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[Forward]

Japan should really stop sexualising children.

It is not even the majority of Japan - it is a niche of the fringe outside of normal society.

Which makes it even more infuriating that the majority hasn't curb-stomped this dumpster-fire tier garbage out of existence. And makes Level-5 even more reprehensible for catering to a sick niche that most of Japan cannot abide, yet inexplicably avoids eliminating.

 

[Wagram]

The designs themselves don't bother me, but is the clothing damage necessary?

 

[veloxStrix]

Japan should really stop sexualising children.

Japan has a different culture. The reasons the otaku community - in before someone tells me about the majority of Japan, I'm aware - finds themselves drawn to cutesy, young girls is different than the reasons people in the West would be and there are numerous case studies from both governmental and academic sources in Japan to corroborate this.

Does that change whether it is "good" or "bad"? No clue. But I think it is important to keep the context of things in mind.

 

[jtb]

Japan has a different culture. The reasons the otaku community - in before someone tells me about the majority of Japan, I'm aware - finds themselves drawn to cutesy, young girls is different than the reasons people in the West would be and there are numerous case studies from both governmental and academic sources in Japan to corroborate this.

Does that change whether it is "good" or "bad"? No clue. But I think it is important to keep the context of things in mind.

Why?

 

[TheGameshark]

Thought it was a generic anime game at first then scrolled down to the second image. lol what the fuck? It seems too ridiculous to be real.

 

[Delusibeta]

The designs themselves don't bother me, but is the clothing damage necessary?

I thought DMM Games would have been a big enough clue. I would not be surprised if this turned out to literally be a reskinned Kancolle, and that the sum total of Level 5's involvement is signing the licensing agreement.

 

[HawthorneKitty]

I thought DMM Games would have been a big enough clue. I would not be surprised if this turned out to literally be a reskinned Kancolle, and that the sum total of Level 5's involvement is signing the licensing agreement.

You expect people to know DMM?

 

[7Th]

This is honestly just a dime-a-dozen mobage that's honestly kinda tame compared to what they get away with in behemoth FGO.

 

[veloxStrix]

Why?

Because it creates the same stereotypes about people and races that have plagued the game industry for the last twenty years. "Japanese people are so weird" seems a lot more acceptable to most people than "Black people are so weird" and part of that comes from the lack of understanding of the culture of the majority Japan that feeds and creates these smaller subcultures looking to escape from that.

What the vast majority of Western cultures see as sexualization and, by extension, a desire to have sex with children is more of a self-aware escapism. A desire to have a relationship with something that is so far from reality that it can make these people feel comfortable in a society that glorifies the male salaryman working 12+ hour shifts daily and the housewife raising the kids at home. Japanese culture shifts over the last decade have been defined by an attempt to escape this forced role - the shut-in, the single working woman, idol culture, etc - and the idea that the media of Japan would shift as well to cater to this sort of escapism seems logical. Most of the people who partake in this media are aware that a real-life relationship with kids or idols or what have you is unrealistic. Most of them wouldn't want it regardless. It is a means to glorify youth and relive the most common good time that most Japanese people remember - their own youths before they had societal expectations put on them.

But then a bunch of dudes on the internet sit around their monitor and try to point out issues in a culture that they only understand from the vidya gamez and anime they import and the whole complex issue gets summed up to, "Japanese people need to stop sexualizing kids." Which is really par for the course considering most contentious issues in the West have been being dumbed down to the point of irrelevance since the 90s. Then people start wondering why the obvious morally correct issues in politics aren't winning people over.

 

[Maxinas]

Because it creates the same stereotypes about people and races that have plagued the game industry for the last twenty years. "Japanese people are so weird" seems a lot more acceptable to most people than "Black people are so weird" and part of that comes from the lack of understanding of the culture of the majority Japan that feeds and creates these smaller subcultures looking to escape from that.

What the vast majority of Western cultures see as sexualization and, by extension, a desire to have sex with children is more of a self-aware escapism. A desire to have a relationship with something that is so far from reality that it can make these people feel comfortable in a society that glorifies the male salaryman working 12+ hour shifts daily and the housewife raising the kids at home. Japanese culture shifts over the last decade have been defined by an attempt to escape this forced role - the shut-in, the single working woman, idol culture, etc - and the idea that the media of Japan would shift as well to cater to this sort of escapism seems logical. Most of the people who partake in this media are aware that a real-life relationship with kids or idols or what have you is unrealistic. Most of them wouldn't want it regardless. It is a means to glorify youth and relive the most common good time that most Japanese people remember - their own youths before they had societal expectations put on them.

But then a bunch of dudes on the internet sit around their monitor and try to point out issues in a culture that they only understand from the vidya gamez and anime they import and the whole complex issue gets summed up to, "Japanese people need to stop sexualizing kids." Which is really par for the course considering most contentious issues in the West have been being dumbed down to the point of irrelevance since the 90s. Then people start wondering why the obvious morally correct issues in politics aren't winning people over.

Good post, but don't waste your time with these people.

 

[Falk]

Why?

I'm not trying to start the 'but what about violence1@#' train of debate yet again since that has been refuted countless times, but if I may float an example close to home to many, if we're going to discuss an issue like gun crimes, militarization of police hardware etc., we probably need to take into context any given specific country's gun laws/regulations (e.g. in US vs elsewhere) and general public preconceptions on the issue.

Some people are completely fine with guns being in every household with proper regulation/checks/etc. Other people from other countries find the thought extremely disturbing.

Hence, context.

(And no, I for one think that the rise of moe culture in Japan has ruined a lot of good things, from games, to anime, to Akihabara)

This is honestly just a dime-a-dozen mobage that's honestly kinda tame compared to what they get away with in behemoth FGO.

Speaking of context, the context here really isn't about how it stacks up against what's out there, and a lot more about how it originally was a pretty well-known franchise targeted at children.

Fate as a franchise, for example, really did start off as an adult VN about a dozen years ago.

 

[RM8]

"Japan has a different culture" is such a weak non-argument. You could say that about any prevalent issue in any country. Some of the people saying "please understand" should try to read about how REAL underage girls are constantly harassed and molested in Japan as a result of this culture that sexualizes minors.

 

[Falk]

Pretty much, yes. Look up recent (like, this year and literally in the last few months) issues/trends/regulation regarding the whole JK phenomenon and it's pretty clear that the line between the 'pure moe idol' concept and actual sex crimes gets crossed far too often.

It doesn't quite help when the media actively encourages this.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

"Japan has a different culture" is such a weak non-argument. You could say that about any prevalent issue in any country. Some of the people saying "please understand" should try to read about how REAL underage girls are constantly harassed and molested in Japan as a result of this culture that sexualizes minors.

Nah, this doesn't happen in Japan, you silly American.

Spoiler

Sorry, I can't resist the urge to bring up that embarrassing dumpster fire of a thread yet again

 

[RM8]

Nah, this doesn't happen in Japan, you silly American.

Spoiler

Sorry, I can't resist the urge to bring up that embarrassing dumpster fire of a thread yet again

I've heard horrible crap from my female Japanese friends here in Tokyo. One of my friends had her uniform ejaculated on, on the train. Different culture! Please understand (unless you're an actual Japanese schoolgirl, in which case tough luck).

One of my Japanese/Mexican cousins came to study to Tokyo last year. Before coming, her father (Japanese, has been living in Mexico for over 30 years) had a serious talk with her about how she should be extra careful on the train because of this stuff. How on earth can people pretend this being a problem in Japan, and Japan producing media that very strongly sexualizes minors is not related at all? It's incredible.

 

[Evilkazzzz]

Damn Level 5.

Are you really bleeding money like that?

The market for anime girls with clothes damage on mobile must be huge (or maybe they attract cash whales).

 

[Infinite_Daremo]

Because it creates the same stereotypes about people and races that have plagued the game industry for the last twenty years. "Japanese people are so weird" seems a lot more acceptable to most people than "Black people are so weird" and part of that comes from the lack of understanding of the culture of the majority Japan that feeds and creates these smaller subcultures looking to escape from that.

What the vast majority of Western cultures see as sexualization and, by extension, a desire to have sex with children is more of a self-aware escapism. A desire to have a relationship with something that is so far from reality that it can make these people feel comfortable in a society that glorifies the male salaryman working 12+ hour shifts daily and the housewife raising the kids at home. Japanese culture shifts over the last decade have been defined by an attempt to escape this forced role - the shut-in, the single working woman, idol culture, etc - and the idea that the media of Japan would shift as well to cater to this sort of escapism seems logical. Most of the people who partake in this media are aware that a real-life relationship with kids or idols or what have you is unrealistic. Most of them wouldn't want it regardless. It is a means to glorify youth and relive the most common good time that most Japanese people remember - their own youths before they had societal expectations put on them.

But then a bunch of dudes on the internet sit around their monitor and try to point out issues in a culture that they only understand from the vidya gamez and anime they import and the whole complex issue gets summed up to, "Japanese people need to stop sexualizing kids." Which is really par for the course considering most contentious issues in the West have been being dumbed down to the point of irrelevance since the 90s. Then people start wondering why the obvious morally correct issues in politics aren't winning people over.

Really good post. I’ve always been in the camp of this art style is some creepy pedo shit and I can’t unsee that. But it’s still interesting to see the perspective of someone from Japan explaining this niche instead of some smug western douche painting all of Japan with this brush.

I watched some documentary recently about the culture which pretty much pointed to Japanese youths not wanting to full grow up because the thought of the working streretype was the most depressing thing in the world and so they avoided contact with anything adult, including women.

I still think it’s creepy but I’ll be less judgemental of the people who are into this stuff.

What about those creepy neckbeards who import this stuff though? It can’t be cultural then.

 

[Foxy the Fox]

By the end of the day the Japanese will decide if this step has been productive or not.

How does the last Medabot game sold in Japan?

Why?

Put more effort in your baits.

 

[Falk]

What about those creepy neckbeards who import this stuff though? It can't be cultural then.

It's not just creepy neckbeards overseas.

I think it's important to separate discussion about the perception and source of this entire phenomenon, both at a public and legistlative level to better understand why the wider Japanese culture at large doesn't stamp it out of existence, from discussion about the results not the least significant of which is enabling/normalizing a lot of gross behavior even within Japan, and especially centered around Tokyo and Osaka for whatever reason.

 

[Infinite_Daremo]

It's not just creepy neckbeards overseas.

I think it's important to separate discussion about the perception and source of this entire phenomenon, both at a public and legistlative level to better understand why the wider Japanese culture at large doesn't stamp it out of existence, from discussion about the results not the least significant of which is enabling/normalizing a lot of gross behavior even within Japan, and especially centered around Tokyo and Osaka for whatever reason.

It’s not something I could comment on. I’ve never been to Japan, I don’t know it’s laws or culture so why it seems to be such an overly accepted art style or how it ever spawned is beyond something I could understand growing up in England.

The post I quoted however does highlight a potential source. The lack of will to grow up. I doubt the entirety of Japan has Peter Pan syndrome though. But at a government level how it hasn’t been curb stomped.... I have no idea.

 

[takriel]

Nah, this doesn't happen in Japan, you silly American.

Spoiler

Sorry, I can't resist the urge to bring up that embarrassing dumpster fire of a thread yet again

Wow that thread is really embarrassing.

It's fine to mention the difference between cultures, but it's also very important to look at the real-life consequences this lolicon culture has on underage girls and Japan sex life, and mental escapism as a whole.

It's not okay to be a lolicon apologist and just mentioning the difference between cultures.

 

[massoluk]

Not like this Level 5, not like this

 

[Ascheroth]

I only know this franchise from the anime and the anime is totally awesome.
This shift is very disappointing :/

 

[DemWalls]

I've heard horrible crap from my female Japanese friends here in Tokyo. One of my friends had her uniform ejaculated on, on the train. Different culture! Please understand (unless you're an actual Japanese schoolgirl, in which case tough luck).

I'm honestly really surprised things like this actually happen. I thought this was just some kind of hentai trope because, apparently, having sex in a train choke full of people is like the hottest thing ever.

Do the people around really not notice anything?

 

[SapientWolf]

Not like this Level 5, not like this

I love that almost all the Japanese comments are also variations on "not like this."

It must be catering to a really small but profitable niche.

 

[Falk]

I'm honestly really surprised things like this actually happen. I thought this was just some kind of hentai trope because, apparently, having sex in a train choke full of people is like the hottest thing ever.

Do the people around really not notice anything?

Crowded trains.

It's a problem. So much so that a lot of train lines literally have women-only carriages before 9AM.

edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women-only_passenger_car#Japan

 

[King Gilga]

Such a weird country.

I remember once me an a friend were in one of those big anime stores in denden town turned a corner and saw a full fontal big ass poster of a naked little anime girl.

Decided to not go to anime stores after that.

Fix your shit japan.

 

[KirbYuuYuu]

I'm honestly really surprised things like this actually happen. I thought this was just some kind of hentai trope because, apparently, having sex in a train choke full of people is like the hottest thing ever.

Do the people around really not notice anything?

A lot of works are inspired by real life for a reason

 

[DemWalls]

Crowded trains.

It's a problem. So much so that a lot of train lines literally have women-only carriages before 9AM.

edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women-only_passenger_car#Japan

I know it's definitely a problem - I've had my fair share of not very pleasant experiences about crowded trains/buses - but exactly because there are so many people I find it hard to believe no one who's near (or even in contact if the train is particularly crowded) notices some guy jerking off. Especially since to "ejaculate on a uniform" he also must have his junk out. That's something a bit more... noticeable than 'simply' groping someone.

Maybe some people just prefer to mind their own business?

A lot of works are inspired by real life for a reason

Indeed, but they also tend to exaggerate it. Especially if we're talking about anime

 

[Laughing Banana]

Nah, this doesn't happen in Japan, you silly American.

Spoiler

Sorry, I can't resist the urge to bring up that embarrassing dumpster fire of a thread yet again

I think Japan is the only country in the world having a very specific porn subset of 'girls getting attacked in trains', also known by the term Chikan (though this is more of a 'shamed in public' but a VAST majority of porn of this subset involve women attacked in trains.)

I mean, the problem has been so rampant and the audience for it is large enough that there's even a porn subset for it, lol.

 

[MatrixMan.EXE]

Context in these situations matter, yes, but when sexual assault is such a big problem in Japan, simply saying that the market for media featuring sexualised underage girls is just a caveat of their culture only goes so far. The moment that media starts leading to real world issues such as those stated, context's place in this discussion is diminished significantly.

I'm not going to generalise Japan. I speak the language, I love going there and the people are great, but this game announcement is endemic of a wider issue that absolutely should be called out. What's worse is that the people in the country who have the power to make change are doing little to nothing to address this. That is the problem, regardless of why this type of media exists in the first place.

 

[FStubbs]

In a way, the old audience of the series has grown up so maybe they want to recapture then.

It will bomb miserably anyway lol.

So you find a way to do LBX with older characters. Actual LBX and not this.

Eh, it'll fail. Maybe then Level-5 will look at putting normal handheld games on the Switch.

 

[squall23]

So you find a way to do LBX with older characters. Actual LBX and not this.

Eh, it'll fail. Maybe then Level-5 will look at putting normal handheld games on the Switch.

They've already shown screenshots and prototype footage of the new Inazuma Eleven on a "higher quality game machine" than a 3DS.

 

[mikezilla2]

Give up. The Dark Cloud franchise was funded by Sony, which co-own and manage the IP. It doesn't seem Sony has an interest in bringing back a 13 years old franchise that didn't sell too well to begin with.

they renewed the domain and brought back all the PS2 level 5 titles so to speak ........

 

[fortunato]

they renewed the domain and brought back all the PS2 level 5 titles so to speak ........

...which doesn't imply there exists a willingness to fund a new entry in the franchise.

 

[L Thammy]

I also like how women/girls getting their clothes forcibly removed being an escapist fantasy is the defense. It sounds a little like try to make arguments for white-only fantasy games that similarly end up seeming more incriminating.

 

[Sakura]

I'm honestly really surprised things like this actually happen. I thought this was just some kind of hentai trope because, apparently, having sex in a train choke full of people is like the hottest thing ever.

Do the people around really not notice anything?

The trains in Tokyo are fucking ridiculous at times. It's like, literally a can of sardines. You can't even move.

In any case I think the arguments that this sort of media causes these events or sexual related crimes is rather baseless.
For example the rate of rape in the USA was 37 per 100,000 people in 2014, while for Japan it was... 1.
Crime exists in Japan. Minors get sexually assaulted. Of course you will hear lots of stories. It's a country of over a hundred million people. But I don't believe there is any actual evidence suggesting that the media or culture there increases it/facilitates it/etc, and Japan in general has lower incidents of this sort of thing than in the west as far as I am aware.

 

[L Thammy]

The trains in Tokyo are fucking ridiculous at times. It's like, literally a can of sardines. You can't even move.

In any case I think the arguments that this sort of media causes these events or sexual related crimes is rather baseless.
For example the rate of rape in the USA was 37 per 100,000 people in 2014, while for Japan it was... 1.
Crime exists in Japan. Minors get sexually assaulted. Of course you will hear lots of stories. It's a country of over a hundred million people. But I don't believe there is any actual evidence suggesting that the media or culture there increases it/facilitates it/etc, and Japan in general has lower incidents of this sort of thing than in the west as far as I am aware.

I've read multiple articles stating that sex crimes in Japan are underreported and that police have little interest in pursuing them for fear of making themselves look bad with higher statistics. I don't know how reliable that comparison is.

 

[Sakura]

I've read multiple articles stating that sex crimes in Japan are underreported and that police have little interest in pursuing them for fear of making themselves look bad with higher statistics. I don't know how reliable that comparison is.

Sex crimes in every country are under reported. Do I really believe it is only 1 per 100,000? Of course not. But I don't believe it is over 37 either, nor is there any evidence that I am aware of that would suggest it is.

 

[Poor GRIMES]

Japan has a different culture. The reasons the otaku community - in before someone tells me about the majority of Japan, I'm aware - finds themselves drawn to cutesy, young girls is different than the reasons people in the West would be and there are numerous case studies from both governmental and academic sources in Japan to corroborate this.

Does that change whether it is "good" or "bad"? No clue. But I think it is important to keep the context of things in mind.

Context is useless in this discussion when the product remains the same

 

[plenilune]

Really good post. I’ve always been in the camp of this art style is some creepy pedo shit and I can’t unsee that. But it’s still interesting to see the perspective of someone from Japan explaining this niche instead of some smug western douche painting all of Japan with this brush.

I watched some documentary recently about the culture which pretty much pointed to Japanese youths not wanting to full grow up because the thought of the working streretype was the most depressing thing in the world and so they avoided contact with anything adult, including women.

I still think it’s creepy but I’ll be less judgemental of the people who are into this stuff.

What about those creepy neckbeards who import this stuff though? It can’t be cultural then.

I've also seen it explained that moe primarily serves as an outlet in a society where pressure for conformity and subordination is extremely high (I should know because I've lived here for 15+ years). The fact that moe characters are portrayed as children is no coincidence, because their apparent submissiveness is a key factor in this ego-boosting relationship. Sexual attraction is perhaps secondary, although I do not deny that it fosters acceptance of sexual child abuse.

 

[L Thammy]

Sex crimes in every country are under reported. Do I really believe it is only 1 per 100,000? Of course not. But I don't believe it is over 37 either, nor is there any evidence that I am aware of that would suggest it is.

So, you acknowledge that the statistical comparison you yourself posted isn't reliable, but still insist that it holds, are willing to look past how the complaint of unreported train groping and such is - even in this thread?

I've heard horrible crap from my female Japanese friends here in Tokyo. One of my friends had her uniform ejaculated on, on the train. Different culture! Please understand (unless you're an actual Japanese schoolgirl, in which case tough luck).

One of my Japanese/Mexican cousins came to study to Tokyo last year. Before coming, her father (Japanese, has been living in Mexico for over 30 years) had a serious talk with her about how she should be extra careful on the train because of this stuff. How on earth can people pretend this being a problem in Japan, and Japan producing media that very strongly sexualizes minors is not related at all? It's incredible.

 

[Jharp]

Oh good, another thread where a bunch of keyboard warriors hold Japan to American PC standards and Japan just goes "lol."

 

[Creamium]

Yeah I don't see the need to put this into 'context'. This is disgusting shit on every level.

 

[Sakura]

So, you acknowledge that the statistical comparison you yourself posted isn't reliable, but still insist that it holds, are willing to look past how the complaint of unreported train groping and such is - even in this thread?

I think any data is better than anecdotal evidence, yes.
Nor is there any data suggesting media increases rate of incidents. But carry on.

 

[Poor GRIMES]

Oh good, another thread where a bunch of keyboard warriors hold Japan to American PC standards and Japan just goes "lol."

Yeah because we're totally not discussing the very real impact that this has on Japanese women living in Japan

 

[Burbeting]

Oh good, another thread where a bunch of keyboard warriors hold Japan to American PC standards and Japan just goes "lol."

Oh good, another thread where where bunch of people are defending literal sexualisation of children.

 

[Poor GRIMES]

Oh good, another thread where where bunch of people are defending literal sexualisation of children.

Most of them aren't even Japanese. Like.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/item/57eaaf23-0cef-48c8-961f-41f2563b38aa

Lolicon being problematic is not a brand new idea

 

[encephalon]

I think any data is better than anecdotal evidence, yes.
Nor is there any data suggesting media increases rate of incidents. But carry on.

Japanese people on mainstream websites like niconico douga freely admit to being and identify themselves as pedophiles. It's not taken seriously. It's been normalized in certain parts of society.

But why? Surely not the ubiquity of this kind of media.

 

[Dinjoralo]

I need to know if that thread title is a mod edit. Please.