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[Principate]

Lol at everyone mentioning breath of the wild while at the same time ignoring that nintendo skipped an entire generation to release it. I guess no one should be upset with phil for deciding he'll wait until next gen to pursue that avenue. Literally the same difference.

TBF though that wasn't purposeful in some respect. It's not like it just finished this year. The delay was in large part because the Wii U was a failure and so it made sense to port it to the switch. If they hadn't it would likely released much earlier.

 

[Herp Derpington]

Well, they have a business plan and they're sticking to it. I don't fault them at all for that. Zelda sells because it's Nintendo. Have fun with those AAA 3rd party games on switch.

The PlayStation has always had a sizeable 1st party selection so this is no different. Where Sony has pivoted is gaining key 3rd party exclusives either via just marketing rights, time dlc, or both. They've adopted the MS model to a degree and combined with their solid 1st party lineup they have a much stronger sales pitch

MS has never had the broad stable of 1st party games Sony has had so they're applying the service model the company overall is adopting to the games division. It's a gamble and it's not like MS won't expand or invest in their 1st parties but they're never gonna be Sony so they have to take a different route. Again I don't blame them in the slightest and if the product is compelling enough they'll be fine.

 

[OléGunner]

I wonder if they are going to try to enter the next generation with this same attitude. Or are they going to resume trying again.

imo they do not even have the studio capability to be pumping out strictly high quality SP stuff at this moment in time (I mean they even lost Remedy who are going multiplat now far as I know).

They'd need to seriously ramp up their hiring of talent.
But they must believe why make that effort when there is easier money to be made in the short to mid term doing what we know; MP focused titles.

And again, these are the types of titles their gaming audience is hungry for so no need to pivot on their part.

 

[I'm Spartacus]

I'm really struggling to understand how this strategy (shying away from SP games and doubling down on GAAS) is supposed to bring more people to their product. Surely this only caters to people who are already there?

 

[MatrixMan.EXE]

Wouldn't it take years for any results?

It would. If Microsoft starts investing NOW, then we're not going to see the results until next generation starts.

 

[luffeN]

He said no Halo and Gears. Forza is coming.

Ah okay, thanks.

 

[jelly]

I'm really struggling to understand how this strategy (shying away from SP games and doubling down on GAAS) is supposed to bring more people to their product. Surely this only caters to people who are already there?

Also, half the userbase doesn't even play online so you are catering to half the market.

 

[wapplew]

Outside of Forza, aren't those IP's on the decline anyway? Like I said before, third parties take up most of service MP games anyway. There's only so many that people can consume. I think balancing things out with some single player games would work better for them than effectively trying to compete with third parties.

They are decline in unit sales but might increase by revenue thanks to card packs.
Phil have the numbers and that help him decide to chase after this model. Almost every games they plublish have some kind of loot box since Xbox one launch, they won't keep doing that if those failed.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

They've succeeded with the model while their SP offerings have lacked. After 3 years one service is getting pushed more by the fanbase than the other.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

I wonder if they are going to try to enter the next generation with this same attitude. Or are they going to resume trying again.

There will be some new trend to chase by then.

The PlayStation has always had a sizeable 1st party selection so this is no different. Where Sony has pivoted is gaining key 3rd party exclusives either via just marketing rights, time dlc, or both. They've adopted the MS model to a degree and combined with their solid 1st party lineup they have a much stronger sales pitch

MS has never had the broad stable of 1st party games Sony has had so they're applying the service model the company overall is adopting to the games division. It's a gamble and it's not like MS won't expand or invest in their 1st parties but they're never gonna be Sony so they have to take a different route. Again I don't blame them in the slightest and if the product is compelling enough they'll be fine.

It was mid-way into the PS2 gen when we really started to see the fruits of what Sony's WWS would become, and that was cemented in the first few years of the PS3 which is basically why no-one thinks that console is a joke anymore like how it started out. MS have been in the market for 17 years now, so it's not like they haven't had a chance to figure out what works for first-party. They just don't feel like they've had a proper vision or focus since the creative heads from the OG Xbox days left (i.e. Peter Moore, J Allard, etc).

 

[Feorax]

Yeah, that's a problem. They should be building a portfolio right now, cutting their teeth this gen with new studios and IP, leading into the next gen like Sony did instead of coasting and having little to show for it next gen.

This is especially true if MS wants to go the direction people keep saying they do and get rid of generations all together, and just have iterative hardware.

Like I said above, all this says to me is that it's unlikely Microsoft will have anything on Scorpio, bar possibly Forza, that comes close to what Ps4 Pro is already showing off in the likes of Horizon, God of War etc, even with the extra power, purely because that's generally not a priority for software taking on a "games as a service" model.

These quotes are terrible coming a few months before their brand new, super powerful hardware launches. If Scorpio doesn't have that, then it quite literally has nothing on the competition (bar 4k blu ray).

 

[ch4fx_]

Horizon & Zelda must have really made an impact at Microsoft.

..... but yea, switch your focus away from single player games. What could go wrong?

 

[GoldenCrow]

An area I think Microsoft need to invest in more is the middle ground. The games that aren't the AAA's and not the indies either. Games with good replayability that are focused on the single player market rather than the multiplayer and lots of different ideas that may or may not work. This is ultimately why I prefer Sony platform for consoles, it isn't the big named games as I don't really care for them.

 

[black070]

That is incredibly disappointing.

 

[fantomena]

Every time I read a new Phil Spencer interview, I come away having learned absolutely nothing.

Yeah, me too. I mean he's done great jobs for Xbox when it comes to features (game pass, BC, updates). However, when it comes to game I just hear lots of talk.

 

[InsaneTiger]

So expect even less big AAA single-player focused games from them?

Your avatar is the perfect reaction to the question.

 

[Gestault]

They have been late to the party with everything since they had their heads turned by the Wii during the 360 days.

"Oh look, that's making money, let's do that!"

And then by the time they actually release their version of whatever it was that they thought was hot the market is already moving on to the next thing. They need to understand that to really make serious money you need to invest and innovate in making the next big thing, but that would involve effort beyond looking at a few spreadsheets to decide what to do next.

I think you're right about how the marketing budget for the division is spent, but let's not pretend they're always chasing a tail. Considering the actual hardware sales of the Kinect, as much as I think it was totally misguided (and they should have known from the average software quality that it wasn't sustainable), I recall that thing selling a lot of units, and making them a lot of money.

Like, at least 24 million units including the bundles by the time the thing petered out, and they sold through 8 million in the first two months, which was primarily just the add-on itself. Guinness confirmed it as their fastest-selling consumer electronics device (though no clue if that's changed since then).

 

[DriftingSpirit]

I'm really struggling to understand how this strategy (shying away from SP games and doubling down on GAAS) is supposed to bring more people to their product. Surely this only caters to people who are already there?

That is what I feel like MS is doing overall. They want to get the most out of the people already there rather than grab people who are not interested in what they currently do.

Ah okay, thanks.

No problem!

They've succeeded with the model while their SP offerings have lacked. After 3 years one service is getting pushed more by the fanbase than the other.

I think it is a matter of game quality. MS needs to produce really good to great SP games. It isn't enough to have games that are perceived as being okay to decent like Ryse, Quantum Break, etc...

 

[Floody]

His comments about Single Player games don't fill me with much excitement about the future of Xbox. I imagine they plan on doubling down on GaaS and I'm already sick of every game trying to sell me loot boxes, that it almost immediately turns me off them. Also, I have to wonder how many people are even willing to spend hundreds on loot boxes over multiple games? Seems kinda shortsighted chasing the Destiny, CoD, Overwatch and GTA Online money when it's very likely those people would just stay put. Although I guess Ubi is a good example of it working, but they'd probably all just kill each other if they fight over the scraps Activision and Rockstar leave behind in the long run.

 

[Con_Smith]

I get what he's trying to say, the only problem is he has yet to truely back that shit up. Games as a service work when it's somewhat organic or for an ip created for such, not so much when you work to push it in games people never wanted or expected them to be in.

Sony will give their guys a chance to actually make somehing geared that way and experiment.

Nintendo does Nintendo

Microsoft seems to work actively towards chasing the money and it's what pushes me away. Their tactics with their deals and games seem more driven off bottom line than what gamers want (or I guess what I would want).

If they truly make the effort maybe I'll give them a shot instead of just borrowing my cousin's XOne for the few games I'm missing out on the PS4.

 

[tearsintherain]

Feel sorry for Phil, its hard to see a path where xbox catches up to PS4. Its easy to say make good games or hire good devs and give them the right amount of time and they will make a good game, but consider Horizon Zero Dawn and Mass Effect Andromeda.

HZD was made by the people who have done Killzone, and the last KZ was not received that well. A SP only game that will take place in a post apoc world featuring a female PC? MMmm, I dunno, sounds pretty dicey.

ME:A on the other hand, a sequel to a beloved series and the 4th game should be a slam dunk hit. Sure, ME:3 had some issues but they are easy to identify and not repeat. Bioware can use the Frostbite engine, so should be no tech problems at all given Battlefront, Dragon Age, Battlefield 1, etc.

Most people would have bet on ME:A being the great game and selling very well. Whoops.

End of the day, sure, your odds of success are up a lot if you hire really good people (this was probably the KEY differentiation between MEA and HZD), give them the time to finish the game to their standards, and not interfere too much but its still very much a biz where you really won't know if something works or not for years and if it doesn't work, throwing it all away is a tough call. Its frankly amazing Sony has had so many great successes with its first parties and now on top of that the multiplats that are really fantastic are favoring Sony, making it even harder for xbox to ever catch up.

 

[Empyrean Heaven]

My biggest concern is that everything going forward will be Scorpio focused. I have a 1st gen Xbox One and no 4K tv and no plan to upgrade any time soon. With the PS4 Pro, I don't feel the need to upgrade as it seems I will need 4k to notice anything, but with MS positioning Scorpio as a new generation, I'm concerned.

 

[InsaneTiger]

Phil Harrison: Microsoft making $1B bet on Xbox One games - 05-24-2013

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=565581

Yeah I will beileve it when I see it.

They mean it this time.

 

[Rolf NB]

It would. If Microsoft starts investing NOW, then we're not going to see the results until next generation starts.

We'd see job listings immediately.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

Horizon & Zelda must have really made an impact at Microsoft.

..... but yea, switch your focus away from single player games. What could go wrong?

I mean, after their massive success you would think MS might want to get something like that for themselves, but instead they seem to be moving further in the opposite direction.

 

[DriftingSpirit]

An area I think Microsoft need to invest in more is the middle ground. The games that aren't the AAA's and not the indies either. Games with good replayability that are focused on the single player market rather than the multiplayer and lots of different ideas that may or may not work. This is ultimately why I prefer Sony platform for consoles, it isn't the big named games as I don't really care for them.

I was thinking of this too. I want more stuff like Ratchet and Clank, Wipeout, Crash, Gravity Rush, etc... Stuff that supplements bigger releases like UC4 and Horizon.

I would like an AA sized action/platformer game to go with Gears. Or a action/adventure game to go along with a Halo purchase. More stuff like ReCore but with better execution.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

I think it is a matter of game quality. MS needs to produce really good to great SP games. It isn't enough to have games that are perceived as being okay to decent like Ryse, Quantum Break, etc...

But that's the point. This isn't their strength, so why keep pushing? Meanwhile, Forza, KI, Gears, and Halo DLC are doing well. The indies are filling in that niche for SP content.

 

[ForkNetwork]

I like the Xbox One, but this is incredibly worrying.

 

[illamap]

I'm really struggling to understand how this strategy (shying away from SP games and doubling down on GAAS) is supposed to bring more people to their product. Surely this only caters to people who are already there?

I think most adults, who have never really played that many games get consoles because their friends have those and they played games with them. In SP game like uncharted 4 you need like a three hour investment from beginning of the game if the gameplay isn't anything amazing versus when playing cod with your friends in split-screen you are hooked in mere minutes and possible get a console.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

They mean it this time.

For realsies. Pinky promise.

 

[jelly]

But that's the point. This isn't their strength, so why keep pushing? Meanwhile, Forza, KI, Gears, and Halo DLC are doing well. The indies are filling in that niche for SP content.

Gears bombed did it not.

It should be their strength as well as having a strength in multiplayer. Why does it have to be one or another. Variety the spice of life.

 

[wapplew]

I mean, after their massive success you would think MS might want to get something like that for themselves, but instead they seem to be moving further in the opposite direction.

To be fair, not many predicted the impact of Zelda and Horizon. By the time we know the impact, MS studio's projects already halfway in the oven.
Maybe Phil see the impact now, we'll get those single player games from MS studio in 2020.

 

[Bluenoser]

With all due respect to Phil, and MS, if the money they can make off of a game determines whether it gets made, they are screwed as far as a console maker. You get rewarded by giving people what they want. You can play a Call of Duty or a free to play MMO almost anywhere. It's the unique experiences only available on one platform that bring people to your ecosystem. Sony releasing games like The Last Guardian, despite it being very niche, and likely do to mediocre sales wise is also the reason people love Sony. They are putting creative options ahead of profit, and it's driving profit for them anyway on a larger scale by more consumers jumping on board.

Not sure why, after 16 years in the business, MS is still struggling to understand that success isn't measured by profit made on a handful of games.

 

[Feorax]

But that's the point. This isn't their strength, so why keep pushing? Meanwhile, Forza, KI, Gears, and Halo DLC are doing well. The indies are filling in that niche for SP content.

So what's the point of Scorpio then? You can see the benefits of what the Pro can do with some of the first party SP content Sony has put out, whereas it looks like pretty much everything that MS wants to double down on could be done on either an S, or a much cheaper spec than what Scorpio is offering.

 

[Rymuth]

But that's the point. This isn't their strength, so why keep pushing? Meanwhile, Forza, KI, Gears, and Halo DLC are doing well. The indies are filling in that niche for SP content.

Because of those franchises, only Forza experienced growth. This isn't an infinite well you can pump forever.

 

[Interfectum]

I think Phil might have lost the plot here.

You don't make first party GaaS games to complement Destiny, GTA Online and the rest. You make prestige titles that may or may not set the world on fire to go along with all these online, DLC heavy games.

It's worked very well for Sony so far. Uncharted, Until Dawn, Horizon, etc.

 

[digoutyoursoul]

I was thinking of this too. I want more stuff like Ratchet and Clank, Wipeout, Crash, Gravity Rush, etc... Stuff that supplements bigger releases like UC4 and Horizon.

I would like an AA sized action/platformer game to go with Gears. Or a action/adventure game to go along with a Halo purchase. More stuff like ReCore but with better execution.

Recore has great potential imo but as you said, better execution. This "definitive" edition that is supposed to be coming soon, I wonder if there are any substantial updates apart from the tank robot, for those who already own the game

 

[Lady Gaia]

I'd like to say I can't fault Phil's logic given his perspective, but it's an absolutely classic Microsoft move. If you look at every individual potential investment with a "what's in it for me?" mindset then you can reach these kinds of conclusions.

If you take a moment to step into your customers' shoes, however, things tend to look a little different. Zelda made the difference between Switch being DOA and being a hot seller with plenty of potential. Growing the ecosystem is what matters, drawing in more people to engage with your product. Revenues from third party sales will fill your coffers no matter what succeeds — so long as people are excited about and buying into your platform. Getting good at building compelling first party exclusives isn't easy, but complaining that it's hard doesn't make it easier.

It's also concerning that Phil doesn't seem to understand some of his own references. Horse Armor as a paywall in the middle of the game? WTF. It's a cosmetic item of no consequence, a long way from the kinds of pay-to-win mechanics that blight too many of the service games he's so excited about.

I'll try to keep an open mind through E3 but he's not helping. The reasons I skipped XB1 so far look like they're going to hold for Scorpio as well. If that holds true for the vast majority of holdouts then Scorpio will be a missed opportunity.

 

[BleedOrange]

Zelda that visually and technically push the limits of what the console can do

lol

 

[Okami Haundo]

Yeah, while there is a good point here about properly scheduling releases, FFXV sold well in the end of November/December. God of War will sell well. Spiderman will sell well. RDR2 will sell well. Horizon would have sold well in the Holiday season.

The issue is thought that MS is not going to bother with SP games and they cancelled Scalebound and Fable. Of course what sells the best at the end are the large MP multiplats (and GTA) and Sony is making a smart move grabbing the marketing deals. However, what various SP games that Sony produces do is they pad out the library, give customers more variety. Maybe Uncharted alone is not enough to sway someone (or Last of Us, or P5 or Horizon or Spiderman or GoW, etc...) but if they can get their multiplat AND get a great cache of other types of games to boot, why would they go to the competitor who is lacking that?

I feel like we need to rewind a bit here, because you're literally saying the same thing that I started with. I absolutely agree that Microsoft needs single-player games. I even applauded Sony's approach in this regard. They realized really early that third parties can cover them primarily.

It seems like you were moreso replying to the part where I talked about single-player focused games not being that important to me personally. I stand by that, as it wasn't meant to say that I don't think they're important at all.

I also just wanted to point out that neither Fable nor Scalebound were set to be single-player games like Horizon or Zelda. Microsoft attempted to sway development of both titles so that they were multiplayer focused. As they found out, that approach can't work for every game. I really hope that Phil learned a good lesson from both of those projects.

 

[MarveI]

Honestly if your SP games are Ryse or Quantum Break, well, then of course they are not going to sell. These are mediocre games with lots od faults. Ultimately the success of a game depends on its quality... Breath of the Wild is a masterpiece and that's why is a success. Same for horizon or nier or persona.

And also GaaS is a very competitive market and it's driven by third party games. Overwatch, Destiny, Rainbow six, Battlefield, CoD and more... it won't be easy at all for them to succeed in this market.

You get it.

Their SP games didn't sell well cause they weren't great. Simple as that.
And the MP market is owned and ruled by 3P. Look at Gears, Halo in the most played list. Not even in the top 20. And these games had a huge following and are being milked to death. They are genuinely in for a RUDE awakening in the upcoming years. Phils viewpoint regarding exclusives is going to be their downfall. He is SO dead wrong about the importance of SP story driven games. They are bigger than ever. Nintendo is proving that, Sony is proving that. They are selling more than previous gen which results in more subscriptions, digital sales etc. If I can play Destiny, GTA 5, COD, Battlefield, Overwatch etc, RDR2 etc. all on either the Xbox or the Playstation knowing very well that it won't look much different on both and I have to pick 1 who do I go for ? Xbox with the weaker 1P games or Playstation with the superior 1P games ? Easiest decision to make. I'll play Uncharted 4, HZD and once I'm done switch to a 3P game on that console and spend money on there. That's money lost for MS. And this is where Phil is so very wrong. He doesn't get it. Subscription means nothing if you keep losing players, selling less hardware and software compared to previous gen.He is severely underestimating the importance of 1P games.

Scorpio might genuinely be my last Xbox experience if this keeps up. Halo was the only reason I stayed loyal with them but 343 has ruined that for me too as a player who enjoys SP games a lot and their 1P games have been infuriatingly weak aside of Forza Horizon 3 and Ori.

 

[Sponge]

But that's the point. This isn't their strength, so why keep pushing? Meanwhile, Forza, KI, Gears, and Halo DLC are doing well. The indies are filling in that niche for SP content.

I think it's hilarious how well KI has done yet Microsoft barely supports it with a limited budget. It's not even going to be at EVO this year.

 

[Somnia]

Because of those franchises, only Forza experienced growth. This isn't an infinite well you can pump forever.

As discussed in another thread, we know that overall sales are down on say Halo 5 compared to 4, but I have a gut feeling profit wise that Halo 5 made MS more than Halo 4 due to REQ's and stronger digital sales.

We'll never actually know that, but Halo 5 multiplayer is still going 2 years after launch and still making money where as Halo 4 was dead in the water pretty much after launch.

 

[digoutyoursoul]

So what's the point of Scorpio then? You can see the benefits of what the Pro can do with some of the first party SP content Sony has put out, whereas it looks like pretty much everything that MS wants to double down on could be done on either an S, or a much cheaper spec than what Scorpio is offering.

Maybe they think third parties will cover that? I don't know, this first party thing needs to be sorted one way or another soon, for years now it seems every so often they come under scrutiny for it and yeah I agree with a lot of the criticism they get.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Gears bombed did it not.

It should be their strength as well as having a strength in multiplayer. Why does it have to be one or another. Variety the spice of life.

Gears multiplayer is still lively. The support for it is still there and the community still shows up.

So what's the point of Scorpio then? You can see the benefits of what the Pro can do with some of the first party SP content Sony has put out, whereas it looks like pretty much everything that MS wants to double down on could be done on either an S, or a much cheaper spec than what Scorpio is offering.

Games as service can't get upgrades with Scorpio? It's gotta be exclusive to SP games?

Because of those franchises, only Forza experienced growth. This isn't an infinite well you can pump forever.

As long as the DLC sells and the community fosters it doesn't matter.

I think it's hilarious how well KI has done yet Microsoft barely supports it with a limited budget. It's not even going to be at EVO this year.

There's a lot of fighters coming out. KI is great but EVO has to choose in the end who the cut. Regardless Iron Galaxy is doing more than enough in supporting the game and the community.

 

[jelly]

As discussed in another thread, we know that overall sales are down on say Halo 5 compared to 4, but I have a gut feeling profit wise that Halo 5 made MS more than Halo 4 due to REQ's and stronger digital sales.

We'll never actually know that, but Halo 5 multiplayer is still going 2 years after launch and still making money where as Halo 4 was dead in the water pretty much after launch.

Is it better because of REQs or just a better game, multiplayer wise?

 

[Jigolo]

He said the same thing when he took over the job from Mattrick, lol

 

[farisr]

Sounds like the same thing he's been saying for years pretty much.

Frankly, to me the problem with MS's first party output is that whenever they have a failure/mediocre game, they start chasing what third party devs/publishers are doing. That, imo, is not what a console manufacturer should be doing.They should be releasing experiences that are not common things third parties go for.

Sony's continual focus on SP experiences is what makes their first party output good.
Nintendo's continual focus on SP or Local MP experiences, which again, are not that common in the AAA space, is what makes their first party output worth it.

But MS, rather than learn from the mistakes or shortcoming of their attempts to step into these genres, basically goes "well that doesn't work at all, so we're not going to pursue something like that again" when a game doesn't perform to their expectations. Sony has flops, Nintendo has flops. But they keep on trying, and do come out with great games. And each respective userbase is better off for it.

Yes, Sony's had Demon's Souls, Uncharted, Horizon. But they've also had Genji Days Of The Blade, Lair, and The Order 1886.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

To be fair, not many predicted the impact of Zelda and Horizon. By the time we know the impact, MS studio's projects already halfway in the oven.
Maybe Phil see the impact now, we'll get those single player games from MS studio in 2020.

Sure; commission new stuff now even if it's not going to be ready until 2021. I don't foresee a scenario where high-quality single player games will stop selling.

Because of those franchises, only Forza experienced growth. This isn't an infinite well you can pump forever.

And just Forza Horizon at that. I don't think 5 and 6 sell as much as the IP's heyday on 360.

 

[DriftingSpirit]

Like I said above, all this says to me is that it's unlikely Microsoft will have anything on Scorpio, bar possibly Forza, that comes close to what Ps4 Pro is already showing off in the likes of Horizon, God of War etc, even with the extra power, purely because that's generally not a priority for software taking on a "games as a service" model.

That is a good point. It creates a contradiction.

I do think they can still produce noteworthy looking games even if they aren't quite as good looking as something like Horizon on Pro though.