Support NeoGAF

[GrizzleBoy]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brexit-white-paper-sovereignty_uk_5893457fe4b0302a153d4b6e

Arguments for leaving the EU - from immigration to regulation - rested on the idea that EU membership eroded parliament's sovereignty.

The day after MPs voted overwhelmingly to trigger Brexit, the Government published its much-anticipated 77-page White Paper on how we will leave the EU that bizarrely says: ”Whilst parliament has remained sovereign throughout our membership of the EU, it has not always felt like that."

So all of a sudden, the day AFTER agreeing to trigger article 50, a year or so AFTER leave/remain started their arguments to the people, the government quietly decides to tell us, "oh by the way, parliamentary sovereignty has never been an actual issue".

Coupled with the fact the U.K. Immigration authorities have had since the early 2000s, the ability to remove EU citizens who hadnt got a job after a couple of months of being in the U.K., but just didn't use it because.......? Reasons?

What was the reason for leaving again?

EU states already have the ability to remove people who come to the country and don't find work within 6 months.

And loss of parliamentary sovereignty, never actually existed?

What are we doing?

 

[daxy]

Politicians lying for political gain to the detriment of (uninformed and gullible) citizens. News at 11.

 

[ClosingADoor]

I seriously can not come up with any reason they gave that turned out to be true.

 

[Steel]

But it didn't feel like parliament was sovereign. Think about people's feelings!

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

None of this matters anymore, the only thing that matters is the fallout and that voters should be blamed for the negative effects of their decisions, because we damn well have the right.

 

[Moosichu]

It's too late now.

 

[HazySaiyan]

Pretty much everything the Leave campaign said was horseshit

 

[Xater]

Feelings > facts and common sense

 

[Ark]

B-b-b-but the daily mail and the sun said Europe was evil!

 

[d9b]

 

[slavesnyder]

There's a reason why elected politicians should take decisions, and not the people directly.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Well the white paper is wrong, not the argument during the campaign. All international agreements and groups curtail the sovereignty of the countries involved to some degree, whether it's the EU setting immigration policy or NATO obligating member states into war if one is attacked. The idea is that this loss of sovereignty is worth it for the benefits it gives you, but it is still a loss of sovereignty.

 

[Commander Jameson]

There's a reason why elected politicians should take decisions, and not the people directly.

Sadly, elected politicians allowed the people to make the decision directly.

 

[SporeCrawler]

B-b-b-but the daily mail and the sun said Europe was evil!

Who will be the culprits now? I know lets blame it on migrants

 

[DarthMasta]

Do you seriously expect any politician anywhere in a democratic country to come out and say "You morons were duped, you seriously shouldn't be allowed to vote, what a bunch of idiots, we're not doing what you ignorant asses voted for?".

Okay, you could probably say it in a nicer way, maybe something sarcastic, but at the end of the day the public expects their vote to be listened to, and it's either do it now, wait until they vote someone in who will do it or spend who knows how many resources reeducating them to have the "right" opinion.

 

[Zaph]

Largest act of self-harm in modern British history partially because successive governments allowed the media to blame the EU for everything as it conveniently scapegoated their own shitty governing and decision making.

The more headlines there were about EU bendy bananas, the less there were about the criminal lack of housing and infrastructure development for decades.

Who will be the culprits now? I know lets blame it on migrants

Still the EU - Brexit has given them at least 10 years of negotiations to write headlines about.

 

[d9b]

Who will be the culprits now? I know lets blame it on migrants

Scotland.

 

[Mimosa97]

Is it true that states have the right to deport EU citizens if they've been unemployed for 6 months ? Even if they don't claim benefits ? That's fucked up if through. Either there's free movement or there isn't.

 

[Maedre]

I seriously can not come up with any reason they gave that turned out to be true.

The UK will only loose in every thinkable instance.

 

[runningjoke]

Sadly, elected politicians allowed the people to make the decision directly.

They promised a referendum hoping it would get them elected

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

When the bill was passed, you could hear one MP loudly saying 'Suicide!'.

Im glad my MP voted against.

 

[Commander Jameson]

Is it true that states have the right to deport EU citizens if they've been unemployed for 6 months ? Even if they don't claim benefits ? That's fucked up if through. Either there's free movement or there isn't.

I think it is free movement of labour not people though.

 

[CyclopsRock]

I think it is free movement of labour not people though.

To my knowledge though you don't even need to tell anyone - your own government or your new host country - that you have moved. You can just rent a flat in Paris or London or Brugge just like a French, British or Belgian person and that's that. There's no big register you need to sign.

 

[Machina]

Where's that gif of Farage in the EU Parliament

 

[Tovarisc]

So at the end it was about some old dudes having their feelings hurt and making up some bullshit so they have excuse to pick up their toys and leave the sandbox.

Edit:

Where's that gif of Farage in the EU Parliament

http://i.imgur.com/9JA7Jxd.gifv

?

 

[Mimosa97]

I think it is free movement of labour not people though.

it's quite the opposite actually. You're free to live in any country in the EU as long as you're an EU citizen. That's like the whole purpose of free movement.

 

[kiguel182]

UK had the most independence and power from any EU countries. It wasn't even comparable.

 

[TatteredHat]

UK had the most independence and power from any EU countries. It wasn't even comparable.

We don't understand, they were being ripped off with their extraordinarily good additional benefits all along.

 

[kiguel182]

To my knowledge though you don't even need to tell anyone - your own government or your new host country - that you have moved. You can just rent a flat in Paris or London or Brugge just like a French, British or Belgian person and that's that. There's no big register you need to sign.

That's not true. There's burocracy involved if you want to work and move to a country.

 

[Joni]

The UK is finally catching up to what the rest of the EU already knew: it doesn't make any god damn sense unless you want to kick out working EU workers. And that only makes sense for racists, because they keep the economy running.

To my knowledge though you don't even need to tell anyone - your own government or your new host country - that you have moved. You can just rent a flat in Paris or London or Brugge just like a French, British or Belgian person and that's that. There's no big register you need to sign.

Well, you do somewhat, you have to register at city hall/the police station if the country requires so. But that is a requirement for everyone in that country, even people from that country.

 

[Xando]

Project Fear though

That's not true. There's burocracy involved if you want to work and move to a country.

To my knowledge all you have to do is register that you are living in that country at the local townhall (Atleast in germany).

If you want benefits there's a lot of burocracy involved though

 

[kmag]

Well the white paper is wrong, not the argument during the campaign. All international agreements and groups curtail the sovereignty of the countries involved to some degree, whether it's the EU setting immigration policy or NATO obligating member states into war if one is attacked. The idea is that this loss of sovereignty is worth it for the benefits it gives you, but it is still a loss of sovereignty.

You don't lose sovereignty, international agreements and treaties merely set the price of exerting your sovereignty for particular pre-agreed issues. You're still able to do everything you could before if you're willing to pay that price (generally the loss of benefit from the agreement).

 

[axisofweevils]

So at the end it was about some old dudes having their feelings hurt and making up some bullshit so they have excuse to pick up their toys and leave the sandbox.

Edit:

http://i.imgur.com/9JA7Jxd.gifv

?

The very definition of Snowflakes.

 

[Theonik]

This is what happens when you use the EU and your populace's rampant xenophobia as a scapegoat for more than 30 years with complete disregards for any facts whatsoever.

It was basically impossible for the Tories to argue the case for the EU without being seen by the populace as huge liars so now they have to say 'lol none of this was true' but it doesn't matter. The damage was long done.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

 

[Machina]

So at the end it was about some old dudes having their feelings hurt and making up some bullshit so they have excuse to pick up their toys and leave the sandbox.

Edit:

http://i.imgur.com/9JA7Jxd.gifv

?

I actually meant this one but yours works brilliantly too Tovarisc

 

[kmag]

it's quite the opposite actually. You're free to live in any country in the EU as long as you're an EU citizen. That's like the whole purpose of free movement.

You're free to live in any country in the EU as long as you're an EU citizen who can support themselves, otherwise you can be returned to your original nation after 3 months.

For stays of under three months: the only requirement for Union citizens is that they possess a valid identity document or passport. The host Member State may require the persons concerned to register their presence in the country within a reasonable and non-discriminatory period of time.

For stays of over three months: the right of residence is subject to certain conditions. EU citizens and their family members — if not working — must have sufficient resources and sickness insurance to ensure that they do not become a burden on the social services of the host Member State during their stay. Union citizens do not need residence permits, although Member States may require them to register with the authorities. Family members of Union citizens who are not nationals of a Member State must apply for a residence permit, valid for the duration of their stay or a five-year period.

Right of permanent residence: the directive gives Union citizens the right of permanent residence in the host Member State after a five-year period of uninterrupted legal residence, provided that an expulsion decision has not been enforced against them. This right of permanent residence is no longer subject to any conditions. The same rule applies to family members who are not nationals of a Member State and who have lived with a Union citizen for five years. The right of permanent residence is lost only in the event of more than two successive years’ absence from the host Member State.
Restrictions on the right of entry and the right of residence: Union citizens or members of their family may be expelled from the host Member State on grounds of public policy, public security or public health. Under no circumstances may an expulsion decision be taken on economic grounds. Measures affecting freedom of movement and residence must comply with the proportionality principle and be based exclusively on the personal conduct of the individual concerned. Such conduct must represent a sufficiently serious and present threat affecting the fundamental interests of the state. Previous criminal convictions do not automatically justify expulsion. The mere fact that the entry documents used by the individual concerned have expired does not constitute grounds for such a measure. Only in exceptional circumstances, for overriding considerations of public security, can expulsion orders be served on a Union citizen if he/she has resided in the host country for ten years or if he/she is a minor. Lifelong exclusion orders may not be issued under any circumstances and persons concerned by exclusion orders may apply for a review after three years. They also have access to judicial review and, where relevant, administrative review in the host Member State.

 

[kiguel182]

Project Fear though


To my knowledge all you have to do is register that you are living in that country at the local townhall (Atleast in germany).

If you want benefits there's a lot of burocracy involved though

I had a friend moving to Germany and he did have to do some stuff but he is also working there so that's part of it.

Even if it's just registering it's still more than just renting an house and not telling anyone. If you need to sign stuff it's more than just setting your bags in.

 

[B-B-Bomba!]

This is a semantic issue, not a gotcha at all

 

[DarthMasta]

Short of being invaded, countries in the EU are sovereign.

Any country could go "Fuck this rule, fuck this other rule, fuck this rule in particular!". Of course, if you do that, then the rest of the countries are also in their sovereign right to do the same, and while you might enjoy "Poles can't enter Britain", maybe "British products are forbidden in the rest of the EU" would be less enjoyed...

 

[Altairre]

Yet they're still going through with it because if the people say you have to shoot yourself in the foot I guess you gotta shoot yourself in the foot. Just don't complain how difficult walking is all of the sudden.

 

[kmag]

To my knowledge though you don't even need to tell anyone - your own government or your new host country - that you have moved. You can just rent a flat in Paris or London or Brugge just like a French, British or Belgian person and that's that. There's no big register you need to sign.

There's nothing in the EU treaties which prohibit registration, the only thing forbidden is actual residence permits but member states can and do require registration of EU nationals.

 

[Oblong Schlong]

I hate the small-minded fools of my country. Wailing and flailing against myths and misunderstandings, some merely hope for others to join them in their misery.

I know the vote was not simply along age lines, but I think my generation will do a better job than this embarrassing lot. I hope they will.

 

[Z3K]

You're free to live in any country in the EU as long as you're an EU citizen who can support themselves, otherwise you can be returned to your original nation after 3 months.

Not quite true for the UK

If you are an EEA national and exercising a Treaty right to seek and take up work, you need to show that you have a ‘right to reside’ (can legally live here) and are ‘habitually resident’ (this is the place where you normally live) in the UK, the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man or the Republic of Ireland.

From 1 January 2014, before you can claim income based Jobseeker’s Allowance you must have been living in the UK, the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man or the Republic of Ireland for the three months immediately before making your claim for Jobseeker’s Allowance.

From 1 April 2014, EEA jobseekers will not be able to claim Housing Benefit (if you are already receiving income based Jobseeker’s Allowance and Housing Benefit, this will not apply to you).

From 1 November 2014, EEA nationals with ‘jobseeker’ residency status will be able to claim income-based Jobseeker’s Allowance for a maximum of six months. EEA nationals with ‘retained worker’ residency status will be able to claim income-based Jobseeker’s Allowance for a maximum of nine months.

Both EEA jobseekers and EEA retained workers will undergo a Genuine Prospect of Work assessment at three and six months respectively.

From 1 January 2014, before an EEA National or returning UK National can claim income based Jobseekers Allowance they must have been living in the UK, the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man or the Republic of Ireland for the three months immediately before making your claim for Jobseekers Allowance.

From 1 April 2014, EEA jobseekers will not be able to claim Housing Benefit. If you are already receiving income based Jobseeker’s Allowance and Housing Benefit this will not apply to you.

 

[Ushojax]

Feelings will always trump facts when it comes to the average person, this is not new.

 

[Tovarisc]

Feelings will always trump facts when it comes to the average person, this is not new.

Well didn't Trump use "Feelings are new facts" type of platform during campaign? Looks like it worked.

 

[CyclopsRock]

You don't lose sovereignty, international agreements and treaties merely set the price of exerting your sovereignty for particular pre-agreed issues. You're still able to do everything you could before if you're willing to pay that price (generally the loss of benefit from the agreement).

Well OK yeah, in the same way that technically I'm allowed to go and shoot people in a shopping center as long as I'm willing to pay the price, which is likely a bullet in the head courtesy of CO19 or a lifetime in prison. But for all intents and purposes I don't think that's a meaningful argument to make because if we take that as a legitimate POV then all the referendum was was a national decision to execute that exertion of our sovereignty. Eitherway, it's an issue of sovereignty.

 

[Opus Angelorum]

We left because the NHS will receive a huge amount on investment.

Right guys? Guys?

...

 

[LeonSPBR]

What are we doing?

Good question, when you guys figure that out, share with the rest of the world.

 

[Ushojax]

We left because the NHS will receive a huge amount on investment.

Right guys? Guys?

...

Tremendous, tremendous investment, believe me.