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[Robert at Zeboyd Games]

It's like saying that supermarkets shouldn't sell products that are outright broken. It's like saying grocery stores shouldn't sell food that has rotted.

I really wish people would stop using this metaphor as an example of why curation is good. The vast majority of food sold at your average grocery store is destructive. They're selling food that will literally kill you with packaging that is extremely deceptive, but people don't care because it's cheap to make, cheap to buy, tastes good, and ultimately, the damage is done over the course of decades, not immediately. Worst thing a bad game on Steam can do to you is mess up your computer (extremely rare) or waste your time & money (more common).

 

[EmiPrime]

On my Steam front page I am shown some featured games, special offers, what games my friends are playing, a "discovery" queue, curator recommendations and popular new releases.

Steam can have all the horrible shovelware tat in the world, I am never going to be exposed to it; neither I nor my friends touch any of it so Steam's algorithm is going to insulate me from it all and only prominently show decent games. This is not like walking into an actual supermarket with 80% of the shelves filled with rotting food or teddies covered in ejaculate or any other tortured analogy. Nobody is going to discover the truly wretched, broken crap on Steam unless they are actively looking for it. I'm not saying Valve shouldn't take a scalpel (or a chainsaw) and cut away at the trash on their store but it's hardly a huge concern either.

 

[Wolfgunblood Garopa]

I can assure you that Stardew Valley wouldn't get 10% of its current sales if it didn't get into Steam. Also, good for you that you don't care for good games getting into the store, let those developers fend for themselves. I mean, what's really important is that you don't ever look at a game you wouldn't like on the front page right?

I doubt that. Stardew Valley is an obviously good game that people would like. A popular youtuber or streamer would showcase it and it would find it's way on Steam.

 

[Peterthumpa]

I really wish people would stop using this metaphor as an example of why curation is good. The vast majority of food sold at your average grocery store is destructive. They're selling food that will literally kill you with packaging that is extremely deceptive, but people don't care because it's cheap to make, cheap to buy, tastes good, and ultimately, the damage is done over the course of decades, not immediately. Worst thing a bad game on Steam can do to you is mess up your computer (extremely rare) or waste your time & money (more common).

AND you can refund within the first 2 hours of play time, so it's even more simple with Steam. Really. This is a NON ISSUE.
Don't like it? Return it, simple as that. It's not like there's a shortage of opinions about the game before even buying it.

Also, there are people that actually love crap games. They play it for the laughs. I'm not one of them, but they're entitled to spend their cash in any form or way they see fit.

 

[totowhoa]

On my Steam front page I am shown some featured games, special offers, what games my friends are playing, a "discovery" queue, curator recommendations and popular new releases.

Steam can have all the horrible shovelware tat in the world, I am never going to be exposed to it; neither I nor my friends touch any of it so Steam's algorithm is going to insulate me from it all and only prominently show decent games. This is not like walking into an actual supermarket with 80% of the shelves filled with rotting food or teddies covered in ejaculate or any other tortured analogy. Nobody is going to discover the truly wretched, broken crap on Steam unless they are actively looking for it. I'm not saying Valve shouldn't take a scalpel (or a chainsaw) and cut away at the trash on their store but it's hardly a huge concern either.

Yeah. Most of the bitching is coming from two things, I think:

1) The news story around this 40% stat - yay a reason to complain about Valve, even if it's not really that great and doesn't impact me in a meaingful way!

2) Journalists who sift through the new release section, which is a mess because it's NOT curated. This is a legit issue for them, and they also have a lot of reach online when they complain. See my avatar - Giant Bomb definitely complains about this regularly enough.

Their algorithms do a pretty good job for the most part, for most people. But cum toys. Har har, good one Jim.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

GOG's moderation blows (they denied one of the greatest 2D action masterpieces ever lol).

Context? Not sure what you're referring to.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

I really wish people would stop using this metaphor as an example of why curation is good. The vast majority of food sold at your average grocery store is destructive. They're selling food that will literally kill you with packaging that is extremely deceptive, but people don't care because it's cheap to make, cheap to buy, tastes good, and ultimately, the damage is done over the course of decades, not immediately. Worst thing a bad game on Steam can do to you is mess up your computer (extremely rare) or waste your time & money (more common).

The food isn't going to kill you unless you eat too much of it. And it comes with serving sizes.

Yes, I know there's a larger discussion to be had here about foods being designed in a way that makes them addictive, but regardless, if you actually follow the instructions you'll be fine.

If a supermarket was selling food that literally poisoned people, it would get into trouble fast.

Edit: stupid double post

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Guys, let's stop acting like concern over Steam is anything more than judging people's work at best, and telling them that they are worthless at worst.

Your hidden gems are my crap, and my crap could very well be your hidden gems.

Who should be the arbitrator of what is a good game, you? Me? Valve employees?

I think I should be, I think you should be. I think WE should be, not a corporation who only cares about the bottom line.

The tools need to and ARE evolving in ways that allows the best stuff for you AND for me, to surface.

This post is fucking golden.

I dunno, if you watch the piles of shit he often finds and plays, you'd be in agreement.

It's not Valve's fault if someone is going out and buying crap on purpose.

Maybe you're not disagreeing now, but let's have this conversation in 2 years time when we have another 10,000 titles on Steam.

In 2 years, the already fantastic filter options will be better.

 

[MUnited83]

Those lists take time to get to, whereas I was suggesting those lists be set to a toggle switch that makes them become the main storefront.

The idea is to clean up the UI, which is what most of the complaints center on.

? The store already works like this. The vast majority of the storefront is either curated or targeting you specifically.

 

[jblank83]

Curation is an overrated load of bullshit. "Curation" in digital storefronts is about as significant as the "curation" at a movie theater. The biggest names with the most money will get the most play, with the exception of a small indie hit here and there.

Which puts most products out to pasture, especially the ones that the PC scene should be most proud of. Successes like Undertale, Subnautica, and Rimworld would have a much more difficult time in a big name dominated field. It's the very openness of the platform that has made it the thriving place scene it is today.

What Steam needs are better tools for browsing releases. It needs better search trees, better ways to dig down based on genres/tags and better ways to filter out what you're not interested in. It needs better visual formats to make this process more interesting.

What it doesn't need is someone telling mid and small level developers to fuck off because they aren't good enough, big enough, or don't have enough buzz in the media.

 

[Madame M]

Letting people use their discretion when buying games? Well I never!

Each title should have Gabe Newell's grease stain of approval

 

[Laiza]

When you can tailor the store to your needs I don't see why people are complaining.

This reads in a funny way to me.

Let me try to reword it:

"I don't see why customers having the store manager's work being offloaded to them results in complaints from those customers."

 

[MUnited83]

This reads in a funny way to me.

Let me try to reword it:

"I don't see why customers having the store manager's work being offloaded to them results in complaints from those customers."

Dunno, "I want the manager of the store to cater the entire store exclusively to my taste and I want him to deliver to me personally the games he thinks I should be interested in" reads much funnier.

 

[sonicmj1]

The food isn't going to kill you unless you eat too much of it. And it comes with serving sizes.

Yes, I know there's a larger discussion to be had here about foods being designed in a way that makes them addictive, but regardless, if you actually follow the instructions you'll be fine.

If a supermarket was selling food that literally poisoned people, it would get into trouble fast.

Bad food literally poisons people. That's why we have laws and regulatory agencies that control what can be sold, and why even a supermarket with a robust refund policy will go out of its way not to stock expired food.

Steam sells software. Unless that software harms your computer or steals information, it cannot create any harm that can't be undone by a refund. It sounds like Steam already checks to make sure that people aren't selling malware. Given that, what's the big deal?

There was a time where I would have said that Steam wasn't doing enough to curate its store. But they've come a long way over the last few updates in allowing users to block games they don't care about, providing information about the quality of the games they come across, and refunding people who wind up buying a lemon. With all those things in mind, it doesn't matter how much complete shit is in the store, because nobody has to lose money on it unless they want to.

I don't feel like Valve doing more game screening would meaningfully change the quality of the store. Even if a game comes out and is essentially non-functional, anyone who buys it can get a refund, it'll get buried by negative reviews, and it will get lost in the mass of other titles.

 

[Robert at Zeboyd Games]

The food isn't going to kill you unless you eat too much of it. And it comes with serving sizes.

No, what I meant was that the vast majority of food at the grocery store is bad for you. Not only the stuff that's obviously bad for you (nobody's eating twinkies and thinking they're healthy), but the vast majority of food packaging that are covered with healthy buzzwords are bad as well since they're hoping that you look at the marketing & ignore the nutritional info which states a very different story. And if your diet consists of typical grocery store food, then over a period of years, you'll gain weight, your organs will become weaker, and you'll become more susceptible to disease and injury. Your diet can literally kill you and as evidenced by the horrible state of health in the United States at the moment, it's killing scores of people (and drastically decreasing the quality of life for many more).

Using grocery stores as an example of how Steam should be run is ridiculously bad on so many levels.

 

[ymgve]

The first non-Valve game on Steam was Rag Doll Kung Fu.

Bad Rats got published on Steam way before Greenlight was a thing.


Steam has never been about quality control.

 

[Dr. Zoidberg]

People always bitched about the Xbox Live Indie Games for similar reasons, but there were clear user ratings for the games as well as mandatory demos. It wasn't that hard to find the gems, but most people just don't want to be bothered. The saving grace on Steam is that it's all one store and the low-budget games aren't cordoned off into their own section like XBLIG. People still have to shop there for the games they want, so people aren't going to just ignore it like they did with the XBLIG section.

 

[Robert at Zeboyd Games]

People always bitched about the Xbox Live Indie Games for similar reasons, but there were clear user ratings for the games as well as mandatory demos. It wasn't that hard to find the gems, but most people just don't want to be bothered. The saving grace on Steam is that it's all one store and the low-budget games aren't cordoned off into their own section like XBLIG. People still have to shop there for the games they want, so people aren't going to just ignore it like they did with the XBLIG section.

And you know what? Because of XBLIG, there are a number of games & developers that would never have existed without it. Not only do storefronts with minimal curation allow new developers & games to find success, but they also encourage people to make games in the first place. I never would have gone into game development if it wasn't for the fact that I knew I could publish on XBLIG without having to get approved by a publisher or platform owner.

 

[Gaogaogao]

Just don't buy shit games?

I don't see the issue.

people keep saying this, but the shit doesnt go away, it just piles up, making it hard to find honest to goodness video games.

40%. 1 year. insane.

 

[totowhoa]

people keep saying this, but the shit doesnt go away, it just piles up, making it hard to find honest to goodness video games.

40%. 1 year. insane.

Is it a struggle for you to use steam or are you just reacting to the stat?

 

[Gaogaogao]

Is it a struggle for you to use steam or are you just reacting to the stat?

both really. it doesnt have to be this way.

 

[More_Badass]

people keep saying this, but the shit doesnt go away, it just piles up, making it hard to find honest to goodness video games.

40%. 1 year. insane.

The bad and shit books arent going away from Amazon or Barnes&Noble or the library....does that mean those place should only put the "good" books on their shelves?

And honestly if you find it hard to find good games, I think you aren't looking. Popular New Releases, Friend Activity, GAF, sites, etc.

I tend to play lesser known indie games more often than most and I'm always discovering gems.

 

[Gaogaogao]

The bad and shit books arent going away from Amazon or Barnes&Noble or the library....does that mean those place should only put the "good" books on their shelves?

And honestly if you find it hard to find good games, I think you aren't looking. Popular New Releases, Friend Activity, GAF, sites, etc.

I tend to play lesser known indie games more often than most and I'm always discovering gems.

there shouldnt have to be an effort though, it can and should be easier.

 

[Salbug]

Ya know, it's a good thing we have such an easy way of reporting the quality of any one game these days compared back to the 80s, or else we'd probably be seeing the great PC gaming market crash of the 21st century by now. :v

At least I think that'd be the scenario that'd happen? ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

 

[More_Badass]

there shouldnt have to be an effort though, it can and should be easier.

It's not an effort. You literally go to the front page of Steam, or you just click "activity" and see what your friends are playing

Unless you want to told what the good games for you are out of the ones that are already listed? Then yes that's going to take some effort on your part

 

[Stumpokapow]

there shouldnt have to be an effort though, it can and should be easier.

Here's what I see on the front page, which presumably is the most low effort way to find things. I bolded everything that's the Greenlight garbage Jim is mad about, and I underlined stuff that is a legitimate professional release but just has not great reviews. So everything that's not bold or underlined is a game that theoretically is worth playing.

Featured and Recommended:
Contrast
Planet Coaster
Lara Croft GO
Orwell
Dragon's Dogma Dark Arisen
Kelvin and the Infamous Machine
Zenge
The Lion's Song
Hotline Miami 2
Clandestine
Ys I & II Chronicles
SteamWorld Heist

Special Offers:
block'hood
Deponia Doomsday
Valley
Two Worlds Collection
Commandos Behind Enemy Lines
Earthlock
Out of Reach
Gun
Screen Cheat
Dex

Trending Among Friends:
The Escapists
No Man's Sky
The Flame and the Flood
Big Pharma
Slain
Democracy 3
Rimworld
Dorke and Ymp

Top Sellers:
Planet Coaster
Civilization 6
Euro Truck Simulator 2
Total War: Warhammer
Skyrim
GTA5
Rust
Rainbow Six Siege Season Pass
The Forest
Cities: Skylines


Do you have a bunch of greenlight trash on your front page?

 

[Wowfunhappy]

I think that criticizing Steam's lazze-faire approach was valid up until the point they started offering refunds. Now, if you buy a bad game, you can get your money back. What's the problem, exactly?

I think that having broken games on your store looks stupid and damaging from a branding perspective, but that's on Valve rather than consumers. And since Valve's approach seems to be working out for them, maybe it's a good thing that I'm not running their company.

 

[mephixto]

Well if you look for shit you will find shit, I rarely use steam to find games, most of games I end putting on my wishlist or buy are because I found about them somewhere else like GAF, twitter or other sites.

Just for comparisson, apple release almost 800 games daily on the itunes store. I bet most of them are shit.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

there shouldnt have to be an effort though, it can and should be easier.

I think part of the issue I'm having is in trying to understand specific use cases wherein people are struggling to find content. Can you walk me through a scenario that involved you setting out to look for a good game with no specific criteria in mind and wound up buying some garbage shovelware title?

 

[Basileus777]

No thank you. A number of the games I buy on Steam would never even have made it on it under the old system.

 

[More_Badass]

Well if you look for shit you will find shit, I rarely use steam to find games I want, most of games I end putting on my wishlist or buy are because I found about them somewhere else like GAF, twitter or other sites.

Just for comparisson, apple release almost 800 games daily on the itunes store. I bet most of them are shit.

And much like Steam, you don't see them unless you're looking for them

 

[newtypepilot]

This video goes more in-depth as to why Steam has a shit ton of asset-flip garbage and why Steam has no real interest in removing them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1ny4gOEPm0&feature=youtu.be

quite eye opening

 

[Htown]

there shouldnt have to be an effort though, it can and should be easier.

it's near zero effort

the front page of steam defaults to showing you well-reviewed games, popular games, and games you'd be interested in based on your activity and friends lists.

 

[NathanS]

Really. GOG's tiny library makes it awful as a game store. As cool as DRM-free releases are, that's not enough to at least pull me in anyways. GOG needs an actual library.Did GOG actually turn that title down?

Makes it much better store, I can't stand dealing with Steam and have stopped bothering to try and find new games at Steam.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

Just for comparisson, apple release almost 800 games daily on the itunes store. I bet most of them are shit.

Apple has actual humans go through and test every single app. That test may amount to barely more than a cursory glance, but it does happen, as evidenced by all the apps that have been rejected.

This isn't to say that the majority aren't crap, but they will all at least open, at least on the version of iOS that was current at the time of release. The same can't be said for Steam.

Worth noting that the App Store also doesn't have an automated refund process, which makes a really big freaking difference imo.

 

[Ionic]

This isn't to say that the majority aren't crap, but they will all at least open, at least on the version of iOS that was current at the time of release. The same can't be said for Steam.

How many new games come out on Steam that actually don't even open? Or is this some theoretical issue?

 

[More_Badass]

Makes it much better store, I con't stand dealing with Steam and have stopped bothering to try and find new games at Steam.

You don't try and find new games on GOG?

Or do you mean finding good games, or good games that are suited for your tastes? That doesn't change regardless of the store.

GOG doesn't have N++, Sethian, House of the Dying Sun (aka the best space combat game this year), the Sorcery series, Thumper, Brigador, Diaries of Spaceport Janitor, Thoth, Devil Daggers (aka the best old school shooter after DOOM this year), and myriad more

So it's already an inferior store compared to Steam

 

[mephixto]

Apple has actual humans go through and test every single app. That test may amount to barely more than a cursory glance, but it does happen, as evidenced by all the apps that have been rejected.

This isn't to say that the majority aren't crap, but they will all at least open, at least on the version of iOS that was current at the time of release. The same can't be said for Steam.

Worth noting that the App Store also doesn't have an automated refund process, which makes a really big freaking difference imo.

Are you sure they still have people look to the apps before release?

http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/...-to-death-causes-outrage-20160115-gm76mw.html

 

[Tacitus_]

You don't try and find new games on GOG?

Personally I try to find old games on GOG.

Spoiler

sorry, couldn't resist

 

[Yabberwocky]

Jim's video titles are always very... er... visual. It's an interesting discussion either way.

 

[Chobel]

I think Jim has one really good point here, visiblity. The more there are shit out there, the harder for you to stand out, especially when the curators aren't doing out their job.

 

[StarHammer]

A game like Stardew Valley wouldn't make it to Steam if things were like before. While the amount of bad games is sad, the benefits outweigh the bad stuff.

Maybe someone else has pointed this out but Stardew Valley has a publisher (Chucklefish) so that would have still made it.

 

[Vigilant Gambit]

I think part of the issue I'm having is in trying to understand specific use cases wherein people are struggling to find content. Can you walk me through a scenario wherein you set out looking for a good game with no specific criteria in mind and winded up buying some garbage shovelware title?

Thanks for fighting the good fight, Youngblood. It seems as though Valve is essentially at the point I've been wanting them to get to for years: bringing down the walls to their ecosystem, so that the little guy actually has a shot at making it on his own. It's basically always been their civic duty, seeing as how they have the vast majority of the PC gaming market cornered. And as you guys have been saying, Steam's curation/discovery algorithms are basically on point now, so shit games are a non-issue.

 

[Abilidebob]

Maybe someone else has pointed this out but Stardew Valley has a publisher (Chucklefish) so that would have still made it.

Sure but

Barone publicly announced the game in September 2012, using Steam's Greenlight system to gauge interest on the game.[8][3][7] After the title was shown a great deal of support from the community, Barone began working on the title in full, engaging with Reddit and Twitter communities to discuss his progress and gain feedback on proposed additions.[3] He was approached by Finn Brice, director of Chucklefish Games, shortly after the Greenlight period in 2013, who offered to help publish the game on release.

 

[Steroyd]

No thank you. A number of the games I buy on Steam would never even have made it on it under the old system.

Except Jim isn't talking about going to the old system, just needs to be a middle ground like hire that one person who looks at Greenlight trailers and nukes all the blatant unit Z copy and paste games.

I find it hard to believe a supermarket would let anyone put whatever they want on their shelf space, whether they're deemed shit or not is for the public to decide but at the same time you'd at least make sure the food on the shelf is not made by a 5 year old who can only make 10 cookies a month.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

Jim's videos that don't work always have the form of a cluster of observations that should be in support of a central core with some asides like his successful videos yet only form a hodge-podge of random that doesn't come together and often miss when looked at critically from many angles.

I do agree with one of those hodge-podges though; there's more post-storehood sniffing out of the clearly unethical and non-functional entries. Some of those clowns get away with that for a very long time under cover of various tricks.

 

[ArtHands]

Sure but

Did the exposure from the steam greenlight grab the attention of that publisher?

 

[Eila]

This video goes more in-depth as to why Steam has a shit ton of asset-flip garbage and why Steam has no real interest in removing them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1ny4gOEPm0&feature=youtu.be

quite eye opening

Doesn't seem like the guy who made the video is aware of the biggest way these devs spread their game: by mass giving away steam keys that are free to produce. Even now Digital Homicide is still getting income by giving away keys for their games, so they will get that 10% cut in the market transactions.

 

[Abilidebob]

Did the exposure from the steam greenlight grab the attention of that publisher?

Absolutely. Some small publishers like to scour Greenlight for the "next hit". SV had quite the goodwill from the community, so that grabbed their attention. As I already said earlier, a guy from another "indie publisher" said that he was also almost certain that he wouldn't try to publish Stardew Valley, if ConcernedApe went to them through the "usual" roads. That is, getting some minutes to show his game at some convention or whatever. The community chose the game. A publisher noticed that and realized it'd work. Without Greenlight in the first place I think it'd be kinda hard for him to get that visibility.

 

[Basileus777]

Except Jim isn't talking about going to the old system, just needs to be a middle ground like hire that one person who looks at Greenlight trailers and nukes all the blatant unit Z copy and paste games.

I find it hard to believe a supermarket would let anyone put whatever they want on their shelf space, whether they're deemed shit or not is for the public to decide but at the same time you'd at least make sure the food on the shelf is not made by a 5 year old who can only make 10 cookies a month.

I don't want one person determining what games are on the store either. Someone limiting what options I have does nothing of worth for me and one person is simply incapable of doing this job anyway.

Supermarket analogies are dumb, we're not even talking about physical products. It might even be worse than the car analogies of days past.