That entire issue was Sasha's fault, dammit. Beckett was right.
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Transgender 101: A Starter Guide
- Thread starter TenCentCoast
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That entire issue was Sasha's fault, dammit. Beckett was right.
BrightLightLava
Unconfirmed Member
Oh, yeah. I didn't think Tatiana could quite pull that off.
Well yeah, technically. I just think he was too mean.
Sorry, that wasn't really the point of my post. I just put that there to try and clarify. The point was, that poster was into men and women. They didn't specify any body types or anything, they just said, "I'm into cis men and women" roughly. And when trans people are brought up, they suddenly had an issue with the parts they like about men and women on these trans people.
Asking an honest question, hopefully this doesn't sound hateful. I have had thoughts about this, so the trans women on some of the Giant Bomb casts mentioned on an episode (I think Danswers) that while on a first date with a women told her they had transitioned to female, and the date immediately said the date was over, and on the podcast said something along the lines of your shouldn't judge by a chromosome. I feel like the offended person in a scenario like that is justified if they did not know in advance.
excelsiorlef
Member
disappeared
Banned
I will try to find it and update, it is a premium cast btw if I recall correctly.
Edit:
LIke I said I don't have premium at the moment but she is tagged the following two so it should be one of them:
http://www.giantbomb.com/podcasts/danswers-15-sadantha-kaldan-returns/1600-1404/
http://www.giantbomb.com/podcasts/danswers-05-samantha-kalman/1600-1166/
Very helpful insight from someone just trying to understand another perspective.
Enter The 36 Chambers
Member
Sorry If I upset or offended anyone. I have little to no experience of these things and probably shouldn't be posting in this thread.
Is not finding someone attractive being judgmental? To use to what is my knowledge an entirely benign example: It's not someones fault if they have big ears, but it's also not someone elses fault for disliking big ears. If I don't want to date someone who has big ears because it annoys me to look at them, I don't think that's a value judgement about that person, it's just an incompatibility.
On the topic of dating it just seems like a really difficult situation. If you advertise that you're trans you'll regrettably push away people who might otherwise be totally interested in you. If you don't advertise it then you risk adverse reactions at inopportune times. Like, saying that someone being trans has absolutely nothing to do with attraction.. I just don't think that's true.
edit: I see you edited your comment.
Because not being attracted to a trans person isn't a judgment of their character. If their sex organs are a make-or-break part of the deal for the person on the date, I think that's a totally legitimate thing to base a relationship off of.
If they're an asshole about it, that's a different story. It's just really hard for me to see how "surprising" someone as a trans person could work out well.
On the topic of dating it just seems like a really difficult situation. If you advertise that you're trans you'll regrettably push away people who might otherwise be totally interested in you. If you don't advertise it then you risk adverse reactions at inopportune times. Like, saying that someone being trans has absolutely nothing to do with attraction.. I just don't think that's true.
edit: I see you edited your comment.
Because not being attracted to a trans person isn't a judgment of their character. If their sex organs are a make-or-break part of the deal for the person on the date, I think that's a totally legitimate thing to base a relationship off of.
If they're an asshole about it, that's a different story. It's just really hard for me to see how "surprising" someone as a trans person could work out well.
The lady said the comment about the chromosome part, my point is I think the person should be straight forward about it before hand because the other party may not be interested or comfortable in that situation, and I don't feel it makes them a bad person but comfort ability with sexuality is a very personal thing and what one person feels doesn't mean another has to feel the same way.
As many people have pointed out, someone being trans says nothing about their genitals
(my edit was just for grammar. forgot a question mark)
If you're going on a date with someone you're sexually interested in because of their sex organs, someone being trans says that they may or not be what they anticipate.
It seems like that is relevant, is it not?
excelsiorlef
Member
Dude you basically said it's cool for a someone to just abruptly end a date (can you imagine how painful that would be for the trans person) because someone said they were trans and place the blame on the trans person for what not properly identifying themselves?
Also this is it ok to just not want to date trans people has literally be covered in this thread ad nauseum.
Being an asshole isn't OK. It's not the trans person's fault.
But when you make a transgender 101 thread and people are coming in and asking questions about the emerging social misconceptions that will only become more and more commonplace, it seems a little mean spirited to give one word answers to people without more explanation, as if they should have known better.
What may be common sense to you or others may literally have never even crossed someones mind before.
It was literally the entire last page discussing it though
You make it sound like I created the scenario, I was just asking how others feel about what was said on the situation that occurred from the podcast.
Link to an explanation of it then? Seems like a much better solution than to be harsh and blunt in a thread that seems to be dedicated to explaining the growing understanding of trans people in the world.
Doesn't it seem to you that people may see the thread title, read the OP, and then just ask a question they have without reading the entire thread to see if it's been covered already?
It strikes me that an ornery attitude doesn't really serve anyone's best interests, at least in this thread.
"may or may not be" is the important point there. If someone is concerned about about genitalia they can ask, but that's not the scenario being described here where a date is ended the second the word "trans" is brought up.
It's also worth noting that there's a wide variety of variances in the reproductive organs of cis people (circumcision/FGM, intersex conditions, accidents, micropenis, etc) that don't receive nearly the same level of preemptive concern and hand wringing that trans people get when dating.
You said, you felt justified that the guy ended the date because she was trans. And we're saying, no. He is not.
I think people would at least do a quick skim of a thread to see if their question was already addressed. Its not like its a very long thread. Not to mention, its also on this page as well that you can see we were talking about it.
SomewhatGroovy
Banned
I disagree. You put yourself out there, asked questions and you got some responses. One takeaway from reading your posts was "these are the feelings I have" or something to that effect. I thought it was awesome that you put yourself out there to be vulnerable and open to possible criticism and judgement.
My challenge to you is to keep exploring the feelings part. Why do you feel that way? Is it a systematic bias instilled in you? Were you grouped with people that made fun of LGBT? and really, just keep digging to understand what is and what isn't in your control with regards to your feelings, where they come from and where you'll take them next. This may help you on your outlook towards others' and aspects about them they couldn't control (such as the body they were born in).
What a lot of the respondents speaking to you were trying to point out is that when you reduce a person to something they had zero control over, you perpetuate and direct a poor attitude towards others, intended or not, and while context matters in how you have come to be, intention doesn't take away the impact of an attitude (intention really is used to help determine how one should consequentially be judged ).
It was a trans woman dating another woman, thanks for reading.
excelsiorlef
Member
This thread has a litany of examples of that question being answered... This thread is about a whole lot more than just is it ok for me, my friend, whoever to not want to date a trans person...
But that's been the loop for the last couple of pages...
I have a blunt response because there wasn't even a question, it was a statement, trans people need to out themselves before even thinking of dating someone and if the other person is totally in the right to just call it off on the spot because.... no reason was even given.
Well your face is going to be red when you go back and ACTUALLY READ the persons post. But hey don't let that stop you from jumping to conclusions and judging people.
excelsiorlef
Member
?
That's exactly what the bolded says.
The onus shouldn't be on trans folks to immediately out themselves before going on a single date .
I mean, I'm not about to defend the person in that podcast. It sounds like they were an asshole. It sounds like a lot of the terrible things that happen to trans people, unjustifiably.
It just seems like when people who are legitimately curious about understanding trans people come into this thread and present such a scenario, they're not looking to defend a bigot. They have questions about a scenario in which they could envision themselves, and what is expected of them.
They said they didn't agree with the assertion, but they started by saying they had a question. Clearly they were open to reason.
They have said multiple times, that they feel the date was completely justifiable to end right there and then because she was trans.
Hi.
Thanks, to the previous user too.
A big problem is with having no support from family or friends, as I simply don't have any who I've ever been able to comfortably be myself around.
I had one girl that was a friend but she left after I finally began to reach a point where I was seriously finding myself, but she supposedly had valid reasons, though I really doubt I can trust her.
I got my hair cut and kept the bangs, plus my eyebrows, then I started walking around Boston and I was getting a bunch of looks of disgust.
I didn't understand what was going on until I was in a grocery store and I overheard a couple asking each other if I was a transsexual.
I guess it was 'cos my sweater was also somewhat effeminate.
But I'm extremely sensitive and the amount of self-scrutiny this caused pushed me into a very depressed place.
I've never really had anyone there for me so like when things go wrong there isn't any reassurance it's only suffer through.
I really don't think I could transition without support.
I'll let HBP speak for themselves but I got the feeling they were advocating the position that trans people should disclose that they're trans before going on a date with someone more than they were advocating being an asshole in the middle of a date because of said revelation.
These are actually two separate issues.
I'm legitimately not sure what I think about it disclosing your trans status, because it seems very difficult whether you do or do not.
I am sure that being a jerk in the middle of a date because someone didn't disclose it and you're uncomfortable with it is not acceptable.
excelsiorlef
Member
Questions like yours was addressed repeatedly in this relatively small thread more than once....
So in the end you asked if the action of the cis woman was ok and I said nope, because it's not ok and I felt the reasons why were laid out accurately in this thread already.
And I have also since expanded to boot
TTOOLL
Member
No. Nobody can be forced to date someone they don't want to, it doesn't matter the reason, it's personal. Everybody "chooses" who to date or not to based on some preferences. C'mon, let's not create a problem out of nowhere, please.
You think that's a problem out of nowhere?
Reread his original post.
He was saying that the person who was upset about finding out their date was trans, was justified. That was his initial argument.
TTOOLL
Member
I do, people have always "select" who they would date, what's the deal? Do I have to date even people I'm not attracted to?
excelsiorlef
Member
Who said anything about forcing anyone to do anything? We can criticize behaviour without saying the solution is to force them too do something different.
4 is a cutie
Banned
Why are you not attracted to any trans people? What quality is negative?
You don't need an excuse to be attracted or not to anyone.
Snowybreak
Member
Nevermind.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Not talking about the dating thing, just in general (but also partially about a comment about misgendering being transphobia). As I'll note, any kind of bigotry can be without malice or without hate but still be bigotry. Is it difficult to learn to get over these things? Sure, and people who work to be better in those areas I appreciate a whole lot - but it is still an issue.
QuickSilverD
Member
When people say that GAF of all places can be casually transphobic what do they mean exactly? is it just the dating thing?
Common casual transphobia(not just gaf), super generally, I'd say would be like ignoring research and experiences that trans people provide and continuing to treat something as up for debate, whether it's the dating thing for participation in sports or people going out of their way to complain "there are one billion gender identities". Often trans people just get ignored compared to other minorities and don't receive support until there's a really large argument going on. Also misgendering celebrities is common (gaf is generally pretty good at that one barring a couple people per thread that get corrected immediately). Being more nit picky some people say that a trans person is becoming the gender that they identify as when in reality they were that gender all along.
Around liberal circles there's an issue of claiming to be pro trans rights but not knowing what that entails and then fighting trans people when they are expecting help in their fights for their rights.
Basically people on GAF do the same things that others elsewhere do. GAF might be better than most places but it still has to deal with the same issues
Those are good ones. With the second I even got it from my therapist. The whole "are you sure?" might mean well but it's not like I didn't spend years debating it in my head before *finally* feeling comfortable about coming forward and taking about it to someone
Snowybreak
Member
It mostly has to do with language and attitude. It often comes out into the open when gender roles are discussed, since that seems to be a bit of an insecurity for people. The idea of someone transitioning from female to male calls into question the legitimacy of gender roles, but also the legitimacy of the person who is transitioning.
Don't have much to say other than while in a perfect world trans people could be open the fact is the reason trans people may not say something right away dating or otherwise is because we still live in a world where a lot of courts including in America accept the trans panic defense.
For those who don't know trans panic translates to " I found out they were trans, lost control and beat/murdered them, but it's not my fault because I wasn't in control".
In this day and age this still gets people off/lesser sentences so being careful about your identity can be a dicey proposition.
For those who don't know trans panic translates to " I found out they were trans, lost control and beat/murdered them, but it's not my fault because I wasn't in control".
In this day and age this still gets people off/lesser sentences so being careful about your identity can be a dicey proposition.
lightskintwin
Banned
I do think one of the biggest issues is the lack of visibility of transgenders and any type of dialogue or "debate" over an extended period of time in the public eye. People have just now gotten over the whole gay thing, and to a lot of people this just popped out of nowhere. Obviously this is anecdotal but in my day to day experiences it seemed most people weren't even aware of transgenders yet alone contemplated their existence, rights, and how they would fit within mainstream society until the Caitlyn Jenner thing, which to some people's eyes confirmed the whole Hollyweird freakshow narrative of it.
In short, I think we're going to have a long way to go.
Butterfly Witch
Member
How can you be a feminist if you openly discriminate against other women?
A Link to the Past
Banned
I agree. It'd be no different than saying you're a progressive, but all you ever do is advocate definitively un-progressive ideas.
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