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[Ordinaryundone]

lol i dunno even know why people like you pretend to care

I don't pretend to care, I do care. Just because I can talk about it without a bunch of buzzwords and twitter hastags and limp-wristed oratory doesn't mean I don't support the cause of equal rights. If you want to call me a villain, feel free. Unlike others I don't have thin skin, I don't really care what you think of myself, white people, or anyone else in general. But it all starts with engagement of reality, not constructing a new one in your head and then complaining when the real thing doesn't measure up.

 

[LionPride]

An ally can support the cause and still see that poster in the OP and especially those twitter conversations are divisive. Are you dropping them? Does even bringing it up cause you to drop them? Do you know these people won't continue the cause?

Bruh even I said the tweets were weird, as seen by the fact it derailed the hell out of this thread from the start. Bad example. They may continue, I don't know, don't care either. If the do they do. If they don't...they don't.

I don't pretend to care, I do care. Just because I can talk about it without a bunch of buzzwords and twitter hastags and limp-wristed oratory doesn't mean I don't support the cause of equal rights. If you want to call me a villain, feel free. Unlike others I don't have thin skin, I don't really care what you think of myself, white people, or anyone else in general. But it all starts with engagement of reality, not constructing a new one in your head and then complaining when the real thing doesn't measure up.

I don't pretend to care, I do care.

No you don't.

Just because I can talk about it without a bunch of buzzwords and twitter hastags and limp-wristed oratory doesn't mean I don't support the cause of equal rights.

Oh you one of them people

If you want to call me a villain, feel free. Unlike others I don't have thin skin, I don't really care what you think of myself, white people, or anyone else in general.

People ain't gonna call you a villain cause you don't matter enough in the lives of most people here to warrant that much attention. Obviously you do care, or you wouldn't keep arguing.

 

[TestOfTide]

I read the thread and I cannot see how you can claim an 8 point swing in the largest voting bloc would somehow not matter under any alternative scenario you can come up with.

Please explain.

And for the record, if it broke 51 43 the other way, we should still have this same conversation. National headlines might say "FIRST WOMAN PRESIDENT", but we know who put her there.

You seem so focused on the category of "white women". Why? Why not split it into too more specific categories?:

White College Educated Women: Actually voted for Hillary. For reference they voted for Romney in 2012 so this is actually a big deal.

White Non-College Educated Women: Voted pretty much like their male counterparts, which is to say HEAVILY for Trump. THIS is the group that needs to be questioned.

 

[ReaperXL7]

It's not about assigning blame to the people marching next to you, it's a call for them to realize that when push came to shove with regard to privilege vs gender, a majority of white women voted to preserve their privilege. That is something white feminists need to reckon with in order for them to move forward. If they ever decide to move forward.

You can't decry #NotAllMen on one hand, and then go "it wasn't us!" when they ask you for receipts.

It might not be about assigning blame but in many cases peoples emotions get the best of them (for good reasons) and the way they present their argument comes across as blame and then your starting your interaction with them on the defensive however misguided that defensiveness may be. As I said before my opinion which I think is backed by reality more often than I wish is that far more people only care about what is affecting them personally and nothing else really matters.

Black/Spanish/white/Asian (most of the US) people don't show up to fight with Native Americans on issues that are primarily ours because our issues do not always have a direct impact on them. Should I hold them all accountable because they don't care about our issues? Should I look down on the ones who do stand with us because a majority doesn't care?

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

I don't pretend to care, I do care. Just because I can talk about it without a bunch of buzzwords and twitter hastags and limp-wristed oratory doesn't mean I don't support the cause of equal rights. If you want to call me a villain, feel free. Unlike others I don't have thin skin, I don't really care what you think of myself, white people, or anyone else in general. But it all starts with engagement of reality, not constructing a new one in your head and then complaining when the real thing doesn't measure up.

I mean

White people will be a minority eventually, right in time with the "just take it slow" approach that so many "allies" seem to espouse, so there's your reality lol

 

[Kelsdesu]

Love that picture and tweet.

 

[Deepwater]

As an outsider (Spaniard here), I was wondering something and I know I might be missing something.
I will ask this assuming most of you defending the issue at hand are somewhat in the same line of thought.

There seems to be a big concern and anger with white people voting for Trump, but you also don't want white people to help your cause since some can be very arrogant or condescending.
What is the goal for all these protests? Show the discomfort against a certain issue, or be able to gather the numbers in order to make a change?
To me it feels like most people in general are doing this in order to help with some outliers being arrogant or whatever they might be. Wouldn't you want any help possible in order to become as large a united group as possible?

Again, it's an honest question since I know I'm missing many things regarding this issue but I find it interesting that this is happening.

The best way I can put it, is comparing it to Men and feminism. There are a LOT of feminists that will say, out of context, very inflammatory towards men. Many times they will not make the distinction to say "some" or "not all" men. Should I, as a man who tries not to be sexist and oppressive of women, be upset that these women might be painting me in a bad light through generalized statements?

The answer is no. Because at the end of the day, the best way to be an ally to a person/group is to ask them how do they want you to help. When you're dealing with power structures, you want to empower and center the most marginalized if you are a part of the oppressing class. You don't want to be a "savior", although I can help the feminist cause in many ways a woman can't, because, again, this isn't about me. Many times allies (whether it be men to women, white to black, straight to gay, etc) approach the people they desire to help and feel that they are the experts on how to get them free. They feel that, because they are "helping" that the marginalized individual should be grateful that they would risk their status amongst the oppressive class to free them from oppression.

Many people who have not had to struggle under multiple identities tend to treat social justice through a pragmatic lens, and not a radical lens. This pragmatism leads them to believe that the support of people from the oppressive class (white people, men, etc) is the surefire, correct, and only way to end oppression. This, however is wrong. As a black man, I don't want help from a white person who wants a thank you for helping me. But this is going into very radical dogma of oppressed people. An ally should want to do everything they can do support the self determination of who they are helping. Many people think I should be grateful the white person is helping me at all, I mean, why shouldn't I be? Benevolent White people have no obligation to help me. It's thought paradigms like that, that lead to resentment. If I punch you in the face, and I then help you up, why am I entitled to your gratitude?

Back to the Men/Feminism example. As a Man, I believe in the empowerment and self determination of women. That means that I do not get upset when angry women start "man bashing", I do not center my opinions on what women should do to reduce their oppression, and I do not make their struggle about my feelings as a man. I will always support women, because that is what I know to be right and true. And I will take time to sit and listen when they have critique, harsh or soft, about me or other men. Because as a man, thats the very least I can do.

 

[LionPride]

It might not be about assigning blame but in many cases peoples emotions get the best of them (for good reasons) and the way they present their argument comes across as blame. As I said before my opinion which I think is backed by reality more often than I wish like is that far more people only care about what is effecting them personally and nothing else really matters.

Black/Spanish/white/Asian (most of the US) people don't show up to fight with Native Americans on issues that are primarily ours because our issues do not always have a direct impact on them. Should I hold them all accountable because they don't care about our issues? Should I look down on the ones who do stand with us because a majority doesn't care?

Most people don't show up for Native American/American Indian issues because they are ignorant, because we don't learn shit in schools. Not because they don't care. With the Dakota Pipeline, I saw a lot of white people protesting with Natives. Bet if more people were up to what happens to Native Americans, more would fight for their issues. I fight for Hispanic/Latino, Black, Native Americans, Asian, any minority equality because we should all be equal here

The best way I can put it, is comparing it to Men and feminism. There are a LOT of feminists that will say, out of context, very inflammatory towards men. Many times they will not make the distinction to say "some" or "not all" men. Should I, as a man who tries not to be sexist and oppressive of women, be upset that these women might be painting me in a bad light through generalized statements?

The answer is no. Because at the end of the day, the best way to be an ally to a person/group is to ask them how do they want you to help. When you're dealing with power structures, you want to empower and center the most marginalized if you are a part of the oppressing class. You don't want to be a "savior", although I can help the feminist cause in many ways a woman can't, because, again, this isn't about me. Many times allies (whether it be men to women, white to black, straight to gay, etc) approach the people they desire to help and feel that they are the experts on how to get them free. They feel that, because they are "helping" that the marginalized individual should be grateful that they would risk their status amongst the oppressive class to free them from oppression.

Many people who have not had to struggle under multiple identities tend to treat social justice through a pragmatic lens, and not a radical lens. This pragmatism leads them to believe that the support of people from the oppressive class (white people, men, etc) is the surefire, correct, and only way to end oppression. This, however is wrong. As a black man, I don't want help from a white person who wants a thank you for helping me. But this is going into very radical dogma of oppressed people. An ally should want to do everything they can do support the self determination of who they are helping. Many people think I should be grateful the white person is helping me at all, I mean, why shouldn't I be? Benevolent White people have no obligation to help me. It's thought paradigms like that, that lead to resentment. If I punch you in the face, and I then help you up, why am I entitled to your gratitude?

Back to the Men/Feminism example. As a Man, I believe in the empowerment and self determination of women. That means that I do not get upset when angry women start "man bashing", I do not center my opinions on what women should do to reduce their oppression, and I do not make their struggle about my feelings as a man. I will always support women, because that is what I know to be right and true. And I will take time to sit and listen when they have critique, harsh or soft, about me or other men. Because as a man, thats the very least I can do.

RETWEET

 

[theignoramus]

I'm not being arrogant, I'm being real. It's a shitty situation but it's how it is. Slavery in the U.S. ended because one group of white people decided to stop and fought another over it. Civil Rights legislation throughout American history has been passed with nearly all-white congresses and supreme courts. White people have always played a huge moving role in the equality movement, because white people (not the monolith, individuals) tend to hold most of the power to get these things decided. It's always been about Black People convincing White People about why they should treat them equally. Humans in general have trouble doing things just because "It's the right thing to do". Hell, it's rarity is why we consider it to be a virtue.

Or, let me put it this way. If you could do it yourself, it would be done by now.

This post is racist,revisionist history.

Slavery in the U.S. ended because one group of white people decided to stop and fought another over it.

The 13 Amendment was issued 2 years into the Civil War. The war did not start because "one group of White people decided to stop slavery" and the war wasnt exclusively fought by White people anyway.

Civil Rights legislation throughout American history has been passed with nearly all-white congresses and supreme courts.

Civil Rights legislation was passed because politicians reacted to Black grassroots movements and the brutal state sanctioned violence directed at that movement.

In the Cold War era, when America went around the globe, flaunting its credentials as the leader of the free world, widely televised, violent segregation undermined American credibility at home and abroad.. Make no mistake, that legislation was passed because of pressure generated from below, not some magnanimous gesture from above.

 

[Makki]

Love that picture and tweet.

Word.It really captured a lot of what cant be expressed in words as a whole.

 

[Trojita]

Are we seriously going off these Exit Polls?

Edison Research’s national election poll, which was collected from a sample of 24,537 respondents at 350 polling places.

The exit poll isn’t perfect — in part because it relies on human survey-takers at pre-selected precincts. In 2012, for example, it significantly oversampled black voters. And little under one-fifth of the respondents to the poll were early and absentee voters this year, when early voting turnout is expected to record an unprecedented share.

Data for white women 18-29 and white men 18-29 weren’t reported.

Wooooooooooooow. We are arguing over numbers that aren't likely even accurate.

 

[plagiarize]

I'm a white woman who voted for Clinton, surrounded by white women who voted for Trump. The way conversations were going before election day, I was convinced these women would vote against their party to prevent a misogynist from getting in. You could say I was shocked and disappointed.

I have a responsibility to talk to these women, not only in my own self-interest, but for the minorities who will suffer from their dumb decision.

In other words, I see that sign in the OP as being directed at those like me, and I'm okay with that.

That being said, comments like the Tweet appear to be attacking the "47%" directly, as if they themselves are responsible for everyone in their demographic, which isn't very helpful.

Thank you for continuing the fight.

 

[Ordinaryundone]

I mean

White people will be a minority eventually, right in time with the "just take it slow" approach that so many "allies" seem to espouse, so there's your reality lol

And then maybe we can all move forward. Though one wonders what we'll argue about then.

Probably tariffs. If there is one thing everyone hates it's tariffs. And commercials during football.

 

[King Tubby]

It's not about assigning blame to the people marching next to you, it's a call for them to realize that when push came to shove with regard to privilege vs gender, a majority of white women voted to preserve their privilege. That is something white feminists need to reckon with in order for them to move forward. If they ever decide to move forward.

You can't decry #NotAllMen on one hand, and then go "it wasn't us!" when they ask you for receipts.

I would wager any amount of money that the vast majority of white feminists did not vote for Trump. So why lay it at their feet? Air your grievances towards white evangelicals and the like. We're talking about groups of people so different that in many cases the only thing they have in common is being white or women.

 

[UberTag]

Wooooooooooooow. We are arguing over numbers that aren't likely even accurate.

Like I said earlier, the numbers are garbage. Arguing over them has as much merit as Donald Trump's freakouts over losing the popular vote or how many people showed up to his Devotion Day Sweet 16 party.

It's pointless and muddying the issue.

 

[Staccat0]

And then maybe we can all move forward. Though one wonders what we'll argue about then.

Probably tariffs. If there is one thing everyone hates it's tariffs. And commercials during football.

I fucking love commercials during football

 

[Crocodile]

That's the problem, the overzealous people are the ones that end up getting focus which leads to those triggered reactions from white people. Trust me I'm not saying every argument needs to be sunshine and rainbows but people really need to try hard to not let emotion take over and try to always look at the biggest possible picture, how can what I say get this person to think about my view point. Just pissing someone off does no good. Just straight up labeling someone right away normally leads to no progress and zero thoughts about the other person's opinion.

People need to play the long game on complicated social matters, they need to slowly burn in their views and not be so hyper aggressive and spiteful. You can't just change someones opinion on something instantly and you most certainly can't get people to think about your view point if you are just screaming in their faces how wrong they are.

There are times and places for that of course sometimes agressively nonstop is a good thing. But in my mind I'm hoping the BLM movement is around for 10 even 20 years slowly pushing towards equal rights and equal treatments. Because that's how a society as a whole typically moves forward, not instantly but a nice slow burn of progression. Of course their are moments in history that things change very fast. But this is something that has been around for hundreds of years and longer and for women's rights stuff since the dawn of man and human societies

Unfortunately what I've seen is that you can be as nice and proper as you want but some/many people just won't want to give you the time of day. I'm sure you're familiar with respectability politics right? It's still alive today. No matter how nice people are, just talking about racial inequality (and other major issues) makes people uncomfortable. The Women's March had no arrests anywhere in the country but you still had people being pissy about it. There's literally now way for those side of social justice to win on this axis and I think history has proven it not to really matter.

That's not the only reason. You're promoting the same kind of thinking that lost the election.

Progressivism isn't about helping any one group of people, it's about ending discrimination in general, because it hurts everyone. The concept of privilege is a genius way of explaining why the fight for progressivism isn't just the fight of black people, women, or LGBT people, but everyone's fight.

The only problem is that no one has come up with a good way of explaining privilege to poor white people without making them think that they are being attacked, which is the exact opposite of what the idea should do. I truly believe that if someone could somehow explain the concept of privilege to poor whites, they would see that BLM and other protest groups are their allies, not just neutral, or even opposed.

The kind of divisive ideas you've been describing in this thread are going to make things worse in this regard, not better, because it's just going to confirm to these people that progressivism is about bringing white people down to pull black people up, when that's not true at all.

"The top 1% are pitting poor blacks against poor whites while they laugh all the way to the bank" would be a good place to start. It's a tricky thing to do because things like White Privilege or White Fragility are real things - you can't just ignore them. Not taking about racial issues at all is also not acceptable. The more monolithic nature of the Republican party makes things a bit easier for them.

Focusing on income inequality was the right move because it affects everyone. Once we get liberals in office, we can begin to tackle the issue of systemic racism. It's not happening before then unfortunately. We have to accept that we need ignorant racists to vote blue to institute positive change in this country. We can't just say "we don't need you because you're ignorant and don't understand". We need fucking everybody we can get. These issues need immediate attention, especially those related to the environment and climate change. Hundreds of thousands of people are going to be displaced due to rising sea levels, and persons of color are going to be disproportionately affected.

So you can take an ethical stand and say you don't need certain people. But black people need those people to vote democratic. There's no way around it.

Racial inequality and income inequality are strongly linked however. Part of the reason Republicans keep winning votes from lower and middle class white people even though their policies hurt lower and middle class white people is because they can sell white voters that "immigrants took your jobs" or "lazy blacks are taking your welfare", etc. even though white people (especially in Red States) are the biggest beneficiary of welfare programs just due to their numbers. You can't just ignore racism while addressing income inequality - you have to tackle both at the same time. You also have to remember that women and minorities are the core demographic of the Democratic party. As we saw this election, if you don't energize your base you will lose and if you don't put issues of race near the forefront of your campaign you aren't going to energize your base.

If you are wondering "man that seems hard to do!", you would be correct.

 

[Deepwater]

It might not be about assigning blame but in many cases peoples emotions get the best of them (for good reasons) and the way they present their argument comes across as blame and then your starting your interaction with them on the defensive however misguided that defensiveness may be. As I said before my opinion which I think is backed by reality more often than I wish is that far more people only care about what is affecting them personally and nothing else really matters.

Black/Spanish/white/Asian (most of the US) people don't show up to fight with Native Americans on issues that are primarily ours because our issues do not always have a direct impact on them. Should I hold them all accountable because they don't care about our issues? Should I look down on the ones who do stand with us because a majority doesn't care?

Black/Hispanic people typically do have lots of native ancestry (myself included). But they are not in the oppressing class of Native Americans. We residing on their land, but we were forced here not of our own free will

White people on the other hand...

 

[FF Seraphim]

Man you guys are so getting 8 years of Trump.

Thats what Im getting out of all ofthis. Hopefully im wrong.

 

[Stinkles]

Why are we mad at white women who voted basically against their own interests at the same rate as their male counterparts .

Blaming your co-marchers for having a vigina is just as dumb as voting for trump. You think the women on that march secretly voted for Trump but just like going on marches?

The blame attribution post election has been shocking. The right wing is probably laughing at this autocannibalism frenzy.

 

[Valhelm]

I'm not being arrogant, I'm being real. It's a shitty situation but it's how it is. Slavery in the U.S. ended because one group of white people decided to stop and fought another over it. Civil Rights legislation throughout American history has been passed with nearly all-white congresses and supreme courts. White people have always played a huge moving role in the equality movement, because white people (not the monolith, individuals) tend to hold most of the power to get these things decided. It's always been about Black People convincing White People about why they should treat them equally. Humans in general have trouble doing things just because "It's the right thing to do". Hell, it's rarity is why we consider it to be a virtue.

Or, let me put it this way. If you could do it yourself, it would be done by now.

White politicians agreed to all of that kicking and screaming, and with universally massive backlash by white masses. The Ku Klux Klan, and essentially all post-Civil War racism, is just blowback from the end of slavery.

Sentiment like this is really disingenuous and offensive. While it's true that white hands signed the bills which abolished some oppressive institutions, this was solely because white people had a monopoly on power in America until quite recently. Historically, the biggest impetus for racial justice has been the activism of the oppressed.

 

[Dead Man]

Black/Hispanic people typically do have lots of native ancestry (myself included). But they are not in the oppressing class of Native Americans. We residing on their land, but we were forced here of our own free will.

White people on the other hand...

Bloody hell. A white kid and a black kid born in the US both have no choice about where they are born.

 

[QisTopTier]

Unfortunately what I've seen is that you can be as nice and proper as you want but some/many people just won't want to give you the time of day. I'm sure you're familiar with respectability politics right? It's still alive today. No matter how nice people are, just talking about racial inequality (and other major issues) makes people uncomfortable. The Women's March had no arrests anywhere in the country but you still had people being pissy about it. There's literally now way for those side of social justice to win on this axis and I think history has proven it not to really matter.

At that point let them be pissy about it and use it as a strong debate point. The bigger the positive foundation the stronger it is when it comes to game time. If your movement is extremely positive and the people denying it are easy to paint as anti humane or anti progressive it becomes easier and easier to sway people. Sadly shit doesn't work out this way 100% of the time you are correct

Bloody hell. A white kid and a black kid born in the US both have no choice about where they are born.

You didn't enter the region select cheat before your mom's egg got knocked up by your dads sperm? Shiiiiit you messed up man

 

[Deepwater]

Bloody hell. A white kid and a black kid born in the US both have no choice about where they are born.

I'm speaking in terms of power structures, and in that power structure the relationship Black people and Native Americans have is different from Native Americans and White people have.

 

[LionPride]

Why are we mad at white women who voted basically against their own interests at the same rate as their male counterparts .

Blaming your co-marchers for having a vigina is just as dumb as voting for trump. You think the women on that march secretly voted for Trump but just like going on marches?

The blame attribution post election has been shocking. The right wing is probably laughing at this autocannibalism frenzy.

Probably because it was a women's march, against a man who was caught on tape saying grab em right in the pussy and other things.

 

[Impeccable]

I am still unsure how the pages continue to tick by that people don't understand you want to empower and not shame. The people who are here helping, trying to help and want to help will and do feel alienated by shit like this. It's demotivational to be told what your doing isn't enough.

The only reason I've posted this similar statement now like four times is because it's seemingly skipped over. The dialogue is trying to be opened even on here and yet people still feel the need to drive by or say "we don't need them" and all this other stuff.

My own example of this was a year, maybe more ago there was a post about drugs and how each drug was allotted a racial bias - something I was genuinely uninformed about. All I had posted was something along the lines of "I never realized drugs had a racial bias." Now that's what I NOW know as a very ignorant statement. Immediately I was attacked and called something along the lines of ("Tommy on the hill.") instead of being informed I was assumed I was being ignorant for the sake of trolling or something. I barely wanted to learn further and when I confronted that statement I got the typical barrage of privilege, grow some skin etc. MHWilliams then clarified it for me in a VERY information and helpful post which I learned from. Him making that post is what sticks with me more than the insults. He cared that I wanted to know and helped.

Time and time again, especially on here it is seemingly okay to be extremely snarky or cool to approach things with passive aggressive comments about privilege. When all you're actually doing aside from looking cool amongst peers is alienating and making the conversation unapproachable to a lot of people who might otherwise want to be educated, learn and interact.

I honestly urge everyone to realize this isn't the time to divide and hope that at some point the dialogue changes from shame to education. Honey not vinegar.

 

[Dead Man]

I'm speaking in terms of power structures, and in that power structure the relationship Black people and Native Americans have is different from Native Americans and White people have.

Maybe your post should have said that then instead of whatever the fuck sins of the father shite you did post.

 

[megalowho]

Black/Hispanic people typically do have lots of native ancestry (myself included). But they are not in the oppressing class of Native Americans. We residing on their land, but we were forced here not of our own free will

White people on the other hand...

Those Spanish colonizers were some motherfuckers as well, they don't deserve a pass.

 

[FZZ]

I'm not being arrogant, I'm being real. It's a shitty situation but it's how it is. Slavery in the U.S. ended because one group of white people decided to stop and fought another over it. Civil Rights legislation throughout American history has been passed with nearly all-white congresses and supreme courts. White people have always played a huge moving role in the equality movement, because white people (not the monolith, individuals) tend to hold most of the power to get these things decided. It's always been about Black People convincing White People about why they should treat them equally. Humans in general have trouble doing things just because "It's the right thing to do". Hell, it's rarity is why we consider it to be a virtue.

Or, let me put it this way. If you could do it yourself, it would be done by now.

Fam step back and think for a second, reread your post.

"It is how it is"

This is why we're furious, this is why we're mad as fuck. It is true that Civil Rights legislation has been passed by nearly all whites, and who did those whites tend to be? Do they tend to be the Abraham Lincolns, the JFKs, the LBJs? Or are they the Trumps and the Reagans?

The Democratic Party has been THE party for minorities for the past few decades. Seeing white people time and time again vote in the favor of the "economy" and terrorism over women's rights, blacks rights, LGBTQ+'s rights, FUCKING HUMAN RIGHTS. It's tiring as fuck and people are mad.

White people are the "gatekeepers" and have no desire to change anything, white people decided this election. As much as myself and so many other minorities tried, Trump won.

I'm tired of appeasing, if you're feelings get hurt that's on you. I'm more fucking worried about the safety of my family and I will damn near fight anyone that wants to get in the way of their safety and well being. I will call out any and all bullshit. I will blame anyone and call out a majority (because that's what 53% is a majority) for being self centered, close minded, and hateful for disregarding the rights of millions of people for their own wants and desires.

The damage has been done, we're the ones dealing with it. Not the whites who voted Trump.

If we could do it ourselves it would damn well be done by now, but my ass isn't going to fucking pull an arm and a leg for someone that maybe wants to support my rights as an individual. Those who have my back, I have theirs. I know there are white people and voters that do and those are the ones who are with me, and I'm with them. Everyone else can go fuck off and if you're feelings are hurt I'm not going to sugar coat shit.

Also breh slavery alive and well, prison industrial complex is a bitch.

 

[QisTopTier]

Those Spanish colonizers were some motherfuckers as well, they don't deserve a pass.

I always wondered who fucked up the early modern world more, white explorers or the spanish explorers

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

What is your point? Like, I'm not only baffled at your inability to imagine a possible world where about 1 in 50 white women switch from Clinton to Trump while at the same time about 1 in 100 other voters switch from Trump to Clinton and there's slightly better turnout in several deep blue areas without much effect in key swing states, I also have no idea why you're so intent on fighting over the possibility of that world. Hell, maybe that's this world - all we've got to go on here are exit polls! But who cares? It doesn't matter to what I was saying! The possible world where Clinton wins white women with 51% but loses the election was there just to provide something concrete to help people get their heads around the unimportance of 50% as a threshold, despite all the talk about a "majority" as if that makes considering this much more urgent.

But it's not just a small change? Like, going from 43%, which is what Hillary got, to 51% is 1 in 12, not 1 in 50 or 1 in 100. For a demo that makes up 37% of the electorate.

My point is, getting to majority doesn't mean white feminism has no issues to work through, but it sure as hell would've changed the landscape of our political discourse.

 

[ReaperXL7]

Most people don't show up for Native American/American Indian issues because they are ignorant, because we don't learn shit in schools. Not because they don't care. With the Dakota Pipeline, I saw a lot of white people protesting with Natives. Bet if more people were up to what happens to Native Americans, more would fight for their issues. I fight for Hispanic/Latino, Black, Native Americans, Asian, any minority equality because we should all be equal here

Many times I have seen the statement that ignorance is not an excuse and is equal to flat racism. That's not a view I hold personally because I feel that a lot of the time people just aren't exposed to many of the things that are happening to people they aren't directly involved with, even in the modern age of the Internet people are introverted and do not seek knowledge on issues because it doesn't exsist to them.

I probably shouldn't even be in this thread because English isn't my first language and I don't always know how to interpret some things, but I attempt to educate myself on the issues that other people face so I can try to do my part in the future and correct possible personal mistakes. These threads are often good for that even when they get heated.

 

[Deepwater]

Maybe your post should have said that then instead of whatever the fuck sins of the father shite you did post.

It was very clear I meant that when I specifically mentioned oppressive class.

You shouldn't be so defensive about it.

 

[Zoc]

If that's what people get from anything I have said, then they aren't the type of people I want to talk to. If people believe I want to bring white people down, then that's on them shit

They should be, because they vote.

What lost the election was not people like me, the people who said "I don't care about this vile piece of trash, I can still vote for him despite everything he said" Lost the election for Clinton.

I didn't say people like you, I said ideas like yours. People voted for that piece of trash because they thought he was their piece of trash. Can you deny you would do the same thing in their place?

In the current system in the US, your life is more difficult if you are black, if you are a woman, or if you were born poor, among many other things.

The great thing, and the thing that should bring us together, is that if you help any of those groups, you help all of them. Help black people, and you are helping black women, and poor black people. Help poor people, and you are helping not only poor white men, but also poor black men and poor black women.

Here's my idea on how to help black people: when you meet a poor white person, tell them you'll help poor people. When you meet a white woman, tell her you'll help women. And of course, when you meet black people, don't forget to shout that you'll help black people. That will make you the most number of friends, and together, you can help each other.

 

[Ordinaryundone]

White politicians agreed to all of that kicking and screaming, and with universally massive backlash by white masses. The Ku Klux Klan, and essentially all post-Civil War racism, is just blowback from the end of slavery.

Sentiment like this is really disingenuous and offensive. While it's true that white hands signed the bills which abolished some oppressive institutions, this was solely because white people had a monopoly on power in America until quite recently. Historically, the biggest impetus for racial justice has been the activism of the oppressed.

Alright, I think I may have been callous with my wording so I'm gonna try this again. I'm not saying that white people are solely responsible for the end of slavery or for civil rights. That is stupid and obviously untrue. My observation was that A. as you say Whites held a monopoly on power during these times and B. It was not only blacks or other people of color that fought or made sacrifices for them. Whites are responsible for these troubles, but they have also been important allies and too often I see the latter's role diminished because of the former. To tie back to the OP tweet, suggesting that white women shouldn't be at these marches because 53% voted for Trump erases or diminishes the contributions of the 47% that did not. My comment on things being done already was meant to emphasize that things would have moved more quickly (or, more accurately, likely not happened at all) if white people were not in power.

Sorry if I upset anyone, I legitimately didn't mean to offend, and I apologize if I did anyway. This is why I don't usually post in these threads, it can be difficult to word your thoughts on incendiary subjects like this in a way that is kosher to everyone.

 

[Deepwater]

Those Spanish colonizers were some motherfuckers as well, they don't deserve a pass.

Non White hispanics.

 

[Dead Man]

It was very clear I meant that when I specifically mentioned oppressive class.

You shouldn't be so defensive about it.

LOL. Yeah, work on your posting skills.

Edit: Your justification for not being part of the oppressive class was your lack of choice for being a resident in the country. Make better arguments if you want people to take you seriously.

 

[Mik2121]

The best way I can put it, is comparing it to Men and feminism. There are a LOT of feminists that will say, out of context, very inflammatory towards men. Many times they will not make the distinction to say "some" or "not all" men. Should I, as a man who tries not to be sexist and oppressive of women, be upset that these women might be painting me in a bad light through generalized statements?

The answer is no. Because at the end of the day, the best way to be an ally to a person/group is to ask them how do they want you to help. When you're dealing with power structures, you want to empower and center the most marginalized if you are a part of the oppressing class. You don't want to be a "savior", although I can help the feminist cause in many ways a woman can't, because, again, this isn't about me. Many times allies (whether it be men to women, white to black, straight to gay, etc) approach the people they desire to help and feel that they are the experts on how to get them free. They feel that, because they are "helping" that the marginalized individual should be grateful that they would risk their status amongst the oppressive class to free them from oppression.

Many people who have not had to struggle under multiple identities tend to treat social justice through a pragmatic lens, and not a radical lens. This pragmatism leads them to believe that the support of people from the oppressive class (white people, men, etc) is the surefire, correct, and only way to end oppression. This, however is wrong. As a black man, I don't want help from a white person who wants a thank you for helping me. But this is going into very radical dogma of oppressed people. An ally should want to do everything they can do support the self determination of who they are helping. Many people think I should be grateful the white person is helping me at all, I mean, why shouldn't I be? Benevolent White people have no obligation to help me. It's thought paradigms like that, that lead to resentment. If I punch you in the face, and I then help you up, why am I entitled to your gratitude?

Back to the Men/Feminism example. As a Man, I believe in the empowerment and self determination of women. That means that I do not get upset when angry women start "man bashing", I do not center my opinions on what women should do to reduce their oppression, and I do not make their struggle about my feelings as a man. I will always support women, because that is what I know to be right and true. And I will take time to sit and listen when they have critique, harsh or soft, about me or other men. Because as a man, thats the very least I can do.

Thank you for the very detailed explanation. I definitely understand the feeling.
Now (and I'm not making a statement, but rather looking for agreement or disagreement with what I'm trying to understand here), in this very case with the Women's march, what did the people organizing this expect from the white women who attended? As an outsider (not just from the black women group, but from the US as a whole), I understood this to be a rally to fight for women's rights, rather than something much more nuanced as the case seemed to be. What about all the rallies done in other countries?

The way I understood many white people helping (and again, this is an outsider's view), wasn't so much that you need the support of the people from the oppressive class, but rather from the majority in the country. That's pretty much needed (by simple numbers, I mean) in order to get some change on a national level, right? I understand and agree that for an issue regarding black women (or black people in general), you should be the people in charge of the movement though.
I couldn't think of a nicer way to word the phrase above so I hope it didn't sound too weird. I completely agree with the stuff quoted above so I'm not trying to propose a different view or something like that.

 

[King Tubby]

It was very clear I meant that when I specifically mentioned oppressive class.

You shouldn't be so defensive about it.

And yet people do get defensive when you speak in generalities without qualifiers. It's almost like it's human nature or something.

 

[Deepwater]

And yet people do get defensive when you speak in generalities without qualifiers. It's almost like it's human nature or something.

LOL. Yeah, work on your posting skills.

When people tend to speak about oppression they are speaking in very macro terms. If you had any doubt about what I said, you coulda asked me to elaborate but you assumed.

If you're not used to talking about oppression and power structures, I don't know what you're doing in a thread making assumptions about that very subject lol.

 

[Stinkles]

Non White hispanics.

So straight back to pantone specific qualifiers, huh?

 

[dan2026]

8 years of Trump?
You know that orange madman is already looking for ways to change the law so he can be God Emperor of America from now til the end of time.

 

[WaffleTaco]

This thread is pretty pathetic, as a woman who happens to be white, I have never seen so many sexist comments in my life. I voted for Hillary, I did my part. I tried to convince other women, and some of it worked, some of it did not. The way we lose is if we fight amongst each other. Stronger Together was Hillary's campaign slogan. We are not being together and unified, we are becoming disenfranchised finger pointers and that won't help anyone.

 

[Dead Man]

When people tend to speak about oppression they are speaking in very macro terms. If you had any doubt about what I said, you coulda asked me to elaborate but you assumed.

If you're not used to talking about oppression and power structures, I don't know what you're doing in a thread making assumptions about that very subject lol.

Talk about assumptions. You posted at best an unclear post and are now assuming I am ignorant about the subject. Good day to you, too/

 

[Deepwater]

So straight back to pantone specific qualifiers, huh?

When those qualifiers matter in real time for every day people, yes.

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

You seem so focused on the category of "white women". Why? Why not split it into too more specific categories?:

White College Educated Women: Actually voted for Hillary. For reference they voted for Romney in 2012 so this is actually a big deal.

White Non-College Educated Women: Voted pretty much like their male counterparts, which is to say HEAVILY for Trump. THIS is the group that needs to be questioned.

Does the same discrepancy among Latinx/Black women with college degrees vs. no degrees exist?

Sure, you (the proverbial white feminist) did not vote for Trump, but what about your aunt, your cousin, your grandmother? If they're not asking themselves that question, they need to start soon. All I'm saying.

 

[Deepwater]

Talk about assumptions. You posted at best an unclear post and are now assuming I am ignorant about the subject. Good day to you, too/

Saying that black people can't oppress native americans but white people can which affects the dynamics between the groups is unclear? Because that's exactly what I said.

 

[theignoramus]

Alright, I think I may have been callous with my wording so I'm gonna try this again. I'm not saying that white people are solely responsible for the end of slavery or for civil rights. That is stupid and obviously untrue. My observation was that A. as you say Whites held a monopoly on power during these times and B. It was not only blacks or other people of color that fought or made sacrifices for them. Whites are responsible for these troubles, but they have also been important allies and too often I see the latter's role diminished because of the former. To tie back to the OP tweet, suggesting that white women shouldn't be at these marches because 53% voted for Trump erases or diminishes the contributions of the 47% that did not. My comment on things being done already was meant to emphasize that things would have moved more quickly (or, more accurately, likely not happened at all) if white people were not in power.

Sorry if I upset anyone, I legitimately didn't mean to offend, and I apologize if I did anyway. This is why I don't usually post in these threads, it can be difficult to word your thoughts on incendiary subjects like this in a way that is kosher to everyone.

If it's one thing White people dont get enough of, it's credit for helping out minorities, goddamit.
Not like there isnt a whole damn library's worth of movies, commentary and literature dedicated to "under-appreciated" Whites helping out the oppressed.

 

[Stinkles]

When those qualifiers matter in real time for every day people, yes.

You just claimed you weren't generalizing though.

 

[King Tubby]

When people tend to speak about oppression they are speaking in very macro terms. If you had any doubt about what I said, you coulda asked me to elaborate but you assumed.

If you're not used to talking about oppression and power structures, I don't know what you're doing in a thread making assumptions about that very subject lol.

The point is that most people aren't familiar with this kind of discussion. What's more, elections are won and lost at the margins. Making general statements generally increases resentment and isn't necessary. Republicans don't care if you are down with conservative dogma. They just want you to vote red or not at all. Strange coincidence that they control every branch of government.