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[royalan]

Explain what the original goalpost was and how I moved it.

You claimed Hillary didn't support a public option until Bernie dragged his campaign on.

You got that scalp dragged with receipts by multiple posters.

Then you amended your claim to be more specific.

 

[KHarvey16]

If you are not competitive in purple states, I really don't give a fuck.

How can it both be purple and noncompetitive?

 

[The Technomancer]

The reasonable criticism of Bernie's proposals is not that they're politically impractical, but that they are practically impractical -- which is to say, in general, they have not been spelled out enough to understand how they would be implemented, and in the cases where they were, they made unreasonable assumptions like very high GDP growth to reach reasonable funding levels.

This is actually a very notable critique -- as people have mentioned, Bernie has a strong record of getting amendments passed in the Senate. This requires a skilled legislative pen. Bernie should be capable of writing bills that could be passed as written. If he's choosing to push forward bills that can't be passed as written, it's appropriate to question whether those goals are practical or reasonable. After all, if he could write bills that just work, presumably he would be doing so.

Also the thing where he called open borders a Koch brothers plot was kind of notable to me, just saying

.

 

[kcp12304]

And Hillary LOST the South. Winning the Democrat vote in the South is like the world's most useless consolation prize. But he did better in all the purple states that actually MATTERED.

He lost Ohio, Florida, Iowa, Nevada, Pennsylvania.

Democratic voters in Southern States are still Democrats who should have a say in the primary.

 

[pigeon]

He is saying the DNC and Democratic politicians was already backing Hillary from the getgo is all. It isn't easy to overcome such a base that is already established, Trump managed to, but Bernie didn't for whatever reasons. Could possibly be due to the constant media Trump was getting lol.

Bernie didn't try.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

Lesson learned, I live in Texas, its Red, I'm not voting anymore.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

You claimed Hillary didn't support a public option until Bernie dragged his campaign on.

You got that scalp dragged with receipts by multiple posters.

Then you amended your claim to be more specific.

'more specific' was pointing out that 'empowering states' is not really a public option, and that if your standards for 'backing the public option' are 'supporting the status quo', you've gone wrong somewhere.

But fine, okay, say I shifted the goalposts, cool. We've nevertheless reached the point where: Clinton did not support the federally-backed public option for the duration of the 2016 primary, until just before Sanders' concession. I hope we can agree on this, since you've not provided any evidence to the contrary. So moving from this point:

Was this a free pony? Yes or no?

 

[Matt]

The constant lesson in these threads is that basically no one attacking the DNC here has any idea what it does.

 

[Widdle Puppy]

It's going to be a long and unknowable amount of time till we rebound from this L :\

Not holding my breath for anything but I think 2018 is where to focus before 2020.

 

[TwoDurans]

Loving how many bernebros on Reddit are up in arms over these two pages. Many of them were the same ones who said they'd be voting for Trump when Hillary won the nomination.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

The constant lesson in these threads is that basically no one attacking the DNC here has any idea what it does.

That and we really should just find the states that are close to 50/50 and let them elect the POTUS.

 

[RedZaraki]

He lost Ohio, Florida, Iowa, Nevada, Pennsylvania.

Democratic voters in Southern States are still Democrats who should have a say in the primary.

Democrats in the South don't consider abortion rights to be of any concern.

Yes, there's a difference between Southern Democrats and the rest of the country.

They don't show up, they don't care, they don't matter. Yes I said it. When there's enough of them to hit 40% vote in the state, sure, THEN I'll care.

Stop trying to win fucking Arksansas, Texas, and Mississippi. Start trying to win Wisconsin and Michigan. This isn't new ideas. This is looking at a goddamn map and knowing where to prioritize resources.

What difference does it matter how popular someone is in the South, when the whole fucking region is redwash. Like, seriously, 90% votes for R. It doesn't matter that you got 9% of the remaining 10% it doesn't matter a damn bit.

 

[exmachina64]

And Hillary LOST the South. Winning the Democrat vote in the South is like the world's most useless consolation prize. But he did better in all the purple states that actually MATTERED.

Should Democratic primaries not occur in states that tend to vote Republican in the general election?

 

[pigeon]

'more specific' was pointing out that 'empowering states' is not really a public option, and that if your standards for 'backing the public option' are 'supporting the status quo', you've probably gone wrong.

But fine, okay, say I shifted the goalposts, cool. We've nevertheless reached the point where: Clinton did not support the federally-backed public option for the duration of the 2016 primary, until just before Sanders' concession.

Was this a free pony? Yes or no?

For the record, I agree that "the public option" is implicitly federal. Saying you support states implementing public options on their own is meaningless. Of course you support that.

 

[royalan]

Bernie didn't try.

Exactly.

People continue to neglect to mention that the same "advantage" Hillary had in 2016 she also had in 2008. Didn't stop Obama from beating her.

It is absolutely fair to say that Bernie didn't try the moment he pulled out of the South.

 

[RedZaraki]

Lesson learned, I live in Texas, its Red, I'm not voting anymore.

Moving to a purple state would honestly be a powerful political move for you. Your voice would multiple times 100.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

For the record, I agree that "the public option" is implicitly federal. Saying you support states implementing public options on their own is meaningless. Of course you support that.

Thank you. I appreciate your role as a goal-position arbiter.

 

[TarNaru33]

Bernie didn't try.

Don't be silly, he would of needed to run much earlier and with much more funding to have won that. As I stated, on the Democratic side, it was considered over before it even begun. That is the reality of the Democratic primary in 2016 and the media shifted to Trump with some Hillary and a little bit of Bernie.

I mean just look at the super delegate fiasco, in which the big news sites were already showing Hillary with all the super delegates on her side and then after much criticism from the Bernie crowd, corrected it.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

Democrats in the South don't consider abortion rights to be of any concern.

Yes, there's a difference between Southern Democrats and the rest of the country.

They don't show up, they don't care, they don't matter. Yes I said it. When there's enough of them to hit 40% vote in the state, sure, THEN I'll care.

Stop trying to win fucking Arksansas, Texas, and Mississippi. Start trying to win Wisconsin and Michigan. This isn't new ideas. This is looking at a goddamn map and knowing where to prioritize resources.

What difference does it matter how popular someone is in the South, when the whole fucking region is redwash. Like, seriously, 90% votes for R. It doesn't matter that you got 9% of the remaining 10% it doesn't matter a damn bit.

JFC.

 

[RedZaraki]

Should Democratic primaries not occur in states that tend to vote Republican in the general election?

In my opinion, they shouldn't. And neither should solidly blue states.

In fact, I think we should only primary in purple and contested states. Because ultimately the rest are already decided. They're decided right now for 2020. They don't matter.

But that's if you want to take the angle of Victory means everything.

Apparently the Democrats don't care enough to want that.

 

[Matt]

Democrats in the South don't consider abortion rights to be of any concern.

Yes, there's a difference between Southern Democrats and the rest of the country.

They don't show up, they don't care, they don't matter. Yes I said it. When there's enough of them to hit 40% vote in the state, sure, THEN I'll care.

Stop trying to win fucking Arksansas, Texas, and Mississippi. Start trying to win Wisconsin and Michigan. This isn't new ideas. This is looking at a goddamn map and knowing where to prioritize resources.

What difference does it matter how popular someone is in the South, when the whole fucking region is redwash. Like, seriously, 90% votes for R. It doesn't matter that you got 9% of the remaining 10% it doesn't matter a damn bit.

Because a Primary is largely about the members of a political party choosing who they want to represent that party. A Democrat in Mississippi is just as much a Democrat as one in New York.

 

[googleplex]

Democrats in the South don't consider abortion rights to be of any concern.

Yes, there's a difference between Southern Democrats and the rest of the country.

They don't show up, they don't care, they don't matter. Yes I said it. When there's enough of them to hit 40% vote in the state, sure, THEN I'll care.

Stop trying to win fucking Arksansas, Texas, and Mississippi. Start trying to win Wisconsin and Michigan. This isn't new ideas. This is looking at a goddamn map and knowing where to prioritize resources.

What difference does it matter how popular someone is in the South, when the whole fucking region is redwash. Like, seriously, 90% votes for R. It doesn't matter that you got 9% of the remaining 10% it doesn't matter a damn bit.

Oh Fuck off. My entire family are Democrats in the south and abortion right are extremely important to them.

 

[exmachina64]

Moving to a purple state would honestly be a powerful political move for you. Your voice would multiple times 100.

And in the meantime, Republicans would take over cities like Houston, San Antonio, Austin, etc.

 

[tbm24]

Democrats in the South don't consider abortion rights to be of any concern.

Yes, there's a difference between Southern Democrats and the rest of the country.

They don't show up, they don't care, they don't matter. Yes I said it. When there's enough of them to hit 40% vote in the state, sure, THEN I'll care.

Stop trying to win fucking Arksansas, Texas, and Mississippi. Start trying to win Wisconsin and Michigan. This isn't new ideas. This is looking at a goddamn map and knowing where to prioritize resources.

What difference does it matter how popular someone is in the South, when the whole fucking region is redwash. Like, seriously, 90% votes for R. It doesn't matter that you got 9% of the remaining 10% it doesn't matter a damn bit.

You got receipts for those claims of southern Democrats and what do and don't care for?

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

In my opinion, they shouldn't. And neither should solidly blue states.

In fact, I think we should only primary in purple and contested states. Because ultimately the rest are already decided. They're decided right now for 2020. They don't matter.

But that's if you want to take the angle of Victory means everything.

Apparently the Democrats don't care enough to want that.

This is the most undemocratic shit I have seen posted on this site. If this is what it means to be a progressive I want no part of it.

 

[googleplex]

In my opinion, they shouldn't. And neither should solidly blue states.

In fact, I think we should only primary in purple and contested states. Because ultimately the rest are already decided. They're decided right now for 2020. They don't matter.

But that's if you want to take the angle of Victory means everything.

Apparently the Democrats don't care enough to want that.

This kinda of diet racist bullshit is what get Bernie supporters painted with such a broad brush

This is the most undemocratic shit I have seen posted on this site. If this is what it means to be a progressive I want no part of it.

It's flat out racist too

 

[Flo_Evans]

For the record, I agree that "the public option" is implicitly federal. Saying you support states implementing public options on their own is meaningless. Of course you support that.

Healthcare should totally be a states rights issue! just like abortion and gay marriage.

Democrats. Democrats are pushing this BS.

 

[royalan]

'more specific' was pointing out that 'empowering states' is not really a public option, and that if your standards for 'backing the public option' are 'supporting the status quo', you've gone wrong somewhere.

But fine, okay, say I shifted the goalposts, cool. We've nevertheless reached the point where: Clinton did not support the federally-backed public option for the duration of the 2016 primary, until just before Sanders' concession. I hope we can agree on this, since you've not provided any evidence to the contrary. So moving from this point:

Was this a free pony? Yes or no?

You'd have to give me an example of her arguing against it.

For the record, if you follow my posts, one of my consistent criticisms even before the election was the Hillary needed to stand her ground and be more blatant in her progressive policies, so I'm not exactly disagreeing with what you're saying now.

But your initial assertion was incorrect.

 

[tbm24]

In my opinion, they shouldn't. And neither should solidly blue states.

In fact, I think we should only primary in purple and contested states. Because ultimately the rest are already decided. They're decided right now for 2020. They don't matter.

But that's if you want to take the angle of Victory means everything.

Apparently the Democrats don't care enough to want that.

You remind me of my brother in law who didn't vote. His excuse was NY always goes blue so he doesn't have to. It's impossible to get him to comprehend the reason he can not care is because he's standing on the backs of the rest of us who did vote. The least he could do is not spit on me while he's up there.

 

[pigeon]

Thank you. I appreciate your role as a goal-position arbiter.

I can't tell if this is mockery, but either way, that's what I do.

Don't be silly, he would of needed to run much earlier and with much more funding to have won that.

That's...my point? Bernie's not a virgin. He knows how political campaigns work. If he wanted to run for president for real, he could've started preparing in 2012. That's what Hillary Clinton did!

It's very weird to me that people seem to consistently argue that preparing for a political campaign in the future is somehow unfair, and that people who have not prepared and made no particular effort to position themselves for such a campaign should be treated as being on an equal footing with the people who did. There's definitely an element of privilege there!

If you want to understand this better, notice what Bernie is doing right now -- going to give speeches in Iowa and talking about healthcare at schools. Wonder what he's preparing for? Do you think he's being unfair in doing so?

 

[dynamitejim]

For the record, I agree that "the public option" is implicitly federal. Saying you support states implementing public options on their own is meaningless. Of course you support that.

Would you say the same for Single Payer? Are the state level Single Payer proposals meaningless as well?

I would think a Public Option for state level exchanges is something easier to implement?

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

Its laughable that people are pissing on her for writing a book when you have people calling for the wholesale disenfranchisement of a significant portion of the electorate. Is this what it means to be progressive?

 

[RedZaraki]

This kinda of diet racist bullshit is what get Bernie supporters painted with such a broad brush



It's flat out racist too

If you want to min/max winning the fucking presidency, I'm telling you how to do it. If Trump gets re-elected it's because people in purple states weren't swayed. That's it.

Solidly blue and red states DO NOT CHANGE. It's junk food. Red herrings. Going out of your way to please people that are already firmly against or for you. You don't gain on the opposition doing that.

 

[TarNaru33]

Because a Primary is largely about the members of a political party choosing who they want to represent that party. A Democrat in Mississippi is just as much a Democrat as one in New York.

Lol... no.

 

[exmachina64]

In my opinion, they shouldn't. And neither should solidly blue states.

In fact, I think we should only primary in purple and contested states. Because ultimately the rest are already decided. They're decided right now for 2020. They don't matter.

But that's if you want to take the angle of Victory means everything.

Apparently the Democrats don't care enough to want that.

If only purple states selected the Democratic nominee for president, you would get fewer progressive candidates as viable nominees.

 

[Fenderputty]

Ten months later and HillaryGAF is still in denial, holy shit. Your candidate sucked, her campaign was ineffective and at times cringe-worthy. If you can't hold that L how the hell do you intend to take your country back in 2020?

Ten months later and the Berniecrat is still in denial, wow o holy shit. Your candidate sucked so bad, his campaign lost to a campiagn that was ineffective and at times cringeworthy. If you can't hold that L, how do you intend to take back the country in 2020?


This thread is a blast. Like for real. I'm so over the far left. I've almost hit a point where I just DGAF anymore

 

[AbsolutBro]

This kinda of diet racist bullshit is what get Bernie supporters painted with such a broad brush



It's flat out racist too

I'm not understanding what part involves race?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

You'd have to give me an example of her arguing against it.

For the record, if you follow my posts, one of my consistent criticisms even before the election was the Hillary needed to stand her ground and be more blatant in her progressive policies, so I'm not exactly disagreeing with what you're saying now.

But your initial assertion was incorrect.

This was my initial assertion.

I'm as happy to talk about what Clinton did in the '90s as the next person, but in the 2016 primary, Clinton refused to back the public option, and Sanders had to drag out his campaign to the bitter end to get her to incorporate it into her presidential platform. Is the public option an unattainable pony?

This statements remains correct. She refused to back the public option in the 2016 primary; we know this if she had not refused, we would have evidence of her backing the public option in the 2016 primary.

So, again...

Was the public option a free pony?

 

[Matt]

If you want to min/max winning the fucking presidency, I'm telling you how to do it. If Trump gets re-elected it's because people in purple states weren't swayed. That's it.

Solidly blue and red states DO NOT CHANGE. It's junk food. Red herrings. Going out of your way to please people that are already firmly against or for you. You don't gain on the opposition doing that.

Under this logic, what's the point of even having elections in those states?

 

[KHarvey16]

In my opinion, they shouldn't. And neither should solidly blue states.

In fact, I think we should only primary in purple and contested states. Because ultimately the rest are already decided. They're decided right now for 2020. They don't matter.

But that's if you want to take the angle of Victory means everything.

Apparently the Democrats don't care enough to want that.

Do you know who would be the candidate if this were used in 2016?

Hint: not Bernie Sanders.

 

[kirblar]

Healthcare should totally be a states rights issue! just like abortion and gay marriage.

Democrats. Democrats are pushing this BS.

Because we did not have control of congress and did not expect to have it! Therefore, we have to look for alternatives that fit within the framework of either existing law or executive branch jurisdiction.

This is why Clinton's initial policy proposal in '08 (where we had full control of both chambers) was all-in on the public option, while her initial proposal in '16 was deliberately limited.

Those of you not around for the '09 ACA debates (DEATH PANELS) may not understand just why Clinton would want to avoid talking about her actual "perfect world" policy views on this issue, but it's very understandable to those of us who do! The law didn't actually get majority popularity until Trump and the GOP tried to remove it!

 

[kcp12304]

Democrats in the South don't consider abortion rights to be of any concern.

Yes, there's a difference between Southern Democrats and the rest of the country.

They don't show up, they don't care, they don't matter. Yes I said it. When there's enough of them to hit 40% vote in the state, sure, THEN I'll care.

Stop trying to win fucking Arksansas, Texas, and Mississippi. Start trying to win Wisconsin and Michigan. This isn't new ideas. This is looking at a goddamn map and knowing where to prioritize resources.

What difference does it matter how popular someone is in the South, when the whole fucking region is redwash. Like, seriously, 90% votes for R. It doesn't matter that you got 9% of the remaining 10% it doesn't matter a damn bit.

Citation on the first part. Got any polls.

Southern Dems are just as Liberal as my Northern ass. Blue cities have millions of big standard Dems. Millions of them vote on Election Day. Of course they show up. You can't disenfranchise them from a primary process.

Think about you are saying. Bernie and his supporters argued that the DNC should be more Democratic with less super delegates. Now you want fellow Dems and Liberals to not have a say in the party they joined.

Dem candidates are MORE Liberal during a primary. They don't pander to the south. They moderate after the primary.

 

[tbm24]

If you want to min/max winning the fucking presidency, I'm telling you how to do it. If Trump gets re-elected it's because people in purple states weren't swayed. That's it.

Solidly blue and red states DO NOT CHANGE. It's junk food. Red herrings. Going out of your way to please people that are already firmly against or for you. You don't gain on the opposition doing that.

So you realize a president needs a constituency to govern and respresentives from all 50 states are their conduit to said constituency? If you wholesale ignore a greater part of the country, what do you think is gonna happen? They'll all bend the knee anyway?

 

[pigeon]

Would you say the same for Single Payer? Are the state level Single Payer proposals meaningless as well?

I would think a Public Option for state level exchanges is something easier to implement?

I don't think they're meaningless in terms of being useful reform. But they're meaningless as policy markers for national candidates. No Democrat is going to say they don't support California passing a single-payer bill for Californians. Why in God's name would they not support that?

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

If you are not competitive in purple states, I really don't give a fuck.

Clinton was competitive in swing states. No amount of campaigning or competitiveness would have countered the Russian fixing of the election.

 

[CazTGG]

Lesson learned, I live in Texas, its Red, I'm not voting anymore.

Demographic trends show that Texas could go purple in 2024. Also: Ted Cruz could lose his Senate seat in 2018 if early polls are to be believed.
Vote. Always vote. Sitting out isn't going to make things better for Dems/Independents in deep red state, especially on state referendum. Turning up and voting will help, slowly but surely, change things in southern states.

 

[RedZaraki]

If only purple states selected the Democratic nominee for president, you would get fewer progressive candidates as viable nominees.

That may be.

But at this point I would1000 times over take a president that was ONE PIXEL to the left of center over the alternative: A literal KKK member. Those are the options we face nowadays.

Clinton was competitive in swing states. No amount of campaigning or competitiveness would have countered the Russian fixing of the election.

That is also true. And by the way I voted for Hillary over Trump. But I had ZERO faith that she would actually win.

 

[TarNaru33]

This kinda of diet racist bullshit is what get Bernie supporters painted with such a broad brush



It's flat out racist too

Except its not, its realizing that those states with our current political system does not matter for U.S President. I disagree with him on not giving them a voice in the primaries, but lets not fool ourselves into thinking it truly matters.

 

[pigeon]

If you want to min/max winning the fucking presidency, I'm telling you how to do it. If Trump gets re-elected it's because people in purple states weren't swayed. That's it.

Solidly blue and red states DO NOT CHANGE. It's junk food. Red herrings. Going out of your way to please people that are already firmly against or for you. You don't gain on the opposition doing that.

Solidly blue states like Wisconsin.

 

[CornBurrito]

Are people posting that "America deserves a pony!" meme story saying that we can't afford universal healthcare? Like taxing the ultrarich isn't feasible?