Melon Husk
Member
Reviews are a form of influence.
Not everyone is a professional reviewer.
Either curate reviewers or deal with it
Incentivise "quality" reviews and you disrupt their neutrality. Same if you remove bad ones.
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People unhappy with DRM should give bad reviews to games with draconian DRMs on Steam
- Thread starter DD
- Start date
Reviews are a form of influence.
Not everyone is a professional reviewer.
Either curate reviewers or deal with it
Incentivise "quality" reviews and you disrupt their neutrality. Same if you remove bad ones.
But you can't just sidestep the issue when companies lie about it either. Sega dissapointingly had its PR team relay false information that the game was delayed for "polishing and bug fixes" but it was really for a Denuvo rushjob and still launched with some offline game breaking bugs.
Sad Affleck
Member
An email campaign only reaches the game's publisher. Steam reviews reach everyone, including potential future customers. Much more effective in my opinion.
I'm thinking of writing a proper review after playing it, and finishing it with something like "Sadly, since this game has Denuvo it's been effectively shipped with an unknown expiration date. Just for this reason I can't honestly recommend it."
Stone Ocean
Member
Do you honestly believe that will work?
Historically publishers only listen when we make a public mess because thats what gets the attention of the people that actually make decisions. Emails will go to people that probably dont even know what Denuvo is.
Complaints dont need to be clean and organized, and with refunds there is no risk of buying something that will not work.
I'd rather keep my money, as I said. You do what you think is best.
That just seems to be way more work than it's worth.
Look, Sega did some shady shit and got called on it. If you bought the game in good faith and were disappointed in the final product, blast them. All I'm saying is I wouldn't buy a game I have previous knowledge of, with issues that I know will impact my enjoyment of the game, just so that I can get the pleasure of writing a scathing review. Hell this is GAF, we bitch about shit we don't personally own all of the time. ..and if the outcry is loud enough, people usually take notice.
I don't think that would be nearly as effective as posting your complaints directly on the game's store page where literally everyone can see them.
Which is why refunds exist.
People shouldn't have to, but the reality is that it's probably the only thing people can do to be listened.
You can't simply vote with your wallet, because they simply don't know why a given sale ( and how many of them ) wasn't made. Lack of interest, price, the DRM how would they know.
And well it's also has more weight because not only they now might be missing sales ( even more so if you refound after leaving that review ) but now they will fear the additional sales they will be missing because of those review. So not only do you know you are heard, you also know you are making a greater impact than just not giving your own money.
As other people here stated, it also works well with how steam review works, which diminish/avoid long term negative impact if they end up removing the DRM :
- you can change your review
- there is a separation between recent and overall review
You can't simply vote with your wallet, because they simply don't know why a given sale ( and how many of them ) wasn't made. Lack of interest, price, the DRM how would they know.
And well it's also has more weight because not only they now might be missing sales ( even more so if you refound after leaving that review ) but now they will fear the additional sales they will be missing because of those review. So not only do you know you are heard, you also know you are making a greater impact than just not giving your own money.
As other people here stated, it also works well with how steam review works, which diminish/avoid long term negative impact if they end up removing the DRM :
- you can change your review
- there is a separation between recent and overall review
Which is why I said "That seems to be way more work than it's worth."
Stone Ocean
Member
Buying a game, leaving a review and getting an automated refund ain't any less bothersome than writing an email and trying to get people to do the same.
It's just my opinion. That's how I would handle it. I can write very persuasive emails.
Look, at the end of the day, handle it however you see fit. The end-goal is the same either way. Let the publisher know we are not happy with the game the way it is at the moment. Let's just call it a 2 pronged attack. Reviews and emails working in harmony. Ebony and Ivory.
Stone Ocean
Member
I won't say no to louder complaints, thats for sure.
I agree, if you strongly disagree with DRM then it's fine if it affects the score of your review.
(I know that's not what you meant
)Yeah, I think that's fine. It's not like someone on Amazon reviewing a shipping method or seller instead of the product. The DRM is part of the product and you'd mention it the same way you'd mention critical bugs.
Steam reviews are hot trash but like people have said if it actually alters the overall "grade" then pubs will take notice.
Steam reviews are hot trash but like people have said if it actually alters the overall "grade" then pubs will take notice.
Bad customer reviews for a game I know is supposed to be good has alerted me to bad ports and drm before, it's a good idea and works.
I'm assuming over the past 5 pages someone has pointed out that just not buying the game doesn't tell anyone anything, and as for email campaigns, I don't think the customer service department is in charge of drm decisions
I'm assuming over the past 5 pages someone has pointed out that just not buying the game doesn't tell anyone anything, and as for email campaigns, I don't think the customer service department is in charge of drm decisions
No it would be like saying "I loved this Tom Cruise movie, but those unskippable 15 minute long advertisement every 30 minutes make it not worth watching at the moment".
In the sense that, "those ads don't change the content of the movie - the movie is great - but are an additional annoyance and you also paid for them"
Tom Cruise's religious beliefs are irrelevant to the film's availability at any point in time. DRM is, by design, related to a game's capability to be launched, and the loss of the authentication servers can and will rend it unusable. So no, it wouldn't be like that at all.
Minsc
Gold Member
Yup. This is the truth right here. Unless your e-mail campaign is visibly preventing the game from making profits, it's not going to work a tenth as effectively as a eye-catching nasty review being prominently displayed to all customers at the point of purchase.
E-mail campaigns are like junk mail. 99% of the time they get disregarded without even being looked upon.
Bad reviews are like trying to sell a house that's falling apart with a dead front yard full of brown/yellow grass, etc. A huge warning that can't be missed.
yurinka
Member
People unhappy with DRM should stop pirating games and complaining about DRM. I still don't get why people who don't pirate games can complain about DRM.
You can play your games in a 2nd computer if needed and doesn't affect the performance of the games.
Bad reviews is for bad games, or games with huge issues. If you bought a game legally and couldn't play it for some time then a bad review makes sense in your particular case. But because you had this issue, not because the game had DRM. Are you sure the game was blocked because of Denuvo? Is that even possible? Maybe it didn't work for another issue.
You can play your games in a 2nd computer if needed and doesn't affect the performance of the games.
Bad reviews is for bad games, or games with huge issues. If you bought a game legally and couldn't play it for some time then a bad review makes sense in your particular case. But because you had this issue, not because the game had DRM. Are you sure the game was blocked because of Denuvo? Is that even possible? Maybe it didn't work for another issue.
Stone Ocean
Member
Except when it does.
Really? Can you honestly not conceive of concerns about the impact of DRM on modding or preservation?
I used to think like you do untill Denuvo blocked me from playing the games I paid for, and it wasn't just once. With F1 2016, for example, Denuvo blocked the game for me for two entire weeks, as I said on my first post here. So, yeah, I have my reasons...
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
I don't see the correlation here with Arkham Knight
Spring-Loaded
Member
WB pulled the game from STEAM because of the reviews and because of the "mostly negative" rating, lots of people were spared paying full price for a broken port. I think it's a good game when it works, but those bad reviews were deserved because the product itself was bad at the time. The reviews have improved over time as the game received patches, and while not all reviews got updated, they serve as documentation.
Not everyone who uses STEAM follows gaming news closely, and the reviews serve as a visible way to spread awareness of issues surrounding a given game. Considering how that review rating can entice or turn away potential customers, it's a valuable, powerful tool for the public to make sure game companies listen.
One instance like that doesn't invalidate all reviews.
So you're suggesting that people should complain when it is already too late to do anything about it, rather when the game is new and issues like that are entirely avoidable.
Great idea!
Minsc
Gold Member
Might I present to you some evidence opposing your thoughts:
This is from the Sonic Mania page, as of right now:
Exhibit A said:
Exhibit B said:
Now given those two images, I don't think it's entirely accurate to say no one takes the reviews seriously, when you have the developer responding directly on the same store page that sells their product to potential customers over the issue in the customers reviews.
FunkyMunkey
Banned
nope i disagree. the drm is part of the game at that point and other consumers need to be aware. don't put draconian drm in your game if you don't want to piss off consumers, period. and definitely dont be sneaky or shady about it
Temeculan3000
Member
Steam itself is draconian DRM.
Minsc
Gold Member
It is not, and this needs to stop too.
Temeculan3000
Member
I just meant in the sense that a company can remotely lock you out of all of your games.
I just went throught random 20+ games I own on Steam and every game had a decently written pro/con review/impression without needing to scroll down more than one page. Not saying that some of those you've listed don't exist, but there're always proper reviews among most upvoted as well. Not even once I encountered the game where I couldn't find a Steam review that didn't help me to learn more about the game quickly. People overblow the issue, closing their eyes on actually helpful reviews/impressions that are always near the top. The only exceptions I can think of is when developer/publisher made some anti-consumer decisions or the game just came out.
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
Ah ok I understand better now. Maybe I'm not being clear or explaining it well enough. I dont think reviews have no say so in the overall picture of a games quality like others have expressed. I think reviews are important, its the process of finding good reviews that needs to be figured out, but thats another topic for another time.
The DRM is something hardcore gamers hate, but most people who will buy Mania will never even know its there. That doesn't mean some people wont, but a majority of people will have zero clue and play the game and be happy.
If people go into Sonic Mania with this negative thought in mind about the DRM because they personally dont like it, and take "points" away just because of a policy, I think thats a disservice to the game.
Arkham Knight was a broken mess. Sonic Mania will likely not be but we dont know yet.
Factually speaking, it isn't.
They can't unless they go really out of their way to do it. Shit, if a game is DRM-free on Steam, they can lock you as much as GOG can.
Temeculan3000
Member
So they can.
If you have already downloaded it and made a backup of it. Something you wouldn't do if you trust them, so for this to work you have to not trust in Valve and Steam as a platform.
Torpedoing a game that might otherwise be great because you don't agree with the way in which the publisher has chosen to protect their investment doesn't feel like the way we should be going about things to me.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
This is sort of like saying that Amazon.com is DRM because what if you buy something and they never ship it to you. Yes, obviously for a digital good with no digital rights management, you still need to at some point download the item to be able to have the item on your computer. You are the first person I've seen to argue that GOG is draconian DRM.
Temeculan3000
Member
For digital goods Amazon is DRM. Remember when they remotely removed books from peoples' Kindles and accounts after they had already bought them?
With GOG I can download my games without needing any special software. Also GOG advertises no DRM. When you buy from GOG the only expectation is that they provide you a way to download the game.
With Steam the expectation is that you will have a valid account, an internet connection, and the Steam software installed for any game you want to play.
How are any of those platforms excessively harsh?
Same as GOG then, but you wouldn't call GOG DRM, would you?
The DRM, which has actual issues, is part of the product.
People are rating the product appropriately.
The system is working as intended.
Temeculan3000
Member
If Steam clearly advertised which games were DRM free and could be run 100% independent of Steam, sure. But they don't. You need to do your own research, on a game by game basis, and find out if the game works. Sometimes needing to do things like delete DLLs or rename Steam.exe to get it to work... clearly those games were not intended to run independent of Steam. Steam in no way presents itself as a platform where you can download the game files, make a backup yourself and run it anytime you want. GOG does.