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Harada: "Development costs are now 10 times more expensive than in the 90's and more than double or nearly triple the cost of Tekken 7"
- Thread starter Thick Thighs Save Lives
- Start date
- Game Dev
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
“In the past there weren't so many specs and there wasn't online.” but but I was thought it was all a bunch of switches to flip, super easy barely an inconvenience!!!!
… sigh 
…
tommycronin
Banned
Games are just trojan horses for where the real money is made these days. They're 10 times more expensive yeah but 100 times more scummy in getting money out of you.
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Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
And that's why you're using middleware like Unreal Engine which makes it cheaper/easier and have opened yourself to a market much larger than in the 90s with additional platforms and regions and a more mainstream gaming industry than ever and sell all kinds of DLC and micro transactions on top of the base game. Also it was your desire to go all cinematic story etc. for something people will play once and be done with and wouldn't really make a difference to the game's success as most would be content with the standard old arcade mode with neat endings and then go multiplayer.
Also why you're using animations from the 90s, I guess. Bazinga. Something wrong with your backend if it's expensive to run matchmaking and profiles and what not for a peer to peer 1 vs 1 fighting game that doesn't require dedicated servers handling 10s of players in an FPS match or whatever.
Also why you're using animations from the 90s, I guess. Bazinga. Something wrong with your backend if it's expensive to run matchmaking and profiles and what not for a peer to peer 1 vs 1 fighting game that doesn't require dedicated servers handling 10s of players in an FPS match or whatever.
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GHG
Member
“In the past there weren't so many specs and there wasn't online.” but but I was thought it was all a bunch of switches to flip, super easy barely an inconvenience!!!!
Said by people who have never written a single line of code before in their lives.
clarky
Gold Member
Just buy one and done games then?
You want games that continues to evolve then they have to earn money some how. Im playing Last Epoch at the moment and have no issues with the price of entry nor the cosmetic store.
sankt-Antonio
:^)--?-<
Tekken7 sold ten times more copies than Tekken1, so I don't see the problem here.
Fabieter
Member
I think tekken 3 sold almost 10m so no. The big games from the 90s ain't that much bigger nowadays. People just think gaming industry is easy money and we are just scammed. We are not tho.
tommycronin
Banned
I agree yeah that's exactly what I'm doing now. Seeing things like ingame store and 60 euro for 5000 supercoins in any game thats also asking for big money for the base game has become an instant skip for me most of the time. It's a clear indicator of where the developers time is going to be spent primarily.
To really enjoy them kind of games first you gotta pay the admission fee which is in most cases now a full price game which is why I don't cry when I hear publishers cry about not selling enough copies.
Team Andromeda
Member
I must have grown up in a different 90's. There was online and a multitude of specs. Massive differences between the consoles specs, massive difference between the specs of Arcade boards and the vast number of PC 3D cards too but hey at least one could buy a house in the 90s and people worked
clarky
Gold Member
I think he meant in the early days that they just had to develop for one platform, like the PS1 or 2.
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Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
They are… it is still not cheap nor easy, unless you check the game on the single PC specs you have in the office and tell your customers to tweak the game settings to adjust it (aka, you optimise it dear customer) and fix stuff that your crowdsourced QA (aka customers) report post launch. I call that slippery slope of enshittification… :/… You could raise game prices, but we are also seeing gamers happier to be fleeced by MTX than paying higher game prices despite inflations, that does not make things easier.
People love HW and SW variety but it has a huge cost and very rapidly diminishing returns too.
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xrnzaaas
Member
Modern games are obviously going to be more expensive than 90s games, because you can't even compare the level of complexity needed to make a big game. On the other hand you now have plenty of ready-to-use development tools & assets and the option to rely on popular engines without having to create them on your own. Plus you can earn a ton of money on cosmetic stuff, season passes or new characters and modern fighting games often prey on that, charging ridiculous sums for things that weren't expensive to make.
With the costs constantly increasing the companies need to start managing their budgets better to lower the risks of commercial fails - set clear reachable goals, have qualified people monitor milestones and avoid draining millions on long marketing campaigns starting long before the game's release.
The only thing that's more or less out of your control are the server costs. The more popular game you make the more expensive it'll be to maintain it. I don't think there's an easy solution to that other that paying attention to the current popularity so that people aren't pissed waiting in queues and there aren't empty servers running you have to pay for each month.
With the costs constantly increasing the companies need to start managing their budgets better to lower the risks of commercial fails - set clear reachable goals, have qualified people monitor milestones and avoid draining millions on long marketing campaigns starting long before the game's release.
The only thing that's more or less out of your control are the server costs. The more popular game you make the more expensive it'll be to maintain it. I don't think there's an easy solution to that other that paying attention to the current popularity so that people aren't pissed waiting in queues and there aren't empty servers running you have to pay for each month.
lh032
I cry about Xbox and hate PlayStation.
is it easier though?
And im sure most cost is coming from wages, employee benefits and server
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Team Andromeda
Member
Well, he should be more clear
Its funny how the industry says this when SONY are laying off staff. When EA do it, it's a totally difference story...
Lethal01
Member
Doing this is what helps things stay "Only" 10x more expensive instead of going even higher.
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clarky
Gold Member
Lay offs are just a fact of life as whatever industry you might be in expands and contracts. Its sucks bit it is what it is
You dont see Jason whats his face trumpeting new hires too often do we?
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Hydroxy
Member
Well then cut your costs but not by laying off people but by being more efficient. Inflation has not increased 10 tines by 90s but the salaries of ceo and top management have. That should where the first cost cutting should be. But ofcourse that's the last thing they would wanna do.
Team Andromeda
Member
Job losses have always been a part of gaming and its hard to think of any industry that isn't seeing increased costs compared to the 90's
I don't think COVID helped or the cost of working from home Many industries are having a Covid19 correction
Hopefully things will settle down a bit
clarky
Gold Member
Yep tough times ahead for all I think.
Damien Crowley
Member
Still no excuse for MTX in T8, Harada let us all down, like Paul's hair...
clarky
Gold Member
Yes and no. Salaries maybe not but team sizes and dev costs have mushroomed since covid.
Just look at the cost of spiderman 1 compared to 2.
Team Andromeda
Member
Yep I think for many. Hopefully, we'll see a correction in football too. Clubs spending 80% of their earnings on players wages just can't go on
Hydroxy
Member
Well then reduce development costs by being more efficient. Don't tell it can't be done. There are many games out there which give aaa like experience for a fraction of budget of some of these big franchise bloated games. Making movies and games have become ridiculously expensive because of the inefficiency and huge bonuses and salaries of the top management who know nothing about making movies or games.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
A small number of them do. Most do not. And there are many more games being made today so competition is much more fierce.
killatopak
Member
I'm thinking this must have cost more because of less ROI due to no arcade version of T8.
Still what he is saying is true. What's also true is that these games that are great are experiencing record breaking sales. Wheat separates itself from chaff and there are loads of chaff nowadays.
Still what he is saying is true. What's also true is that these games that are great are experiencing record breaking sales. Wheat separates itself from chaff and there are loads of chaff nowadays.
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SmokedMeat
Gamer™
Ten times more expensive to make, and it doesn’t really look much better than Tekken 7.
clarky
Gold Member
[
Thats not what he said?
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
Double to triple the cost. My mistake, I haven’t had my morning coffee yet.
NeverYouMind
Member
Tekken 7 looks worse than Tekken 5 Dark Resurrection on PS3 and runs at a lower resolution on consoles without much improvement on PC. Tekken 8 at least offers some improvements over Tekken Tag Tournament 2's presentation.
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That's not what he said at all, and you're still wrong.
Yep. I think Mortal Kombat 2 looks better than the latest MK. They should make another like it and wouldn't cost 100 million and 4 years to make either.
NeverYouMind
Member
They are also more polished in mechanics and responsiveness. The difference between playing Metal Gear Solid 2 and Phantom Pain is massive.
No way. Only Mortal Kombat 3 looks better. The costumes in MK2 are over-the-top cheesy props.
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Variahunter
Member
Yeah let's all go back to Nes graphics !
Those takes...
Then you see people whine about graphics of Rise of the Ronin while they're perfectly acceptable, even pretty to me. There is a middle ground but it's still cost a FUCKING LOT.
What I don't understand is the need to make cinematic games from AA developers. Like, they know that their production values is not good, but they still try to take the "cinematic game with production value" route. What you get in the end is a boring game with bad cinematics, bad gameplay (because most of the $$$ have been spent on cinematic, and made by western dev so it's bad most of the time) and subpar graphics.
Last offender : Banishers: Ghosts of New Eden
Next : Alone in the Dark.
Take a hint at From Soft : they don't care about cinematics, they don't animate dialogues and guess what, they're still some of the most immersive games out there. Similarly, NioH has more cutscenes/dialogue but nobody cares about them, we're here for the gameplay, so cutscenes with dialogues are a complete waste. At least Rise of the Ronin seems better in that department, but the gameplay is still the primary focus.
Gameplay / Game design > Art style > Level design > Graphics. All of those are important but the developers must know what matters the most (of course in an action / aventure / RPG / stealth game, the order would be different for a racing game. Still, gameplay is first.
Storytelling and the means to achieve it should not be a priority, because most of it is trash in videogames. There's so many ways to tell a story in cheap ways, but some of them still spend millions in "production values" for bad results.
We don't get guys like Yasumi Matsuno anymore. So don't bother.
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Fabieter
Member
I beg to differ while I dont need the highest production values. Team ninja and sqaure enix got flak for their upcoming games looking like shit.
Gamers always complain no matter what.
Toots
Gold Member
You're right but it's just more polishing not doing something new fundamentally.
Comfort is good but it breeds complacency.
Kojima's switcharoo with Raiden in MGS2 is the kind of genius creative idea we won't ever see again from a huge studio im afraid, because games cost 10 times to make and are 100 times less creative (because the ones fronting the money are risk averse money grabbing machines)
NeverYouMind
Member
I hate Raiden... Him expiring within five minutes would have made the game better.
Absolute wanker twit.
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Angry_Megalodon
Member
Gamers (and hence, developers) are being pushed (harassed, even) into the specs race by the same companies that now lecture us on cost efficiency and the global economy. I call it bullshit.
A PS5 Pro is in the works while these very people ask us for more money for their long-ass development cycles.
A company that spends a single penny in ESG and superfluous stuff has no business whining about costs.
A PS5 Pro is in the works while these very people ask us for more money for their long-ass development cycles.
A company that spends a single penny in ESG and superfluous stuff has no business whining about costs.
Griffon
Member
Harada is absolutely right.
I remember very well how Tekken 6 and Tekken Tag Tournament 2 released.
Yes there were no MTX and no season passes, but also absolutely no support after release. Those games didn't get any patches, no new content, nothing.
Yeah, Tekken 7 season passes made owning the "complete game" more expensive, but also the game got a lot better each year with active support from the developer.
I remember very well how Tekken 6 and Tekken Tag Tournament 2 released.
Yes there were no MTX and no season passes, but also absolutely no support after release. Those games didn't get any patches, no new content, nothing.
Yeah, Tekken 7 season passes made owning the "complete game" more expensive, but also the game got a lot better each year with active support from the developer.
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crackajack
Member
And gamers have 100 times more options to inform themselves about bugs and if a game is worth it, also worth its planned already locked away add-ons.
10 times cost does not mean anyone must think it has to be feel 10x more worth for them.
Previously you got a complete product, at the early days with a very limited set of characters, now especially with fighters you get sometimes a similarly barebones experience but many characters from sequel 3, 4, 5 whatever, are now locked away.
It's a struggle for them, of course, but the market will work it out. There is probably not enough room for VF, Tekken, SF, MK, SC, KI, DoA, KoF, Inbirth exe abcdef whatever, Darkstalkers, Guilty Gear, Smash Bros... and all the games that already died in the SNES days. Very much like racing games, there should just be one release per series per gen, and you build every upgrade and expansion, free or payed, onto that. Numbering sequels make zero sense for such games. And some among the known IPs will not survive when their costs are climbing too high, so probably the 3D variants are most at risk, while cheaper old skool animated stuff can continue its existence in a small niche quite comfortably.
10 times cost does not mean anyone must think it has to be feel 10x more worth for them.
Previously you got a complete product, at the early days with a very limited set of characters, now especially with fighters you get sometimes a similarly barebones experience but many characters from sequel 3, 4, 5 whatever, are now locked away.
It's a struggle for them, of course, but the market will work it out. There is probably not enough room for VF, Tekken, SF, MK, SC, KI, DoA, KoF, Inbirth exe abcdef whatever, Darkstalkers, Guilty Gear, Smash Bros... and all the games that already died in the SNES days. Very much like racing games, there should just be one release per series per gen, and you build every upgrade and expansion, free or payed, onto that. Numbering sequels make zero sense for such games. And some among the known IPs will not survive when their costs are climbing too high, so probably the 3D variants are most at risk, while cheaper old skool animated stuff can continue its existence in a small niche quite comfortably.
NeverYouMind
Member
And they were still infinitely better than Tekken 7 across its whole run and a step up from previous entries.
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