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[InterMusketeer]

You sure can. But this to me seems to be more like people getting worked up over a game they were never going to get in the first place, which I just feel is funny and/or sad.

Okay. I don't understand why it's seemingly that hard for you to consider the studio's long time fans' feelings concerning any new projects ND may be working on, but whatever.

I'm not a long time fan myself (I casually enjoyed ND's games) but I can see the point the guy in the video is making, certainly. I don't think him, or anyone expressing their feelings about something they're passionate about is funny or sad.

 

[Whitecrow]

I find kinda funny because making the focus and putting neon signals over homosexual/transgender things is the only thing that is making them different.



The bigger the label, the worse. You want inclusion? Stop talking to them as different people. Is as easy.

 

[TwiztidElf]

A good game is a good game.
That's what is unique about video games, good gameplay will always shine.

I'm also going to play the 'work of fiction' card.
This is fiction so writers can write whatever story they like.
People who use this argument for bald space marines can't have it both ways.

If the market doesn't like a product, the market will decide its future. Right?

 

[mckmas8808]

It's funny how you ignore what people are saying and continue to spout the same thing over and over again.

Again no company is shoving anything down your throat. Unless you consider me having to play as a white guy for the first 20 years of my life is being shoved down my throat, then maybe you would have a point. Would you consider that being shoved down my throat?

You're wrong. He's refering to something Druckmann has stated before about Nathan's child:



It's not that people want Nate to have a son. It's something ND came up with themselves, then changed because this new character could also be a girl.

I mean, I just find that a very weird way to write your characters. Would anything change if this was a female character? No? Let's change it then! Most characters, especially in video games, could be gender swapped without issue, because their gender doesn't matter in he slightest. Drake could have been a woman the entire time, and all of the love interests men. It wouldn't have changed much about the games. In fact, if you gender swap Drake, you get a character that already exists: Lara Croft.

Have you ever ridden for any kind of intellectual property? Are we sure that's not how characters are created in the past? Seriously for all I know that's the way it's always been done for the past 50 years in books, movies, and TV shows.

Like you said it really wouldn't matter if he had a son, but they decided it would be a daughter instead. It's truly fine either way without thinking that there is an agenda attached to it. Or he could have simply said I'm tired of creating guys in my games over and over and over let's create a young girl. That reason alone is also fine.

In the same way where does every character have to have brown hair? If someone after thinking about it once the person to have blonde hair that's fine. It's up to the Creator to come up with their own characters and have their own reasons. But simply deciding that the kid would be a girl after thinking it would be a boy at first is simply okay. It's not like the main character of that Series has it been mainly guys this whole time. In a way it kind of would be boring if the next set of games was the son of Drake. I mean it that point why not just make more Drake games in Uncharted. Making it a daughter gives it a different texture going forward in the series if they continue it on. It's small things like that there could be the reason why they decided the kid would be a girl instead. And that's totally fine. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

 

[Guileless]

Hot lesbians making out? Videogames have finally caught up to the progressive gender politics of Cinemax after dark circa 1993.

 

[HarryKS]

To be fair, attractive couples, do, on average, have more daughters than sons.

Should have tried for a second though. 1 is not enough.

 

[mckmas8808]

A good game is a good game.
That's what is unique about video games, good gameplay will always shine.

I'm also going to play the 'work of fiction' card.
This is fiction so writers can write whatever story they like.
People who use this argument for bald space marines can't have it both ways.

If the market doesn't like a product, the market will decide its future. Right?

Right now it looks like the market is in love with what naughty dog has been doing with their games. So everything is looking good so far for them.

 

[InterMusketeer]

Have you ever ridden for any kind of intellectual property? Are we sure that's not how characters are created in the past? Seriously for all I know that's the way it's always been done for the past 50 years in books, movies, and TV shows.

For a while now people have been complaining about lack of representation of women and minorities in media, so I'm guessing that method wasn't used much before, haha. I'm pretty sure Druckmann specifically was influenced by several feminists to change his work in that way. He's said that openly.

Like you said it really wouldn't matter if he had a son, but they decided it would be a daughter instead. It's truly fine either way without thinking that there is an agenda attached to it. Or he could have simply said I'm tired of creating guys in my games over and over and over let's create a young girl. That reason alone is also fine.

You're acting like it's a mystery or something. Druckmann came out and said he had an agenda to make his games inclusive according to modern feminist theory. We know the reason. We know he has an agenda and that he's made choices to push it. The video in the OP lays it all out pretty clearly.

It's small things like that there could be the reason why they decided the kid would be a girl instead. And that's totally fine. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

I'm going to refer to the video again, and say that on its own, that choice is fine, and not suspicious at all. It's a lot of these tiny things combined, the inclusion of many "strong" female characters in their recent games, the sharing of shipping two established hetero characters, hiring a trans person for that reason alone despite him making numerous hateful comments about white people, letting their employee attack fans on twitter etc. that shows a, in my opinion, very obvious ulterior motive behind a lot of the choices they're making.

And, like I said before, that heavy handedness will probably lose them some fans. RobinGaming's video has 10k likes and only 1k dislikes. Most viewers seem to agree with him. Maybe ND is aware of this, and they're fine with trading in some of their old fans for new ones. That's their choice.

 

[HaveButOneLife]

Watched it already. It was on point on many levels and I'll repeat what I've been telling everyone else; forced, fabricated "diversity" isn't very "diverse" and the message is lost. This video isn't meant to convey "I'm not going to play this game" because Robin enjoys the series, he's essentially saying that Naughty Dog trying to cram social justice propaganda down our throats is alienating opposing thought for the purpose of their own mere personal satisfaction.

It's ironically turning into hate itself and, even though game developers have every right to make whatever experience they want for players, this issue can change with enough backlash. My issue with the E3 kiss was not depictions of LGBT romance, but PDA in front of a mass audience. It's arguably inappropriate, and even if they showed straight people doing that it still would have had some sort of negative reaction in my opinion.

The trailer looked great and I have no problem with it. If they are trying to push some agenda then I have no problem with it.

I'm just going to be honest, I think you don't have a problem with it because you agree with their agenda.

Man, we wouldn't have this entire conversation if Ellie was kissing a guy which makes me wonder at what point people stop consider same sex couple as something "wierd" and see as normal couple? If that's ND so called "agenda" then I'm all for it because it needs to start from somewhere.

Who said that same-sex couples are "weird"? We're just saying that any form of PDA in front of a mass audience that is in turn out of place should be considered inappropriate, no matter the sexuality involved. This form of "agenda", make no mistake, is propaganda.

 

[Cybrwzrd]

Again no company is shoving anything down your throat. Unless you consider me having to play as a white guy for the first 20 years of my life is being shoved down my throat, then maybe you would have a point. Would you consider that being shoved down my throat?

That's not really true though. There have been black characters throughout gaming history. Not only that, in the early days of gaming, most characters were not white guys, but cartoon characters. Hell, most of the old classics came out of Japan, a country full of people with light colored skin tones. They still made black characters, even though it wasn't a core part at all of their audience.

If you are looking for validation in 8/16 bit sprites you have some sort of complex.

 

[MayauMiao]

I wonder if Bruce Straley left Naughty Dog will have an effect to TLOU2 in terms of storyline and characters.

If Neil have it his way, I worry he will go Rian Johnson on TLOU2.

 

[HaveButOneLife]

Again no company is shoving anything down your throat. Unless you consider me having to play as a white guy for the first 20 years of my life is being shoved down my throat, then maybe you would have a point. Would you consider that being shoved down my throat?

Wanting to convey an agenda for political and/or social commentary is the definition of shoving ideas down our throats. The difference between having innocent white men characters for "20 years" and enforcing social justice propaganda is the fact that the white guy wasn't inserted into the games for the purpose of conveying a political message telling people of color to "just get over it" and/or alienating those with opposing thought.

It was simply what the developers wanted to incorporate because the majority of gamers are of European descent, or were inspired by films with exaggerated white male characters because of the fact that they were the typical depiction of powerful action heroes, not because they felt that white men weren't being fairly represented. That's the difference

 

[Cybrwzrd]

Wanting to convey an agenda for political and/or social commentary is the definition of shoving ideas down our throats. The difference between having innocent white men characters for "20 years" and enforcing social justice propaganda is the fact that the white guy wasn't inserted into the games for the purpose of conveying a political message telling people of color to "just get over it".

It was simply what the developers wanted to incorporate because the majority of gamers are of European descent.

The vast majority of gamers in the West you mean, overall Asians outnumber everyone else by many levels of magnitude.

 

[HaveButOneLife]

The vast majority of gamers in the West you mean, overall Asians outnumber everyone else by many levels of magnitude.

I edited my post. But in terms of gaming in-general? I'd say most of them are American (both US and Canada) and European, but Japan does make up a fair amount too. To be fair, it's moreso the fact that developers wanted to represent the powerful action heroes from action flicks. I'd say that Asia outnumbers the west (and I guess Russia as well) by about a billion. Which is a lot, but I personally wouldn't say that they "outnumber everyone else by many levels of magnitude", but I guess that can be argued.

 

[Jon Neu]

The vast majority of gamers in the West you mean, overall Asians outnumber everyone else by many levels of magnitude.

If we talk about traditional consoles, pretty much the industry and the gamers are a majority of european heritage.

 

[Redshirt]

If we talk about traditional consoles, pretty much the industry and the gamers are a majority of european heritage.

Interesting. The receipts? Or tales from your ass?

 

[nowhat]

If we talk about traditional consoles, pretty much the industry and the gamers are a majority of european heritage.

...like after the video game crash of 1983 (which, at the time, almost obliterated the entire console market), when the whole console market was revitalized by the all-European-heritage companies like Nintendo and Sega?

 

[Kenpachii]

Pretty much your average dutch person view.

 

[Jon Neu]

Interesting. The receipts? Or tales from your ass?

Maybe everything is a conspiracy and that's why the majority of games have white protagonists despite being apparently not made by a majority of white people to another majority of white people.

We'll never know till we see the receipts.

...like after the video game crash of 1983 (which, at the time, almost obliterated the entire console market), when the whole console market was revitalized by the all-European-heritage companies like Nintendo and Sega?

That was 35 years ago.

 

[Darkking2001]

If its not forced it would never happen btw

Keep that in mind

 

[Redshirt]

Maybe everything is a conspiracy and that's why the majority of games have white protagonists despite being apparently not made by a majority of white people to another majority of white people.

We'll never know till we see the receipts.

So, tales from your ass. Pretty much in line w/ all of your shitty posts.

 

[Fbh]

So basically when a game features topics and elements you like it's freedom of speech and devs rightfully telling the story they want to.
But when it features topics you disagree with it's an "agenda".

Yes, the current ND seems to have a lot of people with "leftist"/"liberal" views, and it's perfectly fine if they want to represent some of that in their games. So what is it? have games become a valid storytelling medium or are they still basically toys? Because you can't argue they are art in one discussion and then be shocked when topics which are important to the writer of a story appear in the story he/she writes.

As for the latest TLOU2 trailer I fail to see the drama. To me it didn't seem like it was pushing an "agenda" or it was pandering. The first time we see Ellie she is really pissed and says she will "kill every single one of them", the second time we see her we see that she seems pretty happy and is in a relationship. Then it cuts to her brutally murdering people which seems to show that something bad happens to her girlfriend and it pushes her to become the more brutal and ruthless Ellie we see later on. Seems like a pretty basic way to give hints of the story and I can't imagine anyone would have a problem with the trailer if she was kissing a guy.

Also, maybe it's just me or maybe I'm too old but who gives a fuck about what people said on Twitter?. There was no romance between Chloe and Nadine in the game not did ND's left tendencies affect the game in a negative way IMO but people still need to go like "b..but someone from ND posted this pic on Twitter!!!!"

 

[n0razi]

I feel like people who try to appeal equidistant by putting those who criticize SJW and SJW at the same level, are always with a clear sympathy to SJW politics.

Not at all... you can easily see that most of the time it is used, its just a lazy catch all term

 

[Jon Neu]

So, tales from your ass. Pretty much in line w/ all of your shitty posts.

At first I thought your user name was Redshit.

Really foreshadowing there.

Not at all... you can easily see that most of the time it is used, its just a lazy catch all term

It's used to describe pretty well a certain type of political agenda. But I understand that people who are kind of sympathetic with said agenda don't like the term.

 

[nowhat]

That was 35 years ago.

Yes, it was. Arguably, it was a turning point in the whole console industry, moving from mostly shovelware to games people actually want to buy and play. It birthed the "third generation" of consoles, i.e. the 8-bit era, the original NES and Sega Master System. This was followed by the fourth generation, i.e. the 16-bit era. SNES and Sega Mega Drive/Genesis were all the rage, and portable gaming (being more than just simple single-game disposable junk) was born too, GameBoy being the most prominent/successful. The fifth generation brought us the original Playstation and N64, Sega Saturn too I suppose to an extent. Now you many be complaining that I've been up until ignoring the runner-ups - which is because in the large scheme of things, they really were a side note in history. But OK, there were Atari Jaguar and 3DO too in this era. Remember those? Me neither.

It wasn't until the sixth generation that a non-Japanese company would have any major foothold in the console market since the 1983 crash, and while the original Xbox did ok I guess, the generation was utterly dominated by PS2. I don't think those sales numbers will be ever broken, especially for a non-portable console. Gamecube did ok too, although not as well as Nintendo surely would have hoped. Dreamcast... Sega, it was nice to know you. So long and thanks for all the fish (that fishing game with a dedicated fishing controller on a Dreamcast was just so much stupid fun).

Then we enter Sony's "Vegas Elvis"-phase, that is PS3. It was a gamble, it was arrogant, it didn't pay off and almost bankrupted the whole company. Here Microsoft actually was in the lead for a very long time in their battle against Sony (although in the end globally 360 and PS3 sales ended up pretty much tied). However, the obvious winner was Nintendo with the Wii. Yes, it was cheaper, yes, the attachment rate may have been low - but in terms of consoles sold, there's no contest, Nintendo won.

Which brings us to the current generation, where Sony is outselling Microsoft 2:1, and Nintendo, while struggling quite a bit with WiiU, seems to be making a tremendous comeback with the Switch. And let us not forget, ever since its conception (ignoring gaming on smartphones, which is a rather new phenomenon), Nintendo has pretty much dominated the handheld gaming market.

So, there's a recap of consoles for the past 35 years. Now your original argument was "If we talk about traditional consoles, pretty much the industry and the gamers are a majority of european heritage". I'm not going to comment on gamers, but if we're talking about the "industry" - in those 35 years since the crash, there has been a single generation where a non-Japanese console manufacturer has been even relatively close to being at the top in terms of units sold (and was still quite far off). So I'd argue that the industry is very much of not European heritage (at least not entirely, obviously corporations employ people all over the world).

Unless you mean "traditional consoles" as in Atari 2600 and the like, in which case, sure; but you're ignoring a large part of history then.

 

[siavash]

So basically when a game features topics and elements you like it's freedom of speech and devs rightfully telling the story they want to.
But when it features topics you disagree with it's an "agenda".

Yes, the current ND seems to have a lot of people with "leftist"/"liberal" views, and it's perfectly fine if they want to represent some of that in their games. So what is it? have games become a valid storytelling medium or are they still basically toys? Because you can't argue they are art in one discussion and then be shocked when topics which are important to the writer of a story appear in the story he/she writes.

As for the latest TLOU2 trailer I fail to see the drama. To me it didn't seem like it was pushing an "agenda" or it was pandering. The first time we see Ellie she is really pissed and says she will "kill every single one of them", the second time we see her we see that she seems pretty happy and is in a relationship. Then it cuts to her brutally murdering people which seems to show that something bad happens to her girlfriend and it pushes her to become the more brutal and ruthless Ellie we see later on. Seems like a pretty basic way to give hints of the story and I can't imagine anyone would have a problem with the trailer if she was kissing a guy.

Also, maybe it's just me or maybe I'm too old but who gives a fuck about what people said on Twitter?. There was no romance between Chloe and Nadine in the game not did ND's left tendencies affect the game in a negative way IMO but people still need to go like "b..but someone from ND posted this pic on Twitter!!!!"

i do not mind agenda,it just a boring terndy garbage agenda that i have no intrest in,just my taste

 

[Jon Neu]

So I'd argue that the industry is very much of not European heritage (at least not entirely, obviously corporations employ people all over the world).

Well, if you talk about 35 years ago probably not, but I was talking more recently. And the fact that a console is from Japan doesn't mean that most of it's games can't come from outside of Japan. I thought that was something it didn't even needed to be pointed out.

 

[Red Crayon Aristocrat]

Stuff like this bothers me because of the context of present day politics, when you have an LGBT character in a game it breaks my immersion because it reminds me I'm playing a game in the twenty tens where all this stuff has so much political baggage, makes it harder for me to get fully immersed in the game's world because I know what was behind the decision.

Prey 2017 was like that, it has some obvious virtue signaling moments with LGBT characters that broke my immersion.

What it all comes down to is that baggage, I don't know want to say games can't have LGBT characters, that wouldn't be right and I've enjoyed anime/manga that have yuri (lesbian) themes, but here's the difference, are you making art, entertainment or propaganda?

Art asks questions and explores themes, art doesn't start at a conclusion and backtrack from there, entertainment just wants you to have a fun time, but propaganda either wants to sell you on a worldview, force something down your throat until you learn to like it, or for the already converted it's an easy pat on the back, not a challenge of these views, but an unambiguous reinforcement.

The push for more diversity in games hasn't come about in an organic way but thanks to social engineers like Anita Sarkeesian, Kotaku and everyone else on that bandwagon, if this was the gaming culture of a decade ago I doubt I or anyone else would have a problem with a character like Ellie, much like no one had a problem with Alyx Vance in Half-Life 2, because back then characters like that felt more organic due to it not being part of a hyper-politicized culture.

But at the end of the day this stuff isn't a deal breaker, Prey is still a stellar game well worth playing despite some awkward virtue signaling moments, for The Last of Us 2 it all depends on the games wider story, I mean they can't get THAT topical since the world of Last of Us was supposed to have ended in 2013, so you can't have bandits wearing MAGA hats or whatever.

 

[nowhat]

Well, if you talk about 35 years ago probably not, but I was talking more recently. And the fact that a console is from Japan doesn't mean that most of it's games can't come from outside of Japan. I thought that was something it didn't even needed to be pointed out.

Yes, more recently too. A few generations after the crash were dominated by Japanese manufacturers and to a large extent studios too - had it not been for Nintendo and Sega from the early 80s until early 90s, we might not have consoles at all, at least not as we know them.

But ok, let us move on to today. There are still very prominent and popular Japanese studios. But surely enough, there are also studios all over the world making all kinds of games - which is absolutely a wonderful thing. Here's the thing though. In order to sell their games on $PLATFORM, they must pay a part of the profits to the platform holder. Which brings me, yet again, back to your original point(ish): "pretty much the industry and the gamers are a majority of european heritage" [sic]. By getting a decent chuck of every game sold (and also by helping third-party studios to bring games to their own platforms, thus increasing revenue), I'd argue both Sony and Nintendo are very much a part of the industry, very profitable at that too. Hell, the Playstation division has pretty much saved Sony's ass in recent years (yeah, the financing bit too, but that's rather invisible to consumers, especially in the West). So unless your definition of "the industry" differs very much from the dictionary, I maintain you're wrong. Unless you want to move the goalposts further.

 

[Lionel Richie]

I seriously have 0 issues with the trailer, I thought it was well done if scripted out of its ass in the gameplay bits. I think there might be an "agenda" based on Neil's Twitter, which is kind of a sad side effect of living in the Twitter age more than anything, but that's not a problem by itself. Like any creative work, we should judge it by its own merits. If it's good, great. If it's shit, then we know the people behind it should have worried more about making a coherent experience. This is not a bad video at all, but I think analyzing a trailer is not a very worthwhile endeavor, we definitely should wait until the game is out to see it fully.

 

[Jon Neu]

Yes, more recently too. A few generations after the crash were dominated by Japanese manufacturers and to a large extent studios too - had it not been for Nintendo and Sega from the early 80s until early 90s, we might not have consoles at all, at least not as we know them.

But ok, let us move on to today. There are still very prominent and popular Japanese studios. But surely enough, there are also studios all over the world making all kinds of games - which is absolutely a wonderful thing. Here's the thing though. In order to sell their games on $PLATFORM, they must pay a part of the profits to the platform holder. Which brings me, yet again, back to your original point(ish): "pretty much the industry and the gamers are a majority of european heritage" [sic]. By getting a decent chuck of every game sold (and also by helping third-party studios to bring games to their own platforms, thus increasing revenue), I'd argue both Sony and Nintendo are very much a part of the industry, very profitable at that too. Hell, the Playstation division has pretty much saved Sony's ass in recent years (yeah, the financing bit too, but that's rather invisible to consumers, especially in the West). So unless your definition of "the industry" differs very much from the dictionary, I maintain you're wrong. Unless you want to move the goalposts further.

The original point was that games had white leads because majority of people doing them are from european heritage, not if the Sony gaming division saved his ass. You are the one moving the goalposts constantly.

Heck, even japanese developers are greatly influenced by western culture and have white people as leads in their games.

 

[DGrayson]

So, tales from your ass. Pretty much in line w/ all of your shitty posts.

Everyone lets tone it down a bit please. We can debate this. Not just Redshirt but everyone. Lets brings facts and used reasoned arguments to support. If you personally dont want to do this, OR you cannot listen and take others' statements into consideration, just skip the topic.

 

[Vampire On Titus]

It´s funny how some people preach about the values and importance of a creators vision, that it should be maintained and not subjected to any form of censorship, that they should be free to create whatever they want without scrutiny, but when a creator has a vision about a lesbian couple, diversity, feminist themes or what not that don´t gel with these very same people they often seem to stand up and scream "AGENDA!" as loud as they can. How is that?

Censorship / Censorious behavior is demanding or pressuring an artist to change their work due to the work falling afoul of the censor / would-be censor's morality. "Change DOOM because it's satanic and harming society" "Change Tomb Raider because it's sexist and harming society."

That's not the same as fans of a series having concerns that the quality of their media is worsening. That's not the same as fans wanting higher quality writing or mechanics in their games and saying as much. People noticing Naughty Dog's overt political pandering on social media and developer talks, then worrying out loud that this may impact the quality of their games is not a moral imposition. They're not saying this must change because it's morally wrong. They're saying I'd like something different due to my taste in games. Those are very different statements. The wide-spread hypocrisy you're attempting to point out is false.

In this thread alone you have multiple people voicing their displeasure with what they see of the creative direction while still acknowledging and respecting ND's right to make the game they want.

 

[PedroPanache]

I think it's wonderful that we're going to get a major mainstream release that has strong LGBT themes. I haven't watched the trailer, as I don't care for video game hype and always want my experiences to be fresh, but my takeaway is that games should aspire to have political intent and challenge their audience. Not all games, mind you, but if you're creating content with strong narrative themes, then it's absolutely an avenue that should be explored. Regardless of what side of the fence you're on. I like the idea of playing as a girl struggling with her sexuality.

 

[MilkyJoe]

I don't think that's all they're getting. Social media allows morons and extremists to reach a large audience, and they have a tangible influence. Just look at #MeToo, which started on social media, and had some very real life consequences for people, including innocents. I remember a group of famous French women coming out with a letter that they thought this movement had gone too far. They were bullied into submission and retracted their statements. Don't act like it's just fools talking with no one listening or anything coming of it. There's real consequences, and sometimes they're unfair.


So? That means you can't talk about it anymore? People can't express their dismay with decisions companies are making?

According to the authoritarian left, that's exactly what they are suggesting. Literally what you are up against.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

Why is it that a conversation about whether forcing political correctness into a medium is hurting that medium, always turns into a discussion about whether someone is homophobic, sexist or racist? Why do we get this disconnect? They are two completely different conversations. From what I'm seeing, some people legitimately engage with the question, deciding they agree or disagree based on 'thinking', whilst others take the easy route of demonising the person (or the idea). Which of the previous types are likely to be simply virtue signalling? It's not really a difficult choice is it ...

What is contradictory about this sentence? 'I'm all for including everyone in games but I'm completely against forcing everyone into games for the sake of it.' At what point in that sentence does your brain *snap* and cause you to ignore the context?

In writing, there are some basic rules. Neil himself likes to quote one of them, which is 'simple story, complex characters.' There are many others too. 'Avoid cliques', 'always write from your own experiences' and 'do not moralise or get on your soap box'. That last one is the reason many people are getting tired of this 'forced inclusion'. We're not used to seeing that in our medium because it's 'to be avoided'.

Maybe it would serve this conversation better if we did look at it from that perspective.

 

[JimmyRustler]

Why is it that a conversation about whether forcing political correctness into a medium is hurting that medium, always turns into a discussion about whether someone is homophobic, sexist or racist? Why do we get this disconnect?

Because that is what the left does today. Basically like "If you don't agree with me, you're sexist, racist etc. and no better then the worst scumbags".

To be honest, I hate this whole conversation. Back from when I started gaming to a few years ago I didn't give a shit about the fact what race, gender or sexuality a games character has. Now thanks to this whole outrage it does bother because every time I feel like the message is being shoved down my throat - even it possibly wasn't even intended but always through to be like that.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

Because that is what the left does today. Basically like "If you don't agree with me, you're sexist, racist etc. and no better then the worst scumbags".

To be honest, I hate this whole conversation. Back from when I started gaming to a few years ago I didn't give a shit about the fact what race, gender or sexuality a games character has. Now thanks to this whole outrage it does bother because every time I feel like the message is being shoved down my throat - even it possibly wasn't even intended but always through to be like that.

I wish you'd have quoted my whole post. The context is important. We can simply avoid this conflict if we move the conversation where I've suggested. For me this is just about a basic rules of writing. Having aspired to be a writer for over 25 years, it was drilled into me over and over by aspiring writers, published writers, courses and books on writing, that one of the big things to avoid is moralising or getting on your soap box. Regardless of what it is (in this case it's women/lesbians), it's a big no no for any writer.

If you simply inject something into your writing because it's something you feel the need to promote, it's moralising and getting on your soapbox. We are hard wired to notice this because of its absence from good writing. That I believe is what people are subconsciously feeling. De-politicise the issue and discuss it from a 'good writing' perspective.

Look, I know certain people will still try to derail that conversation but at least those that are willing to engage can engage without feeling guilty.

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

Lesbianism in games isn't new. This is just a topic rn because a popular western dev is making it's main character a lesbian. However it does seem forced and to be fair very few games do lesbianism/yuri properly. So let's wait and see. Shit I'll play it I had zero interest in the previous game after the delays and story but I'll give this one a try to see if it becomes more than Uncharted zombies v2.

 

[GrayFoxRJ]

You wouldn't complain of it if it was Ellie kissing the guy. Stop fooling around. A presentation is just like any other trailer for movies or series, which casually depicit affection.

I am not a defender of agenda or any of this bullshit, but I don't like to pretend to be offended because Twitter witches and political groups are constantly forcing things into media.

It was totally fine. I'll call the shots. Stop being hypocritical in this case. You all know we are not in the 50s, and media trailers every now and then show couples kissing. So... Stop.

 

[NahaNago]

You wouldn't complain of it if it was Ellie kissing the guy. Stop fooling around. A presentation is just like any other trailer for movies or series, which casually depicit affection.

I am not a defender of agenda or any of this bullshit, but I don't like to pretend to be offended because Twitter witches and political groups are constantly forcing things into media.

It was totally fine. I'll call the shots. Stop being hypocritical in this case. You all know we are not in the 50s, and media trailers every now and then show couples kissing. So... Stop.

I was thinking about if it was a lesbian thing but then I got to thinking you rarely see folks kissing in video game trailers period. That might have nudged it towards possible agenda territory but I'm kinda meh on this one since honestly we've known for a while that she is lesbian , her being the main lead is duh, and it was always going to be brought up.

 

[Schrödinger's cat]

If my gameplay enjoyment eclipses any underlying message / agenda of its makers, I don't care.

I'd go as far to say that making your game the most fun and enjoyable it can be is a fantastic method of delivery for a message.

Having played a number of Uncharted games, Lost Legacy is the one I probably enjoyed most. I was aware the central characters were both female, The game's many elements gave me a rollicking good ride. My only criticism, if I'm really looking for it, was that Chloe's style of banter and quips felt very close to Nathan Drake's. Though, I feel that sort of inter-character banter is one of the things Uncharted games are known for - so it's hardly something I'd want the game to lack.

Games have so many elements, if the ones that matter most to me work together to make a fun game then the other factors are fine.

I want developers to have total creative freedom.
I want consumers to have the freedom to buy / not buy.

I feel I'm getting what I want.

 

[Vampire On Titus]

If you watch the video you'll see the crux of his argument isn't this kiss. He spends relatively little time on it as well he should because in itself it's a non-issue. It's basically him noticing an increasing trend toward SJW attitudes in ND -- from observing their social media and dev talks-- and worrying aloud that this may worsen the quality of their games.

He's not wrong to be concerned, there's precedent for this in other media. ND appears to be making many similar moves to Marvel Comics circa 2015 onward. Which lead to some of the worst creative hires and some of the worst writing in the company's history. Case in point, America by Gabby Rivera:

The tweets from ND's hand selected trans voice actor are not far off from Gabby's tweet. Maybe they're a talented VA and that hire makes no noticeable difference for the final product. Maybe. Personally I'd even bet that's the case, but it's not illegitimate to express concern that this is the type of person ND is hand picking. You tend to hire people you get along with who's perspective you share.

Again it's anyone's guess as to whether or not all these red flags amount to anything in the game itself. If, for all the feminist posturing, what merely happens as a result is a female lead and some lesbian characters... then who cares? Not me for sure. It's obnoxious to see ND smugly praise themselves as if they're breaking new ground with that stuff (they're not) but, eh, nobodies perfect. Still I wont fault anyone for seeing these red flags and thinking it may spell trouble for the game's quality. It has before and they're not wrong to worry.

 

[Mattyp]

You wouldn't complain of it if it was Ellie kissing the guy. Stop fooling around. A presentation is just like any other trailer for movies or series, which casually depicit affection.

I am not a defender of agenda or any of this bullshit, but I don't like to pretend to be offended because Twitter witches and political groups are constantly forcing things into media.

It was totally fine. I'll call the shots. Stop being hypocritical in this case. You all know we are not in the 50s, and media trailers every now and then show couples kissing. So... Stop.

I wouldn't complain because they wouldn't feel the need for such a long clip or shoving it into a worldwide trailer watched by millions fullstop, show we where any Naughty Dog game has done this at E3 in the past? It just wouldn't be there, the fact that it is there now solely because of the type of the relationship shows nothing but agenda driven politics being pushed for 4% of the population and as bored as I was of Naughty Dog game play already this will be one sale they won't get regardless now.

Oh but they won't notice who cares if you don't buy the game? I'm sure they won't give a shit, but just maybe if the amount of us sick of this actually do stop purchasing they might actually start giving a shit and realising all their doing is worsening their cause.

 

[ar0s]

...short of bankruptcy, why? I guess this boils down to the question whether video games are art or not (and there are argument for and against - ignore the late Ebert, he was too old of a dog for new tricks). But assuming they are art, I don't think it's ever the function for an artist to please everyone. Continuing with the movie analogy, take something like Lars von Trier's "Antichrist". I can't say I "enjoyed" it, at least in terms of entertainment, it's far from a popcorn flick. As a matter of fact, while I like to think I've seen enough horror and gore to be pretty much desensitized to everything, there where scenes that were really tough to stomach.

And yet I'm glad the director went with his vision, because watching it was a very unique and impactful experience. But suppose you're not into that? There will still be summer blockbusters, no worries. Similarly, there will be games focused purely on gameplay with very shallow (if any) story, if that's what you prefer.

The interesting point about reflecting the movie industry is we already have plenty of low budget low sales agenda games in the form of indies. AAA gaming is the equivalent of the summer blockbuster - any studio to spend Avengers money on a seriously niche film would go under. They simply would not do it.

 

[InterMusketeer]

I wouldn't complain because they wouldn't feel the need for such a long clip or shoving it into a worldwide trailer watched by millions fullstop

We'd probably be laughing about it, because it would be yet another game where a guy takes revenge because someone was killed or kidnapped or whatever.

 

[Dibils2k]

wow i never knew how dismissive they were on twitter to complaints... rubs me the wrong way

i dont really care about TLOU but in UC4 i could clearly sense a agenda, mainly with nadine... like beating 2 guys on her own (one being Drake who by now has beaten armys) lol was so in your face, but if saying that means ND dont want me to play their game then they are childs

its also hilarious to me how they use the word "inclusive" then attack people and tell them to piss off lol

 

[Toe-Knee]

They're just a studio, not a threat.

 

[Deleted member 738645]

They're just a studio, not a threat.

What are they suppose to be a threat to any way?

 

[Soleil rouge]

Naughty Dog should've just created a whole new IP to push Neil Drukmann's agenda. It feels wrong that they're taking an established, best-selling game to do it instead. The original had a strong focus on the relationship between Ellie and Joel. Now we're getting something completely different just because of that creepy bastard's lesbian fetishism.

*Mod edit: let's avoid the personal slurs going forward. Criticism is fine but let's try and have a modicum of respect for the creative's as well. Your point is fine and doesn't need the ascerbic insult at the end (BOR)