RoyBrown7777
Member
Sure man I'll just shut my mouth for the next decade until the entire industry is pay to win with packs and I don't play games anymore. Sounds like an awesome future.
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Australian investigation finds loot boxes are "psychologically akin to gambling".
- Thread starter IbizaPocholo
- Start date
Sure man I'll just shut my mouth for the next decade until the entire industry is pay to win with packs and I don't play games anymore. Sounds like an awesome future.
Grandmaster Hash
Banned
also with cards you can always just buy whatever specific card you want from a re-seller which is what most people do rather than with lootboxes where you have no option to buy what you want outright
RoyBrown7777
Member
Fifa has everything to do with kids.
Here's an idea - send some feedback to the people who made the game and tell them you won't buy it anymore and will tell all your friends not to buy it either.
You are really confusing the issue here as to the discussion of why it should or shouldn't be outlawed. The study found "lootboxes are akin to gambling" not "lootboxes are ruining RoyBrown7777's gaming experience".
The fact that you would rather see large reaching consumer policy enacted because you can't get your favorite flavor of ice cream just the way you want it instead of shopping around for another ice cream parlor is frightening and this is how we end up with stupid laws.
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Grandmaster Hash
Banned
go live under a lawless anarchistic state then if you don't want the big bad government telling you what to do. I bet you think children should be allowed to smoke and drink too because you can control their habits can't you?
Yep, there are only two options. Govt tells you exactly and everything to do, or lawless anarchistic state. Damn, you hit the nail on the head with that one. Tell me, which party do you vote for? The good guys or the bad ones?
BANGS
Banned
Shut your mouth and speak with your wallet...
If the government told my children they could smoke and drink, I can tell them otherwise. I don't need a nanny, and if I did I'd pay for one with my own money...
Also in what universe is smoking and drinking in any way relatable to my kids spending their allowance on what they deem worthy? Who are you to judge? It's a fucking video game, get off your high horse...
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This thread is unbelievable. This is how you know we're all getting way too old for this shit.
Turn the clock back 25 years and I wonder if the same people spouting "but this will turn our children in gamblers" will be telling us Mortal Kombat should be pulled from shelves. The government should force Midway to recall all the games!
Jeezus. It's like you guys don't even want to have a choice anymore. I get lootboxes ruined gaming, but this is the wrong way to fight this battle.
If the inclusion of blood RUINED fighting games or some way or how, would you insist a ban of blood in gaming in general? Don't you see how that might be a little short-sighted? Hasn't anyone ever heard of the Monkey's Paw story? Or at least seen the Simpsons parody...?
Turn the clock back 25 years and I wonder if the same people spouting "but this will turn our children in gamblers" will be telling us Mortal Kombat should be pulled from shelves. The government should force Midway to recall all the games!
Jeezus. It's like you guys don't even want to have a choice anymore. I get lootboxes ruined gaming, but this is the wrong way to fight this battle.
If the inclusion of blood RUINED fighting games or some way or how, would you insist a ban of blood in gaming in general? Don't you see how that might be a little short-sighted? Hasn't anyone ever heard of the Monkey's Paw story? Or at least seen the Simpsons parody...?
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kingwingin
Member
goverment really needs to step back and not get involved.
how is this an issue when kids dont have credit cards?
how is this an issue when kids dont have credit cards?
Grandmaster Hash
Banned
yeah because all kids listen to their parents. What if they want to spend their allowance on a pack of fags or a pint? Is that OK with you?
Grandmaster Hash
Banned
Mortal Kombat isn't actual murder, lootboxes are actual gambling.
RoyBrown7777
Member
Why are you so terrified of regulation? Not all regulation is bad. Australia just had a royal commission on banks which brought about a lot of very good changes. It's now having a Royal commission in regards to elderly abuse in retirement villages and disabled care facilities which is long overdue. Today I listened to a story about a 7 year old girl who was locked in a closet until she died in a disabled centre, it's not an isolated case. Free markets don't always just magically fix themselves because some magical hive mind comes over people and every stops buying something.
Whats your solution to the problem seeing as you claim to be a genius in every thread you visit and love using the worlds dumbest fucking family the Simpson's as some sort of awesome philosophical guide.
The same Australians who signed on mass petitions to bring an R18+ rating into our country only just recently because they wanted blood in gaming are fighting against loot boxes. Your example is very poor.
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BANGS
Banned
Yeah because all kids follow the law... kids don't smoke weed or drink ever... lmfao gofoh with your non-logic...
It's ok with me the government doesn't restrict what they can buy, as I am here to restrict what they buy until they're 18. I've already made that clear...
That's a good point, I appreciate you taking the time to debate this for real.
My concern is that whether or not it is as real as can be, the end result is that, in my country, 535 out-of-touch top 5%'ers in terms of wealth and status and income are going to set a precedent that they know what gamers want and what is best for us.
On this issue, they HAPPEN to coincide with what gamers want. Lootboxes bad for gamers and bad for children, it's just a coincidence. If they wanted to ban lootboxes on the grounds that they are a shitty gameplay mechanic, I'd happily support it.
Now, on the point that it is, in actual life, gambling - I agree it is not in the best interest of impressionable minds being exposed to the risk/reward dice roll system that are lootboxes, but parents should be and can control any child's finances. In that way, I think it is an overreach, but admittedly, I'm not a parent, and in the end, I suppose we all have to compromise. Marking all games with excessive blood and gore as rated "M" seemed to work out in the end. I guess. Not sure what it did other than quiet the issue down.
I'm willing to see it from a concerned parents' perspective, I do NOT see it from a rabid gamer's perspective.
Edit: Roxy - as to your last post, please see this one as a response.
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So since it's "Just a Fucking Video Game", even if it has gambling elements, Make sure you introduce your kids to those gambling VLTs I see in every goddam bar. After all, they're "just" video games, with gambling elements.
BANGS
Banned
Sorry but I'm not nearly as scared of gambling as you all pretend to be. My brother and I played poker and blackjack all the time as kids, and I rarely even buy a lottery ticket these days. I also used to buy pokemon cards and those capsule toys at the supermarket. I didn't become addicted to gambling because I'm not an overprivileged idiot and neither are my kids...
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The difference is that in loot-based games, getting random loot is part of the gameplay loop. In World of Warcraft I run old dungeons and raids every week because I hope to get that specific transmog or mount I've been looking for. In the process, I'm actually playing the game and having fun. If they loaded those transmogs or mounts into lootcrates that I could buy for $2, I would not actually be playing the game to get them. I would not feel like I earned them. I might even rerun contemporary dungeons or raids multiple times in the hopes of getting items that allow me to run higher level content. Again, the focus being on the fact that I worked to earn those items.
I get the feeling that your love of gacha games is skewing your opinions quite a bit. If you can't see the difference between putting in effort in-game to earn items and paying real-world money for the chance of getting them without effort, then I'm not really sure how to move this conversation forwards. If you think that opening a lootbox is the same as actually playing the game, you are already very far down the lootbox rabbit hole.
Dragon_Rocks
Gold Member
How is paying for an arcade game where your skill is what matters for you to win the same as paying for something where you have no control on what you get?
BANGS
Banned
Opening lootboxes is part of the gameplay loop as well though, it's just that you don't enjoy it. That's literally the only distinction, that you don't like them...
I'm glad you think your kids have the same level of personal control you do.
If you earn lootboxes through gameplay then sure, we can maybe stretch it and say it's part of the gameplay loop. Lootboxes 'earned' through buying them is not part of the gameplay loop. Clicking a few times and entering your cc details is not gameplay by any stretch of the imagination, and it's this latter type of lootbox that publishers are most invested in. Lootboxes become obsolete if there isn't some way to monetize them.
That is completely irrelevant. You too are confusing the issue. They are not intending to ban it on the grounds that it makes games unfair and not skill based. They also don't think it matters that you have no control over it.
They want to ban it due to its "psychological effects". This matters.
Gamers have been complaining lootboxes have been ruining the skill aspect of gaming forever, and nowthey have a "mental health" platform to step on. We're not better than SJWs if we hop on this bandwagon because eventually it'll get us the result we want, but we'll be doing it with no integrity and for the wrong reasons.
If anyone in this thread actually HAS kids and is worried about their mental well being, that's a totally different matter. This thread is mostly full of rabid gamers. I don't know how it works in Austrailia but in the US, they can extrapolate the reasoning behind a law to apply to another part of law, and this has reaching implications. It's the wrong way, in my opinion, to go about winning the fight against lootboxes.
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Darkking2001
Banned
BANGS there's nothing we as a consummer can do...the fucking whales make up most of the profits when it comes to lootboxes
BANGS
Banned
I know they don't actually, but they won't learn by being sheltered, they have to be guided by their parents and have the freedom to make mistake. I don't want my kids growing up to be one of these sheltered snowflakes that can't change a tire...
You realize gambling is called gaming for a reason right? Buying loot boxes is part of gaming, it's just not a part we find interesting...
Bullshit. You're right that there is nothing you can do to get rid of loot boxes completely, because there are other people who like to buy them. You're only an asshole if you want ALL games to cater to you only. But you certainly can speak with your wallet to make sure there will always be at least some games that DO cater to you. There's a reason that not EVERY game has lootboxes today, and it's because companies know there are gamers like us that they will lose if they do that...
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Darkking2001
Banned
Mate they are spreading because of a minority few with a shitload of money spend it on this shit.....
"its not every game now so shut up" is a just an excuse....one day it will be like 90% of them.....kinda like what happened with dlc...
"its not every game now so shut up" is a just an excuse....one day it will be like 90% of them.....kinda like what happened with dlc...
Heimdall_Xtreme
Jim Ryan Fanclub's #1 Member
Was Overwatch the first game to put the Lootbox?
I Wanna EA have a great Lesson about this Lootbox For Star Wars game and never do it again.
I Wanna EA have a great Lesson about this Lootbox For Star Wars game and never do it again.
Okay, you understand though, you are supporting legislation whose main thesis is that this game mechanic is psychologically damaging and should be regulated - because you dislike the recent trend of DLC.
Darkking2001
Banned
I'm pointing out that trends go deeper....like it wasn't hard to understand
manfestival
Member
I am pretty blown away by the avid defense that lootboxes are getting here
It's like talking to a brick wall here.
Darkking2001
Banned
If it takes regulations, it takes regulation to get it done.
Must suck for you freedom for the sack of freedom types
Must suck for you freedom for the sack of freedom types
BANGS
Banned
Ok, so then 10% of all games will cater to you. Is that not enough? If it's not, start spending more like those people are. The free market goes where the money is, not their fault you don't have enough to support products you like...
But seriously, don't buy games with lootboxes and supports ones you like, and the market will shift that way if others do so as well. There is already so much pushback that there is no way we'll ever hit that 90% number, unless you count hoardes of trash mobile games...
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Dragon_Rocks
Gold Member
My bad, looks like I misunderstood what you said. But mental health and psychology do play a part in what people do and how it affects the society. Doing what SJW do is one thing and carefully regulating or banning something which can have adverse on society is another. If we want to go down the line of thinking that you are implying then it can be applied to other things as well like why ban drugs, let people decide if they want to do it and let them control how much they want to do rather than government putting a stop to it.
And why do people need to have kids to worry about their mental health, what is wrong in worrying about people in general whether they are kids or adults. Everyone can fall for these tactics and it will impact society as a whole.
Thanks for a substantial reply. Yes, that is exactly the stance I'm taking.
There are countries who did decriminalize drugs and it helped their population. Suddenly legalizing drugs doesn't mean everyone who isn't 24/7 high on cocaine and dead on heroin are going to run and start doing lines and shooting up.
There is nothing wrong with being concerned about kids, but this is such a small slice of the pie - it can only do more harm than good. If this is truly a mental health issue, people should be concerned about guiding their kids in life overall. If you have a propensity to gamble, it will get you whether its a video game or a casino or a poker game at your friend's house or online in a number of other ways.
Regulating video game content is the exact opposite of what everyone on this board should be for, even if it is a shitty mechanic. People are so binary and don't realize it. Either you're for regulation, or you're for lootboxes? I don't want all first-person VR games rated Ao because some study finds links that games played from that camera perspective is "psychologically akin to murdering someone in real life" or some nonsense.
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bitbydeath
Gold Member
Hopefully this gets legislated and they take a look at the mobile gaming scene next.
That’s where console games are heading if the government doesn’t step in. Sure some are happy to take advantage of being able to pay to get ahead but it’ll only ruin gaming in the long run as when you give them an inch they take a mile.
That’s where console games are heading if the government doesn’t step in. Sure some are happy to take advantage of being able to pay to get ahead but it’ll only ruin gaming in the long run as when you give them an inch they take a mile.
Ah, semantics. Lovely.
Gambling might be considered a form of gaming, but there are dedicated gambling games for that. "Gambling" in the form of purchasable lootboxes does not form part of the gameplay loop in a game like Overwatch or CSGO. You would describe those games' gameplay loops as "competitive team-based shooters where players work together to accomplish objectives", not "competitive team-based shooters where players work together to accomplish objectives and also they buy lootboxes with real money". Considering the optional (or in some cases 'optional') nature of lootboxes, I don't see how you can argue that they're part of the gameplay loop.
BANGS
Banned
I mean it really doesn't matter in the end, the people who enjoy gaming that way do so...
brian0057
Banned
Hey, Fanatical is promoting right now a bundle where you pay a certain amount of money for 3 to 6 several games and you have no idea what they are until you pay for the bundle. They could be awesome or they could be crap.
Should we go and demand Fanatical to tell us what those games are under the threat of government intervention because it might be gambling? What about those season passes? Pre-order bonuses? DLC? Pre-orders in general?
Are you absolutely certain that the money you spent pre-ordering any given game is worth the investment?
Where do you draw the line between what is gambling and what is not?
Congratulations, now you have the government making that distinction for you and they will allways go for the broadest definition possible.
Instead of a handfull of companies possibly screwing you over, now it's several governments with absolute certainty.
Kenpachii
Member
hmz only 1% to get this skin i really want it so i can make my friends jealous.
1 dollar for 1 box.
Opens 20 boxes. ( because extra free box )
Shit i am so unlucky, still don't go the skin god dam it. Now i blew 20 bucks and have nothing to show for it other then useless trash.
Fak it i will just buy another 20 boxes as i get 2 boxes for free then, i can't be unlucky twice.
Opens 20 boxes ( still nothing )
Again unlucky, now i already spend 40 bucks on it. god dam it, why am i so unlucky.
100 bucks later, still got nothing. But now i wasted 100 bucks and got nothing to show for it, i need to keep going now as i atleast need to have the skin to validate my money spending.
And tada you got your typical gambling addition right there.
I saw people open 100's of boxes, spend's 10k euro's on random chances in games to get something out of it and get nothing as result and couldn't stop because they wouldn't have anything to show for it. those trash junk you get out of it has zero mental value to these people and can be just seen as trash entirely.
You have zero idea on how damaging gambling can be, and what a shit hole it can become. I was in a guild on ragnarok online that was decked out with girls that blew there whole paychecks on the game just to get a chance to get enchants on there weapons and skins that most of the time didn't happen until they plumped in 1000's of bucks.
I specifically remembered this girl always having the " rare skin new head gear" and asked at some point she needed some ingame money if i could sell some ingame items she had on her account. She gave me 150 items that you only get 1 of out of 100 buck box. I was honestly shocked and then you heard her brother on the background yelling at her when he would get his 1500 bucks back she loaned the day before the new head gear came out. ( guess where that money went ).
After spending insane amounts of money on those accounts, they all got banned soon after because EU law was not something in the best interest for the company so they ended up banning all EU people that played the game which resulted in massive anger to the point of some girls actually where going the extra step try to find out where these people lived in real life. Because they felt like there whole world was destroyed and the only thing they had left was pure anger, because there whole life got destroyed as they lived through the game.
Gambling and online gaming addictions are real. Some people live in games as its there real life and getting the best and shiny hat can put them in the hole massively when company's go the extra mile in trying to exploit them.
I think random chance items / skins or whatever in games should never be allowed. They should sell you the item straight away or not at all.
You want that skin? thats 25 bucks and not 1% chance on a drop.
I even loaned at some point to a guy i know 200 bucks, just to realize he gambled it away on a god dam skin that he never got. I didn't asked the money back and just said it was a gift to not damage our friendship as the dude as already in a hell hole of dept in general and i would never get it back anyway.
And these people where not kids they where 30-40 year olds, imagine a kid that works at a god dam store for barely any money and blows it in 10 seconds on boxes and get nothing out of it. Just to work more so he blows it again in order for the hope to get more lucky next time and fixes the damage he caused mentally towards himself.
Real money gambling for rewards in a game is ridiculous and unacceptable on any level and that's exactly what they do.
RoyBrown7777
Member
Ok, so then 10% of all games will cater to you. Is that not enough? If it's not, start spending more like those people are. The free market goes where the money is, not their fault you don't have enough to support products you like...
But seriously, don't buy games with lootboxes and supports ones you like, and the market will shift that way if others do so as well. There is already so much pushback that there is no way we'll ever hit that 90% number, unless you count hoardes of trash mobile games...
That meme is utter shite. I don't buy loot boxes but when they infest a game I have played for 20 years and whale's start buying them and twitchtv streamers spend $5k for the views and EA makes $700 million a year on the shit it's plagued a game I loved and ruined it, not just the online but the offline. Even games I loved like Gran Turismo started making it more of a grind to unlock cars but easy to buy them, so did Forza. It doesn't matter at this point if I don't buy them if other people dump thousands of dollars on the shit meaning my vote doesn't count. Anyone defending this shit is a contrarian shill with their foot in their mouth and their head up their asshole.
Even less than 1% of games is enough for anyone. It's not the point though. I wanted Battlefront 2 and the entire game was built around a shit system the first one didn't have. I didn't buy it. Fifa has gone to shit but Love football as much as I love gaming.
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sol_bad
Member
I'm pretty happy to lose my integrity if it gets the desired results. After all, the multi billion dollar corporations have no integrity for implementing loot boxes in the first place.
I don't have kids yet but within the next 2 years I will. IF they become interested in video games I don't want them to be infected by loot boxes, I would prefer them to accomplish things through skill and dedication. The simple introduction of loot boxes lowers the satisfaction of personal skill.
I know many games involve grinding but there is generally a reward involved, new abilities, new items, new spells etc, something to work towards. Loot box grinding is more like a penalty system, it pushes grinding to an insane degree to try and push you to buying loot boxes. Always remember that that LOTR game had to be rebalanced once loot boxes were removed to make it enjoyable.
I imagine peer pressure from my kids friends real life scenarios is going to be tough enough to deal with. I grew up with video games but there was never any peer pressure related issues involving them as I grew up. We played Quake Deathmatch in high school, it was all about improving your skill, no pressure to get new items and guns. Hearing all these stories about kids and Fortnite peer pressure is a bit crazy for me.
If companies are hiring psychologists to work out the best way to make people reach for their money, this should at least be looked in to. Games are meant go be fun, not to psychologically manipulate people in to spending more money. IF these companies are looking for ways to make people spend more money rather than make their games fun, maybe they should by in a different industry.
RoyBrown7777
Member
Cool, good for you. Just don't let them play any sports games which gives them tons of free shitty packs so they can nag you for it. Then when they are older you can watch them struggle and ask you for money to pump through a poker machine.
Is Fanatical's bundle designed with the goal of getting you hooked and to keep you coming back for more? Is it tightly integrated into a specific game? Mystery game bundles are not my cup of tea, but they're not comparable to loot boxes. I highly doubt someone is blowing 100s of dollars on them.
With a preorder, are you also gambling your money with no idea of what you'll get in a system rigged to give you more trash than good items? No, you have a very good idea of precisely what game you're getting. You're handing over money for the promise of a future product, not handing over money for the possibility of maybe getting a game on release day.
Would you like to compare preordering the next BMW to lootboxes as well? Because that's about how nonsensical your argument is.
ea what people do. They even buy a 10k Spacestation that if it is destroyed in the game it is destroyed for real. This is really not an argument against lootboxes and for these mysteryboxes
Gamble:
1. to play at any game of chance for money or other stakes.
2. to stake or risk money, or anything of value, on the outcome of something involving chance
Paying for loot boxes = staking or risking money (the thing of value) on the chance of getting a desired outcome (that item you really really want).
Maybe you can say that it doesn't qualify for the first definition because you're not really "playing" by entering your credit card info.. you're "purchasing".
Then again, if the loot box is free, what is that thing of value you staked or risked to get the box? Time, effort?
My head hurts.
1. to play at any game of chance for money or other stakes.
2. to stake or risk money, or anything of value, on the outcome of something involving chance
Paying for loot boxes = staking or risking money (the thing of value) on the chance of getting a desired outcome (that item you really really want).
Maybe you can say that it doesn't qualify for the first definition because you're not really "playing" by entering your credit card info.. you're "purchasing".
Then again, if the loot box is free, what is that thing of value you staked or risked to get the box? Time, effort?
My head hurts.
RoyBrown7777
Member
Not sure but those boxes are all filled with pride and accomplishment.
brian0057
Banned
Of course it's nonsensical to compare lootboxes to pre-ordering cars or anything eles. The problem is now you have the government making that distinction, not the individual.
Also, unless you've actually test driven, somehow, that BMW you just pre-ordered, how do you know with absolute certainty that you're getting what you paid for?
As you said "You're handing over money for the promise of a future product." Everyone was extremely hyped for No Man's Sky until it dropped, then people who pre-ordered started demanding refunds when the game turned out to be a steaming pile of manure. Does that counts as gambling? You forked money in advance for something you had no idea of the quality or if you even liked it, just like trading cards.
What about movies? If the movie sucks, are you gonna burn down the theater in protest because you "gambled" your money in something you had no clue if it would be worth it?
I'm still honestly baffled that people are still trying to punish EA, something the free market already did, by trusting the only entity more evil and corrupt than they are to interpret something as nebulous as "gambling", something that shouldn't be illegal, by the way.
stargateheaven
Member
just disable being able to purchase them. done.
even games in the old school days had random item drop. like MVC2, you'd get a random thing. Even final fantasy had rare loot drop from enemies.
loot boxes isnt gambling, but just get rid of being able to buy them.
even games in the old school days had random item drop. like MVC2, you'd get a random thing. Even final fantasy had rare loot drop from enemies.
loot boxes isnt gambling, but just get rid of being able to buy them.