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[SLoWMoTIoN]

Today I learned that apparently children have absolutely zero free will.

Or actually people still cannot debate without completely misrepresenting an argument.

Kids can't consent to sex ask a cop.

 

[Luffytubby]

This is horrible. I remember the vitriol against Bronies a few years back. But I've not heard about them for a long time. Is that community still active or have they gone under ground?

 

[mneuro]

Today I learned that apparently children have absolutely zero free will.

Or actually people still cannot debate without completely misrepresenting an argument.

You obviously do not have children. Children seek guidance and acceptance. They seek approval and reward from their parents. Children can be easily manipulated by adults because they are doing what they think they are supposed to do to seek approval from the adult. You have implied that children can use free will to consent to sex with adults. This is disgusting.

 

[SatansReverence]

Kids can't consent to sex ask a cop.

In a legal sense, you're right. I don't remember arguing even once arguing the legality of it. Oh fucking wait...

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

In a legal sense, you're right. I don't remember arguing even once arguing the legality of it. Oh fucking wait...

Are you implying grooming?

 

[SatansReverence]

You obviously do not have children. Children seek guidance and acceptance. They seek approval and reward from their parents. Children can be easily manipulated by adults because they are doing what they think they are supposed to do to seek approval from the adult. You have implied that children can use free will to consent to sex with adults. This is disgusting.

Holy fuck, it's almost like

Now, do predatory paedophiles use this against their victims? Of course they do, they are predatory and can use force or mind games to achieve their goal and not a single one deserves defence in this situation.

I already said that?

Do you need a definition of wilful participation or something?

 

[Tapioca]

Thx. That posting of his is SO stupid. He's literally demanding punishment for thought crimes. Wtf

I never said anything about any punishment for non-acting pedophiles. In my post I clearly said I don't know what society should do with them.

 

[KevinKeene]

Great, ignore the earlier debate and let's all jump on the dumb 'children can consent' sentence of another user. Yes, that was a dumb thing to say. Now go back to what was discussed before. :/

 

[Dunki]

I never said anything about any punishment for non-acting pedophiles. In my post I clearly said I don't know what society should do with them.

How about giving them the professional help they need?

 

[Tapioca]

Holy fuck, it's almost like



I already said that?

Do you need a definition of wilful participation or something?

All pedophiles are predatory.

 

[Dude Abides]

When you're so invested in attacking gays that you defend pedos.

 

[Tapioca]

How about giving them the professional help they need?

No one is stopping them from getting professional help. They can go to a psychiatrist or psychologist.

 

[KevinKeene]

How about giving them the professional help they need?

As well as stopping public hatred towards them.

But what am I deluding myself. I'm obese and tryong my hardest to lose weight and even that doesn't make people stop giving me hateful looks and ridiculing remarks. Pedophiles have no chance in this society.

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

Great, ignore the earlier debate and let's all jump on the dumb 'children can consent' sentence of another user. Yes, that was a dumb thing to say. Now go back to what was discussed before. :/

Y..yeah.

And I thought we learned from Amir0x that it's the people who fight against something the worst are the most likely to have the skeletons in the closet *shrug*

"When I say crazy shit it just means I'm willing to discuss it and like if you are against it or freak out you are most likely Amir0x"

OH SNAP SON

When you're so invested in attacking gays that you defend pedos.

This thread is...something else.

 

[SatansReverence]

All pedophiles are predatory.

Holy fucking shit... You can say it as much as you like, won't change the fact that it isn't true.

So tell me, the guy who occasionally thinks for like, 3 seconds about a 10 year old. Shrugs it off straight away and never even considers looking at porn let alone actually touching a child, is he a predator?

Again, saying yes means everyone is a fucking predator.

No one is stopping them from getting professional help. They can go to a psychiatrist or psychologist.

Society is.

When you're so invested in attacking gays that you defend pedos.

When you can't make an argument so you rush to what ever false hot take shock you can to wave it off.

 

[SatansReverence]

"When I say crazy shit it just means I'm willing to discuss it and like if you are against it or freak out you are most likely Amir0x"

OH SNAP SON

Is the best you can come up with when your own broken logic is used against you. Amazing.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Holy fucking shit... You can say it as much as you like, won't change the fact that it isn't true.

So tell me, the guy who occasionally thinks for like, 3 seconds about a 10 year old. Shrugs it off straight away and never even considers looking at porn let alone actually touching a child, is he a predator?

Again, saying yes means everyone is a fucking predator..

Nah, false equivalence. The question is "would that guy be a pedophile?" And I would say probably not. Sometimes you get thoughts in your head and it's not your fault.

Now, let's ask the other question that you seem to be dancing around: if a person is constantly dwelling on sexual thoughts about children, is this acceptable from a moral standpoint? I'm not asking for a thought-police. I'm not asking for them to be locked up or punished. I'd like them to get treatment, but those questions are secondary.

The primary question remains: are ongoing pedophilic thoughts acceptable?

 

[Tapioca]

Today I learned that apparently children have absolutely zero free will.

Or actually people still cannot debate without completely misrepresenting an argument.

And I thought we learned from Amir0x that it's the people who fight against something the worst are the most likely to have the skeletons in the closet *shrug*

Children cannot consent to sex. They do not have the mental capacity to. I don't know why or how you would think otherwise. Pretty much every single developed country has this as a law for a reason. I have not misrepresented anything you have said.

And um, I think the people most likely to be pedophiles are the people claiming that children can consent to sex with adults. You're literally disgusting.

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

As well as stopping public hatred towards them.

But what am I deluding myself. I'm obese and tryong my hardest to lose weight and even that doesn't make people stop giving me hateful looks and ridiculing remarks. Pedophiles have no chance in this society.

Dude, equating yourself as a victim to other "undesirables" would work better if you didn't compare yourself to pedophiles. Specially over something as obesity, something you can change over time. You are outta shape? You keep at it. Also anybody at the gym giving you shit isn't there to better themselves and are assholes rest of world can suck it.

 

[SatansReverence]

Nah, false equivalence. The question is "would that guy be a pedophile?" And I would say probably not. Sometimes you get thoughts in your head and it's not your fault.

Still falls under a paedophile though. The severity of which can be debated.

Now, let's ask the other question that you seem to be dancing around: if a person is constantly dwelling on sexual thoughts about children,
is this acceptable from a moral standpoint?

I don't think this line of debate has even been touched beyond the OMG PEDO DEFENDER rhetoric.

Do I think it's acceptable or moral to think sexually about children? No, no I do not. The problem I'm attempting to discuss through the sound of REEEEEEEEEE is what do we do about it and what happens when we do what ever that is about it.

I'm not asking for a thought-police. I'm not asking for them to be locked up or punished. I'd like them to get treatment, but those questions are secondary.

The primary question remains: are ongoing pedophilic thoughts acceptable?

I don't believe so, I think they should seek treatment.

 

[KevinKeene]

The primary question remains: are ongoing pedophilic thoughts acceptable?

Any thoughts are acceptable. What I did to Jennifer Love Hewitt in my thoughts 2 days ago because of the 'your crush'-thread, wow, lock me up

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

Is the best you can come up with when your own broken logic is used against you. Amazing.

It's weird because I never called you a pedo, I was just questioning your posts which are very out there. The other gentlemen were. Amirox clause when?

 

[Dunki]

No one is stopping them from getting professional help. They can go to a psychiatrist or psychologist.

This is wrong The stigmatization, the villainizing etc stops them from seeking professional help. That is why you should treat this as every other mental disorder illness. Would you cme out seeking help if you are looked at it as a monster etc Again these people did not chose it. Many of them even were sexually abused as child and then developed this kind of desire for whatever reason.they are broken people. Not Monster.

They are monster if they act on it but not before.

 

[SatansReverence]

Children cannot consent to sex. They do not have the mental capacity to. I don't know why or how you would think otherwise.

It's literally in the definition of consent

consent
kənˈsɛnt/
noun

1. 1.
   permission for something to happen or agreement to do something.

If you want to argue about it being morally or legalally acceptable, fucking try that instead.

Pretty much every single developed country has this as a law for a reason.

Because as a developed society we know that children need to be protected from predators.

I have not misrepresented anything you have said.

You've done it consistently.

And um, I think the people most likely to be pedophiles are the people claiming that children can consent to sex with adults. You're literally disgusting.

*looks above*

For the absoluteness of fuckery and fuckeries sake.

Any thoughts are acceptable. What I did to Jennifer Love Hewitt in my thoughts 2 days ago because of the 'your crush'-thread, wow, lock me up

Nope, you're just a predatory rapist

 

[Tapioca]

This is the reason why society hates pedophiles. They think kids actually want to fuck them/willingly fuck them.

 

[mneuro]

It's literally in the definition of consent

consent
kənˈsɛnt/
noun

1. 1.
   permission for something to happen or agreement to do something.

If you want to argue about it being morally or legalally acceptable, fucking try that instead.




Because as a developed society we know that children need to be protected from predators.



You've done it consistently.



*looks above*

For the absoluteness of fuckery and fuckeries sake.



Nope, you're just a predatory rapist

You just literally posted that children can consent to sex with an adult. This thread needs to be closed. There is no valuable discussion that can be had at this point.

 

[SatansReverence]

This is the reason why society hates pedophiles. They think kids actually want to fuck them/willingly fuck them.

Claims doesn't misrepresent an argument > completely misrepresents an argument.

Ok, my turn. Want to change a babies diaper? Better get consent you fucking paedophile. Think the clothes you are buying for your kid would look good on them? Think again you child abusing scumlord. Want to drop your kid off at school? Fucking jail time!

You just literally posted that children can consent to sex with an adult. This thread needs to be closed. There is no valuable discussion that can be had at this point.

It probably does until posters such as yourself can actually read, understand and then engage in an argument instead of just misrepresenting it entirely.

 

[Dontero]

The vast majority of pedophiles go on living their lives, hiding in fear, because they know how pedophiles are treated by society, no matter how law-abiding they live. That's why it's so shitty to condemn them in an internet posting, because they have no means at all to defend themselves. The moment a pedophile came out and told you "I've never hurt a child and never would", you'd just ignore him and try your hardest to ruin his life

Pedophilia just like sexual orientation is behavioral thing you can change. People are not born with knowledge of vagina, BSDM, 1000year old dragons virgins and that anus can be used for sexual stuff or take pleasure in getting your face shat on.

But just like any behavioral thing it can be very very and sometimes impossible to change once you get into such thinking.
Now the thing is that Pedophilia is not accepted just like Murder is. You can't go "If i could i would fucking murder all of you in this room" and expect people to not scorn you.

So if you got onto kiddy porn train the best way to fight it is to move away from that train by doing something else instead of wallowing in your misery because that is how you change behavior. By doing something else.

28 months for peddling child pornography? That seems really light for such a serious crime. I know he is in his mid fifties, but damn.

Doesn't that depends on content ? I mean for example if this was hard porn meaning real life kids then he would get a lot more. But maybe this was 1000 year old dragon girls... There are shitload of people who watch that stuff but no normal person would categorize them as pedophiles if they beat to fantasy stuff same as people who watch movies or play games can't be prosecuted by virual murder on npc or something.

Society is.

Does society sits on chair with him when he has private talk with doctor ?

I mean if you go to your job stand up and say i masturbate 3 days a week to Jeremy Clarkson picture everybody would scorn you if not laugh at you. Society does not care about you, society is like independant animal that can't be changed by law or single person opinion/words. Society is amalgation of people opinions at large and only by changing people at large society can be changed.

 

[Dunki]

You just literally posted that children can consent to sex with an adult. This thread needs to be closed. There is no valuable discussion that can be had at this point.

What do you consider a child?

In Germany it was pretty normal in my school with 14-15 year old girls having a 21-25 year old boy friend. The thing is that even if you try to forbid it it will not help at all. Teens will often do what they want. So the best is to accepted and bring it under control. For example: that the boyfriend can sleep at their place for a certain amount of days in the eek (weekend etc) This way you not only give him the feeling of acceptance so he would not do anything bad and secondly you can control their sexlive a bit more. Give them rules but also benefits.

So if we are talking about 14-16 year olds yes they can consent. If we are talking about 12 and under no they can not or better should not.

 

[Tapioca]

^Incapable of engaging in a debate.

There is no debate to be had here. You think children can consent to sex with adults, the rest of civilized society does not.

 

[Dunki]

Pedophilia just like sexual orientation is behavioral thing you can change. People are not born with knowledge of vagina, BSDM, 1000year old dragons virgins and that anus can be used for sexual stuff or take pleasure in getting your face shat on.

But just like any behavioral thing it can be very very and sometimes impossible to change once you get into such thinking.
Now the thing is that Pedophilia is not accepted just like Murder is. You can't go "If i could i would fucking murder all of you in this room" and expect people to not scorn you.

So if you got onto kiddy porn train the best way to fight it is to move away from that train by doing something else instead of wallowing in your misery.

If this is so easy to change. Have fun with people also trying to argue this with homosexuality. And even if this person was sexually abused a child you will never b e able just to attempt to change his pedophilia without professional help. We are not talking about teaching dogs some nie tricks with a snack as reward.

 

[mneuro]

In

What do you consider a child?

In Germany it was pretty normal in my school with 14-15 year old girls having a 21-25 year old boy friend. The thing is that even if you try to forbid it it will not help at all. Teens will often do what they want. So the best is to accepted and bring it under control. For example: that the boyfriend can sleep at their place for a certain amount of days in the eek (weekend etc) This way you not only give him the feeling of acceptance so he would not do anything bad and secondly you can control their sexlive a bit more. Give them rules but also benefits.

So if we are talking about 14-16 year olds yes they can consent. If we are talking about 12 and under no they can not or better should not.

In this discussion a child is someone under the age of consent. Age of consent is a thing for a reason.

 

[SatansReverence]

So if we are talking about 14-16 year olds yes they can consent. If we are talking about 12 and under no they can not or better should not.

Paedophiles is pretty exclusively about prepubescent what ever that age is for what ever child it is.

Fun fact, that can be as young as 7 or as old as 18. Just googled it.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Still falls under a paedophile though. The severity of which can be debated.

I don't think this line of debate has even been touched beyond the OMG PEDO DEFENDER rhetoric.

Do I think it's acceptable or moral to think sexually about children? No, no I do not. The problem I'm attempting to discuss through the sound of REEEEEEEEEE is what do we do about it and what happens when we do what ever that is about it.

I don't believe so, I think they should seek treatment.

I think we can agree on those points, or at least the fundamentals. Now, I am not going to charge in and say "well obviously this is what you do about it". What I'll say is that -- whatever else is a part of the method to deal with it, discourage it, etc -- the part that I insist on is that we should not relax our society's harsh attitude toward pedophelia at all.

The big disconnect for me is that the "way to deal with it" is already available to pedophiles just like anyone else suffering from a harmful (yes, harmful, in spite of what the DSM-V may say) deviancy. Just like a person suffering from suicidal or murderous thoughts is ultimately responsible for how they choose to handle it. They might not be "to blame" for those thoughts, and that isn't the goal here. Blame and responsibility are actually two different things. A person who has ongoing pedophilic thoughts is still responsible for whether or not they'll reach out for help. They are not "to blame" for simply having these thoughts; they are only "to blame" when they are presented with opportunities to course-correct and yet they choose not to (for whatever reason).

If I'm understanding what some of the posters are saying in here is that we should "have sympathy, not make them out to be monsters, and the end result will hopefully be more pedophiles are willing to reach out for professional help". I can understand that mentality, but I am going to repeat myself: loosening or normalizing any facet of pedophelia runs the risk of making it seem acceptable to some people.

And these "some people" are mentally ill, according to your constant reminders. If the person is mentally ill already, what makes you think that a tolerant and loose standard towards pedophilic urges will make that mentally ill person think "gee, society sure is being tolerant of me and it has made me realize that I really have something wrong with me. I should go get help"? As a matter of comparison, can you show me clinical data in handling schizophrenics or those with bipolar disorder with "tolerance" and how that helped them? "Oh, the doctors let me live in my delusions for a while, but then I realized they were ironically agreeing with me. Hah! Got me, Doctors. It finally helped me accept that I'm schizophrenic."

This pie-in-the-sky view of how mental illnesses are handled is simply not rooted in reality. You are literally taking the absolute best-case scenario here and extrapolating it across the board. "If only we didn't make them out to be monsters, then so many more of them would come forward and it would be worth the risk!" I mean, really? First of all, how many more of them would come forward? I'm interested in hearing that if you can manage it.

But no, it's not "worth the risk". Pedophelia should always be viewed as monstrous because then -- when the person is alone with their own thoughts and their own devices -- they will at least be ingrained with the sense that society cannot tolerate the sort of ongoing thoughts they are entertaining. When their own brain has failed them because it doesn't scream out this is deviant, the voice of society still has a chance of convincing them to pursue help or at least avoid the behavior.

The victims here are the children. Their safety takes priority, and then those with the mental illness can be addressed in a manner that keeps the risk to children at an absolute minimum.

 

[SatansReverence]

There is no debate to be had here. You think children can consent to sex with adults, the rest of civilized society does not.

Going in circles. Already told you by the definition of the word they can.

Are you ever going to disconnect the "legal" definition of sexual consent and the actual mental state of consent?

 

[Dunki]

Paedophiles is pretty exclusively about prepubescent what ever that age is for what ever child it is.

Fun fact, that can be as young as 7 or as old as 18. Just googled it.

In professional terms this also can go to babies but in society people will be called pedophiles when they thinking a 16 year is hot.

 

[SatansReverence]

I think we can agree on those points, or at least the fundamentals. Now, I am not going to charge in and say "well obviously this is what you do about it". What I'll say is that -- whatever else is a part of the method to deal with it, discourage it, etc -- the part that I insist on is that we should not relax our society's harsh attitude toward pedophelia at all.

It is indeed an extremely hard problem to tackle. On the one hand we cannot allow it to be normalised but on the other hand pushing it so far underground is what creates so many victims.

The big disconnect for me is that the "way to deal with it" is already available to pedophiles just like anyone else suffering from a harmful (yes, harmful, in spite of what the DSM-V may say) deviancy. Just like a person suffering from suicidal or murderous thoughts is ultimately responsible for how they choose to handle it. They might not be "to blame" for those thoughts, and that isn't the goal here. Blame and responsibility are actually two different things. A person who has ongoing pedophilic thoughts is still responsible for whether or not they'll reach out for help. They are not "to blame" for simply having these thoughts; they are only "to blame" when they are presented with opportunities to course-correct and yet they choose not to (for whatever reason).

Eloquently put.

If I'm understanding what some of the posters are saying in here is that we should "have sympathy, not make them out to be monsters, and the end result will hopefully be more pedophiles are willing to reach out for professional help". I can understand that mentality, but I am going to repeat myself: loosening or normalizing any facet of pedophelia runs the risk of making it seem acceptable to some people.

The problem that I see is we are currently {here} where its highly stigmatised. No one would want to come out of the closest so to speak. But there is a very real and large underground black market so to speak (60,000 images? Fuck me I don't even have 6 porno pics on my computer). Some people want to be {there} where people can admit freely they have that problem and seek help with support from families and friends etc.

The problem lies in the vast expanse between {here} and {there}. The moment you start moving to {there}, all of the problems that are {here} will get worse long before they get better.

And these "some people" are mentally ill, according to your constant reminders. If the person is mentally ill already, what makes you think that a tolerant and loose standard towards pedophilic urges will make that mentally ill person think "gee, society sure is being tolerant of me and it has made me realize that I really have something wrong with me. I should go get help"? As a matter of comparison, can you show me clinical data in handling schizophrenics or those with bipolar disorder with "tolerance" and how that helped them? "Oh, the doctors let me live in my delusions for a while, but then I realized they were ironically agreeing with me. Hah! Got me, Doctors. It finally helped me accept that I'm schizophrenic."

This pie-in-the-sky view of how mental illnesses are handled is simply not rooted in reality. You are literally taking the absolute best-case scenario here and extrapolating it across the board. "If only we didn't make them out to be monsters, then so many more of them would come forward and it would be worth the risk!" I mean, really? First of all, how many more of them would come forward? I'm interested in hearing that if you can manage it.

It certainly is pie in the sky. It's going to be an extremely complex problem to solve.

As for numbers, nothing concrete and I'm sure you'd understand just how difficult it would be to get numbers but according to the article KevinKeene is likely a significant portion of the population relative to other non normal sexual orientations.

The victims here are the children. Their safety takes priority, and then those with the mental illness can be addressed in a manner that keeps the risk to children at an absolute minimum.

Agreed 100%

In professional terms this also can go to babies but in society people will be called pedophiles when they thinking a 16 year is hot.

I was trying to keep it inside a more standard range of deviation outside of fringe cases.

And if 16 is Paedophile territory, the majority of 1st world countries are pro pedo.

 

[Sakura]

28 months for peddling child pornography? That seems really light for such a serious crime. I know he is in his mid fifties, but damn.

If he didn't actually go out and hurt any kids I don't see why he should get life in prison. As it is he is already branded as a sex offender or whatever and I doubt he will ever be able to get any real work again.

 

[SatansReverence]

If he didn't actually go out and hurt any kids I don't see why he should get life in prison. As it is he is already branded as a sex offender or whatever and I doubt he will ever be able to get any real work again.

Consuming child pornography creates a demand for child pornograpy. While not exactly direct it is definitely close enough to directly abusing children.

 

[SatansReverence]

Does society sits on chair with him when he has private talk with doctor ?

I mean if you go to your job stand up and say i masturbate 3 days a week to Jeremy Clarkson picture everybody would scorn you if not laugh at you. Society does not care about you, society is like independant animal that can't be changed by law or single person opinion/words. Society is amalgation of people opinions at large and only by changing people at large society can be changed.

Only just saw this post.

Again I can draw a parallel to homosexuality. It was and for some still is extremely hard to come out of the closest and announce that you're gay or lesbian and it's 2018. Harder still if you're a transexual.

Perhaps you could read over dundundun's post and share your thoughts.

 

[Dontero]

If this is so easy to change. Have fun with people also trying to argue this with homosexuality. And even if this person was sexually abused a child you will never be able just to attempt to change his pedophilia without professional help.

You do realize that you first say it is impossible and then you use event in life of person that changed their sexual behavior ? Logic and science both say sexuality is not closed box. Most of people are straight because biology gave as slight nudge towards straight sex with biggest being "sex makes children" and sprinkled it a bit with pheromones (being the weak factor).

If you would be born on island that has only men and your whole life you would see men fucking each other you would do it to and you would not find it anything wrong or out of order.

But i agree with you psychos are the best way to change behavior.
Problem here is that there is idiotic non scientific dogma that people sexuality is born-in and can't be changed.
Which means by definition if someone is atracted to children he also can't be changed thus professionals WILL NOT HELP HIM/HER.

Only just saw this post.

Again I can draw a parallel to homosexuality. It was and for some still is extremely hard to come out of the closest and announce that you're gay or lesbian and it's 2018. Harder still if you're a transexual.

Perhaps you could read over dundundun's post and share your thoughts.

Only reason why people do this is because society is changing. People have now internet and porn free at their disposal. People talk with each other a lot more and care much less about society opinion at large.

100 year ago if you didn't fuck missionary you would be parriah of society. Now even if you say you would fuck 200 pound MILF because that is your kink most of people would laugh but they would think on their own kinks thinking "this actually is pretty stale".

Then more people have access to other people and free porn the faster changes in sexual orientations and various kinks.
For example just 10 years ago cuckold was basically slur and something tragic, these days you can't fucking find any japanese erotic novels/manga/games without this shit.

Did biology change in past 10 years ? Did evolution rapidly changed japanese DNA so the are now happy that their waifus are getting fucked by strangers ? Or maybe it is another confirmation that our sexuality is just behavior you learn not something you are born with.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

It is indeed an extremely hard problem to tackle. On the one hand we cannot allow it to be normalised but on the other hand pushing it so far underground is what creates so many victims.

I know you believe what you are saying and you don't mean ill by it, but I am going to call you out and ask you to please demonstrate that "pushing it so far underground is what creates so many victims". How so, and to what degree? I assume you mean that society's harsh stance is pushing it underground? I think you're missing something important: pedophiles are often victims of pedophelia themselves. It is often a generational thing. As kids, we were lied to: it's not "stranger danger", it's "extended family member danger" when it comes to this stuff because sadly the vast majority of abusers are the kid's own parents, grandparents, close and trusted family friend, etc. They keep the abuse secret (out of shame, out of fear of "breaking up Mommy and Daddy", and often because they are told to by the abuser), and then later in life they become abusers themselves.

So no, I completely disagree with you that vilifying pedophelia is "pushing it so far underground [... and ...] is what creates so many victims". Rape and molestation and the associated shame is what pushes it underground and creates so many victims. The possibility that society's stance might drive some underground is a rounding error in comparison

The problem that I see is we are currently {here} where its highly stigmatised. No one would want to come out of the closest so to speak. But there is a very real and large underground black market so to speak (60,000 images? Fuck me I don't even have 6 porno pics on my computer). Some people want to be {there} where people can admit freely they have that problem and seek help with support from families and friends etc.

The problem lies in the vast expanse between {here} and {there}. The moment you start moving to {there}, all of the problems that are {here} will get worse long before they get better.

It shouldn't be available at all. But since pedophiles -- enough of them to make a black market possible and profitable -- are actually not getting help and are instead indulging in their deviance, a black market exists. I cannot comprehend how tweaking society's stigma is going to move that needle in any meaningful way. Once again, you are being highly optimistic and I would like to see evidence that stigmatizing it = driving it underground and creating more victims.

Also, setting aside the real children who are raped and exchanged like slaves in order to produce the pornographic content in the first place, one of the reasons why this stuff is hoarded is because it is valuable. Disgusting to think about, but a not-zero number of the people downloading the porn are also distributing it, selling it, and sharing it with others in their "circle". It is called "child sex ring" for a reason because it becomes a closed group of trusted individuals who are willing to peddle in this sin.

This is a dark side of the big busts where they find 10s of thousands of images. More likely than not, the person was involved in producing the content or at least trading and selling it. Hardly just a "mental illness". These pedophiles know that there are FBI agents lying in wait yet they'll still go seek it out.

It certainly is pie in the sky. It's going to be an extremely complex problem to solve.

As for numbers, nothing concrete and I'm sure you'd understand just how difficult it would be to get numbers but according to the article KevinKeene is likely a significant portion of the population relative to other non normal sexual orientations.

In the meanwhile, until we have more data, I will continue to take the side of the children and any people who bravely acknowledge (doesn't have to be public; a professional therapist will do) their deviancy and seeks to address it. I will not take the side of "friendly, well-meaning, down-on-their-luck pedophiles"; I freely admit they exist, but I question whether they exist in such high numbers that the whole lot deserves such sympathy and "understanding" from society.

 

[Dunki]

If he didn't actually go out and hurt any kids I don't see why he should get life in prison. As it is he is already branded as a sex offender or whatever and I doubt he will ever be able to get any real work again.

Yeah this is not something I will agree on. The moment you act on it and acting is also watching real children. This person was hurting a child in some form or was watching a child getting hurt. If he even shared this it would be much worse. My empathy ends with people acting on it including watching real child porn. And I am not talking about some 13-14 year olds getting naked on stickam video from 2000 or so. I am talking of actual intercourse with a child on video. Then this should be dealt with like it was actual sexual abuse IMO

 

[Dunki]

You do realize that you first say it is impossible and then you use event in life of person that changed their sexual behavior ? Logic and science both say sexuality is not closed box. Most of people are straight because biology gave as slight nudge towards straight sex with biggest being "sex makes children" and sprinkled it a bit with pheromones (being the weak factor).

If you would be born on island that has only men and your whole life you would see men fucking each other you would do it to and you would not find it anything wrong or out of order.

But i agree with you psychos are the best way to change behavior.
Problem here is that there is idiotic non scientific dogma that people sexuality is born-in and can't be changed.
Which means by definition if someone is atracted to children he also can't be changed thus professionals WILL NOT HELP HIM/HER.

With enough force you can change everything. You can also break a mind of a person to accept that he/she is nt gay anymore. A good example would be left hander being forced to become a right hander. It works for sure but it is forced in sometimes cruel and horrible ways. I do not think this is the right thing to do. the best thing IMO is to make people cope and realize what they have, why they have it and why they never should act on it and also they need to understand that they can get help to get through life without becoming a "monster"

 

[Sakura]

Consuming child pornography creates a demand for child pornograpy. While not exactly direct it is definitely close enough to directly abusing children.

Eh, obviously it is wrong. Which is why he is getting over two years jail time and will also have to deal with being branded as a sex offender for the rest of his life. I don't really understand why that isn't enough. What is gained by sentencing him to life in prison?

 

[mneuro]

Eh, obviously it is wrong. Which is why he is getting over two years jail time and will also have to deal with being branded as a sex offender for the rest of his life. I don't really understand why that isn't enough. What is gained by sentencing him to life in prison?

Crimes that hurt children should result in the most severe penalties.

 

[KevinKeene]

There are currently several unrelated discussions going on in this thread anf conflating them is what keeps results being had:

Debate #1: Criminal pedophiles

Debate #2: Non-offending pedophiles

Debate #3: Can children consent?

Debate #3 is a deeply philosophical debate that can't be had in public, it's out of the question. It will, as of now, never lead anywhere. It should stop now. Children can de facto not consent, the end.

Debate #1 is something nobody would disagree with. Those who do crime need to be punished. The problem is: way to many people are incapable of discern debate #2 and debate #3. For those people the word 'pedophile' is synonymous for 'criminal'.

As long as that remains, discussion honestly makes no sense. People need to stop equating pedophiles and criminals.

i freely admit they exist, but I question whether they exist in such high numbers that the whole lot deserves such sympathy and "understanding" from society.

I mean, compare how often you hear about a pedophile being arrested per year (a couple of times?) with the numbers in the linked BBC-article. In short: Your deduction makes no sense.

 

[KevinKeene]

Crimes that hurt children should result in the most severe penalties.

No they shouldn't. Hurting a child is no worse than hurting anyone. And we don't punish people to satiate feelings of revenge, we punish them to resocialize them.

Seriously, the 'won't somebody think of the children!' crowd is the worst. Naking emotional appeals to justify their bloodlust :/

 

[SatansReverence]

I know you believe what you are saying and you don't mean ill by it, but I am going to call you out and ask you to please demonstrate that "pushing it so far underground is what creates so many victims". I assume you refer to society's harsh stance pushing it underground? I think you're mising something important: pedophiles are often victims of pedophelia themselves. It is often a generational thing. As kids, we were lied to: it's not "stranger danger", it's "extended family member danger" when it comes to this stuff because sadly the vast majority of abusers are the kid's own parents, grandparents, close and trusted family friend, etc. They keep the abuse secret (out of shame, out of fear of "breaking up Mommy and Daddy", and often because they are told to by the abuser), and then later in life they become abusers themselves.

We are arguing the same point in a different way I believe though I've not made much comment on the reasons behind creating paedophiles beyond it not being a choice and it merely being a sexual orientation.

So no, I completely disagree with you that vilifying pedophelia is "pushing it so far underground [... and ...] is what creates so many victims". Rape and molestation and the associated shame is what pushes it underground and creates so many victims. The possibility that society's stance might drive some underground is a rounding error in comparison

I was more referring to child sex and pornography trafficking. Should have been more clear on that.

It shouldn't be available at all. But since pedophiles -- enough of them to make a black market possible and profitable -- are actually not getting help and are instead indulging in their deviance, a black market exists. I cannot comprehend how tweaking society's stigma is going to move that needle in any meaningful way. Once again, you are being highly optimistic and I would like to see evidence that stigmatizing it = driving it underground and creating more victims.

We've seen it in recent history regarding homosexuality. The difference being that there are very real consequences and victims this time.

And yes, the very knowledge of it's existence is sickening. I'm glad I'm not the law enforcement tasked with sifting through the evidence of cases involving it.

 

[SatansReverence]

Eh, obviously it is wrong. Which is why he is getting over two years jail time and will also have to deal with being branded as a sex offender for the rest of his life. I don't really understand why that isn't enough. What is gained by sentencing him to life in prison?

It's a stronger deterrent. Which leads to less likely to consume. Which leads to less likely to produce.

No they shouldn't. Hurting a child is no worse than hurting anyone. And we don't punish people to satiate feelings of revenge, we punish them to resocialize them.

Seriously, the 'won't somebody think of the children!' crowd is the worst. Naking emotional appeals to justify their bloodlust :/

Cannot agree here. Children are significantly more vulnerable than adults and more easily influenced with longer lasting and significantly more severe damages. We as animals are quite literally coded to protect young ones and as a society we've extended that beyond our own offspring.