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Harada makes a statement about the lack/choice of classic characters in Tekken 7

Eolz

Member
The original question he replied to was this:
Will you please seriously consider the fans request for classic characters, and give a definitive answer someday for them? Even if it's a no

to which he finally replied with a twitlonger:
First of all, although I have talked over several times, I'll mention this again.
For me All Characters are like sons and daughters.
Sometimes, you says "Harada dislikes (or hate) xxxx(character name)", but it is a completely selfish belief or misunderstanding.
There is no way I dislike(or hate) characters that we have created or characters that are our assets (Of course I dislike "Spammer or post like spamming" for about this).

It is our responsibility that some characters could not gain popularity.
However, it is also reality that not all characters will get popularity (It is also reality that it will be RANKED. and popularity data and usage data are different).

And it's also true that we need a new character (this means from every aspect).
At the same time, however, the increasing number of characters as 50 or 60 characters(Roster) increases not only the cost but also the complexity as fighting games, and you will notice conflicts with many requests (Although it is only an example, many problems were pointed out in TAG 2. Evaluation was high for TAG 2 from core fans, but good results were not obtained in all. In that point, TK3 and TK7 lead to good results = of course include sales & marketing data. Of course TK5 is highly evaluated also in terms of "number" of Roster. About 30 characters around).
Especially in the early stages of Release, it will be difficult in every respect from game system/balance to budget side (about number of Roster).

We want to make all the characters popular, but sometimes it's difficult.
Statistical data sets us the reality.
Of course, we do not decide everything with just ranking such as usage rate. However, there is an aspect that usage rate data becomes one big indicator/Judgment material (Popularity and usage rate are different depending on the region, as integrated data).
Naturally I know that there are fans in each character, That is why we feel our responsibility.
And sometimes I feel sad (like fans, as fans). Example...Personally, I loved Marduk's game play.
However, it is also statistically true that he (Marduk) could not gain much support from fans.

If we only decide everything on statistical data such as usage rate, I'll not read individual opinions etc...in SNS.
For example, Jun was low in usage outside North America, but when TAG 2 it was made to re-appear in Roster with reference to the opinion of SNS
(However, although it was difficult to say that much support was obtained...).

Again, Of course it is our fault that we could not make some characters popular.
But If I could ask you one thing, I'd like to ask for your support strongly when the character is "Active". Please.
I think it would be a matter of course to make a noise when the character is out of the Roster, but the result would have been different if the character was getting the same support when it was active.

So please show me your love (for your favorite character) rather than to cry or anger, If it possible.

Fortunately TK 7 is very selling well(That means that I'll make it easier for me to express my/our opinion to the person who controls our business from us).
We will continue to work on the series in the future.

Thank you.

He's also still giving some details on his twitter account, but as last time with the tutorial, he contradicts himself in several ways.
He talks about how it's not just about statistics, then come back about statistics, makes a weird shortcut about how games with smaller rosters sold better than those with bigger ones (which seems like a weird jump to conclusions), and mixes up regular Tekken and Tag (the latter typically selling to fans rather than a bigger audience).

93mh6i3o4fdz.jpg
 

_Rob_

Member
Sounds pretty fair to me (as far as overheads and workload goes). I can't imagine how much of a headache dealing with so many entitled fans must be, especially when he's evidently so passionate about his work.
 
This is SOOOOO true: popularity data and usage data are different.

We live in an age of data now. What people think is popular or what people want is often simply not backed up by the data.
 

oliverandm

Member
I haven't written in desperation on any social media, because what difference would it make, but man... Lei was always my main man :/
 

Rymuth

Member
They have years and years of online and arcade data from Tekken 5 & 6 to say otherwise.
People dropped Chun Li from online play after she was nerfed. Ranked is simply a different beast. You go with the characters that provide you with the most advantage, be it frame data or exploits.

Doesn't mean Chun Li's getting the axe for future street fighter or that people don't want to play Lei in local casual.
 

ibrahima

Banned
Deeke[VRZ];252373110 said:
Did tekken tag 2 sell poorly?

It was reported to have missed sales targets for the financial year it came out (1.5 mill between Sept 2012 and March/April 2013 compared to 1.7 mill target).

By comparison Tekken 7 is understood to have more or less achieved it's target of 2.1 mill on console with months to spare (I believe it is currently at 2.0).
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
Harada gives people way too much time on twitter. I remember back when tag 2 came out, he freaked out because everyone was demanding specific characters and threatening him on twitter over it.

His explanation here makes perfect logical well reasoned sense.
 

@MUWANdo

Banned
Okay, so, this is a personal and somewhat complex web of nonsense involving a highly unstable individual I was friends and briefly FWBs with, but I can only assume there will be a never-ending clusterfuck on gaf now until the end of time, which inevitably involves you guys and gals on the mod team in some way, so I'm an open book here. The woman in question ended up being completely psychotic and held a grudge against me after a bizarre love triangle situation developed a few years ago between me, her, and another girl (the other girl I ended up in a long-term relationship with shortly thereafter). This NOLA story she apparently just put up on social media is a delusion of a deeply disturbed person who had a total psychological breakdown as a result of me and the other girl getting together, because she (phew, yeah...) became obsessively infatuated with the other girl (she's bi) on sight when the three of us met up. I wanted to just stay friends with the girl making the accusation and made it super super clear ahead of time that me and the other girl were interested in each other romantically and that could play out as such when we met up. Supposedly this was not a problem for her from accusation, but in reality she uhhh wanted me to die painfully after seeing me and the other girl interact. Plus she became infatuated with the other girl simultaneously to this (she's bi), which created the aforementioned bizarre love triangle that ended up causing her to implode and have an apparently very intense and long-lasting grudge. The whole story about how that love triangle thing played out is, frankly, nuts and scary, and involves this girl bringing us to a compound of dangerous scientology spinoff cultists on that same trip, who roofied us, attempted to recruit/scam me and attempted to abduct/rape the girl I ended up dating, in what was a fucking scary situation that resulted in me and the other girl and the rest of my friend circle never speaking to this girl from the accusation again.
 

Creaking

He touched the black heart of a mod
So I should ask him to make my favorite characters ridiculously powerful so that everyone uses them and they'll get in the next game?
 

MrCarter

Member
More cookie cutter corporate bullshit from Harada. Not surprised in the lightest. The sad fact is that a lot of his fans lap this shit up.
 

Pepin

Member
It didn't sell terribly but they and a lot of fans expected it to do better than it did.

TTT2's muted deception plays into what he was talking about: it's a game with a huge roster and a lot of obscure returning characters--bullet points that are erroneously said to guarantee success, especially with casual fans--but it didn't really pay off: it didn't sell especially well and people continued to ignore the obscure/low-played characters like they always do.

Tekken's also a series that's particularly affected by large rosters: it's already a game that requires (and has a reputation for requiring) a lot of "work", so blowing out the roster also blows out the amount of shit the players has to learn and can massively complicate the game, especially if you factor in the tag system.

I'd have always said that Tekken has a much lower barrier for entry than many other fighters out there? Granted, the story is batshit, but who really cares about that?

Mechanically, always thought it's button-masher friendly (to a degree) and even relatively high-level play and footwork comes pretty easily compared to other EVO-standard games?
 
It's one thing to replace an old character with a similar new character. But in the case of Lei, his fighting style was absolutely unique and there's no one even close to replacing him. That's not even counting his legacy status. If people didn't play him it's because Namco didn't make him approachable or competitive enough, which is I think what Harada meant when he said "it's our fault." But that doesn't negate the fact that Lei and Michelle both had classic and unique fighting styles that were replaced with, aside from Chloe, fairly straightforward brawler types.
 

lupinko

Member
I'd have always said that Tekken has a much lower barrier for entry than many other fighters out there? Granted, the story is batshit, but who really cares about that?

Mechanically, always thought it's button-masher friendly (to a degree) and even relatively high-level play and footwork comes pretty easily compared to other EVO-standard games?

Hahahahahahaha, this is rich.
 
It's one thing to replace an old character with a similar new character. But in the case of Lei, his fighting style was absolutely unique and there's no one even close to replacing him. That's not even counting his legacy status. If people didn't play him it's because Namco didn't make him approachable or competitive enough, which is I think what Harada meant when he said "it's our fault." But that doesn't negate the fact that Lei and Michelle both had classic and unique fighting styles that were replaced with, aside from Chloe, fairly straightforward brawler types.

Lei and any clone of Julia is really missing and no one really representing the fighting style either. Was really hoping to see Jaycee as that was a great evolution of the style.

But i play Feng and found to really like Kazumi. And i can't wait to play Geese!
 

MrCarter

Member
trolls are annoying

If you actually believe the bull he said in this and the “tutorial” interview then that’s on you. Not everyone is a “troll” because they have differing views. “Statistical data” is such a vague term that Harada seems to regurgitate to justify why they didn’t include these modes and characters.
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
If you actually believe the bull he said in this and the “tutorial” interview then that’s on you. Not everyone is a “troll” because they have differing views.

i believe that making characters costs money, characters are chosen by priority based on internal data and not everyone can be satisfied. I don't care about your dismissal of logical arguments because of whatever chip on your shoulder you have because your favorite character isnt chosen or a meaningless tutorial mode is not incorporated.
 

MrCarter

Member
i believe that making characters costs money, characters are chosen by priority based on internal data and not everyone can be satisfied. I don't care about your dismissal of logical arguments because of whatever chip on your shoulder you have because your favorite character isnt chosen or a meaningless tutorial mode is not incorporated.

That’s silly because you are completely dismissing what the consumer wants. Of course characters, modes etc costs money (they had years to produce this title after the arcade release anyway) but I believe they didn’t include it due to “statistical data”. That’s just an excuse. They didn’t include these things because they were lazy and are now backtracking with “internal data” due to the backlash.
 

VLQ

Member
That’s silly because you are completely dismissing what the consumer wants. Of course characters, modes etc costs money (they had years to produce this title after the arcade release anyway) but I believe they didn’t include it due to “statistical data”. That’s just an excuse. They didn’t include these things because they were lazy and are now backtracking with “internal data” due to the backlash.

ah, classic
 

Scotia

Banned
More cookie cutter corporate bullshit from Harada. Not surprised in the lightest. The sad fact is that a lot of his fans lap this shit up.

Yep, so true. This is a bullshit excuse from Harada right after another bullshit excuse by Harada. Disappoints me when people just let it slide when it comes to him an T7.
 

@MUWANdo

Banned
Okay, so, this is a personal and somewhat complex web of nonsense involving a highly unstable individual I was friends and briefly FWBs with, but I can only assume there will be a never-ending clusterfuck on gaf now until the end of time, which inevitably involves you guys and gals on the mod team in some way, so I'm an open book here. The woman in question ended up being completely psychotic and held a grudge against me after a bizarre love triangle situation developed a few years ago between me, her, and another girl (the other girl I ended up in a long-term relationship with shortly thereafter). This NOLA story she apparently just put up on social media is a delusion of a deeply disturbed person who had a total psychological breakdown as a result of me and the other girl getting together, because she (phew, yeah...) became obsessively infatuated with the other girl (she's bi) on sight when the three of us met up. I wanted to just stay friends with the girl making the accusation and made it super super clear ahead of time that me and the other girl were interested in each other romantically and that could play out as such when we met up. Supposedly this was not a problem for her from accusation, but in reality she uhhh wanted me to die painfully after seeing me and the other girl interact. Plus she became infatuated with the other girl simultaneously to this (she's bi), which created the aforementioned bizarre love triangle that ended up causing her to implode and have an apparently very intense and long-lasting grudge. The whole story about how that love triangle thing played out is, frankly, nuts and scary, and involves this girl bringing us to a compound of dangerous scientology spinoff cultists on that same trip, who roofied us, attempted to recruit/scam me and attempted to abduct/rape the girl I ended up dating, in what was a fucking scary situation that resulted in me and the other girl and the rest of my friend circle never speaking to this girl from the accusation again.
 
Meh, the character usage argument is a poor argument in my opinion considering that Yoshimitsu and Kuma are in Tekken 7.

Yes, they're legacy characters and arguably mascots of the series. Lei Wulong is also Jackie Chan, and yet he didn't make the cut.


I don't know, we still may see them if Tekken 7 has a "season 2".
 

AwRy108

Member
It's one thing to replace an old character with a similar new character. But in the case of Lei, his fighting style was absolutely unique and there's no one even close to replacing him. That's not even counting his legacy status. If people didn't play him it's because Namco didn't make him approachable or competitive enough, which is I think what Harada meant when he said "it's our fault." But that doesn't negate the fact that Lei and Michelle both had classic and unique fighting styles that were replaced with, aside from Chloe, fairly straightforward brawler types.

Bingo. Lei has been my go-to since TEKKEN 2, and, even as they continued to nerf his damage over the years, I still loved playing as him b/c of how awesomely complex and unique he became. I’ve had way less time to devote to fighting games over the last 8 years b/c of fatherhood, but I still purchase every TEKKEN game just to spend time checking out how Lei had been altered; and so imagine my surprise when I found out that he was altered right out of the roster for TEKKEN 7.

Shame on people who are nasty to Harada about stuff like this; however, I do think it’s fair that people offer their constructive feedback about this franchise that, to many, has been a staple of the genre, maybe even of the industry: for me, removing such a long-running, unique character was like removing some of the essence of the game itself. Would much rather see a few of the generic brawlers disappear, especially if it enables bringing Lei back.

Meh, the character usage argument is a poor argument in my opinion considering that Yoshimitsu and Kuma are in Tekken 7.

Yeah, seriously.
 
I don't care how they choose, but I'm not buying this installment until they get a Chang/Jinrae-style fighter in. First home Tekken I've ever sat out.
 

ZeroX03

Banned
I've been saying forever that the characters who didn't make it in were largely on the bottom rungs on character usage in Tag 2 (data we've seen). Anna, Julia, Marduk, Roger, Baek, Wang and Zafina were all near the bottom. IIRC, Eddie and Christie were both quite low but combined were probably above those characters. Eddie was a little less popular but Katarina arguably fulfills Christie's visual role. Harada isn't lying about the stats.

Yoshi and Kuma are the exceptions as they were unpopular but have also been in every Tekken title*. Armor King was quite popular but they seemed to want to shy away from similar characters.


*different Kumas if you want to get technical

He talks about how it's not just about statistics, then come back about statistics, makes a weird shortcut about how games with smaller rosters sold better than those with bigger ones (which seems like a weird jump to conclusions), and mixes up regular Tekken and Tag (the latter typically selling to fans rather than a bigger audience).

He's saying statistics are a very important factor but not the only deciding factor (hence Yoshi and Kuma). He's also saying a smaller roster means a more approachable game and the sales reflect that. English isn't his strength, obviously, but it's easy to see where he's coming from.
 
Tekken for me at least is played almost exclusively offline - how can they have data on who I use? I get that every character you add makes the game more complicated and expensive, but trying to link that to sales is ridiculous imo.

Lei not being in the game is a mistake. Tag 2 didn't sell what they wanted because it's a dense game to get into, but 7 has gone too far the other way I think. It's doing well because we have no other Tekken options on this gen.

And there's no real replacement for Bruce :(

ETA: I think if Tag 2 had been the only Tekken last gen it would've done similar if not better numbers than 7.
 
I can't blame him nor anyone else at Namco-Bandai.

You have to imagine each character requires a decent number of man-hours to be designed, animated, balance tested, have QA done etc.

I'm not a Tekken super-fan in all honesty, but as neat as it is to have a gigantic roster like Tag 2 had, I likely only ever used about 10 of those characters when playing it myself. As we push companies to improve graphics, add more features it just becomes an impossible task.
 

Kintaro

Worships the porcelain goddess
Wouldnt usage data be dictated by a characters tier? If a character is weaker than ithers, even if you love them, it wont be used as much. Doesnt Harada and team dictate control this? Essentially, they are controlling who gets used the most due to tier.

Kind of nonsense.
 
He's also still giving some details on his twitter account, but as last time with the tutorial, he contradicts himself in several ways.
He talks about how it's not just about statistics, then come back about statistics, makes a weird shortcut about how games with smaller rosters sold better than those with bigger ones (which seems like a weird jump to conclusions), and mixes up regular Tekken and Tag (the latter typically selling to fans rather than a bigger audience).

Not really. In either case he's still saying it's about analytics, but he's saying that their are more nuanced factors than just usage in one region etc.

If anything, you are making inferences about the demographics and target audiences of Tekken games, which you have no data on (saying Tekken Tag, isn't the same audience as regular Tekken).

It's not really that complicated. He's saying they tried to include the most popular characters, with some consideration to which were the most popular, within each region. Obviously there are other, logistical challenges too, like the dev team only having time to work on a limited number of characters. I think in general, there isn't anyone in the Tekken 7 roster that I anticipate is likely to be seen as a wasted slot.

Speaking more generally. I appreciate Harada's openness about their process and I think the negativity that's often associated with the use of analytics, and other user research methods such as playtesting often dissuades most developers from offering that level of transparency. I think their are a lot of misconceptions about how user research and data science influence game development, and in general, the gaming community (NeoGAF and similar) help spread those misconceptions resultant, misplaced negativity.

Wouldnt usage data be dictated by a characters tier? If a character is weaker than ithers, even if you love them, it wont be used as much. Doesnt Harada and team dictate control this? Essentially, they are controlling who gets used the most due to tier.

Kind of nonsense.

Just to speculate, but I doubt it's as clear cut as Hareda described in a tweet. Their are statistical methods you could use to examine character usage while mediating the impact of other variables such as win-rate. Additionally, while tier lists are a significant factor in competitive tournaments, they often don't have the impact you might suspect on the community at large. As an example, Ryu and Ken are pretty crap in SFIV, yet they were still the characters you would see most commonly online. Same with characters like Juri in SFV, Juri sucks, rare at high level competitive, but she appears common at low and mid levels of play (obviously, just my own observations).

Additionally, Hareda admits that if they weren't popular enough, it's his studios fault. That means, he's aware that the design of the character, including their overall efficacy, has an impact on selection rate.


That's silly because you are completely dismissing what the consumer wants. Of course characters, modes etc costs money (they had years to produce this title after the arcade release anyway) but I believe they didn't include it due to ”statistical data". That's just an excuse. They didn't include these things because they were lazy and are now backtracking with ”internal data" due to the backlash.

Perfect example. You don't have a clue, and yet you assert the developer was 'lazy'. 100s of members of staff likely worked through crunch to even get the game released. People need to stop with this nonsense.

And yet there are not one but TWO bears in this game. In separate character slots! No one likes them!

Likely because the bears overall are popular, and the overlapping moves makes it very easy to put two in. If Kuma already existed, adding Panda is no where near equivalent to the work of that adding Jill would be, for instance.
 

ZeroX03

Banned
Wouldnt usage data be dictated by a characters tier? If a character is weaker than ithers, even if you love them, it wont be used as much. Doesnt Harada and team dictate control this? Essentially, they are controlling who gets used the most due to tier.

Kind of nonsense.

Tiers only matter at a competitive level. Which is a small part of the player base. 90%+ of players aren't aware of or picking from tier lists. Harada would have access to a bunch of offline usage data that we've never seen and also be able to see character usage spread relative to rank. Even then there's pretty wide variety in arcade usage data, a much more competitive scene. Being weak never stopped Lili, Asuka, Alisa, Ling (in Tag 2) getting played. At most it made Bob seem popular.

And yet there are not one but TWO bears in this game. In separate character slots! No one likes them!

Panda has one different move than Kuma. Separate slot or not it's meaningless, it's one character.
 
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