DOOM the dating visual novel
Spoilers they're all tsundere
Yeah yeah, this is how it always starts. Innocently enough, and before you know it you're installing hdoom.
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
"If only you could talk to the monsters"
- Thread starter Vitor711
- Start date
Yeah yeah, this is how it always starts. Innocently enough, and before you know it you're installing hdoom.
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
Mr. Edge is still the bad writer with opinions that make me angry even 25 years later! Their review scores cannot go unpunished!
I didn't really like OG Doom when I played it but it had less to do with not understanding why I was murdering these demons from hell and more to do with the fact that I couldn't understand why I couldn't aim up and the fact that there didn't seem to be a lot of tactical options other than "Use gun" and "Use other gun"
in hindsight it was probably a mistake playing it after goldeneye
in hindsight it was probably a mistake playing it after goldeneye
From the article:
They kind of have a point. Doom is great -- I played a whole lot of it when I was 14 -- but Doom is also pretty darn dumb. And I'm not sure that the industry it shaped is exactly the best possible version of the industry. There's a direct line between Doom and the latest loud CoD installment. Maybe there's an alternate reality where people really figured out how to do Adventure games in a compelling way, and we didn't have to deal with the toxicity of an industry that almost exclusively targets 14 year old boys, or overgrown 14 year old boys, to the detriment of the medium as a whole.
But new Doom is coming out on Switch, and I'm tempted to buy it, so ...
They kind of have a point. Doom is great -- I played a whole lot of it when I was 14 -- but Doom is also pretty darn dumb. And I'm not sure that the industry it shaped is exactly the best possible version of the industry. There's a direct line between Doom and the latest loud CoD installment. Maybe there's an alternate reality where people really figured out how to do Adventure games in a compelling way, and we didn't have to deal with the toxicity of an industry that almost exclusively targets 14 year old boys, or overgrown 14 year old boys, to the detriment of the medium as a whole.
But new Doom is coming out on Switch, and I'm tempted to buy it, so ...
Shadow Hog
Member
What green lizards are they talking about, anyway? Doom's bestiary is varied, but it has a very distinct lack of green enemies, let alone lizards.
Well, unless you count the strangely-green hair of the basic Possessed Human, but they're still clearly not lizards (source: see their name).
Well, unless you count the strangely-green hair of the basic Possessed Human, but they're still clearly not lizards (source: see their name).
TheRedSnifit
Member
This is the most amazing quote, given that Doom is easily the most famous game of the era.
It's actually quite the opposite. The singleplayer shooter was sunk for almost a decade because shooters didn't (and often still don't) know when to shut the hell up. Shooters like Uncharted and Mass Effect have been huge successes and the industry as a whole has moved towards games where NPCs blather all the time. The article largely stands as an example of how you should be careful what you wish for.
Reptars Revenge
Member
Monsters just want a belly rub
SpinningBirdKick
Banned
It is real.
One of the many reasons why it amazes me that Edge is held in such regard.
One of the many reasons why it amazes me that Edge is held in such regard.
TheRedSnifit
Member
This is pretty much it: This was a time where the PC space was dominated by adventure-style games, and the guy was grumpy about the fact that action games were slowly starting to conquer his beloved "smart" gaming platform.
I wonder if he posts on RPG Codex.
Nintendo's Witch
Member
DOOM the dating visual novel
Spoilers they're all tsundere
How About No
SilverArrow20XX
Walks in the Light of the Crystal
You must face The Repercussions of Evil!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3LKadZ4LFU
Expertly animated narrated version.
I wouldn't blame Doom for any of these things you brought up. If it wasn't Doom, it would have been some other game, since the industry as a whole was pre-ordained to go down that path. First of all, the majority part of the industry that simply follows rather than innovates is always going to look for the easiest type of game template to base their products on. You see that phenomenom over and over when there's a groundbreaking smash hit and tons of completely uninspired derivatives following in its wake for a good number of years. Whether that be FPS, collectathon platformers, third person cover-based shooters, etc.
And with regards to the toxic juvenile power fantasy aspect of the industry, at the time the computer game market was very diverse catering to lots of wildly different demographics, and it continuted doing so for a number of years afterward. That started shifting not because of games like Doom, but because of the more overarching industry homogenization growing out of the console end of the spectrum and its business decisions being adopted as absolute truths, reaching its culmination with the advent of the Xbox 360.
DyslexicAlucard
Member
This post isn't getting nearly enough love.
GlitchyDegree
Banned
How About No
Member
Ouija Luigi
Member
Okay, that article is golden.
It's true that Doom is overly simplistic, run and gun, action, but the gaming world has a place for that. A rather large one, as history history has proven.
The article sounds a bit contrarian just for the sake of being one. I mean the author is pretty much deliberately giving a false fact, namely green lizards. Either that or he has some serious issues with recognizing shapes and colors.
Hah, I remember seeing this in newgrounds! Amazing animation.The cyberdemon with his whitey tighties is my favorite.
It's true that Doom is overly simplistic, run and gun, action, but the gaming world has a place for that. A rather large one, as history history has proven.The article sounds a bit contrarian just for the sake of being one. I mean the author is pretty much deliberately giving a false fact, namely green lizards. Either that or he has some serious issues with recognizing shapes and colors.
Hah, I remember seeing this in newgrounds! Amazing animation.The cyberdemon with his whitey tighties is my favorite.
anotherVegan
Member
I came here for jokes about spaghetti, temmie flakes, and DETERMINATION.
If I keep reading, I get the feeling I'm going to have a bad time.
XANDER CAGE
Member
That happens way more often than you might think. There are plenty of reviews for things like Star Wars, Rubber Soul, Kid A, etc etc that are wild to go back and read now.
Sega should have tried to get a SMT FPS going. From the Player point of view it'd feel much harder to negotiate if your finger is on the trigger pretty much all the time
Ha, what the fuck?
snow in jamaica
Member
Also true of many of the reviews of the original Alien. Many sci-fi film books of the time describe it as one big jump scare or "a haunted house picture in space" with more than a little derision.
IrishNinja
Member
crusader of centy is an underrated gem
Sir Ilpalazzo
Member
I'd say it's the opposite; the reason Doom became such a big hit is because it is actually a fairly complex and intricate action game. There's not really anything simplistic about it.
I don't know why people dogpile this quote or the article as much as they do - the guy has a point.
Considering Ultima Underworld came out the year before and PC games becoming far more sophisticated, something like Doom seems pretty quaint in comparison. In fact you could say the reason why it is as well remembered is because of its performance and presentation - and the focus on those has been a sticking point for games since - which put story, setting and set-pieces above mechanics.
I mean, it's why we have the "60fps or die" crowd, or games with beautiful graphics and systems as shallow as a paddling pool like the Order: 1886. Not to mention the continued love affair of Games as Films.
There is more to Doom though for sure. It's nearer to Geometry Wars than Call of Duty - and its arcade sensibility gives the game a kind of energy no one's captured since. Enemies, Weapons, Levels all have unique behavior - and my favourite thing about the 2016 game is that they brought that back in full force. Arena design was part platform and puzzle, and Romero has to be commended for making pretty memorable maps despite being such an early title.
But, compared to its contemporaries, it almost feels a bit puerile. I absolutely love its stripped back simplicity - though, I did play it after the fact, and during the 360 era. I'd say that's where it's maturity shows - not so much through its presentation, but definitely its mechanics.
edit:
But back on the quote. Rather than blowing it off and saying "whatever, pretentious loser" - you could say "well, what would a game like that be like?". I'm sure that could lead down interesting avenues, and unique and super cool games ideas. Undertale pretty much makes avoiding killing its USP - and stuff like Point and Click and Puzzles have had non-violence be a big component for years.
Considering Ultima Underworld came out the year before and PC games becoming far more sophisticated, something like Doom seems pretty quaint in comparison. In fact you could say the reason why it is as well remembered is because of its performance and presentation - and the focus on those has been a sticking point for games since - which put story, setting and set-pieces above mechanics.
I mean, it's why we have the "60fps or die" crowd, or games with beautiful graphics and systems as shallow as a paddling pool like the Order: 1886. Not to mention the continued love affair of Games as Films.
There is more to Doom though for sure. It's nearer to Geometry Wars than Call of Duty - and its arcade sensibility gives the game a kind of energy no one's captured since. Enemies, Weapons, Levels all have unique behavior - and my favourite thing about the 2016 game is that they brought that back in full force. Arena design was part platform and puzzle, and Romero has to be commended for making pretty memorable maps despite being such an early title.
But, compared to its contemporaries, it almost feels a bit puerile. I absolutely love its stripped back simplicity - though, I did play it after the fact, and during the 360 era. I'd say that's where it's maturity shows - not so much through its presentation, but definitely its mechanics.
edit:
But back on the quote. Rather than blowing it off and saying "whatever, pretentious loser" - you could say "well, what would a game like that be like?". I'm sure that could lead down interesting avenues, and unique and super cool games ideas. Undertale pretty much makes avoiding killing its USP - and stuff like Point and Click and Puzzles have had non-violence be a big component for years.
Ouija Luigi
Member
How so? I mean sure there's a lot going underneath the hood there, yes, but it all works to keep the gameplay rather minimalistic. The new Doom introduced a lot more to the core concept but the old one I'd say was very simple in terms of gameplay. I'm not taking the piss on Doom by the way, it's one of my favorite series after all.
nkarafo
Member
Doom wasn't supposed to be a new Ultima though. It's an action game. Ultima is an RPG. The reviewer pretty much complained because the game wasn't in the genre he prefers.
OG Doom wasn't only about killing monsters. It was also about solving the maps. There were some pretty awesome level designs to enjoy. Even after killing all the monsters there was the objective of how to open new areas and escape. Finding all the secrets in every map was also addictive enough because of how great the maps were. It's definitely more complex than modern on-rails CoD clones.Okay, that article is golden.
Scans of the original article are here: https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/historic/edge1994
Im not saying id be down with Cyber Demon butDOOM the dating visual novel
Spoilers they're all tsundere
Cyber Demon best boyfriend
No, there's something to be said with annoying the enemy to the point of bribing to be left alone.
Edit: I misunderstood the thread
Ouija Luigi
Member
You got a point there. I guess modern fps games are more about "scenes" than exploration and finding out things for yourself. "Press X to pay respects" and all that.
feint_ruled
Member
The point about Doom is that it burst the paradigm. It ushered in a whole new era of gameplay, of representing virtual spaces, of moving around in that 3D space and translating high speed arcade based gameplay into it. That's not even to get into its technical achievments. Now the fact they didn't see that is understandable, but this is Edge we are talking about who prided themselves at being commentators at the cutting edge of the artform. (The fact Wolfenstein 3D had primed the pump is even more to their detriment)
guybrushfreeman
Unconfirmed Member
Ive never seen that one before.
In context though it seems to be about the idea of a short FPS title vs. an extended RPG title so theres nothing particularly notable about it. That particular discussion (game length and value) certainly still comes up even today.
I do like the idea of showing the author Undertale all these years later though
In context though it seems to be about the idea of a short FPS title vs. an extended RPG title so theres nothing particularly notable about it. That particular discussion (game length and value) certainly still comes up even today.
I do like the idea of showing the author Undertale all these years later though
They aren't though. They'd have had a point if we'd had nothing but fps games for years, but Doom is the first major one. So it's not like fatigue had even set in. Their comment was pretentious.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
I love this, this is SMT demon conversations distilled to thier purest essence.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
I say it deserves to get blown off as it's wishing a game was aimed completely different from what it was (ie, that lean 'n mean arcade shootin' and level design excellence you rightly pointed out). It's barely above FIGHT AND HEAL or Football Manager 2009 = 2/10 on the "I want the game to be something completely different" scale.
Keep in mind that Mass Effect didn't come out until a decade and a half after Doom. I remember Doom basically set my young brain's expectations for what games were, and what they could be. When Quake came out, it made a lot of sense: more ultraviolence, with fancier graphics. Half Life 2 was the first fps that I was aware of to add a slow, plot heavy sequence at the beginning of the game. But it was still basically a "shoot everything that moves until it is dead" game for the most part, using the talkier sequences more as a pacing device than anything else.
What I'm saying is that if Doom hadn't been so influential, if the shareware game that was on more computers than Windows 95 (or whatever the stat was) had been a mystery-driven adventure game, perhaps the industry might be different. Of course, it's not just Doom's fault -- there are a lot of trends that made the games industry what it was. But I don't think that there's anything wrong with an article that actually showed some foresight about what Doom was going to bring to the industry, and wasn't super happy about it.
Of course, there's also a lot to appreciate in Doom, and I'm perhaps being a little bit unfair to compare it to CoD -- the latter is much less interesting, from a gameplay perspective. And adding talkie bits to the Doom framework doesn't produce great results. It just would have been interesting to see an industry that started from a different base, and went in a different direction from there.
TheRedSnifit
Member
Maybe not, but Star Control II (where you had to engage in interstellar diplomacy amongst 25 alien races) came out a year earlier, as did Ultime Underworld, in which you do chat with and occasionally befriend various creatures (ditto with the sequel). Strife came out three years later and did in fact let you talk to the monsters, which gave us wonderful conversations like this:
Doom came out at a time where PC gaming was dominated by adventure games and RPGs. If Doom had been a mystery-driven adventure game, its impact would have been greatly diminished as it would have been most likely brushed off as "just another aloof PC game". The fact that it used such cutting-edge technology for such a bare-bones, action-packed game is what made it the killer app it ultimately became.
JasonUresti
Member
This review was poor at the time and even worse from a historical perspective.
That quote would like, in a review of Robotron 2084,asking why can't you build granaries to boost your population.
That quote would like, in a review of Robotron 2084,asking why can't you build granaries to boost your population.
¡HarlequinPanic!
Member
There are worse takes in this very thread than from that review.
I guess history repeats itself.
I guess history repeats itself.
Sir Ilpalazzo
Member
How so? I mean sure there's a lot going underneath the hood there, yes, but it all works to keep the gameplay rather minimalistic. The new Doom introduced a lot more to the core concept but the old one I'd say was very simple in terms of gameplay. I'm not taking the piss on Doom by the way, it's one of my favorite series after all.
That "under the hood" stuff is what I'm talking about. The precise workings of each individual weapon and how the game's carefully-balanced lineup of guns influence how you approach each encounter, the unique behaviors and abilities of each enemy type (even down to how they react to damage), the interplay between various enemies (affecting how you approach them) combined with their placement within levels, and of course the level layouts themselves - none of this is actually simple, and all of it is central to what makes Doom good (even if most people who like Doom, even back in the day, might just say "I like it because it's fun to shoot monsters in it" - when all that complicated stuff is why it's fun to shoot them).
I think your argument hinges on the point that action games are somehow less intelligent or complicated than strategy games or certain types of adventure games. It's difficult to argue that Doom is "puerile" unless you're judging its content based on, like, the goofy 90s metal album art.
Some Nobody
Junior Member
I wonder how they did reviews back then. I always say if you give someone a genre they don't like and tell them "write about this game" you'll get a more cynical review and it won't appreciate some of the things that would be selling points to someone who's a fan.