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[Zips]

People get complacent over time, and I feel we are in a period of extreme complacency - possibly due to a long period of relative peace and stability. Things need to get bad enough and directly, visibly impact their lives before people will get off their ass to do anything about it.

Trump is a disgrace, but he hasn't directly and visibly impacted the lives of enough people yet for them to look up from their phones, computers, or TV's. Healthcare is the closest he's come, and that is now being called dead.

One thing I've noticed is that everyone is always busy in their own minds (even when they aren't really), and will use that as an excuse for anything they don't feel like taking the time to do.

It's sad to see people in this thread already laying the groundwork in their own minds for not bothering to vote. 'Both sides...', 'I'm working', 'my vote won't be the DECIDING vote' (especially ridiculous), 'I won't vote for the party that most closely represents my views until they represent them even more' (ignoring that votes can slowly shift the window of discussion), etc. There will always be something.

 

[Machina]

Bernie needs to get on the soapbox in a big way

 

[LProtag]

This is depressing.

Especially considering how a bunch of my students (around 15-16) keep bragging about how they're one of the most conservative generations to come around since the baby boomers...

 

[Zimmy64]

Part of the issue is that our method of voting is archaic. There should be numerous ways and opportunities to vote. Voting day should be a federal paid holiday. People should have mail-in ballots and in-person voting. There should be transportation options set up specifically to take people to voting locations. People should be able to vote for up to two weeks prior to election day itself. Even if we can't make voting as simple as filling out a digital app via our phones due to security risks, we can certainly make the process easier for more people.

So it's not entirely Millenials' fault, even if a lot of them are stupid about voting.

I'll push you on this. I'm fine with all your proposed solution but how is not voting Millennials fault at all if their voting and not voting is immaterial to the results of the election.

 

[madstarr12]

Lol, it's the satisfaction of emotions that apparently is more important than actual policy to these young people, my generation. If they were racist and bigoted, they'd be defined perfectly along with the deplorables.

 

[Autodidact]

One thing I've noticed is that everyone is always busy in their own minds (even when they aren't really), and will use that as an excuse for anything they don't feel like taking the time to do.

You know, I think you touched on the problem, but I'd like to state it more bluntly and concisely:

They're lazy and self-centered.

 

[WiiredShawn]

This is a thing, though. Early voting is relatively common. Yet here we still are.

Given the realities of what happened in 2016, there is zero shot at a fully digital election system. That idea is going to have to die for the near future.

True, but there's still a lot of nonsense. There should be consistent ID allowances across states. Voter registration should be as automatic as possible and not artificially restricted. More states should have mail-in ballots or vote "drop-off" stations that are conveniently located. There should be a mandated minimum number of voting stations based on population density or some other objective metric so that you're not left with people waiting in 6-hour lines because there's only two places to vote and they both close at 9pm (looking at you, North Carolina).

There are all kinds of things America could do to improve voting, even without a digital system. We don't because, by and large, Republicans suck. Which is why I desperately hope that, if Democrats ever retake the government, they actually enact voter reform.

I'll push you on this. I'm fine with all your proposed solution but how is not voting Millennials fault at all if their voting and not voting is immaterial to the results of the election.

I'm not sure I follow? Are you saying "it's not their fault for not voting when their votes don't produce meaningful results"?

If so, I get the sense of being "jaded" by feeling like your vote will be usurped by older voters who don't share your views or priorities. On the federal level, though, this is a problem with the Electoral College. It's entirely stupid to give a state's "points" exclusively to the majority and utterly disregard minority voters. As a millenial liberal living in Kentucky, this is a problem I loathe everyday. It's why we should also have the president elected specifically by some version of the popular vote.

Sorry if I'm mistaken in understanding you.

This is depressing.

Especially considering how a bunch of my students (around 15-16) keep bragging about how they're one of the most conservative generations to come around since the baby boomers...

That's...disconcerting. In what part of the country do you teach?

 

[Zimmy64]

This is depressing.

Especially considering how a bunch of my students (around 15-16) keep bragging about how they're one of the most conservative generations to come around since the baby boomers...

Of note:

http://dailycaller.com/2017/07/01/new-study-generation-z-votes-republican/

I'm right on the cusp of Gen Y and Z (Born 1994) which makes me one of the youngest Gen Ys. Honestly anecdotally the change was already taking place towards the end of Gen Y. 93 ,94, 95ers are generally more conservative than those born in the mid to late 80s.

 

[Zimmy64]

on this note, i've also placed a hold on Democracy for Realists by Princeton's Christopher Achen and Larry Bartels, which seems to have similar arguments (but stops short of arguing against democracy, instead arguing for a "realist theory" of democracy)

trying to go into these without preconceptions, because that way I might actually learn something

That's always the best attitude to have. Curious what is your political affiliation? Do you have an interest in Politics and/or Philosophy?

Sorry Double Post: Come on people Knee jerk faster

 

[excelsiorlef]

You could actually have volunteered for Hillary so thanks for not trying hard enough and contributing to Trump's win

Dude's not even American, just stanning for the apathetic ones who don't want to vote anymore because Trump won...

I mean I'm not American either but I'm not trying to give cover and moral justification for people not engaging in the only system capable of stopping white nationalism.


Also if people want to enact change, get involved in the primaries... Don't wait until your Candidate for President, Senator, Congress person has been chosen completely by someone else and then decide that they aren't good enough for you.... get involved early, fight for the type of candidates you want to see (and for the love of good if you're gonna push for primarying sitting officials make sure you've got credible candidates... and make sure you know about them so you aren't propping up conspiracy theorists that you'll then have to deny ever having heard of them).

Get involved... and be prepared to compromise but if enough young people engage at the primary level, they'll become a voting block instead of a silent block and you can affect change.... But if you just wait till everyone else decides who they want you'll never even get a crack at who you want.

That said if you care about stopping literally one of the worst political parties (that is capable of actually winning elections) and don't want to engage on the ground level, then just vote Democrat.... They're the only ones who can oppose, so just go do it.

 

[Dirca]

Oh look, its our resident both sides are the same third party who thinks hes so cool for being above the struggles of actual people.

Well you're not wrong

 

[Briarios]

I'm sorry, maybe I'm missing something, but isn't this pretty much good news?

Typical drop off for mid-term elections is usually 50-60% ... most the demographics listed are polling much better than that. I mean, they compare presidential election years 2012-2016 to presidential year 2016 and midterm 2018. They expected fall should be much higher, so people in those groups are more motivated than typical.

 

[KojiKnight]

It's a midterm election... Of course the voter turn out is going to be a lot lower. Education needs to happen in high schools to really push how important Senate votes are, not just presidential ones

 

[jerry113]

Not voting is equivalent to voting for the Republicans.

 

[Evil Monkey DTT]

Couple things.
1. Bernie or busters gave trump the presidency.
2. We need to make voting easier to do, I had to skip work to vote and I myself am a millennial.
3. We have a major problem in this country that's unspoken and it's our defeatism. Many people didn't vote because they can't a difference. The nothing will come of it responses I always see kinda speak for what the American outlook has been. We don't fight the same way we used to and we need a spark.
4. Voting shouldn't be a right, it should be mandatory but Republicans will make sure that never happens.
5. Bernie or busters gave trump the presidency.

 

[Foffy]

Apathy is acceptance, and Millennials have been a fucking fictional universe worth of lore to help encapsulate this feeling of enervation.

Why should a generation that has had every promise of the "good life" systemically taken away from them care about the society that has lied and conned them? Better to double down on the myths of isolationism that the culture has adopted over the last 30+ years, for the act of solidarity is seen as a fringe, radical act.

Not that I am saying one should do this, but people are cultivations, and one has to begin to wonder why social media tweets and twits seems like the ideal for many, and I assure you laziness is not it. It's that every other channel has been dissected from people. A generation that likely has to Google search what work-related benefits ever were, a generation that is constantly attacked for "failing to assimilate" be it to home or car ownership or even "living on your own" are things to attack an entire generation for because any and all attempts at prosperity in this climate seem profoundly bathed in conflict and violence. People would rather opt out than stare at the emptiness given to them, lied as a fully featured meal.

Many people feel no hope and thus have no interest, no engagement, and the culture at large has absolutely done its fair share at creating this situation.

Remember, this is the same climate where people using GoFundMe for fucking cancer assistance is seen as normal. Are you really shocked that the generation inheriting this doesn't care? We're not rioting over the streets at the depth of inequalities, and again, this is often by design: do it by yourself and you're a cook, do it with others and you're a cult. Better to make ironic memes on Twitter about the whole thing because anything else gets weaponized.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

I am impossibly confused by the reactions in this thread.

This study just averages out turnout among minority and millennial groups over the last three midterms and then calculates the expected population growth for 2018.

It's not a poll or anything...

The paper just says "Millennials and minorities will have to turn out more in this midterm than in the last two for the Democrats to win."

It's not a poll...

 

[Autodidact]

I am impossibly confused by the reactions in this thread.

This study just averages out turnout among minority and millennial groups over the last three midterms and then calculates the expected population growth for 2018.

It's not a poll or anything...

The paper just says "Millennials and minorities will have to turn out more in this midterm than in the last two for the Democrats to win."

It's not a poll...

"Trump won so everything is fucked and nothing good will ever happen again. QED."

Self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

[Hockeymac18]

http://data.voterparticipation.org/...lectorate-2012-2016-predicting-2018-drop-off/









Some TL;DR from Mic.com's coverage:

If so, any crazy outside chance of the Democratic party making big gains in that midterm are kissed out the window.

 

[Zimmy64]

True, but there's still a lot of nonsense. There should be consistent ID allowances across states. Voter registration should be as automatic as possible and not artificially restricted. More states should have mail-in ballots or vote "drop-off" stations that are conveniently located. There should be a mandated minimum number of voting stations based on population density or some other objective metric so that you're not left with people waiting in 6-hour lines because there's only two places to vote and they both close at 9pm (looking at you, North Carolina).

There are all kinds of things America could do to improve voting, even without a digital system. We don't because, by and large, Republicans suck. Which is why I desperately hope that, if Democrats ever retake the government, they actually enact voter reform.



I'm not sure I follow? Are you saying "it's not their fault for not voting when their votes don't produce meaningful results"?

If so, I get the sense of being "jaded" by feeling like your vote will be usurped by older voters who don't share your views or priorities. On the federal level, though, this is a problem with the Electoral College. It's entirely stupid to give a state's "points" exclusively to the majority and utterly disregard minority voters. As a millennial liberal living in Kentucky, this is a problem I loathe everyday. It's why we should also have the president elected specifically by some version of the popular vote.

Sorry if I'm mistaken in understanding you.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. If I understand correctly. Your argument is that

1) Millennials if they voted would vote democratic
2) Voting democratic leads to good policy
3) Millennials don't vote
4) By not voting millennials let bad policy happen

Therefore;

Bad policy is at least partially millennials fault

My objection is to the last premise. For the sake of argument I'll grant you premises 1-3 even though I disagree with premise 2 and to a lesser extent premise 1. As I discussed before higher turnout is, despite common wisdom, not correlated at all with increased electoral support for democrats or progressive causes. Higher turnout was not effect on elections if the voter pool is large enough (research shows that 20,000 is the number). Think of it this way if you ran the 2016 election with 20,000 voters or 200 million voters the result would be the same.

Before you mentioned fault. You could mean too things. Either millennials are at fault for not voting and letting bad policy happen which I've disproven or millennials incur some sort of moral fault because they violate some sort of duty to vote (if that's your position you need to provide some compelling justification that duty actually exists). Empirical and normative (strengthened by empirical) research shows that it's ridiculous to blame any individual for not voting for consequentialist or deontological reasons and if people want the research I'll give it to them

 

[Wilsongt]

Rip America. Millenials too busy to fall on love with a non-Bernie candidate.

 

[Azzanadra]

Rip America. Millenials too busy to fall on love with a non-Bernie candidate.

The kids love someone who can inspire them. See how Corbyn got the kids out this past month? I feel like Bernie could've done the same if President, but seeing how he's still a Senator, he would still at some capacity still be able to do that.

Maybe.

Spoiler

But only in Vermont in which case there is no chance he will lose his seat anyways...

 

[Branduil]

I am impossibly confused by the reactions in this thread.

This study just averages out turnout among minority and millennial groups over the last three midterms and then calculates the expected population growth for 2018.

It's not a poll or anything...

The paper just says "Millennials and minorities will have to turn out more in this midterm than in the last two for the Democrats to win."

It's not a poll...

Sorry but this is now a Millennials ranting thread. Please make a post about how millennials are too busy eating avocado toast to vote and it's their fault Trump won even though Baby Boomers voted for him overwhelmingly.

 

[titiklabingapat]

We deserve what we're gonna get if we don't show up in 2018.

 

[MajinSweet4]

Picture it from my generations perspective, even before Trump the world looks like it's poised to turn into a fucking hellscape with automation looming, global warming probably making it so having kids is unethical, the housing market being so fucked that most people will never own one and people living paycheck to paycheck to maintain bare subsistence

And then trump happens, of course you're going to be depressed as shit and not want to vote

This is general feeling I've noticed from "millenial" aged people I know. Trump isn't firing them up to vote, it was the final nail in the coffin for them having any interest in politics or any hope for a better future.

 

[Zimmy64]

Not voting is equivalent to voting for the Republicans.

Except its empirically not and nearly all professional political scientists and philosophers agree that its not. Research shows that the group of voters that do vote look like the group that doesn't ideologically. As long as enough people vote the results won't change. How much is enough? 20,000 that's right voter turnout has to be lower than 20,000 before you see election results changing. Turnout is not correlated with one side winning elections either way. Also another fun fact its also not correlated with electoral success for minor/third parties.

 

[Foffy]

The kids love someone who can inspire them. See how Corbyn got the kids out this past month? I feel like Bernie could've done the same if President, but seeing how he's still a Senator, he would still at some capacity still be able to do that.

Maybe.

Spoiler

But only in Vermont in which case there is no chance he will lose his seat anyways...

2016 saw America try and get on the "politics of paradise" narrative from populists.

Unfortunately, we got the paradise of con artistry and incompetence at an unfathomable level.

 

[MrMephistoX]

Fuck humanist if this is true I'm seriously moving to Canada this time no fucking hope,left.

 

[WiiredShawn]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. If I understand correctly. Your argument is that

1) Millennials if they voted would vote democratic
2) Voting democratic leads to good policy
3) Millennials don't vote
4) By not voting millennials let bad policy happen

Therefore;

Bad policy is at least partially millennials fault

My objection is to the last premise. For the sake of argument I'll grant you premises 1-3 even though I disagree with premise 2 and to a lesser extent premise 1. As I discussed before higher turnout is, despite common wisdom, not correlated at all with increased electoral support for democrats or progressive causes. Higher turnout was not effect on elections if the voter pool is large enough (research shows that 20,000 is the number). Think of it this way if you ran the 2016 election with 20,000 voters or 200 million voters the result would be the same.

Before you mentioned fault. You could mean too things. Either millennials are at fault for not voting and letting bad policy happen which I've disproven or millennials incur some sort of moral fault because they violate some sort of duty to vote (if that's your position you need to provide some compelling justification that duty actually exists). Empirical and normative (strengthened by empirical) research shows that it's ridiculous to blame any individual for not voting for consequentialist or deontological reasons and if people want the research I'll give it to them

That's probably more of an extrapolation than I intended to convey. The main point is that voting should be easier so that more people can exercise that right. There are millennials who are jaded and/or shortsighted about the importance of voting, but there are older people who suffer the same issues, so it's not age restricted. There are also Republican-leaning people who may be disclined from voting just like Democrat-leaning people (think of the non-college educated white males that Trump inspired to vote).

But I do think (and I might be wrong about this; feel free to correct me) that there are certain groups who are dissuaded from voting. The kind of reliable voting block that you find among well-off, evangelical Republicans is harder to find on the left. They seem to be more militant about their voting because 1) they have more time and resources for voting (e.g., they're not at risk of losing their job because they decide to go vote instead of going to work) and 2) they're more ideologically unified and invested in fighting this "culture war." There's a lot of people on the left - and this encompasses a chunk of millennials, but certainly not all - who simply lack that militant attitude and would prefer to express their views via the path of least resistance (e.g., social media).

I don't think that's a bad thing; it means they're less ideologically zealous than a lot of Republicans. But it also means they're less motivated to act. Couple that with the various inconveniences of voting and you get a group that might just resign itself to "meh, what's it matter? The world just sucks and there's nothing I can do."

If we made voting easier, at least, we might help curb some of that attitude. That's really my point. But to concede to your point, we'd be making voting easier for everyone - including more conservatives. So maybe it wouldn't matter, statistically. I don't know. It's still something we should do, though, so that people can feel like it's easier to participate in their democracy.

 

[Not]

Bernie needs to get on the soapbox in a big way

Cause that soapbox really got people off their ass to vote for Hillary last November

 

[LProtag]

That's...disconcerting. In what part of the country do you teach?

Connecticut.

 

[WiiredShawn]

Connecticut.

Give those kids copies of The Handmaid's Tale, pronto!

 

[wolfhowwl]

I see the usual suspects are still going on about Bernie or Busters instead of blaming themselves for running an incompetent corrupt establishment apparatchik. Did you guys check under your beds for Berniebros tonight? Maybe you'll find Clinton's emails there too.

In another time and place these YAAAAS QUEEN HillGAF zealots would not be out of place in say the Khmer Rouge going by their behavior here doing the primaries and leading up to the election.

Anyone that did not accept their dogma and fall in on the DNC party line was forced to engage in Maoist self-confession for the crime of supporting a people's candidate over a Wall Street hack and then would exit the thread to be metaphorically executed (banned) for what they confessed as in the film The Killing Fields.

Is it any wonder that millenials don't want anything to do with the morally and intellectually bankrupt Democratic Party and would rather just stay home?

 

[Ominym]

There's nothing to inspire people, why vote?

I mean, I vote in every election. I'm just speaking to the depressive atmosphere and lack of genuine, passionate candidates.

Because you will never have a candidate that appeals to 100% of your ideology? Because voting a group of people who are killing our country out of office is important to us all? Because you get better candidates when they can see which way people will vote so they're not running off limited data?

Take your pick. But this whole voter apathy angle is so tired. If Trump doesn't galvanize you daily? I don't think being stirred from your couch by a candidate is your problem.

 

[RoyaleDuke]

Do they not care about all this bullshit that's happening?!

If THIS doesn't make us vote, what the fuck WILL??!!



25 here, pretty sure I'm a millennial

The reality is that nothing will.

We are genuinely fucked. Welcome to the Orwellian state.

I see the usual suspects are still going on about Bernie or Busters instead of blaming themselves for running an incompetent corrupt establishment apparatchik. Did you guys check under your beds for Berniebros tonight? Maybe you'll find Clinton's emails there too.

In another time and place these YAAAAS QUEEN HillGAF zealots would not be out of place in say the Khmer Rouge going by their behavior here doing the primaries and leading up to the election.

Anyone that did not accept their dogma and fall in on the DNC party line was forced to engage in Maoist self-confession for the crime of supporting a people's candidate over a Wall Street hack and then would exit the thread to be metaphorically executed (banned) for what they confessed as in the film The Killing Fields.

Is it any wonder that millenials don't want anything to do with the morally and intellectually bankrupt Democratic Party and would rather just stay home?

We get it, you love Trump.

 

[Kenai]

Apathy is acceptance, and Millennials have been a fucking fictional universe worth of lore to help encapsulate this feeling of enervation.

Why should a generation that has had every promise of the "good life" systemically taken away from them care about the society that has lied and conned them? Better to double down on the myths of isolationism that the culture has adopted over the last 30+ years, for the act of solidarity is seen as a fringe, radical act.

Not that I am saying one should do this, but people are cultivations, and one has to begin to wonder why social media tweets and twits seems like the ideal for many, and I assure you laziness is not it. It's that every other channel has been dissected from people. A generation that likely has to Google search what work-related benefits ever were, a generation that is constantly attacked for "failing to assimilate" be it to home or car ownership or even "living on your own" are things to attack an entire generation for because any and all attempts at prosperity in this climate seem profoundly bathed in conflict and violence. People would rather opt out than stare at the emptiness given to them, lied as a fully featured meal.

Many people feel no hope and thus have no interest, no engagement, and the culture at large has absolutely done its fair share at creating this situation.

Remember, this is the same climate where people using GoFundMe for fucking cancer assistance is seen as normal. Are you really shocked that the generation inheriting this doesn't care? We're not rioting over the streets at the depth of inequalities, and again, this is often by design: do it by yourself and you're a cook, do it with others and you're a cult. Better to make ironic memes on Twitter about the whole thing because anything else gets weaponized.

Thanks for this. Shaking internet fists at millennials and calling them lazy is going to do what exactly, people? You think that's some kind of enlightening, rousing speech? Because I'm pretty sure there's already a bunch of "millenials are ruining X" gathered together somewhere and that's a pretty old page. Hinging so much blame on one specific voting block that rarely if ever has had any impact on the national stage to begin with is quite a crock of sh*t and ya'll know it. Might as well hope AHCA gets repealed so the Boomers die off in droves when they can't afford their pills, that'll work just as well for meaningful dialogue.

 

[The Wraith]

I'm 33 so I guess I'm considered an old millennial. I have voted every election I was eligle to do so. I will continue to do so as well.

 

[Earthstrike]

Turnout always drop in even years that aren't presidential elections. Naturally it will be true that millennial turnout will drop.

 

[Not]

In another time and place these YAAAAS QUEEN HillGAF zealots would not be out of place in say the Khmer Rouge going by their behavior here doing the primaries and leading up to the election.

The Khmer Rouge used to take babies by their legs and bash their brains in against trees.

 

[jack_package_200]

I see the usual suspects are still going on about Bernie or Busters instead of blaming themselves for running an incompetent corrupt establishment apparatchik. Did you guys check under your beds for Berniebros tonight? Maybe you'll find Clinton's emails there too.

In another time and place these YAAAAS QUEEN HillGAF zealots would not be out of place in say the Khmer Rouge going by their behavior here doing the primaries and leading up to the election.

Anyone that did not accept their dogma and fall in on the DNC party line was forced to engage in Maoist self-confession for the crime of supporting a people's candidate over a Wall Street hack and then would exit the thread to be metaphorically executed (banned) for what they confessed as in the film The Killing Fields.

Is it any wonder that millenials don't want anything to do with the morally and intellectually bankrupt Democratic Party and would rather just stay home?

Its been a long time since I have seen a post this fucking terrible

 

[Suikoguy]

Its been a long time since I have seen a post this fucking terrible

It's the only reason I check into these threads.
I just secretly hope they are an extreme minority, and don't have children.

 

[Zimmy64]

Honestly seeing all these progressive liberals complaining about turnout is driving me crazy. I'm a libertarian. I have a pretty good socialist friend (Bernie guy). We discuss Politics and Philosophy all the time. One of the things we like to discuss is "The state of the game." There is a big normative element to politics yes but there is a game-like side to it too. Campaigns matter, strategies matter, ideas matter. Right now democrats (whatever you think of their policies normatively) are losing the game.

Here is where you should listen. Stop caring about voter turnout. It's plenty high enough. Now if you want proposals to increase turnout for non-consequentalist reasons (more people voting is more democratic for example) good for you as long as those proposals are non-coercive. They won't make a lick of difference when the ballots are counted though.

I don't know why Hilary lost (I haven't done that research and I'm epistemically humble enough to admit it) but it wasn't turnout. Low Turnout is a red herring for this and all other elections What are you going to do when voting is online, cost-less, let's say even compulsory and the Republicans win just as many elections as they did before. What are you going to blame it on then? I mean god damn it's political malpractice. I'm not attacking your ideology. I'm attacking how you play the game.

Now here's why you should listen, You progressives care about a bundle of goods, right? For the sake of argument I'll assume your 100% right and the Republicans are 100% the demons you make them out to be. You care about the poor, free healthcare, LGBT rights, civil rights, helping the disadvantaged, material equality. If you expend energy on voter turnout proposals which in the end will lead to absolutely nothing you know what doesn't happen care for the poor, free healthcare, LGBT rights, civil rights, the disadvantaged are left behind, and civil rights regress. You won't take time to understand the real reason democrats are losing and as a result those evil republicans will destroy everything you stand for and make the world a living cesspool. Opportunity Costs Matter. This navel-gazing when it comes to turnout isn't only political malpractice it's immoral as well and it's immoral by your own progressive standards (I'm assuming most of GAF is progressive and democratic) not my libertarian ones.

Honestly do you all agree that letting poor people suffer, people die, LGBT and black citizens being persecuted, the disadvantaged being stepped on is worth it because the idea that if more people voted the world would be a better place makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside (despite overwhelmingly evidence it would not change the world at all). If so you all have messed up priorities

TLDR: Don't give a damn about voter turnout. Overwhelming research shows it doesn't make a difference either way. Opportunity costs matter. Instead figure out the real reason Hilary lost and advance policies that actually make people's lives better.

 

[Kthulhu]

This doesn't seem out of the ordinary for a midterm?

My thoughts too. Haven't democrats in general typically turned out less in midterms?

 

[Dash_Riprock]

Shit you would think fear would be enough in this case.

Unless there is a 9/11 level event, fear is actually a poor motivator. 9/11's impact was immediately tangible. Most of what Trump is doing won't be.

 

[googleplex]

Cause that soapbox really got people off their ass to vote for Hillary last November

Kinda hard to get people to vote for someone, that you previously called corrupt, elitist, war monger who was rigging the primaries and was was going to sell the county to evil wall street for 10 straight months.

The Damage Bernie Sanders did did to Hillary's campaign and continued to do long after he lost can be stated enough.

 

[Tommy DJ]

I don't know why Hilary lost (I haven't done that research and I'm epistemically humble enough to admit it) but it wasn't turnout. Low Turnout is a red herring for this and all other elections What are you going to do when voting is online, cost-less, let's say even compulsory and the Republicans win just as many elections as they did before. What are you going to blame it on then? I mean god damn it's political malpractice. I'm not attacking your ideology. I'm attacking how you play the game.

This will never happen in the United States because that would eliminate the entire concept of voter suppression. Republicans would never win another election again.

Voter turnout in all elections do matter, which is why the US elections have this song and dance that we never see in Australian politics. Hell, just this year proved that voter turnout is extremely important: one of the key reasons why Jeremy Corbyn outperformed in so many ways was because his campaign drove record high election turnout among 18-24 year olds.

In the United States, only some 55% of voting age adults actually vote in the Presidential election. That's exceedingly low and one of the lowest in the developed world. The amount is even lower in midterms. Its not malpractice to increase the amount of people going to the polls, are you kidding me.

 

[Zimmy64]

That's probably more of an extrapolation than I intended to convey. The main point is that voting should be easier so that more people can exercise that right. There are millennials who are jaded and/or shortsighted about the importance of voting, but there are older people who suffer the same issues, so it's not age restricted. There are also Republican-leaning people who may be disclined from voting just like Democrat-leaning people (think of the non-college educated white males that Trump inspired to vote).

But I do think (and I might be wrong about this; feel free to correct me) that there are certain groups who are dissuaded from voting. The kind of reliable voting block that you find among well-off, evangelical Republicans is harder to find on the left. They seem to be more militant about their voting because 1) they have more time and resources for voting (e.g., they're not at risk of losing their job because they decide to go vote instead of going to work) and 2) they're more ideologically unified and invested in fighting this "culture war." There's a lot of people on the left - and this encompasses a chunk of millennials, but certainly not all - who simply lack that militant attitude and would prefer to express their views via the path of least resistance (e.g., social media).

I don't think that's a bad thing; it means they're less ideologically zealous than a lot of Republicans. But it also means they're less motivated to act. Couple that with the various inconveniences of voting and you get a group that might just resign itself to "meh, what's it matter? The world just sucks and there's nothing I can do."

If we made voting easier, at least, we might help curb some of that attitude. That's really my point. But to concede to your point, we'd be making voting easier for everyone - including more conservatives. So maybe it wouldn't matter, statistically. I don't know. It's still something we should do, though, so that people can feel like it's easier to participate in their democracy.

I think I get where your coming from now. If the bolded really is your position then it's rational to care about turnout for non-consequentalist reasons. I have no problem with making it easier to vote as long as those means are non-coercive and don't violate people's rights (For example I oppose compulsory voting for violating the right not to speak) but all your proposals are fine. I just want to dissuade people of the notion that higher turnout means democrats would win more. If this forum was majority republican I would be trying to dissuade them of the idea that low turnout helps republicans. I would levy the same criticism I levied on GAF. They care about a bundle of goods and think that democrats are evil so they pass Voter ID/suppression laws to curb turnout despite the fact the lowered turnout doesn't help them so they waste time and resources that could go towards policies they think make the world better. Once again it's immoral by their standards not my libertarian standards or most of GAF's progressive ones.

 

[JettDash]

Republicans win because they are willing to lie and cheat. And they have a brainwashed base that will reliably show up for them.

Democrats try to be honest and fair. And many likely Democratic voters will stay home if they do not feel sufficiently wooed. Better to let things go completely to shit if you don't get everything you want, apparently.

I think I get where your coming from now. If the bolded really is your position then it's rational to care about turnout for non-consequentalist reasons. I have no problem with making it easier to vote as long as those means are non-coercive and don't violate people's rights (For example I oppose compulsory voting for violating the right not to speak) but all your proposals are fine. I just want to dissuade people of the notion that higher turnout means democrats would win more. If this forum was majority republican I would be trying to dissuade them of the idea that low turnout helps republicans. I would levy the same criticism I levied on GAF. They care about a bundle of goods and think that democrats are evil so they pass Voter ID/suppression laws to curb turnout despite the fact the lowered turnout doesn't help them so they waste time and resources that could go towards policies they think make the world better. Once again it's immoral by their standards not my libertarian standards or most of GAF's progressive ones.

Higher turnout of people likely to vote Democrat obviously means that Democrats are more likely to win. Which is why Republican voter suppression schemes specifically target those that are likely to vote Democrat.

If their voter suppression schemes targeted everyone equally, I would agree that it was a waste of time, but that is not the case. They know what they are doing.

 

[Tommy DJ]

Compulsory voting doesn't violate the right not to speak. In Australia, you still have the right "not to speak". Its called doing a donkey vote. You submit a blank ballot, draw a penis on it, tick every single candidate, whatever. No one knows because all votes are anonymous.

At the end of the day, all you have to do is get your name ticked off by the Australian Electoral Commission to not get slapped by a fine.

 

[Zimmy64]

This will never happen in the United States because that would eliminate the entire concept of voter suppression. Republicans would never win another election again.

Voter turnout in all elections do matter, which is why the US elections have this song and dance that we never see in Australian politics. Hell, just this year proved that voter turnout is extremely important: one of the key reasons why Jeremy Corbyn outperformed in so many ways was because his campaign drove record high election turnout among 18-24 year olds.

In the United States, only some 55% of voting age adults actually vote in the Presidential election. That's exceedingly low and one of the lowest in the developed world. The amount is even lower in midterms. Its not malpractice to increase the amount of people going to the polls, are you kidding me.

Why do you care about turnout? If you care about society being more democratic and you think more people voting makes society more democratic I have no qualms with that. If you care about turnout because you think that it will help democrats win more elections shows that's not true (Brennan, Birch, Highton, and Wolfinger, among others all agree on this point). It's political malpractice for the democrats because it won't help them win elections. Are you going to post any social scientific research or just say I'm wrong without anything to back it up?

We have a saying in Philosophy. Common Sense is wrong. Philosophies job is to take what you know about the world, what you think you know, what you've been taught and deconstruct and dismantle it. Political Philosophies job is to do it in the realm of politics. It's why you have to have an open mind to succeed in philosophy.