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Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 |OT| Anyone can save the galaxy once - SPOILERS!

And Ego has a line where he wanted to strengthen the bond between he and his children where they willingly open up to him after their mothers died.

I must have missed that because I don't remember him saying something like that. Are you sure it was generically referring to all his children and not just Peter specifically?

As far as dropping the cancer bomb instead something more elegant in your opinion, it suits the theme of entire film (spreading his "tumors" throughout the universe for instance) and metaphorically killing Ego the same way he killed Peter's mother is cathartic for both Peter and the audience.

I'm going to put aside the inherent stupidity of a god borne from nothing with no frame of reference for biological life somehow defaulting to the form of the human brain/anatomy. Or the extremely blunt hammer that is the characters putting a bomb on his giant glowing brain.

To the larger point, Ego refusing to cure her cancer doesn't change any of the cancer allusions the film has (calling it a theme would be far too generous imo). If anything I'd argue it would actually make Ego's begging for his life at the end of the film far more cathartic than it is right now.

"I killed your mom with cancer" is such a tremendously dumb and patently evil mustache twirling reveal on its face that it completely kills any nuance they were building with the audience as it just immediately shifts us into stereotyped villain mode. "I could have saved her, but I didn't care" or "I didn't even consider it", on the other hand, is far more emotionally upsetting; that immediately draws up religious parallels and very slightly treads into the realm of cosmic horror. A god that just hates us is understandable (oh he's space hitler, okay); a god who considers us as ants unworthy of any attention is frightening.

Consider The Empire Strikes Back reveal for a moment. The reveal made Vader iconic precisely because it's a complete subversion of the standard "villain killed my parents" trope (unplanned it may have been). The best villains are the ones who deliberately break tropes, not ones that adhere to them. "If he's evil we'll just kill him" is easy to understand, but it's not memorable.
 
I must have missed that because I don't remember him saying something like that. Are you sure it was generically referring to all his children and not just Peter specifically?



I'm going to put aside the inherent stupidity of a god borne from nothing with no frame of reference for biological life somehow defaulting to the form of the human brain/anatomy. Or the extremely blunt hammer that is the characters putting a bomb on his giant glowing brain.

To the larger point, Ego refusing to cure her cancer doesn't change any of the cancer allusions the film has (calling it a theme would be far too generous imo). If anything I'd argue it would actually make Ego's begging for his life at the end of the film far more cathartic than it is right now.

"I killed your mom with cancer" is such a tremendously dumb and patently evil mustache twirling reveal on its face that it completely kills any nuance they were building with the audience as it just immediately shifts us into stereotyped villain mode. "I could have saved her, but I didn't care" or "I didn't even consider it", on the other hand, is far more emotionally upsetting; that immediately draws up religious parallels and very slightly treads into the realm of cosmic horror. A god that just hates us is understandable (oh he's space hitler, okay); a god who considers us as ants unworthy of any attention is frightening.

Consider The Empire Strikes Back reveal for a moment. The reveal made Vader iconic precisely because it's a complete subversion of the standard "villain killed my parents" trope (unplanned it may have been). The best villains are the ones who deliberately break tropes, not ones that adhere to them. "If he's evil we'll just kill him" is easy to understand, but it's not memorable.
The thing is, Ego didn't say his lines with mustache twirling villainy. He says casually because he didn't expect to flip a switch in Peter to set him off. He thought being a celestial was enough for him to move on from mere mortal ties. If anything, I'd equate it to your parents finally revealing that Skippy didn't run away but was instead killed or put down. That's all Ego thought of Peter's mother.

You say it isn't memorable but reading this thread and the audible gasps I've heard in multiple viewings beg to differ. On top of that is the fact that it makes me now question how sincere he really was regarding his love for her. It worked quite well in my opinion.
 

Boss Doggie

all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Yeah, his dad said he'd be immortal as long as he could get back to the light in the planet because he has the celestial genome so I figure Peter can probably feed off/control any celestial light or whatever. The planet just happened to be a point where it was manifesting in the universe.

Anyone read the GotG comics? Do they say?

Different dad, but he's still also an asshole. iirc he was a tyrant.

He specifically says he was tapping into the "light". Its irrelevant how old he is in this particular discussion. It's why I'm asking the question i.e. why can't Peter tap into the same light?

Yes but what is it exactly achieving ? What's his purpose behind that ego? What does he want after he makes everything his own extension? There has to be a driving factor behind an ego as well, a justification that only makes sense to him but a justification nonetheless.

basically he's referring to his "core". Notice how he keeps referring to his avatar's distance from his planet? It's because his extension (the avatar) needs to be powered up by the core. It's why Quinn being on the planet is important, so that Quinn is within Ego's reach. He still has half the celestial's gene, but lacks the "core" that would make him invincible.

You don't see much villains with god complexes? It's pretty much "remake the universe under his own image" scheme.

Yes but why did he have to even mention it?
Because Ex Machina

He mentioned it because Peter asked. And he was trying to explain the circumstances hoping Peter would understand, especially after doing the "cosmos in your eyes" thing.

The thing is, Ego didn't say his lines with mustache twirling villainy. He says casually because he didn't expect to flip a switch in Peter to set him off. He thought being a celestial was enough for him to move on from mere mortal ties. If anything, I'd equate it to your parents finally revealing that Skippy didn't run away but was instead killed or put down. That's all Ego thought of Peter's mother.

You say it isn't memorable but reading this thread and the audible gasps I've heard in multiple viewings beg to differ. On top of that is the fact that it makes me now question how sincere he really was regarding his love for her. It worked quite well in my opinion.

Yep, this explains it perfectly.

Do remember that Ego already said his "killed all children" stuff prior to mentioning Peter's mom and Peter didn't react, so Ego thought he was already "getting in to his celestial side", all while doing the "cosmos in your eyes" shtick.
 
EDIT: Shit, so much for me "just wanting to clarify", haha, this post is fucking long -_- I don't want to derail anymore so please feel free to have the last word if wanted. I actually liked the film I just really hated this part (but would be fine with just a little tweak) and the discordant jokes finishing emotional scenes

The thing is, Ego didn't say his lines with mustache twirling villainy. He says casually because he didn't expect to flip a switch in Peter to set him off. He thought being a celestial was enough for him to move on from mere mortal ties. If anything, I'd equate it to your parents finally revealing that Skippy didn't run away but was instead killed or put down. That's all Ego thought of Peter's mother.

You say it isn't memorable but reading this thread and the audible gasps I've heard in multiple viewings beg to differ. On top of that is the fact that it makes me now question how sincere he really was regarding his love for her. It worked quite well in my opinion.

People will talk about Ego as much as they do Ultron which is to say they won't.

Anyway, I think we're at the 'agree to disagree' stage but I just want to clarify that Ego killing her isn't the main problem per se, it's the way he killed her. Ego explicitly states that his children never suffered when he killed them because it was always instantaneous; that's his default method of killing, ZAP! Efficient and simple, one and done, absolute. So why break from his standard approach and go out of his way to kill her with such a circuitous and painful method? [Spoiler: It's because the writers wanted a "he's a bad guy" reveal and were forced to adhere to continuity of her death from the first film that wasn't written with this film in mind]

To specifically kill her with brain cancer is a very unique and specific thing for a god who is ostensibly uncaring to do. It requires him to 1) Decide to deviate from his normal killing approach (why would he do this if he doesn't care?) 2) Learn about cancer's existence (why does he care) 3) Settle specifically on brain cancer as the delivery agent (again, how/why does an uncaring god decide he likes brain cancer best) 4) Decide that a prolonged and ambiguous death is preferable to an immediate and absolute one (which goes against his stated motivations to just be done with it), 5) Decide not to take Quill back to his home-world after he visits Earth to give her cancer (why does he care when he takes the children if he's willing to just use them as pure batteries).

And that's somehow supposed to be more representative of an uncaring/neutral being more than one who just zaps her into oblivion immediately regardless of how humans might interpret it because he just wants to be done with it once and for all? If it was about a natural death, why not give her an immediate death through a massive brain aneurysm? That's the most biologically relevant analogue to his instant death by god-lighting.

Ego giving her cancer just doesn't fit with the characterization they were going for; it's just too involved and circuitous a method for it not to imply some level of malevolence or maliciousness. Now there are a few ways you could handle this. The first, as I suggested, is to simply have him refuse to cure her cancer, because it changes almost nothing in the film while still amplifying his neutrality ('I don't care whether you die' is very different from 'I want you to die'). The second would be to change his characterization slightly by cutting the line about killing his children painlessly so there's more ambiguity regarding his opinion/approach to mortal life.

As is, the reveal serves as a weird villainous capstone despite the fact he literally just laid out a plan to absorb all life in the universe. I think that's more than enough material to convince the audience he's a bad dude (Ronan just wanted to annihilate Xandar), they don't need to go so over the top with 'killed mom with cancer'.
 

Boss Doggie

all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I think it's because he still needs her alive long enough to take care of Quill. He can't just return home to zap her, remember that he needs Yondu to deliver the children to him, and he didn't know Quill was special back then. And he figured maybe dying through cancer is less abrasive than outright killing them?
 

Aphexian

Member
I'm starting to get the feeling that I'm the only one that didn't like the movie. I feel like the jokes were really heavy handed and most of them were unnecessary and trying too hard. They completely destroyed Mantis' character. They made her meek, fragile, naive or ignorant and that's not how she is at all.
 
Finally saw it today. Enjoyed it more than the first movie, but I don't know if that's because I was in a better headspace this time, or because I actually liked it better. Also, I only cried once, which was less than I was expecting*.

(*Backstory - When GOTG1 came out in 2014, my dad had late-stage cancer. We had made plans to see it opening weekend, since up to that point we had seen every MCU movie together in the theaters, but we had to take him to the hospital instead. It took a few days before he got out of the hospital, and he was weak for a while after that, so I was afraid we wouldn't actually be able to see it in theaters because he wouldn't be strong enough. But somehow he mustered up enough strength and we went to see it [on my parents anniversary no less]. Next day, he had to get rushed back to the hospital because of complications from the surgery from opening weekend, and he ended up dying two months later, so that was the last movie we went to see together. Also, Adam Warlock was his favorite Marvel character, and the two comic books he kept visible in his home office had Warlock on one cover, and Ayesha on the other.)
 
^Sorry to hear that

Saw it today, enjoyed it but I liked the 1st better.
Also - gotta shout out GAF for spoiling that Ego is a villain in the movie. Think the thread was something "where does ego rate in mcu villains" Kind of ruined the movie for me but w/e
-_-
 
^Sorry to hear that

Saw it today, enjoyed it but I liked the 1st better.
Also - gotta shout out GAF for spoiling that Ego is a villain in the movie. Think the thread was something "where does ego rate in mcu villains" Kind of ruined the movie for me but w/e
-_-

Honestly, it makes me feel good that I know he would have loved it.
 
The thing is, Ego didn't say his lines with mustache twirling villainy. He says casually because he didn't expect to flip a switch in Peter to set him off. He thought being a celestial was enough for him to move on from mere mortal ties. If anything, I'd equate it to your parents finally revealing that Skippy didn't run away but was instead killed or put down. That's all Ego thought of Peter's mother.

You say it isn't memorable but reading this thread and the audible gasps I've heard in multiple viewings beg to differ. On top of that is the fact that it makes me now question how sincere he really was regarding his love for her. It worked quite well in my opinion.

*raises hand

I gasped when Ego dropped the bomb.
Peter's reaction was amazing too.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
Peter lost his immortality the moment his dad died. His dad even yells at him that he's going to become a normal human if he dies.

I wouldn't be so quick to assume Peter lost his Celestial half.

Peter is the first and only of Ego's children to even have a Celestial half, so to assume that Ego knows for certain what would happen to that part of him if Ego dies is a bit much.

Peter also wasn't immortal or impervious as far as we know due to his Celestial half. He definitely seems more durable because of it but not immortal. He was suffering from exposure when he saved Gamora in the first movie, but it was at what looks like a slower rate than he should have.
Yeah, we need to keep in mind the context of when Ego says that. He's on verge of being killed and is desperate to say anything that would stop it. There's no reason to take his statement at face value. When he said that, my first thought was, Ego is bulshitting. Peter is going to discover at some point during whatever the next Avenger's films are, that he's still part Celestial and holds that power.

*raises hand

I gasped when Ego dropped the bomb.
Peter's reaction was amazing too.

The speed and straight up rage that snaps Peter out of it was startling. He not only shoots Ego, he does so for a pretty long time. He wanted that bastard dead instantly.
 

platakul

Banned
I'm starting to get the feeling that I'm the only one that didn't like the movie. I feel like the jokes were really heavy handed and most of them were unnecessary and trying too hard. They completely destroyed Mantis' character. They made her meek, fragile, naive or ignorant and that's not how she is at all.
I liked it more than I thought I would, but I felt that the final fight and even the escape from the Sov cits were tedious. Rockets big fight was good and creative tho.

Did a good job of telegraphing where the gotg are gonna help out in infinity war without letting it over take the plot. Speaking of which my gut reaction was that it was weird/bad that there wasn't really much plot, but it was different from other marvel things so ultimately I like that. Certainly didn't feel like a retread of 1.
 
Anyway, I think we're at the 'agree to disagree' stage but I just want to clarify that Ego killing her isn't the main problem per se, it's the way he killed her. Ego explicitly states that his children never suffered when he killed them because it was always instantaneous; that's his default method of killing, ZAP! Efficient and simple, one and done, absolute. So why break from his standard approach and go out of his way to kill her with such a circuitous and painful method? [Spoiler: It's because the writers wanted a "he's a bad guy" reveal and were forced to adhere to continuity of her death from the first film that wasn't written with this film in mind]
Wrong. James Gunn knew from before the first movie was done that Peter's father was the reason Meredith Quill died of cancer.

Empire Online said:
Peter Quill’s celestial parentage was planned from the beginning

Chris Pratt’s Peter Quill – aka Star-Lord – finally meets his father in this film, in the form of Kurt Russell’s Ego. Gunn had this lineage planned out from day one, though he wasn’t always sure it would be Ego. “I knew before the movie who his father was,” Gunn says, reminding us of Meredith Quill’s dialogue in the first movie’s opening scene. He even knew the dark twist to her story: that Peter’s father was responsible for Meredith’s death. “I knew that before I started the first one,” Gunn says. “When she’s talking about ‘a being of pure light’, that was the man who killed her. That was always part of what her story was in my head.”

To specifically kill her with brain cancer is a very unique and specific thing for a god who is ostensibly uncaring to do. It requires him to 1) Decide to deviate from his normal killing approach (why would he do this if he doesn't care?) 2) Learn about cancer's existence (why does he care) 3) Settle specifically on brain cancer as the delivery agent (again, how/why does an uncaring god decide he likes brain cancer best) 4) Decide that a prolonged and ambiguous death is preferable to an immediate and absolute one (which goes against his stated motivations to just be done with it), 5) Decide not to take Quill back to his home-world after he visits Earth to give her cancer (why does he care when he takes the children if he's willing to just use them as pure batteries).

And that's somehow supposed to be more representative of an uncaring/neutral being more than one who just zaps her into oblivion immediately regardless of how humans might interpret it because he just wants to be done with it once and for all? If it was about a natural death, why not give her an immediate death through a massive brain aneurysm? That's the most biologically relevant analogue to his instant death by god-lighting.

Ego giving her cancer just doesn't fit with the characterization they were going for; it's just too involved and circuitous a method for it not to imply some level of malevolence or maliciousness. Now there are a few ways you could handle this. The first, as I suggested, is to simply have him refuse to cure her cancer, because it changes almost nothing in the film while still amplifying his neutrality ('I don't care whether you die' is very different from 'I want you to die'). The second would be to change his characterization slightly by cutting the line about killing his children painlessly so there's more ambiguity regarding his opinion/approach to mortal life.

As is, the reveal serves as a weird villainous capstone despite the fact he literally just laid out a plan to absorb all life in the universe. I think that's more than enough material to convince the audience he's a bad dude (Ronan just wanted to annihilate Xandar), they don't need to go so over the top with 'killed mom with cancer'.
As it was already stated, Ego gave her cancer so that he didn't go back to Earth and live with Meredith Quill, which would obviously stop his plans from going forward. The how and when, while intriguing, aren't really necessary for the plot to work.

While the story could've worked if Ego just didn't cure Meredith's cancer, I don't see how you get Peter to react the same way he did. He didn't even wait to process the information that Ego put the cancer in his mom's head. He just shot him right away. Which was so awesome and so unlike what you'd normally see in this kind of film. I wouldn't trade that reaction for anything. If he just didn't cure it, Peter would've been very hurt, and probably questioned Ego why, which could be cool, I guess, but would be a different scene. Yes, this makes Ego more of a traditional villain, but it works very well as is, and was planned from the beginning.

Also keep in mind that nothing that Ego said before he mentioned putting the cancer in Meredith's head registered with Peter. Killing all of his step-siblings? No reaction. Terraforming who knows how many planets, potentially killing trillions of life forms? No reaction. It took Ego killing one person for his plans for Peter to finally wake up and realize that he needed to take Ego down. That's the reason Ego wasn't expecting that reaction: he thought Peter was all in! But his ego was in the way, and he didn't foresee that Peter was raised by other life forms and would feel ties to them that Ego could never truly feel. That would've been reduced if he only chose not to cure her cancer, but it was heightened by him doing it himself.

I'm not sure why you're so hung up on how Ego said he killed his other kids. While they were his offspring, they were primarily a means to an end. And when they all didn't pan out, he disposed of them. Meredith Quill was the "love of his life", in a way that his other kid's mothers weren't. He seemed to feel actual love for her, at least as much as any 'little 'g' god could. It seems obvious to me that his real love for her would prevent him from just zapping her and being done with it. But either way, he didn't kill Meredith in malice. And he certainly wasn't twirling his curly mustache talking to Peter about it. He did it in such a nonchalant, matter-of-fact way, which in its way shows his indifference.

So while I can understand why you would've liked your tweaks to the story more, I don't see why you can't see the logic in what was given to you. Everything makes sense, is logical and plausible. And judging by the reactions in not only this thread but in theaters all over, people are audibly gasping at the reveal, so it seems rather effective.
 
TLDR: I'm not trying to deny that the reveal may have been shocking or dramatic, I'm just trying to argue that it doesn't align with Ego's characterization in the film. I understand Ego's motive for killing her, but not with cancer.

I think it's because he still needs her alive long enough to take care of Quill. He can't just return home to zap her, remember that he needs Yondu to deliver the children to him, and he didn't know Quill was special back then. And he figured maybe dying through cancer is less abrasive than outright killing them?

I mean, if we want to get down to brass tax, the real reason the logistics of Ego's plan don't make sense is because they had to sanitize it in an attempt to evade the obvious implications of rape and sexual slavery. Realisically an uncaring god who only needed to spawn a single compatible progeny would have just abducted thousands of women and forcibly impregnated them over and over again until one of them gave birth to a suitable child. But that would be utterly abhorrent and abominable so they tried to create the most "moral" alternative by having him woo every single woman and have real feelings for them.

And even with that contrivance, which was necessary to be sure to avoid immediate controversy, it still doesn't make a lot of sense. Apparently there's a celestial gene, so what stops Ego from detecting whether his children have it in the womb? Why does he even leave instead of just waiting 9 months and taking the baby back to his planet with him? There's no reason for him to leave early or have third parties do all this crap.

SonofdonCD said:

I believe they had the celestial parentage planned for sure, I mean they state it outright at the end of the first movie basically. But I'm not sure I can believe that peter's father (who he admits at that point was undetermined) was going to be the cause of her cancer. Unless he's admitting that his 'plan' was literally just a desire to have a scene where Peter's dad would reveal he killed her with cancer (despite not having a plot or character planned where that reveal would make sense), in which case that's the very definition of contrived ("deliberately created rather than arising naturally or spontaneously").

Honestly that would make it worse because it would be an admission that the only motive or purpose behind the whole thing was to exploit murder/death-by-cancer to create a dramatic scene.

As it was already stated, Ego gave her cancer so that he didn't go back to Earth and live with Meredith Quill, which would obviously stop his plans from going forward. The how and when, while intriguing, aren't really necessary for the plot to work.

No that doesn't answer the question of why he killed her with cancer. That answers the question of why he killed her, but not why he did it with cancer. Again, the fact he kills her is one thing, I understand that, that he does it with cancer is another.

I'm not sure why you're so hung up on how Ego said he killed his other kids. While they were his offspring, they were primarily a means to an end. And when they all didn't pan out, he disposed of them. Meredith Quill was the "love of his life"

That's my whole goddamn point. He kills his offspring, who he doesn't care about whatsoever, with relative kindness through instantaneous death. But when it comes time to kill the person who he ostensibly 'loves' he condemns them to a horrific and elongated death.

But either way, he didn't kill Meredith in malice. And he certainly wasn't twirling his curly mustache talking to Peter about it. He did it in such a nonchalant, matter-of-fact way, which in its way shows his indifference.

Fuck that, anyone who has lost someone to cancer knows there's nothing impersonal or kind or preferable about the disease. Killing someone with cancer as opposed to almost any other method is inherently malicious; an aneurysm would be a kind, passive death compared to cancer. If you had to choose how you die nobody is going to go "I'll take cancer please". The very action itself was mustache twirling villain level antics; the fact that Russell delivered his lines well doesn't make them well written.

So while I can understand why you would've liked your tweaks to the story more, I don't see why you can't see the logic in what was given to you. Everything makes sense, is logical and plausible. And judging by the reactions in not only this thread but in theaters all over, people are audibly gasping at the reveal, so it seems rather effective.

Simply saying that other people reacted like you did is not an argument. My direct friend group had similar reactions to my own, but I'm not dropping them as evidence that my position is more or less true (I know people who reacted as you and others did too). Maybe we reacted abnormally. Maybe we didn't. What's important is going through an analysis about the content of the film and sharing opinions based on it. I appreciate hearing opposing positions/interpretations, I don't appreciate hearing arguments of the form "well my theater laughed at the joke so it must in good taste".

Besides, I'm not trying to deny that the reveal may have been shocking, I'm trying to argue that it doesn't align with Ego's characterization in the film. I could buy Ego killing her, but not with cancer.
 
I believe they had the celestial parentage planned for sure, I mean they state it outright at the end of the first movie basically. But I'm not sure I can believe that peter's father (who he admits at that point was undetermined) was going to be the cause of her cancer. Unless he's admitting his 'plan' was literally just a desire to have a scene where Peter's dad would reveal he killed her (despite not having a plot planned in which that would make sense), in which case that's kind of the definition of contrived ("deliberately created rather than arising naturally or spontaneously").
Well, I mean, he said it right there in the quote, and I also listened to the podcast this interview was taken from, and it seemed pretty clear that this was his intention all along. I'd prefer to believe the actual writer of both films than a random person on the internet.
Honestly that would make it worse because it would be an admission that the only motive or purpose behind the whole thing was to exploit murder/death-by-cancer to create a dramatic scene.
What?! Every storyteller manipulates their audience in order to feel certain emotions at their whim. That's what they do! That's the whole point! Man, I don't get you at all.
No that doesn't answer the question of why he killed her with cancer. That answers the question of why he killed her, but not why he did it with cancer. Again, the fact he kills her is one thing, I understand that, that he does it with cancer is another.
But again, why is this so important? Why is this necessary for the plot to make sense? He admitted to doing it, we know why, we can suss out how. It's not illogical. It's not the only possibility for making the story work, but it certainly works in and of itself. Could it have been done better? Perhaps, but the way it was done had real impact and gave us the great reaction that Peter had to the news.

Fuck that, anyone who has lost someone to cancer knows there's nothing impersonal or kind about the disease. Killing someone with cancer as opposed to almost any other method is inherently malicious.The very action itself was mustache twirling villain level antics. That Russell delivered his lines well doesn't make them any better written.
See, what you wrote is something a mere mortal would write. Any one of us would react that way. Ego was not written to think this way. Regardless of the method, and even though he loved Meredith Quill as much as he could, she was a roadblock to his plans, so he did something to prevent her from continuing to do so. That was the only reason. He had no evil intent on her part, which would imply malice. It was a very sterile, almost machine-like efficiency to his thought process and reasoning for doing what he did. Hence, he had no malice in killing her. It's the same thing as when, right before a gangster might shoot someone who was interfering with their plans, they say "It's nothing personal, just business."

Simply saying that other people reacted like you did is not an argument. My friend group had similar reactions to my own, but I'm not dropping them as evidence that my opinion is more or less true.
But that's not all that I said. I said that it was effective, sure. It was, for what seems like the vast majority of those who saw it. But nothing they came up with is without reason or logic. No matter how many times I run it through my head, I can't find fault with the choices they made for the plot. The changes you suggested aren't bad, but they do change some of the character beats and their reactions. The story wouldn't quite hit as hard as I'm sure Marvel and James Gunn had wanted. Maybe it'd be more cerebral, if I'm being generous, but that'd be another movie. And I'm pretty satisfied with the one I got.

So while I wouldn't say this movie was flawless by any means, I certainly didn't have any problems with Ego in the same way you did. It all made sense to me. I also think you should read that interview, or better yet, look up the Empire Online spoilercast of GOTG Vol.2 on SoundCloud. It's like 30 mins of James Gunn talking spoilers about the movie, and gives some insight into what his intentions were. It might not make you like the plot more, but you'll have more context.
 

Big Nikus

Member

Well I agree with pretty much everything you've said on this page. I liked the movie but this moment was terrible, it completely took me out of the scene. Terribly written, contrived and stupid. Don't care if James Gunn planned it or not. The creators of How I Met Your Mother planned the ending from the beginning, it doesn't mean it wasn't shit.

Apart from that I liked it about as much as the first one, except for some jokes that went on for too long.
 
Well I agree with pretty much everything you've said on this page. I liked the movie but this moment was terrible, it completely took me out of the scene. Terribly written, contrived and stupid. Don't care if James Gunn planned it or not. The creators of How I Met Your Mother planned the ending from the beginning, it doesn't mean it wasn't shit.

Apart from that I liked it about as much as the first one, except for some jokes that went on for too long.

And the bold is where you lost me.

As for why he killed her with Cancer, he wanted her to die but since he actually loved her, he didn't have the balls to do it directly in a manner where she would know it was him.

He doesn't give a shit about any of his kids and how could he? He doesn't know them at all and doesn't ever give himself the chance to know them. He has them delivered, tests them for Celestial power, then kills them immediately when they disappoint.
 

shintoki

sparkle this bitch
The first film ends with the Nova corps telling he is half him and the other half is something ancient. This shit ain't coming from no where.
 
Well I agree with pretty much everything you've said on this page. I liked the movie but this moment was terrible, it completely took me out of the scene. Terribly written, contrived and stupid. Don't care if James Gunn planned it or not. The creators of How I Met Your Mother planned the ending from the beginning, it doesn't mean it wasn't shit.

Apart from that I liked it about as much as the first one, except for some jokes that went on for too long.

Don't bring this movie down to the level of the HIMYM ending please

That's like the narrative criticism level of the "C" word
 
I think the cancer stuff is fine. Ego doesn't really seem to comprehend just how terrible it is to inflict cancer on someone versus something more quick. Heck, one could even argue that Ego is misguided. Ego is a man willing to kill all life in the universe aside from two. He values immortality. Perhaps he thought that the extra time of cancer versus giving Meredith a heart attack and ending her life quickly was worth it? The movie certainly doesn't portray him as being able to understand mortal niceties or priorities. He doesn't care enough to be considerate about killing her, and when Peter shoots him up, Ego doesn't even stop to think about why he shot him up, and just acts offended that Peter doesn't appreciate the form he took to appeal to Peter's sensibilities.

Like was noted, you can't apply human morality to Ego, he doesn't possess that. He cares for Meredith, but only insomuch as it benefits him emotionally, and to him, the suffering she would go through would be so very minor to him.
 

Donos

Member
I have to agree with the "fragile mantis". After GotG 1 i went through the whole Annihilation comics and unlike in GotG 1,Mantis was rather tough and cool iirc.

Sidenote: Although i didn't really like Robin, i was ok with the HIMYM ending :)
 
Well, I mean, he said it right there in the quote, and I also listened to the podcast this interview was taken from, and it seemed pretty clear that this was his intention all along. I'd prefer to believe the actual writer of both films than a random person on the internet.

I'm not denying he claimed that, I'm just expressing my doubt as to whether it's actually true because it's so incredibly stupid and I don't take the claims of writers/directors as pure gospel. I would have been done arguing about the whole thing had it not been for this one specific point that pissed me off so deeply I couldn't let it go without expansive retribution. I swear on Ego's quantum heart that I won't bother the thread anymore after this though.

See, what you wrote is something a mere mortal would write. Any one of us would react that way. Ego was not written to think this way.

Ego was not written with any degree of self-consistency and he absolutely does think that way at various points throughout the movie because they never commit to who or what he is. He experiences no emotions except for the times where he does. He doesn't care about moral values except for the times where he defends his actions by appealing to them. His character and mental landscape are whatever the writers need it to be in the moment.

Need to avoid implications of rape with Ego's plan? Okay, we'll just make Ego fall in genuine love with all the women he impregnated. Oh shoot, now we need him to be more amoral and unemotional? Okay just say he allowed himself to experience love because he was curious what the human experience was like. Oh shit, now he doesn't have a reason to kill Meredith instead of just leaving her? Okay just say he fell in "true" love with her to explain why he couldn't resist. Wait, so does that mean he wasn't really in love with all the other women? Shit, okay no, Ego just fell in love with her on an entirely more fundamental level than all the other women, it was a unique relationship.

Wait, so now Ego believes in soulmates or at least has some capacity to experience and evaluate complex gradations and categorizations of emotional experiences? Uh, sure. So why is Ego so confused about Peter's violent reaction to learning that Ego killed his mother, how could you experience true love and still not have at least an intellectual understanding of its conceptual implications? Uhhhh, well just because Ego can experience emotion doesn't mean he understands or cares about it, as a celestial he operates above all that; he would feel the same way about killing a loved one as he does killing someone he doesn't love.

Okay, putting aside the fact that makes no fucking sense and seems to blatantly contradict the fact we're explicitly told by Ego that he does experience love (which everyone would agree implicitly involves some relative prioritization of some things over other things), why does Ego make a point to defend the killing of his children by appealing to the fact he killed them painlessly? Uhh, he didn't care about killing them painlessly or painfully, he just knew that other people would care how he did it. But why would Ego care what other people think of him, doesn't that again imply Ego has at least a conceptual understanding of morality and the principle of unnecessary suffering with regards to how it would impact his social standing with mortal beings who do share those values and who he was reliant upon to bring his plans to fruition? Uh oh.

So why does it make any fucking sense for Ego to kill his self-proclaimed one true love in the entire galaxy in a manner so discordant with any modicum of a loving emotion or purely rational analysis? Why does he do this when he has already explicitly recognized and acted in accordance with the fact that mortal beings do not approve of inflicting unnecessary suffering by opting to kill his children painlessly and refraining from mass rape/abduction? Why the fuck would Ego be more merciful to children he didn't love than the one being in the entire galaxy he did?

Jeez, stop trying to overanalyze everything. Ego is just an emotionless amoral being who also happens to experience and desire true love while simultaneously knowing that mortals wouldn't like him if he acted completely amorally so he restricts his activities according to their values, what's so hard to understand, seems pretty straightforward to me. I mean, how else are we supposed to have a super badass scene where Quill shoots him a million times in the face after he reveals he killed his mom with cancer, fuck cancer amiright?

I don't know, maybe try writing a script where you attempt to actually earn your emotional climax as opposed to relying on the completely lazy and exploitative crutch that is having your villain murder the main character's mom with cancer. Maybe in next movie we'll learn the new villain killed Quill's unborn half-sister before Ego gave her cancer. The fridges write themselves.
 
TLDR: I'm not trying to deny that the reveal may have been shocking or dramatic, I'm just trying to argue that it doesn't align with Ego's characterization in the film. I understand Ego's motive for killing her, but not with cancer.



I mean, if we want to get down to brass tax, the real reason the logistics of Ego's plan don't make sense is because they had to sanitize it in an attempt to evade the obvious implications of rape and sexual slavery. Realisically an uncaring god who only needed to spawn a single compatible progeny would have just abducted thousands of women and forcibly impregnated them over and over again until one of them gave birth to a suitable child. But that would be utterly abhorrent and abominable so they tried to create the most "moral" alternative by having him woo every single woman and have real feelings for them.

And even with that contrivance, which was necessary to be sure to avoid immediate controversy, it still doesn't make a lot of sense. Apparently there's a celestial gene, so what stops Ego from detecting whether his children have it in the womb? Why does he even leave instead of just waiting 9 months and taking the baby back to his planet with him? There's no reason for him to leave early or have third parties do all this crap.



I believe they had the celestial parentage planned for sure, I mean they state it outright at the end of the first movie basically. But I'm not sure I can believe that peter's father (who he admits at that point was undetermined) was going to be the cause of her cancer. Unless he's admitting that his 'plan' was literally just a desire to have a scene where Peter's dad would reveal he killed her with cancer (despite not having a plot or character planned where that reveal would make sense), in which case that's the very definition of contrived ("deliberately created rather than arising naturally or spontaneously").

Honestly that would make it worse because it would be an admission that the only motive or purpose behind the whole thing was to exploit murder/death-by-cancer to create a dramatic scene.



No that doesn't answer the question of why he killed her with cancer. That answers the question of why he killed her, but not why he did it with cancer. Again, the fact he kills her is one thing, I understand that, that he does it with cancer is another.



That's my whole goddamn point. He kills his offspring, who he doesn't care about whatsoever, with relative kindness through instantaneous death. But when it comes time to kill the person who he ostensibly 'loves' he condemns them to a horrific and elongated death.



Fuck that, anyone who has lost someone to cancer knows there's nothing impersonal or kind or preferable about the disease. Killing someone with cancer as opposed to almost any other method is inherently malicious; an aneurysm would be a kind, passive death compared to cancer. If you had to choose how you die nobody is going to go "I'll take cancer please". The very action itself was mustache twirling villain level antics; the fact that Russell delivered his lines well doesn't make them well written.



Simply saying that other people reacted like you did is not an argument. My direct friend group had similar reactions to my own, but I'm not dropping them as evidence that my position is more or less true (I know people who reacted as you and others did too). Maybe we reacted abnormally. Maybe we didn't. What's important is going through an analysis about the content of the film and sharing opinions based on it. I appreciate hearing opposing positions/interpretations, I don't appreciate hearing arguments of the form "well my theater laughed at the joke so it must in good taste".

Besides, I'm not trying to deny that the reveal may have been shocking, I'm trying to argue that it doesn't align with Ego's characterization in the film. I could buy Ego killing her, but not with cancer.

You're missing the part where he killed them "naturally" so the kids are more open to accepting their father.

Mom just dropping dead or vaporizing or in an accident all of sudden wouldn't have that affect in Ego's mind. But the kid dealing with that is more prone. Peter, however, was too strong because he had found a family.

You may have missed these things, but this isn't some overused trope in tentpole blockbusters. The fact that some do miss this stuff proves just how subtle it plays out despite the claim that it too conveniently "spells it out" for the audience.

To go with your idea, These kids would have been ripped from their still living mothers into an alien environment, dropped off on a planet and introduced to dad and told "hey, you might be a god too". Ego's characterization is shown to be quite charming, and while he could have charmed these young, frightened kids, it may have been easier doing so after hearing mom ramble about her being of light lover on her death bed.

It's why Yondu arrives right on cue.
 

Boss Doggie

all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I mean, if we want to get down to brass tax, the real reason the logistics of Ego's plan don't make sense is because they had to sanitize it in an attempt to evade the obvious implications of rape and sexual slavery. Realisically an uncaring god who only needed to spawn a single compatible progeny would have just abducted thousands of women and forcibly impregnated them over and over again until one of them gave birth to a suitable child. But that would be utterly abhorrent and abominable so they tried to create the most "moral" alternative by having him woo every single woman and have real feelings for them.

And even with that contrivance, which was necessary to be sure to avoid immediate controversy, it still doesn't make a lot of sense. Apparently there's a celestial gene, so what stops Ego from detecting whether his children have it in the womb? Why does he even leave instead of just waiting 9 months and taking the baby back to his planet with him? There's no reason for him to leave early or have third parties do all this crap.

Nah they weren't aiming that. Do note that Ego himself was curious of the world around him. While he did say the first sign of life he saw was disappointing, it didn't mean that he stopped searching around. There's also the case of planting the seed without leaving suspicion. Simply having women being kidnapped wouldn't really satisfy his curiosity over the world around him to start his master plan.

He did state he needs to leave to replenish his energy. The avatar couldn't sustain being outside of his planet it seems. He did mention he visited Earth three times after all.
 

DeathyBoy

Banned
I love armchair quarterbacking online.

I really do. Just the rudeness of "it didn't work for me and it was stupid and the writer was stupid" with the undercurrent that the poster could do a better job,
 
I love armchair quarterbacking online.

I really do. Just the rudeness of "it didn't work for me and it was stupid and the writer was stupid" with the undercurrent that the poster could do a better job,
They're so focused on calling it out while missing the whole point.

I come away from the scene wondering:

A) How many of these women did he "fall in love with"?

And

B) Did he really take on Kurt Russel form from the beginning or did he morph depending on which planet he visited?

The scene paints a more slimey image than just the bomb drop itself and I love that.

Slightly off-topic: What are the chances that one alien woman running from the blob with a child was one of Ego's lovers (with his child)?
 

wvnative

Member
Saw it last night. I cannot convey through words how much I loved it. It reminded of seeing Spider-Man 2 for the first time. First movie was great but this felt like a whole nother level.

Fantastic action, great character development for most of the cast, hilarious jokes, and genuine emotional beats.

10/10, what a legendary year for movies.
 

PK Gaming

Member
I liked this one a lot more than the 1st movie

Characters were more likeable and generally better, the antagonist was fantastic (I legit forgot the main antagonist for the first movie), and I there were some legitimately touching moments
 
I have seen the film three times and I think I've incorrectly stated that Ego has a line where he mentions strengthening the bond between he and his children

Maybe I started projecting fan theories (that make perfect sense) into the film. I apologize for commenting with false info.

But, I stand by my assertion that Ego feeds this line (about loving their mother) to most when necessary (or even it is true for Meredith, he ended her the same way he did the others, just had a harder time doing so). Yondu didn't arrive right on cue for nothing. Ego basically put a timebomb in her head, one that he knew the timing of (because celestial cancer), and must have done the same for many others. Unless we're going to suggest Yondu just picked random coordinates from Ego and straight up kidnapped the kids but managed to come at such a convenient time for Peter. I guess I'd go with that if it strengthened my internet argument that Ego should have said he knew she had cancer and didn't want to save her instead. *twirls mustache
 

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
hvCOpLh.jpg
 
It's really weird reading the first few pages of this and seeing the reaction be kinda muted compared to now
Slow burn maybe? It took me two viewings to realise it's probably holistically the best MCU film, for me personally.

Laughs, well developed characters, emotional beats, decent villain. Most Marvel films have 1-2 out of the four tops.
 

Staf

Member
Amazing. Not sure whether i like this or the original more. Both are up there with Superman 2, Spider-man 2 and Avengers as the best CBM of all time for me.
 

Jonogunn

Member
Not sure if this has been mentioned but James Gunn said he messed up with the Stan Lee cameo where he referenced playing a FedEx guy. However guardians Vol 2 takes place before civil war so it doesn't make sense.
 
Most people compiling MCU fan-timelines, and Gunn himself, simply handwave the mistake by assuming he has taken the FedEx deliveryman guise more than once.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Slow burn maybe? It took me two viewings to realise it's probably holistically the best MCU film, for me personally.

Laughs, well developed characters, emotional beats, decent villain. Most Marvel films have 1-2 out of the four tops.

I walked out of this feeling basically that way. This movie is fucking solid
 
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