed by her finds. Her excitement and fascination comes through in her words and tone. It's absolutely there.

...Every item she finds, she expresses interest. When exploring tombs, she frequently emotes awe and wonder. "This must be a 16th century [fill-in-the-blank]". "Incredible". And so on...

Now, this is certainly not nothing. To the extent that Lara is meant to be taking an intrinsically intellectual/aesthetic interest in what she's doing during the course of ROTTR, I would like to wholeheartedly commend the devs.

In terms of the way that ROTTR actually communicates Lara's intellectual/aesthetic interest, however, I would unfortunately have to agree with (portions of) earlier posts in this thread:

...in ROTR instead it's just unbearable, not to mention the terrible writing with the constant "it's incredible" everywhere...

Having just finished Rise of the Tomb Raider, I feel like the narrative and characterizations were SORELY lacking this time around... [in TR2013] I felt that story worked far better and Lara's motivations made far more sense... I didn't really come to find Luddington's performance problematic until playing through Rise. Her breathy, desperate delivery in the first one made sense. Here it's one-note, overwrought, and played out...

...I dont know what their angle is... she comes across as... stressed to the max even when describing an ornate handle of an ancient dagger relic...

She does sound like every word is an effort, I assumed it was down to her poshness but I guess not...

I don't mind NuLara, but I don't like the actress who plays her. Very breathy, her performance...

I thought the older one was at least a bit more fun (maybe I'm remembering incorrectly). Current Croft is just breathy and melodramatic the whole time... I would hope that the actively developing series would attempt to improve the character better over her present incarnation...

Keeley Hawes Lara was never a super deep character, but she was bright and likable, and gave off a sense that she was out there doing what she wanted to in life. Finding ancient treasures was her passion... Luddington Lara is just in "I've got to..." mode 24/7. She recites every line in the same flat, breathless tone. Seriously, even the flavour text when you pick up a collectible; she sounds the same whether she's reading a paragraph about an ancient Greek urn or talking about how she's got to find shelter for the night. There's no hint of levity, or any kind of personality beyond the general goal of finding treasure that will prove her Dad wasn't nuts (not because she wants to find treasure). I feel like the writers aimed for 'driven' but missed and hit 'robotic'. And she clearly pronounces the 't' in 'mortar & pestle', which is just... I mean, come on, do an extra take in the voiceover booth...

 

[patapuf]

Haven't played RotR, but how can the story be even worse than the first game? Boggles my mind.

People need to stop giving Rhianna Pratchett work...

I don't know about worse, they have a more elaborate plot and it doesn't make much sense but that is true of much of the genre.

Imo, what kills it is the same thing that killed the first: characters and their motivation are terribly written. The dialogue is not great and it takes itself way too seriously for something with so little depth.

Still a pretty good action game.. but not for the story.

 

[Mman235]

I think the problem is the different expectations that certain tones set for a piece of media.

With something that's a piece of pulpy action entertainment, I don't think most people are expecting the most well-written drama or unique plotlines. I think what most people are looking for is something that has an energy to it, which is usually sustained by quippy, "fun" characters. That's kind of the Marvel/Uncharted 1-3 side of media. Your piece of media embraces the general ridiculousness of superheroes, or treasure hunting or globe-trotting and just goes for a kind of "fun" angle with a few "human elements" sprinkled in.

On the other hand once you start to take yourself seriously, whether fair to not, I think that expectations grow. This gets you more to a DC/Tomb Raider 2013 issue of characterization. You're taking this really fantastic concepts, say superheroes or some kind of Japanese mysticism/ritualism, and you want an audience to take it seriously? That's asking a lot, and it needs to be anchored by even better narrative writing to earn that belief. Tomb Raider in particular did very little to earn my interest in Lara, in the characters around her, or in the world they created. It's almost tirelessly dark and brooding, but without any substantial character drama or charisma to carry you through the darkness.

Nailed it. "The old ones had bad writing too!" misses the forest for the trees. The earlier games (AOD aside, but, well, it's AOD) had few pretensions of being anything other than light-hearted pulp adventures, and the story and characters only existed to facilitate that. The reboot really wants you to believe that it's something more than that, when it just isn't. The real issue with this is that other aspects of the design are compromised to support this new direction; tombs are small because giant tombs full of traps and puzzles would be "unrealistic", supernatural enemies are nigh-indentical to other human enemies because actually giving them proper supernatual abilities or appearances wouldn't be "believable". The new approach compromises aspects of it's game design for the sake of story and then does it badly.

Most of her personality is in the mansion dlc tbh. Even though it was mostly walking simulator, it gave her character some depth unlike the main game.

They're still nothing special, but I noticed that there was more personality in the DLC's very quickly, even the non-story focused ones. I mean, there's even a few jokes there!!

The fact that Rhianna Pratchett wasn't involved in them makes it feel like more than a coincidence.

Haven't played RotR, but how can the story be even worse than the first game? Boggles my mind.

People need to stop giving Rhianna Pratchett work...

I don't think it is. It's only incrementally better, but still better. Lara at least occasionally seems like she wants to be there, and the relationship of the villains is *almost* interesting. It's not, but it could have been, unlike the first game where I can think of no character who's anything more than a pack of shallow cliches.

Also, while I do hope she manages to prove me wrong someday, I fully agree with your second part. There's only so many times you can say your writing is bad because of the nature of game development, when some of the best stories in the history of games have come out of incredibly messy development cycles.

 

[jond76]

I love the series and eagerly anticipate the next one.