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[Principate]

Why is it suddenly unusual that a superhero movie ends with a showdown between the hero and the villain?

I think it's more how forced it becomes considering how diverse superhero films have become. I mean ant man was a heist movie and yet they still shoehorned in the villain getting to suit for a big fight. It just comes predictable in the bad way.

A true climatic battle I find great but in a lot of these origin stories the villain gets almost no development because they've spent the time developing the hero so that battle is just a formality.

If they properly developed both with a final clash of ideals the result in a battle I find that very enjoyable otherwise it just seems like a formulaic check box that doesn't really add to the movie.

 

[Jeffolation]

I'd love to try whatever Danny Huston was inhaling, that shit looked like a blast.

 

[Timeaisis]

Why is it suddenly unusual that a superhero movie ends with a showdown between the hero and the villain?

We had no idea who the villain was before the final battle? It goes against the themes of the entire rest of the film? The writing gets awful while they start yelling at eachother? I could go on and on. It was not unusual, it was just bad.

 

[TyrantII]

More disappointing than bad IMO. It still works, it's just too safe, and too cookie cutter; especially in light of the first two acts.

 

[Vyer]

I thought the first two-thirds were legit great. Gal and Chris are great. And then the last 30 minutes are just god awful with Ares and the DCverse's patented big stupid fight scene. Nobody needed that hot DC garbage. Good lord. What a letdownn.

I seem to remember seeing that in more than just DC movies

 

[kmag]

Yeah, they mentioned the timer, They even have a shot of the timer.

The timer doesn't make any sense because they had a shot of the route of the plane supposedly going to London, so Trevor would have an age to ditch it in the sea.

Honestly the 3rd act doesn't really make much sense or stand up too much.

 

[TyrantII]

There was a bomb on the plane set to a timer which was going to go off no matter what. Trevor had to fly the plane high enough so the gas wouldn't affect anyone on the ground within the 50 mile radius (or whatever they said it was).

Yup, they actually ticked off all the logic boxes on this one, which made me chuckle because they NEVER do that.

Can't shoot it down, because it might not explode and kill everything within 50 miles.

Can't just stop the plane, it's on a timer that their ordinance guy can't defuse.

Can't bail out; Pine kicked the one parachute, on the back of the pilot, out the door in his fight before taking control.

Little iffy on if he was truly far away enough, but if you can see Vulcan from that moon anything is possible in cinema. Plus hydrogen rises.

The timer doesn't make any sense because they had a shot of the route of the plane supposedly going to London, so Trevor would have an age to ditch it in the sea.

That risks it being shot down by either side on the way to the sea / London. His objective was to make sure the gas was never released and the Armistice never in jeopardy.

 

[mrjohill]

yooo that was a pretty hype movie. some really cool action scenes. Also I never really paid attention to the casting so the villain reveal was a complete surprise

 

[Nether!]

Saw it last week.
I'm glad that it exists and so many people are finding inspiration from it.
Was well made and (besides the night filter(?) used as they were leaving the island, which I had trouble watching) the effects were all nice, especially the lasso in fight sequences.
I'm interested to see what the sequel will be like now that the origin story is done, but I'm worried that it will have just as much exposition as we'll have to catch us with present day Diana and meet a new supporting cast.

 

[autumnleaf]

Could someone explain to me why Chris Pine had to commit suicide to blow up the plane? Surely there would be a different way to disable/destroy a plane filled with bombs.

The same reason Cap had to do the same thing in The First Avenger.

Spoiler

Lazy writing to get a heroic death

 

[SomTervo]

The last fight was Dragonball Z dumb and badly paced, but I'm not complaining too much. Was still pretty fun and still in the context of this trope-flipping movie.

A better solution would have been to have WW have her revelation, have a swipe at Ares, but then see him retreat to recoup. Wouldn't have been frustrating because they already had a bunch of "wins", WWII happens 20 years later (justifying Ares' survival), and it means we know her direction moving forward (rather than magic lady who lives in the Louvre).

 

[Astral Dog]

We had no idea who the villain was before the final battle? It goes against the themes of the entire rest of the film? The writing gets awful while they start yelling at eachother? I could go on and on. It was not unusual, it was just bad.

The whole point of Diana was to beat Ares . Steven was wrong you need to beat one bad god down to have peace on a comicbook universe,humans still suck.

 

[Famassu]

Just watched it last night. It was the best super hero movie I have ever seen. Everyone cheered throughout the whole thing. This surpassed all the marvel movies and even Logan which I thought wouldn't be topped. Wow

This is nowhere near Logan in quality.

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

I assumed he was going to transform into some CG creature that had possessed David Thewlis' body or something.

The weirder part for me was Wonder Woman reaching for her sword and realizing it was still stuck in the roof. Cut to Chris Pine doing stuff. Cut back to Wonder Woman dropping back into frame with her sword and continuing the conversation like nothing had happened. Was David Thewlis just awkwardly standing there waiting for her to come back? If the missing sword wasn't going to factor into things, why not just have her take it with her after stabbing nazi guy? Why include that bit at all? Did I miss something?

I really really really liked the movie but man I have not been able to get that weird-ass moment out of my head for a week, haha.

There must have been some very late changes to the structure of that scene.

 

[Angel_DvA]

This is nowhere near Logan in quality.

Yup, not even close.

 

[GuitarAtomik]

I really really really liked the movie but man I have not been able to get that weird-ass moment out of my head for a week, haha.

There must have been some very late changes to the structure of that scene.

Yeah, I'm really curious what the deal with that was lol.

 

[Ross61]

I definitely loved this more than Logan.

 

[autumnleaf]

I liked both but I would much rather watch this again than Logan. That might not mean it's better but definitely more rewatchable.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

Logan was great, but it's weak 3rd act was weaker than Wonder Woman's. And the

Spoiler

clone Logan

was infinitely worse than mustache Lupin.

 

[crisdecuba]

Logan was great, but it's weak 3rd act was weaker than Wonder Woman's. And the

Spoiler

clone Logan

was infinitely worse than mustache Lupin.

I actually think clone Logan was the best option to go with. It's a bad guy you can introduce and have him be understood immediately in terms of his powers and capabilities. We're already very familiar and that allows us to keep the focus on Logan, Charles, and the girl as much as possible. I don't know why people are so against x24. Anything else really would have been distracting.

 

[DeathyBoy]

I actually think clone Logan was the best option to go with. It's a bad guy you can introduce and have him be understood immediately in terms of his powers and capabilities. We're already very familiar and that allows us to keep the focus on Logan, Charles, and the girl as much as possible. I don't know why people are so against x24. Anything else really would have been distracting.

That and the entire point of the film is about Logan saving Laura from a similar fate. Him saving her from himself is thematic poetry.

 

[DirtyLarry]

Saw the movie earlier today. Definitely dug it overall. I would say easily the best DC Movie yet.

With that said, I just cannot put my finger on it, but there is something with these DC movies that is ever so slightly off with the visuals, in particular the action scenes.

They are a tad too stylized. A bit too "heavy metal" for lack of a better term. Which also leads to the music they choose to use too during action scenes. That heavy metal meets dance music meets I am not sure what mash up, which no doubt adds to the overall vibe of everything.

It is like they abuse Photoshop Effects with how they approach the CGI if that makes any sense. Again, just too stylized. Too manufactured.

Also the way they handle the swirling camera fight scenes, it almost feels as if there are frame drops or screen tears to tie it to video games since most here can relate to that description. They just do not have a super smooth feel to them.

Truth is, I just appreciate the way Marvel handles action better. And I am going to compare the two franchises. They are direct competition. My personal taste just skews Marvel.

Again though, I actually liked the movie. Really liked it even. I just feel if they addressed my issues above, I could love their movies.

 

[Inferno313]

That and the entire point of the film is about Logan saving Laura from a similar fate. Him saving her from himself is thematic poetry.

thematic poetry, themeatic schmoetry. I only care about seeing my comic book faves and yellow spandex.

/s

 

[StarCreator]

Can we not spoil Logan in a Wonder Woman thread? Thanks.

 

[JSevere]

really enjoyed this. what I loved about it is just how Diana wants to protect people and save lives and that's her whole drive throughout the entire thing. she's a true superhero and Gadot plays her perfectly. No Man's Land scene was incredible, one of the best setpieces that's ever been in a hero flick imo. I wish every DC movie could be like this.

 

[Kin5290]

Logan was great, but it's weak 3rd act was weaker than Wonder Woman's. And the

Spoiler

clone Logan

was infinitely worse than mustache Lupin.

Yeah, what the hell is this.

It is important that Logan's ultimate enemy

Spoiler

be his clone

because it's a physical representation of his internal struggle, against both his nature as a killer and his own body,

Spoiler

which is betraying him

.

Ares is just the fucking worst. The entire third act is thematically muddied, and the movie doesn't succeed in giving Diana's fight with Ares any emotional stakes or relevance to her personal story.

 

[TheTylerDurden]

The timer doesn't make any sense because they had a shot of the route of the plane supposedly going to London, so Trevor would have an age to ditch it in the sea.

Honestly the 3rd act doesn't really make much sense or stand up too much.

There are all kinds of little things that don't make sense in most movies on this type. One that occurred to me today is that when WW comes upon the airfield for the final act, it was just getting dark - she rode through dusk, and then suddenly it was dark. Ok, not a big deal.

But then when the whole fight with Ares was over, the sun was coming up.

Shortest "night" ever?

Not a big deal, these things I can ignore. But they are a bit amusing.

I like this movie a lot.

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

Yeah, what the hell is this.

It is important that Logan's ultimate enemy

Spoiler

be his clone

because it's a physical representation of his internal struggle, against both his nature as a killer and his own body,

Spoiler

which is betraying him

.

Ares is just the fucking worst. The entire third act is thematically muddied, and the movie doesn't succeed in giving Diana's fight with Ares any emotional stakes or relevance to her personal story.

Spoiler

Clone Sabretooth

would have been cooler and still worked

 

[Inferno313]

Spoiler

Clone Sabretooth

would have been cooler and still worked

"Still worked" in what capacity? If the goal was still what that poster was describing, then it would absolutely not have "still worked"

 

[MisterHero]

Yeah, what the hell is this.

It is important that Logan's ultimate enemy

Spoiler

be his clone

because it's a physical representation of his internal struggle, against both his nature as a killer and his own body,

Spoiler

which is betraying him

.

Ares is just the fucking worst. The entire third act is thematically muddied, and the movie doesn't succeed in giving Diana's fight with Ares any emotional stakes or relevance to her personal story.

Ares forced Diana to choose between damning humanity or sparing them. She definitely learns her life mission from facing him. I'd say both WW and Ares lacked emotion but the 3rd act did have a point.

 

[NealMcCauley]

It was okay enough I guess.

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

"Still worked" in what capacity? If the goal was still what that poster was describing, then it would absolutely not have "still worked"

Spoiler

Sabretooth

has always represented Wolverine's internal struggle. He represents what Wolverine would be if he gave in to his animal instincts. They're also

Spoiler

brothers.

It would also have the layer on top of that of continuing the endless struggle that those two characters have.

 

[Kenai]

I just saw this movie a few hours ago. Fav superhero movie, though I haven't see Logan yet.

 

[jackdoe]

Ares forced Diana to choose between damning humanity or sparing them. She definitely learns her life mission from facing him. I'd say both WW and Ares lacked emotion but the 3rd act did have a point.

I absolutely agree. Ares played the role of disillusioned God. Wonder Woman became a disillusioned God after learning that mankind was self destructive on its own. Her rejecting his viewpoint is the whole purpose behind the third act.

 

[TyrantII]

I absolutely agree. Ares played the role of disillusioned God. Wonder Woman became a disillusioned God after learning that mankind was self destructive on its own. Her rejecting his viewpoint is the whole purpose behind the third act.

The big issue with Ares is he is nothing but a name right untill the end. They did a good job of weaving his real super villian plot in the first two acts when he reveals what his objective was, but that's still not him.

These movies typical work better when from the start you have the villian and the hero on a direct path from the start, and at least give the villain some characterization/interaction with the hero in the first two acts.

It still works here, but I understand why people are finding it weak. They did a untraditional villian path but couldn't do an untraditional ending, like him walking away.

 

[Jaraghan]

Came back from my 2nd movie. No Mans Land still gave me chills, Pine was fantastic (along with the chemistry between him and Gal), Ares was awful (most of the 3rd act was).

Still favorite DC movie although the bar wasn't that high.

 

[Poodlestrike]

So, like... the question of "what was Wondy doing during WW2" has come up a few times in this thread, and obviously we can't answer it, but... how is WW2 supposed to play out? Without Von Hindenburg (or any other members of High Command) left standing, who runs the Weimar Republic and gives power to Hitler? Hell, without Ludendorff, who establishes and popularizes the "stabbed in the back" narrative?

DCEU WW2 might not look a lot like ours.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

Yeah, what the hell is this.

It is important that Logan's ultimate enemy

Spoiler

be his clone

because it's a physical representation of his internal struggle, against both his nature as a killer and his own body,

Spoiler

which is betraying him

.

Ares is just the fucking worst. The entire third act is thematically muddied, and the movie doesn't succeed in giving Diana's fight with Ares any emotional stakes or relevance to her personal story.

I almost pre-empted my Logan comment by stating that I completely understood what it was going for, and still thought it was garbage.

 

[Principate]

The timer doesn't make any sense because they had a shot of the route of the plane supposedly going to London, so Trevor would have an age to ditch it in the sea.

Honestly the 3rd act doesn't really make much sense or stand up too much.

Do you really want to dump a massive amount of poisonous pollutant into the sea if your objective is to save lives. Sounds shortsighted as fuck.

 

[Toothless]

Despite the trappings of a cinematic universe, Wonder Woman upon rewatch becomes stronger thanks to its unique simplicity and huge heart. A delightfully sincere movie.

 

[GhaleonEB]

WW was even better the second time around. Most (thought not all) of my problems on the first go diminished and I found new appreciation for what worked well.

Can we not spoil Logan in a Wonder Woman thread? Thanks.

I just had a major plot point for it spoiled in here, mistaking it for a WW topic. Seriously, get that stuff OUT of here.

 

[Kin5290]

A major problem with the themes of this movie is that the humanity of the German soldiers is never shown. They exist to be cut down by the dozens by Diana and company, and they're never shown in the context of being victims of the war (like how Allied soldiers are shown as bloody and broken men being rushed to a hospital). The movie could have benefited from a scene where Diana looks upon the carnage she has wrought on the German soldiers she kills in the town or the airfield. Speaking of the town, the sequence where a Belgian civilian speaks of atrocities committed own her neighbors exists only to provide a license for guilt free slaughter

The horror and tragedy of the hero's killing of the enemy isn't necessary to show in a superhero movie, but this is a movie explicitly about the causes of war, set in a time period where no one side on the battlefield could be described as unambiguously evil.

Plus, the key moral that Diana learns by the end is undercut by the fact that the next war to come along is going to be far, far worse, and there's no indication that she intervened in any way there.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

WW was even better the second time around. Most (thought not all) of my problems on the first go diminished and I found new appreciation for what worked well.



I just had a major plot point for it spoiled in here, mistaking it for a WW topic. Seriously, get that stuff OUT of here.

Sorry, hope it wasn't from me. I hate hate getting spoiled on shit.

Despite the trappings of a cinematic universe, Wonder Woman upon rewatch becomes stronger thanks to its unique simplicity and huge heart. A delightfully sincere movie.

Agreed. I think I could see this for a 3rd time. It just has a quality to it I can't put my finger on.

 

[MadLaughter]

So I really think I missed something about the final message of the film.

Diana thinks that she can end war and cure man of bloodlust by killing Ares.

Steve says that perhaps humans are flawed innately but worth saving because they can overcome it.

Diana kills Ares and then the Germans are hugging people. So... humans don't have agency? We'd be hunky dory without pesky gods?

 

[Violence Jack]

Maybe I'm missing something. I didn't enjoy WW as much as I thought I would. Is it a good film? Sure. Is it the best DC movie since TDK? Absolutely. I loved the island scenes, the fight scenes were great, the chemistry between Chris Pine and Gadot was good, etc. But overall, it felt like something was missing once they left the island. It became very cookie cutter and mostly predictable. That is, except for the villain reveal. I certainly didn't see that coming, but it felt shoehorned in, and kinda weak.

I'm glad I saw it, but it wasn't "one of the best superhero films ever made" as I've heard some of my friends refer to it. But Gadot makes for a great WW.

 

[Lionel Richie]

Just got back from it and my god it's one of the best comic book movies I ever watched. Beautiful stuff, very epic and it's a tremendous sensorial spectacle (that one scene where she holds the shield with fools shooting at her almost in no mans land almost got me crying for whatever reason lol). It deserves all the success it's having.

That being said, I love how all of these movies always have some shit logic scene. This one is the scene where she rushes the enemy base, throws the fucking general of their army high in the air and picks him up with a goddamn whip made of light and nobody notices. Not a single soldier even looks that way. Chris Pine even has the audacity of going up the stairs shouting DIANA but goes down whispering to his friends stealthily, like what the fuck.

 

[TheTylerDurden]

Sorry, hope it wasn't from me. I hate hate getting spoiled on shit.

Agreed. I think I could see this for a 3rd time. It just has a quality to it I can't put my finger on.

It's Diana's character. Gadot does a really terrific job of making you feel her character deeply. She did a really stellar job at making this character completely hers.

There are key moments in the movie where the emotion hits pretty hard (anyone that's seen the movie twice, especially, will know what I mean). On my second viewing I was actually quite surprised at how hard those emotions hit me in spite of seeing the movie prior.

p.s. go ahead and see it a third time! You won't be alone in having done so.

 

[TheTylerDurden]

Wonder Woman Justice League spoiler below

According to an article on RT (based on a Collider article):

Spoiler

It was also confirmed this week that two of Gal Gadot's Wonder Woman co-stars will be joining her in this November's Justice League, as both Robin Wright and Connie Nielsen are expected to return as General Antiope and Queen Hippolyta

If true, this is awesome!

 

[StarCreator]

Wonder Woman Justice League spoiler below

According to an article on RT (based on a Collider article):

Spoiler

It was also confirmed this week that two of Gal Gadot’s Wonder Woman co-stars will be joining her in this November’s Justice League, as both Robin Wright and Connie Nielsen are expected to return as General Antiope and Queen Hippolyta

If true, this is awesome!

I remember hearing that Justice League

Spoiler

flashes back to a pre-Diana battle

for some reason.

 

[Shoeless]

I remember hearing that Justice League

Spoiler

flashes back to a pre-Diana battle

for some reason.

Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if we get some kind of prologue similar to the one that opened The Fellowship of the Ring, only instead of talking about a war of Elves, Man and Orcs over a ring, it'll be Amazons and Parademons over a Motherbox.