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From PCGamesN:

”We can tell with most of our games which modes players are spending time in," says Harada. ”We have that data in our company. You hear a lot of people say this game is great because it has a tutorial but when we look at the data, not many people play these tutorial modes. This is the same when you buy something new, you take it home and you don't read the manual. It's a positive for your product if you can say you have a tutorial but when you take a closer look you notice that people aren't really playing it.”

That's not to say Tekken has given up entirely on easing players into the game. Harada tells us that Tekken 7's ”story mode was envisioned on teaching the player with baby steps whilst playing the game." This direction came out of Tekken Tag Tournament 2's fight lab mode, where players learned the game while playing.

”As you're playing through the story mode," says Harada, ”you naturally learn things like, ‘oh, this can be side stepped' or ‘this character has this powerful special move if I learn how to use it properly.' In the story mode, you can perform these with a simplified command so once you know about it, you can practice to perform this with the normal command."

Sounds extremely weird to me, when TTT's fight lab was actually decent, there's some fantastic tutorials around (DOA, GG, Skullgirls, KI...) and even SFV has the most basic tutorial possible.
There has been no effort on this side for T7, there's absolutely nothing. Even their mediocre tutorial videos are on youtube and not in the game.
On top of that, the trophy/achievement stats for fighting games with tutorials usually show around 50% (or more) of players do it. It's not to say that a good tutorial makes your game a success or not (not when T7 sells 2M copies), but it allows you to enlarge your fanbase.
Would it have been so difficult to do something basic? I know that the single player is barebones, but Tekken is really an outlier for that total lack of tutorial...

 

[Grim Patron]

Nice try. Games like Guilty Gear Xrd Revelator have both a great story mode and a fantastic tutorial (best in fighting games imo) while Tekken 7 has a story mode that's worse than no story mode.

 

[Astral]

Lol sure. Story Mode taught me absolutely nothing. If it wasn’t for Aris, I wouldn’t know shit.

 

[Professor Beef]

Using trophy data to determine tutorial use is stupid because people do them for easy trophies, not because they're engaged in the tutorial. There's no way to determine how much they're using it, or how long.

I would trust Harada's numbers over anything else.

 

[Crankshaft]

Story mode taught me nothing. Except how to skip the boring narator.

 

[SinCityAssassin]

I mean. A tutorial still would've been nice to have.

 

[Pompadour]

Xrd has a great tutorial but players don't want to do homework to play a game.

Ideally, fighting games would teach players how to play like Mario and Zelda games do: intuitively. The game shouldn't make it obvious you're going through a tutorial.

Of course, I have absolutely no idea how to do that for fighting games.

 

[Shin K Dash]

Seriously. This is not the explanation I wanted to hear from them about this...

 

[TheSpoiler]

James Chen explained that people don't really engage in a tutorial in a meaningful manner. Like, fighting games have so much shit that even when you learn one thing, there's five other things that come about from that. GG's tutorial, for as good as it was, still doesn't provide enough context to things because fighting games just have so much going on. So a tutorial in a basic manner isn't really helpful for teaching players in full.

HOWEVER, and this is very important, what it does is show players that there are methods to the madness that is fighting games and ease them into sticking around and quite possibly seeking out better materials. SFV's tutorials and demostrations aren't necessarily good, but because people can sniff some shit out from them (and are lead their by the promise of free FM), you get something out of watching the basic nature of each move and so on. Fighting game tutorials aren't really good at doing long term learning, but even having something puts people on a path which can be the determiner for someone dropping the game or sticking with it.

Even a quick database in-game would be sufficient. While fighitng games need to really figure out how to keep people learning, they still need to have some sort of substance so people don't get frustrated on first step.

Xrd has a great tutorial but players don't want to do homework to play a game.

Ideally, fighting games would teach players how to play like Mario and Zelda games do: intuitively. The game shouldn't make it obvious you're going through a tutorial.

Of course, I have absolutely no idea how to do that for fighting games.

You ain't wrong. They are still video games and still need to be fun. Labbing it up isn't exactly enjoyable for everyone and fighting games can't expect people to enjoy that process of learning when other games hide their tutorials so well.

 

[HeelPower]

Nah,they're just reliant on community tutorials on youtube.

Its a baffling omission.

I have no idea when they're gonna actually make a tutorial mode in earnest.Its been 20 years and there seems to be sign of that ever happening.

They'll never add frame data either.They're just dont give a fuck.

 

[Human Trashcan]

Lol sure. Story Mode taught me absolutely nothing. If it wasn’t for Aris, I wouldn’t know shit.

Pretty much same. It's really ridiculous how the game doesn't explain ANY of its concepts at all. At least practice mode has tons of good options, but in terms of teaching people how to actually play, there's absolutely nothing.

 

[PantsuJo]

I would like to know a different thing:

Why don't we have Idolm@ster costumes as DLC?

 

[mas8705]

The only game out there that I can think of that did tutorials well was Xrd and possibly KI. Not only did you get to enjoy a fun alternate by doing minigames that taught you how to fight, but it wasn't just a "Stand in" getting whaled on. KI also did a good job in teaching the game mechanics by offering a variety of lessons to help players learn the basics too.

Only other game that can come to mind that would be a stretch would probably be MvC:I, but that's a stretch in itself. At least I felt like I could do more of the trails than in MvC3 since there was an actual "How to play" part before doing the more technicial stuff. For Tekken 7 though... They should have just brought back Combot. At least there was some fun to be had with it during the Fight Lab mode (and that was a pretty fair tutorial too).

 

[Phu]

Xrd has a great tutorial but players don't want to do homework to play a game.

Ideally, fighting games would teach players how to play like Mario and Zelda games do: intuitively. The game shouldn't make it obvious you're going through a tutorial.

Of course, I have absolutely no idea how to do that for fighting games.

That's a good way to put it. Fighting games still have a problem where learning how to play feels like homework.

 

[Tyrant Rave]

I would like to know a different thing:

Why don't we have Idolm@ster costumes as DLC?

we do

 

[Professor Beef]

Nah,they're just reliant on community tutorials on youtube.

Its a baffling omission.

I have no idea when they're gonna actually make a tutorial mode in earnest.Its been 20 years and there seems to be sign of that ever happening.

They'll never add frame data either.They're just dont give a fuck.

In the case of frame data, it's more like the majority of *people* don't give a fuck.

 

[NipplesAndToes23]

I mean we survived without tutorials since the 90s. They don't need to explain shit.

 

[Zafir]

Story mode sure did a poor job teaching people considering that....

It doesn't teach you much at all, especially if you selected the higher difficulties. It teaches you how to abuse AI's I guess? That's what I learned from it, lol.

I learned everything from outside sources, like move lists/frame data, and videos from people like Aris.

 

[MoogleMan]

James Chen explained that people don't really engage in a tutorial in a meaningful manner.

I believe this. I'm usually good with a move list and training mode.

 

[Zombegoast]

It didn't help my Asuka.

 

[TheTylerRob]

He's bullshitting but seriously a tutorial isn't going to make you good at fighting games. YouTube and training mode exist.

 

[Shin K Dash]

Xrd has a great tutorial but players don't want to do homework to play a game.

Ideally, fighting games would teach players how to play like Mario and Zelda games do: intuitively. The game shouldn't make it obvious you're going through a tutorial.

Of course, I have absolutely no idea how to do that for fighting games.

Many have suggested story mode should do this. One good example is to drip feed character moves and/or mechanics similar to dungeon fighter, then have bosses being a test for that mechanic. But it seems they are more interested in a mind numbing story with no real personal challenge. They never cared about implementing learning mechanics in tekken and have barely tried in the pas. especially when you looks at how the perfect example Virtua fighter 4 evo which is a almost 20 year old 3d fighter, its downright embarrassing. Seems they are just relying on YT vids to do the work they never wanted to do in the past. Which is why this game unfortunately won't grow much in player base.

 

[RecRoulette]

You mean the story mod where you can do one button moves to avoid learning different characters? Okay then.

 

[Professor Beef]

VF4's tutorial is the perfect "if a tree falls in the forest" example for fighters.

 

[Shin K Dash]

You mean the story mod where you can do one button moves to avoid learning different characters? Okay then.

I find that the most comical part of this interview. Apparently baby steps means allowing the player to mash one button, which I would be fine with except for the fact that it's not a mechanic that is available outside that mode...

 

[lucebuce12]

He's bullshitting but seriously a tutorial isn't going to make you good at fighting games. YouTube and training mode exist.

I didn't expect a tutorial mode to make me good at Tekken, I expected it to teach me how the high/mid/lows work in the game, how throws work, how you can break them, how to utilize sidestep.

Those are the absolute basics that the training mode SHOULD teach you. Even Dead or Alive 5, the "titty fighter", has a VERY in depth tutorial that teaches you the ins and outs of the game's systems.

Instead, the story mode taught me how to Dorya by pressing two buttons.

 

[Pompadour]

Honestly, SFV's tutorial that you play automatically the first time the game is launched was a good start. Having the story mode start with Ryu and Ken's training would have worked if that tutorial was 100x more in-depth.

Have Gouken chuck fireballs off screen that Ryu has to navigate around without explicitly saying "press up forward to jump over the fireball!"

 

[PantsuJo]

we do

Japanese PSN?

 

[HeelPower]

In the case of frame data, it's more like the majority of *people* don't give a fuck.

I mean,a key aspect of learning how to play the game is learning about frame data.

If you care about learning the game, you should care about there being frame data.

 

[cordy]

Xrd has a great tutorial but players don't want to do homework to play a game.

Ideally, fighting games would teach players how to play like Mario and Zelda games do: intuitively. The game shouldn't make it obvious you're going through a tutorial.

Of course, I have absolutely no idea how to do that for fighting games.

That's actually the most memorable part of that game beside it's graphics IMO.

 

[BHK3]

Tekken 7 was honestly terrible all around and I don't know how the game avoided any sort of blowback while SFV was dragged endlessly through the mud. Guess having a 1 hour story mode where you can press a button and have a character do a whole auto combo makes up for no tutorial or literally any other mode in the game other than online. Harada why can't I press back and kick to do a 5 hit combo online wtf broken game.

Crazy how the ps1 tekken 3 had tekken force mode and we don't have that anymore...

 

[MrCarter]

Harada talking shit again lol. He really needs to stop insulting his audiences intelligence with half the crap he says.

 

[Zekes!]

Yeah I dropped Tekken 7 quick after beating story mode because there's nothing in-game to help me get better at understanding how to play it. Even Street Fighter V has trials and character explanations (even if they're not the greatest). I would've traded story mode and the customization shit in Tekken for more robust training/tutorial modes.

 

[Dereck]

Nice try.

Bad try really

 

[ShinMaruku]

The man should have just said he thinks tutororial is waste of their efforts. That would have been fine I don't think any developer has gotten training mode right to actually teach the game.

 

[Kayo Police]

If it wasnt for Teach me Aris senpai streams, I wouldnt know a damn thing.

 

[7DollarHagane]

Well it's Tekken so it's immune to criticism.

Only Capcom games get dozens of negative headlines and threads, that's the rules

 

[jett]

Tekken 7 was honestly terrible all around and I don't know how the game avoided any sort of blowback while SFV was dragged endlessly through the mud. Guess having a 1 hour story mode where you can press a button and have a character do a whole auto combo makes up for no tutorial or literally any other mode in the game other than online. Harada why can't I press back and kick to do a 5 hit combo online wtf broken game.

I was quite surprised when I learned online mode was utterly broken on PS4 for several weeks. Where was the outrage.

 

[kitzkozan]

That's a good way to put it. Fighting games still have a problem where learning how to play feels like homework.

Is there really any choice given how much you need to invest to not get wreck? Footsies, negative edge, meaties, frame traps, block strings, okizeme, etc.

 

[WarRock]

I prefer to believe in the Shao-Lon-Con.

 

[Inuhanyou]

i dont give a crap about tutorials honestly speaking. I learned how to play tekken by playing it a lot over and over and learning combos and things on my own.

The reliance on "frame data" and junk like that(those weird terms i have no idea what they are) is for people who only care about tournament play, but Tekken has never been street fighter in that regard. The exclusive focus on high level players and technical malarkey has never been there.

 

[Professor Beef]

I mean,a key aspect of learning how to play the game is learning about frame data.

If you care about learning the game, you should care about there being frame data.

Ok. That still doesn't change the fact that a majority of people don't give a shit about frame data. You have to give them a reason to care beyond "it's important, ok?" People who care about frame data are a minority.

The man should have just said he thinks tutororial is waste of their efforts. That would have been fine I don't think any developer has gotten training mode right to actually teach the game.

Read the OP:

“We have that data in our company. You hear a lot of people say this game is great because it has a tutorial but when we look at the data, not many people play these tutorial modes. This is the same when you buy something new, you take it home and you don’t read the manual. It’s a positive for your product if you can say you have a tutorial but when you take a closer look you notice that people aren’t really playing it.“

 

[jett]

That's a good way to put it. Fighting games still have a problem where learning how to play feels like homework.

I don't see how learning a fighter with your mind set towards online play is ever not going to feel like work. Shit's complicated.

 

[Tain]

Cinematic Story modes are a poison.

I guess they have a bigger crowd than I assume, but there are a million cheaper ways to make more engaging single-player modes.

 

[PantsuJo]

Well it's Tekken so it's immune to criticism.

Only Capcom games get dozens of negative headlines and threads, that's the rules

Lowkeybait.gif

 

[BHK3]

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xPs3bzo_ZAQ/V83PJxzte4I/AAAAAAAAA7c/Ue-KgxlEApEvSEky69jvefxcyAY-sAFFgCLcB/s640/w8m62dCl.jpg[IMG]

I was quite surprised when I learned online mode was utterly broken on PS4 for several weeks. Where was the outrage.[/QUOTE]

I would've returned the game to best buy if they would've let me honestly, shit didn't work for me for a while and my friend kept spamming me with invites saying everything worked fine for him.

[quote="kitzkozan, post: 251998874"]Is there really any choice given how much you need to invest to not get wreck? Footsies, negative edge, meaties, frame traps, block strings, okizeme, etc.[/QUOTE]

whats funny is that I don't know what half of those mean, yet when I went to my local fighting game event for the very first time I was able to hold my own pretty well. These are people that knew frame data of tekken 7 day 1 of it coming out, everyone had an arcade stick but me and I've never had to play tekken against another person without a delay unless they were AI. I guess you could say the lack of delay was like me taking weights off in an anime but for people who lived and breathed local fighting game events I wasn't expecting to ever even get a single round in.

But I think tutorials don't do a good enough job of saying you don't NEED each and every little thing they teach you. I got up to 8k BP as Guile, Oni, Bison, Balrog I believe and I can't tell you the first thing about frame select or option cancel or any of those other mechanics, I only knew frame data for a few things for when I was Guile or Balrog.

 

[RecRoulette]

I would've returned the game to best buy if they would've let me honestly, shit didn't work for me for a while and my friend kept spamming me with invites saying everything worked fine for him.



whats funny is that I don't know what half of those mean, yet when I went to my local fighting game event for the very first time I was able to hold my own pretty well. These are people that knew frame data of tekken 7 day 1 of it coming out, everyone had an arcade stick but me and I've never had to play tekken against another person without a delay unless they were AI. I guess you could say the lack of delay was like me taking weights off in an anime.

But I think tutorials don't do a good enough job of saying you don't NEED each and every little thing they teach you. I got up to 8k BP as Guile, Oni, Bison, Balrog I believe and I can't tell you the first thing about frame select or option cancel or any of those other mechanics, I only knew frame data for a few things for when I was Guile or Balrog.

Even if you don't know what the terms mean, I highly doubt that you're just not using those mechanics.

 

[AZUMIKE]

Why not teach people to play your game within the story mode? Blending both together sees like a plausible solution...

 

[Vital Tundra]

Even if people don't play these fighting game tutorials, there still should be an effort to add it and see the bigger picture. If their data says this, I can also imagine their data says most people don't play online. A robust tutorial is the kind of thing you want if you want more people to try online and stick around. Otherwise they'll play the story mode, play the game modes, try online, and get their asses stomped and never want to try again. So instead of saying "people don't use it" go in with the approach of "people might learn a real thing or 2, and not feel like they don't have a chance playing with others. Tutorials i fighting games should be mandatory, REAL tutorials. If you feel the story mode did that, 1 your wrong, it didn't. And 2, you could implement a real tutorial through the single player with a little effort.

 

[WarRock]

Many have suggested story mode should do this. One good example is to drip feed character moves and/or mechanics similar to dungeon fighter, then have bosses being a test for that mechanic. But it seems they are more interested in a mind numbing story with no real personal challenge. They never cared about implementing learning mechanics in tekken and have barely tried in the pas. especially when you looks at how the perfect example Virtua fighter 4 evo which is a almost 20 year old 3d fighter, its downright embarrassing. Seems they are just relying on YT vids to do the work they never wanted to do in the past. Which is why this game unfortunately won't grow much in player base.

I honestly wonder if anyone at Extra Credits actually played DFO or fighting games when they made that video. Such a nonsense analogy that only sounds good on paper.