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[ruvikx]

I'm noticing a tendency to lump every criticism of Dany's "turn" in the same "nooo, what have they done with my beloved slay queen?!" camp, even though it has been said many a time that that's not the issue for a lot of us. A classic example of strawman.

I don't completely agree with the title of that "foreshadowing is not character development" vid, but the criticism in the vid itself is on point and well argued.

There's seemingly two vocal camps in the naysayer group, i.e. a first camp featuring those you mentioned "Dany is muh beloved slay queen", for example youtube rants which start with "Daenerys would never have done that!" (she did, i.e. they need to square with that fact) & a second camp who're asking for "more" character development/buildup before her rampage. To them I can only suggest they're having difficulty coping with the unease & uncomfortable feeling they felt when watching Daenerys (aka someone they've seen presented as heroic & a power fantasy for 8 years) commit genocide.

She's a queen with a weapon of mass destruction, a history of temper tantrums/rash decision making & killing people for various reasons, i.e. even Jorah himself was the subject of a death threat by Daenerys when she exiled him for his "treason" (in inverted commas because he only betrayed her before he even knew what she was like as a person/leader & was thus at that point still 'loyal' to Westeros). Many viewers are translating their own incomprehension into a "this show must be shit because I don't like what I'm feeling whilst watching this". I'm also not surprised a large amount would have preferred Daenerys to be presented as a literal Darth Vader (including baddie music) before her killing spree because that's the nature of the current pop culture environment which conditioned them into being told who was evil & not figure it out themselves.

That's how I see it anyway. Some of us had been waiting for Daenerys to go nuclear for a very long time & it was long overdue.

 

[Geki-D]

I'm noticing a tendency to lump every criticism of Dany's "turn" in the same "nooo, what have they done with my beloved slay queen?!" camp, even though it has been said many a time that that's not the issue for a lot of us. A classic example of strawman.

I don't completely agree with the title of that "foreshadowing is not character development" vid, but the criticism in the vid itself is on point and well argued.

I agree. My issue isn't that she "went mad", that is justifiable going off past events. It's the level to which she did. I would have been fine with her attacking the Red Keep and torching the civilians who were human shields there. It would have been enough to establish her as being blinded by rage and would set the groundwork for Jon regretting following her seeing as the city had still surrendered, but the whole city? She blatantly aimed at innocent people and went out of her way to murder them. When was that ever established? She's always been ruthless to her enemies and has said she would destroy cities if they resisted but when have we ever gleamed the notion that she would haphazardly nuke a defenseless, acquiescence population of a city just because she's angry?

People saying "U just mad coz d'ay made yo fav char evilz" is just a way to hand wave away criticism without having to defend their position, just as "lol U mad" always is.

 

[Airbus Jr]

Pardon me but this part of conversation between Varys and the young servant have ambiguous meaning to me

Did Varys try to poison Daenerys?

Several eagle-eyed fans realized that the conversation with one of Varys' little birds, a kitchen girl called Martha, was far more sinister than it seemed. Here's how it went down:

Varys: “Nothing?”

Girl: “She won’t eat.”

Varys: “We’ll try again at supper.”

Girl: “I think they’re watching me.”

Varys: “Who?”

Girl: “Her soldiers.”

Varys: “Of course they are. That’s their job. What have I told you, Martha?”

Girl: “The bigger the risk, the bigger the reward.”

Varys: “Go on. They’ll be missing you in the kitchen.”

Was Varys trying to get danny to eat or legit he tried to poison her?

 

[ruvikx]

I agree. My issue isn't that she "went mad", that is justifiable going off past events. It's the level to which she did. I would have been fine with her attacking the Red Keep and torching the civilians who were human shields there. It would have been enough to establish her as being blinded by rage and would set the groundwork for Jon regretting following her seeing as the city had still surrendered, but the whole city? She blatantly aimed at innocent people and went out of her way to murder them. When was that ever established? She's always been ruthless to her enemies and has said she would destroy cities if they resisted but when have we ever gleamed the notion that she would haphazardly nuke a defenseless, acquiescence population of a city just because she's angry?

People saying "U just mad coz d'ay made yo fav char evilz" is just a way to hand wave away criticism without having to defend their position, just as "lol U mad" always is.

You must have missed the dozens of posts which explained exactly how & why a character like Daenerys could go nuclear & commit mass murder against civilians. Once again your own alternate scenario is tainted by bias & a rose tinted "let's make Dany better" subjective viewpoint. You wanted her to merely be ruthless towards the Red Keep & cause collateral damage? That's a different character entirely, not an angry psychotic Targaryen riding a dragon. Game of Thrones features the latter, not your own wishful thinking.

They (writer(s)) knew this character was heading down that path for years (Martin has probably known since minute one or thereabouts). I lot of people (including everyone who signed the "remake season 8 waaaaaaa" petition) remind me of Mars Attacks, specifically this scene:



"It aint happening, it aint happening!" … as Daenerys went on her GTA-style Dragon rampage. Good times.

 

[Chairman Tickles]

Pardon me but this part of conversation between Varys and the young servant have ambiguous meaning to me

Did Varys try to poison Daenerys?

Several eagle-eyed fans realized that the conversation with one of Varys' little birds, a kitchen girl called Martha, was far more sinister than it seemed. Here's how it went down:

Varys: “Nothing?”

Girl: “She won’t eat.”

Varys: “We’ll try again at supper.”

Girl: “I think they’re watching me.”

Varys: “Who?”

Girl: “Her soldiers.”

Varys: “Of course they are. That’s their job. What have I told you, Martha?”

Girl: “The bigger the risk, the bigger the reward.”

Varys: “Go on. They’ll be missing you in the kitchen.”

Was Varys trying to get danny to eat or legit he tried to poison her?

Makes sense.

 

[WinterIsComing]

Pardon me but this part of conversation between Varys and the young servant have ambiguous meaning to me

Did Varys try to poison Daenerys?

Several eagle-eyed fans realized that the conversation with one of Varys' little birds, a kitchen girl called Martha, was far more sinister than it seemed. Here's how it went down:

Varys: “Nothing?”

Girl: “She won’t eat.”

Varys: “We’ll try again at supper.”

Girl: “I think they’re watching me.”

Varys: “Who?”

Girl: “Her soldiers.”

Varys: “Of course they are. That’s their job. What have I told you, Martha?”

Girl: “The bigger the risk, the bigger the reward.”

Varys: “Go on. They’ll be missing you in the kitchen.”

Was Varys trying to get danny to eat or legit he tried to poison her?

Had this happened in one of the first 5 seasons and I wouldn't have a doubt that it was highly possible that he tried to poison her. Same goes for the Littlefinger/Faceless woman theory.
Something like that happening on season 8? Nope, not a chance, this hasn't been that kind of show for a long time.

 

[ruvikx]

Had this happened in one of the first 5 seasons and I wouldn't have a doubt that it was highly possible that he tried to poison her. Same goes for the Littlefinger/Faceless woman theory.
Something like that happening on season 8? Nope, not a chance, this hasn't been that kind of show for a long time.

Varys was a member of the small council when Robert Baratheon gave the order to have Daenerys assassinated in season 1. Poison was said to be a weapon used by women... & eunuchs. How did they attempt to kill her? With poisoned wine. Varys stayed true to his preferred method. I don't see what's out of character or unusual.

 

[Geki-D]

You must have missed the dozens of posts which explained exactly how & why a character like Daenerys could go nuclear & commit mass murder against civilians. Once again your own alternate scenario is tainted by bias & a rose tinted "let's make Dany better" subjective viewpoint. You wanted her to merely be ruthless towards the Red Keep & cause collateral damage? That's a different character entirely, not an angry psychotic Targaryen riding a dragon. Game of Thrones features the latter, not your own wishful thinking.

All I'm seeing is hand waving and "Dany killed people in the past and said harsh words therefore killing thousands of innocent people is justified". This logic doesn't doesn't follow. It's funny how people who find it illogical can produce blow by blow breakdowns of why but the people who are onboard generally just go "lol nah".

I lot of people (including everyone who signed the "remake season 8 waaaaaaa" petition) remind me of Mars Attacks, specifically this scene:


"It aint happening, it aint happening!" … as Daenerys went on her GTA-style Dragon rampage. Good times.

More hand waving, no points made. This shit is Night King weak, and that's fucking weak.

 

[ruvikx]

All I'm seeing is hand waving and "Dany killed people in the past and said harsh words therefore killing thousands of innocent people is justified". This logic doesn't doesn't follow. It's funny how people who find it illogical can produce blow by blow breakdowns of why but the people who are onboard generally just go "lol nah".


More hand waving, no points made. This shit is Night King weak, and that's fucking weak.

When Stannis torched his own daughter you could equally say "but there's no reason Stannis would do something so horrible...".

Welcome to Game of Thrones. You don't need ten episodes featuring a roadmap entitled "descent into evil" for someone to do something particularly shit. Claiming it's bad writing just smacks of denial & refusal to accept an outcome. It's like we haven't been watching the same show.

 

[Ichabod]

I read an interesting article about Arya actually dying in the dragon attack on King's Landing and was going to post it but read the comments section beforehand. 99% of the responses boiled down to "that is far too nuanced for a show with one episode left, D&D are hacks."

 

[AV]

When Stannis torched his own daughter you could equally say "but there's no reason Stannis would do something so horrible...".

It's not comparable. Stannis already used shadow magic to send a demon to assassinate his own brother. That's alongside confining his mentally ill wife to a tower, his daughter to a cell, etc. There's way more build-up to him losing his mind and turning to more and more desperate measures to win the throne at any cost, and him sacrificing his daughter, who may well be the only person he truly loves, was the logical culmination of that desperation. It's precisely why the moment is so heart wrenching and yet the burning of King's Landing is so meh to so many people.

Dany has been shown to have psychotic outbursts, sure, but never truly followed through until the 2nd to last episode of the entire show, wherein she decides to slaughter thousands of innocents needlessly. Sorry, but the massive backlash against this episode has not been for nothing. I'm not bothered if that's the way they wanted it to go (although it's still a lazy and boring ending) but they absolutely did not do enough work to set it up properly. Yes, I've seen all the posts about what she's said/done in the past. I'm rewatching the show myself and am nearly done with S3 again. It's just not nearly enough compared to a character like Stannis.

 

[WinterIsComing]

Varys was a member of the small council when Robert Baratheon gave the order to have Daenerys assassinated in season 1. Poison was said to be a weapon used by women... & eunuchs. How did they attempt to kill her? With poisoned wine. Varys stayed true to his preferred method. I don't see what's out of character or unusual.

Not out of character or unusual at all, in fact it would be very consistent. That's why I don't think D&D would do it.

 

[ruvikx]

It's not comparable. Stannis already used shadow magic to send a demon to assassinate his own brother. That's alongside confining his mentally ill wife to a tower, his daughter to a cell, etc. There's way more build-up to him losing his mind and turning to more and more desperate measures to win the throne at any cost, and him sacrificing his daughter, who may well be the only person he truly loves, was the logical culmination of that desperation. It's precisely why the moment is so heart wrenching and yet the burning of King's Landing is so meh to so many people.

Dany has been shown to have psychotic outbursts, sure, but never truly followed through until the 2nd to last episode of the entire show, wherein she decides to slaughter thousands of innocents needlessly. Sorry, but the massive backlash against this episode has not been for nothing. I'm not bothered if that's the way they wanted it to go (although it's still a lazy and boring ending) but they absolutely did not do enough work to set it up properly. Yes, I've seen all the posts about what she's said/done in the past. I'm rewatching the show myself and am nearly done with S3 again. It's just not nearly enough compared to a character like Stannis.

I wonder whether someone stood watching the RAF & US airforce aim for women & children in Dresden back in February 1945 & said "hey, aren't you supposed to be the good guys?". Not enough character build-up eh. These "not enough buildup" complaints with regards to Daenerys (in a TV show!) also don't work. This is Game of Thrones in which the Iron Throne has represented corruption & danger since... the beginning. Daenerys was the poster girl of Iron Throne "take back what is mine" aspirants. It shouldn't surprise people when such a character does something really horrific just to make a point (& terrorize the rest of Westeros into submission because she has neither the birthright nor the love of the people). I agree with this article in particular:

Game of Thrones: This is the only way Daenerys’ story could end, so stop whining about it

This article contains spoilers – frankly, IS one big spoiler – for Game of Thrones 8.5, “The Bells”. You have been warned. Okay, let’s get this straight.

www.newstatesman.com

It was clear even before it had finished airing that a lot of people hated this episode, because of its brutality, or because they think it betrayed the characters or the story. But I found it one of the most powerful, most viscerally truthful, hours of television I have ever seen. And the critics are wrong about betrayal. This was always the story the show has been telling. This is the only way it could end.

​

 

[AV]

I wonder whether someone stood watching the RAF & US airforce aim for women & children in Dresden back in February 1945 & said "hey, aren't you supposed to be the good guys?". Not enough character build-up eh. These "not enough buildup" complaints with regards to Daenerys (in a TV show!) also don't work. This is Game of Thrones in which the Iron Throne has represented corruption & danger since... the beginning. Daenerys was the poster girl of Iron Throne "take back what is mine" aspirants. It shouldn't surprise people when such a character does something really horrific just to make a point (& terrorize the rest of Westeros into submission because she has neither the birthright nor the love of the people). I agree with this article in particular:

Dresden was not a fantasy television show based on a popular fantasy novel. That's a preposterous comparison and you know it.

That article already throws credibility out of the window by its arrogant claim that the show "could not" have ended any other way and that anyone who disagrees needs to "stop whining", but beyond that, is still regurgitating the same weak arguments I've seen a thousand times already, and better yet, equates the slaughter of thousands to "lashing out". Yeah, okay. Sorry, I just don't find it smart in any way. I wasn't shocked or surprised watching it, just disappointed that they went with such a dull ending without giving it any real weight, just "I am angry and have finally snapped watch me go, I was bad guy whole time".

 

[Tesseract]

i don't like the dresden comparison, i think it was unwise of the creators to draw that parallel

it was more like hiroshima, since it was a decision to bomb the people into submission and weaponize the strength of mercy over fear of rule

dany invoked the almighty atom, that's what i saw in the white horse at the end

'i am become a name, for always roaming with a hungry heart'

 

[ruvikx]

Dresden was not a fantasy television show based on a popular fantasy novel. That's a preposterous comparison and you know it.

That article already throws credibility out of the window by its arrogant claim that the show "could not" have ended any other way and that anyone who disagrees needs to "stop whining", but beyond that, is still regurgitating the same weak arguments I've seen a thousand times already, and better yet, equates the slaughter of thousands to "lashing out". Yeah, okay. Sorry, I just don't find it smart in any way. I wasn't shocked or surprised watching it, just disappointed that they went with such a dull ending without giving it any real weight, just "I am angry and have finally snapped watch me go, I was bad guy whole time".

Dresden isn't preposterous as a comparison. neither is the (real) War of the Roses in 15th century England, nor the Thirty Years' War which ravaged a large part of Europe in the 17th century. These are all real historical events which inspired the writers in many different ways. Dany wields a weapon of mass destruction & used it to terrorize her enemy into submission, even after surrender. Was it reminiscent of WW2 firebombing? Absolutely. What's the big deal? Why the outbursts against "bad writing" from millions of "fans"?

A Queen with super-weapon prone to anger outbursts & imbued with a sense of her own destiny to rule (making everyone bend the knee to her own persona) suddenly slaughters innocents. That's not even controversial storytelling nor surprising. And I don't buy the "but give us more buildup first!" arguments either. Those viewers must not have realized the Iron Throne is the problem, likewise all those who covet it are sooner or later corrupted by absolute power. That's not controversial either.

 

[Tesseract]

it's not a mistake to dominate the battlefield with shock and awe tactics

leading people out of it without overwhelming rebellion or insurrection is a herculean task



it didn't end well for lincoln, and it probably won't end well for dany

 

[Saruhashi]

Some of the comment sections around YouTube discussions and reddit threads are straight vitriol. It almost pains me that some people literally can't even tolerate a different point of view about a TV show.

Like, honestly, whatever happened to tolerance? You can think someone is dumb as fuck and completely disagree with them while still tolerating their perspective in subjective matters.

Some of the rhetoric I see being used around the web (not here) mimics what I see in random political flame wars around the web (not here) and it just seems inappropriate. It's a TV show. People are allowed to have different opinions.

The discussion in this thread has a welcome civility that I appreciate.

Yeah, I agree with this.

I definitely have no problem with people dissecting a show or movie and showing why it's poorly done.
I enjoy watching "angry rants" so long as they are funny and at least a little self-aware.

Some of the vitriol is just way over the top. On both sides, I should add.

Yes, it's getting to the point where it is mirroring the political flame wars that we see everywhere.
With things like The Last Jedi you can even see the battle lines being drawn along those same political lines where not liking it means you're sexist and liking it means you must be one of those SJWs.

At least GoT isn't fully suffering from that yet but I think that is down to the fact that people can't decide if Daenerys going mad is "sexist" and if it is then how can they reconcile that many prominent TLJ critics are also prominent GoT critics for largely the same reasons.

I'd imagine they are stuck in no man's land between "nerds are angry that GoT has a complex female character" and "GoT's depiction of an angry woman reinforces sexist tropes".

People starting and signing petitions etc need to get a grip.
People going in too hard on the writers need to also reel it in a bit.

I would say that they got the basic bullet points right.

Arya assassinates the Night King.
Daenerys goes mad.

However the execution was poorly done.

Arya spends a good long time in the show building up to being this master assassin and then when the time comes she kind of decides to head towards the Godswood on a whim and doesn't really use any cool assassin skills or anything to get the job done. Surely it would have made more sense to have the Night King built up a lot more to the point where only a well planned and executed assassination is the way to kill him? Why not have her use her learned abilities.

In the end they seemed to tie up more of the fantasy elements like the stuff with Bran and Melisandre, The Mountain and even getting rid of 2 of the dragons in very curt and abrupt ways.

Then there's mild annoyances like the haunting image of the Dothraki being extinguished from the world being one of the strongest moments in the season and the show only to be undone 2 episodes later as the Dothraki are present and instrumental in taking Kings Landing.

Even the whole "winter is coming" motif kind of got abandoned now in Season 8 where I had assumed we would see a snow covered Kings Landing before the end.

I think there's just a trail of missed opportunities but that's always the way with these kind of TV shows who's popularity is driven by internet "fan theory" in a lot of ways.

Anyway it will all be over in a couple of days and we can look forward to the next big thing.

 

[DKehoe]

I'm interested to see whether in the books the bells being rung in surrender and then being ignored by the invading force happens with Jon Connington rather than Dany. It would line up with his backstory with the Battle Of The Bells and how he thinks he should have been more like Tywin.

I still think Dany is nuking KL, just that specific moment won't happen with her.

 

[AV]

Dresden isn't preposterous as a comparison. neither is the (real) War of the Roses in 15th century England, nor the Thirty Years' War which ravaged a large part of Europe in the 17th century. These are all real historical events which inspired the writers in many different ways. Dany wields a weapon of mass destruction & used it to terrorize her enemy into submission, even after surrender. Was it reminiscent of WW2 firebombing? Absolutely. What's the big deal? Why the outbursts against "bad writing" from millions of "fans"?

Sorry, I just find the idea of justifying the writing of a fictional character in a fantasy series based on the fact that something similar happened on planet earth once a long time ago, even if it's loosely based on that event, silly. Just because it happened in one context doesn't mean it has to happen, or makes sense, in another wildly different context. If Dany spared everyone and people were pissed about that, I could just as easily point to, I dunno, the HMS Glowworm, as an act of historical military mercy, but it doesn't hold much water (no pun intended).

A Queen with super-weapon prone to anger outbursts & imbued with a sense of her own destiny to rule (making everyone bend the knee to her own persona) suddenly slaughters innocents. That's not even controversial storytelling nor surprising. And I don't buy the "but give us more buildup first!" arguments either. Those viewers must not have realized the Iron Throne is the problem, likewise all those who covet it are sooner or later corrupted by absolute power. That's not controversial either.

Okay. You can still have all of that without resorting to genocide. Cranking the dial from "ruthless but ultimately merciful" to "genocidal monster" in the span of five minutes just to show how power can corrupt doesn't work for me, nor many others. It's super cheap and uninteresting compared to how nuanced characters in this show used to be. And don't forget - it's a fantasy TV show, that's all.

Anyway, I'm bored of arguing about it, we won't come to an agreement. I'm just sick of this constant handwaving of legitimate criticisms I keep seeing from one group of fans, as if the other half that are all saying the same thing is somehow them "missing the point" or "not understanding it" in some way. This show has not done anything remotely clever with its script since... well, whenever we were last on-book. It's gotten worse and worse as time's gone on, and it's a shame, because I legitimately love everything around the edges of it - the performances, set pieces, costume, music, stunts and effect, etc. I don't want to dislike it as much as I do, believe me.

I expect the finale to have an even worse reaction - I hope not, but at this point, I expect it.

 

[Rentahamster]

I'm interested to see whether in the books the bells being rung in surrender and then being ignored by the invading force happens with Jon Connington rather than Dany. It would line up with his backstory with the Battle Of The Bells and how he thinks he should have been more like Tywin.

I still think Dany is nuking KL, just that specific moment won't happen with her.

That's possible. The bells could trigger JonCon. Either Young Griff or Dany will fuck up KL probably due to unknown wildfire stashes somehow.

Whatever happens, I'm confident that GRRM's build up to these events will properly establish motive or some semblance of logic in how this all goes down. Much more than this 2 episode day trip to crazy town.

 

[NickFire]

I'm kinda suspecting that Dany ends up winning.

 

[Geki-D]

I wonder whether someone stood watching the RAF & US airforce aim for women & children in Dresden back in February 1945 & said "hey, aren't you supposed to be the good guys?".

We've moved from GoT to Alt Right talking points; yeah, no.

I agree with this article in particular:

I agree with the myriad of stuff saying that it makes little sense. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[keepthemeyesopen]

There's seemingly two vocal camps in the naysayer group, i.e. a first camp featuring those you mentioned "Dany is muh beloved slay queen", for example youtube rants which start with "Daenerys would never have done that!" (she did, i.e. they need to square with that fact) & a second camp who're asking for "more" character development/buildup before her rampage. To them I can only suggest they're having difficulty coping with the unease & uncomfortable feeling they felt when watching Daenerys (aka someone they've seen presented as heroic & a power fantasy for 8 years) commit genocide.

She's a queen with a weapon of mass destruction, a history of temper tantrums/rash decision making & killing people for various reasons, i.e. even Jorah himself was the subject of a death threat by Daenerys when she exiled him for his "treason" (in inverted commas because he only betrayed her before he even knew what she was like as a person/leader & was thus at that point still 'loyal' to Westeros). Many viewers are translating their own incomprehension into a "this show must be shit because I don't like what I'm feeling whilst watching this". I'm also not surprised a large amount would have preferred Daenerys to be presented as a literal Darth Vader (including baddie music) before her killing spree because that's the nature of the current pop culture environment which conditioned them into being told who was evil & not figure it out themselves.

That's how I see it anyway. Some of us had been waiting for Daenerys to go nuclear for a very long time & it was long overdue.

To each his own, I respectably disagree with your opinion from this post and previous. It's obvious by now that this season will always be a divided one which in turn makes one opinion not better then another. With that being said, I'm in the camp who doesn't think Daenerys would have done what she did judging from past events and just because the "writers" wrote that she did doesn't mean we have to agree that choice, but since the writers chose this path the least they could have done was wrote it better. Correct me if I'm wrong but in the past, anytime Dany killed people they were never the innocent but usually leaders that opposed her and their soldiers. You give Jorah as an example but I think it's a bad one. This is understandable that she would threaten to kill him, he broke her trust by never telling her the truth of what his original intentions were. This isn't an example of being mad or psychotic, she was heart broken and betrayed. Before this season started I re watch all the seasons and I never saw hints or "foreshadowing " from past seasons that would make me think Dany would ever go nuclear so I can't understand why any one would have thought this might happen. Again while I don't agree with the choice I can accept it if was written better. To me her genocide felt force just for the sake of shock and awe. We literally had just two episode hinting that she might go mad and how it was done to me felt rushed and sloppy. They purposely wrote her strategically attacking Cercei's army up until the bell rung and the writers explanation for this is just so stupid. The red keep, a symbol of her race, taken by her enemies, now she must take it personally even though up until this point she never did take it personally. If she wanted to destroy Kings Landing so bad why didn't she just do it right away? Dany - "Ugh the bell rung, now I can't kill lots of people, fuck it I'm doing it anyway" That's what I thought Dany was really thinking before I saw the behind the scenes episode of the writers explanation. Both or stupid either way. But again if the Red Keep really bothered her why not just attack the Red keep? What does the innocents have anything to do with it? She mad they say, okay if she supposed to be the "Mad Queen" why didn't she kill Jon and Tyrion? They betrayed her as well, why weren't they burn alive? You would think if she was really out of control of her emotions that she wouldn't be able to restrain her herself from killing two popular characters. But innocent people? She had enough of saving them. I guess she was letting out her anger? Poor excuse. Anyway to each his own.

 

[Jon Neu]

And Tyrion's dad was an evil manipulative bastard

Exactly like Tyrion.

Guess Tyrion should have been delighted with the events of the past episode then, since I've now learned that given that his family is known for doing bad shit it totally means he is exactly the same.

Well, after all the bad shit Cersei has done, Tyrion wanted to save her life. The same can be said for Jaime.

They all are actually very similar.

But you know, they are Lannisters, not Targaryens. They don't have madness writen in their genetic code.

No, I don't.
It's not an outcome I dislike BTW. I've dislike Dany ever since she got her dragons and I hope they kill her next episode. I just don't think her evolution from entitled brat to mass child murderer was done well

The problem with a tv show is that you can't make this transition slow, because then everybody and their dog can see it coming.

So, for me in this case, the incompetence of the writers works in their favour, because I, like many other people, never thought they had neither the balls neither the audacity to pull something like this.

Dany going mad and destroying King's Landing feels like something unique, it's absolutely amazing. It's almost like watching the third impact of The End Of Evangelion.

 

[Barnabot]

But you know, they are Lannisters, not Targaryens. They don't have madness writen in their genetic code.

Are you sure? There's that MOFO Joffrey .

 

[Jon Neu]

Are you sure? There's that MOFO Joffrey .

And that's why Cersei alludes to the Targaryens to find an explanation for how crazy her son is.

And there's that theory of Aerys the Mad King being the real father of Cersei and Jaime, which would explain their incestuous infatuation, their looks and Joffrey.

 

[ruvikx]

We've moved from GoT to Alt Right talking points; yeah, no.

If Dresden & Allied firebombing is an "alt-right" topic, then the western world is in a very strange place. Back to serious matters.

To each his own, I respectably disagree with your opinion from this post and previous. It's obvious by now that this season will always be a divided one which in turn makes one opinion not better then another. With that being said, I'm in the camp who doesn't think Daenerys would have done what she did judging from past events and just because the "writers" wrote that she did doesn't mean we have to agree that choice, but since the writers chose this path the least they could have done was wrote it better.

Firstly, it's probably worth mentioning the fact Daenerys' sudden turn to genocide was actually the entire point & the audience was essentially placed in the shoes of Tyrion & Jon, i.e. mislead, mistaken "fools" conned by a wouldbe tyrant riding a weapon on mass destruction. It's a morality tale, aka "never trust a dictator with a sense of destiny & WMD's". Classic literature stuff. Daenerys was never a benevolent leader when her entire purpose from minute one was self-empowerment. The rest (her heroism in certain situations & "noble" aspirations) were merely reflective of her changing situation & tools used to advance her towards her endgoal, aka the Iron Throne. The audience were meant to be suckered into supporting her lie, just as the other main characters did.

Secondly, the genocide of Kings Landing did serve a strategic purpose: rule through fear & terror, just as her ancestors did when they first conquered Westeros. She doesn't have the birthright (its Jon's) & she doesn't have the love of the people (that mostly belongs to Jon as well). She had her dragon & used it accordingly.

 

[PrCat88]

Pardon me but this part of conversation between Varys and the young servant have ambiguous meaning to me

Did Varys try to poison Daenerys?

Several eagle-eyed fans realized that the conversation with one of Varys' little birds, a kitchen girl called Martha, was far more sinister than it seemed. Here's how it went down:

Varys: “Nothing?”

Girl: “She won’t eat.”

Varys: “We’ll try again at supper.”

Girl: “I think they’re watching me.”

Varys: “Who?”

Girl: “Her soldiers.”

Varys: “Of course they are. That’s their job. What have I told you, Martha?”

Girl: “The bigger the risk, the bigger the reward.”

Varys: “Go on. They’ll be missing you in the kitchen.”

Was Varys trying to get danny to eat or legit he tried to poison her?

That was the method of trying to kill her in season 1 with the wine. Although I'm surprised I never considered that he may have been trying again.

 

[Raynes]

I always fucking hated Daenerys, cold self-rightous entitled bitch from the start. I'm not quite sure where those fans of hers who named their own daughters after her came from, they must be severely mentally deficient. Right from the start she had some sort of a split personality thing going on, one moment she's freeing slaves, the other moment she's burning her enemies alive. She was probably the only character who was evil and completely unlikeable. The story fucked up having very likable intelligent and good-hearted characters get behind her like Tyrion and Jon. She's so up her own ass and hard to work with, but Jon and Tyrion willingly chose to submit to her...why? It made 0 sense. The romance between Jon and Daenerys was so unbelievable. However, on the topic of having her snapping, I do think that's in character, but what's not in character was killing civilians. She has snapped lots of times before and burned people alive with her dragon, an evil and unncessary act, but it had always been people who fought against her. It was so unncessary, just having her burn all the surrendering Lannister soldiers would have been effective enough to show how she's finally become "The Mad Queen", didn't have to have her kill civilians. But you know, when Dumb & Dumber are writing the plot, got to go with the thing that makes least sense and has the most shock value.

 

[Geki-D]

Varys: “Nothing?”

Girl: “She won’t eat.”

Varys: “We’ll try again at supper.”

Girl: “I think they’re watching me.”

Varys: “Who?”

Girl: “Her soldiers.”

Varys: “Of course they are. That’s their job. What have I told you, Martha?”

Girl: “The bigger the risk, the bigger the reward.”

Varys: “Go on. They’ll be missing you in the kitchen.”

It's interesting to think about. I sort of just assumed he was looking after her health and seeing as she wasn't eating, they would try to get her to eat later. He might have wanted Jon to be King instead but he didn't want her dead. It actually makes sense in the context of poison though. The only thing that sticks out is that I'm sure the show would have been way more blatant if he did try and would have made a big deal out of it. It seems a little too subtle for this season.

 

[AV]

it was more like hiroshima, since it was a decision to bomb the people into submission and weaponize the strength of mercy over fear of rule

Hiroshima is also a bad comparison in that the Japanese culture meant they weren't going to stop; if we tried to quell them it on foot we'd lose our own men. Horrid, but justified in a military sense. Slaughtering innocents after their leaders' surrender in a city you intend to rule is quite far removed.

 

[Tesseract]

Hiroshima is also a bad comparison in that the Japanese culture meant they weren't going to stop; if we tried to quell them it on foot we'd lose our own men. Horrid, but justified in a military sense. Slaughtering innocents after their leaders' surrender in a city you intend to rule is quite far removed.

that's actually why i like the comparison, because the tactic obliterates all notions of rights to cloture, censure, surrender

 

[Kadayi]

Pardon me but this part of conversation between Varys and the young servant have ambiguous meaning to me

Did Varys try to poison Daenerys?

Several eagle-eyed fans realized that the conversation with one of Varys' little birds, a kitchen girl called Martha, was far more sinister than it seemed. Here's how it went down:

Varys: “Nothing?”

Girl: “She won’t eat.”

Varys: “We’ll try again at supper.”

Girl: “I think they’re watching me.”

Varys: “Who?”

Girl: “Her soldiers.”

Varys: “Of course they are. That’s their job. What have I told you, Martha?”

Girl: “The bigger the risk, the bigger the reward.”

Varys: “Go on. They’ll be missing you in the kitchen.”

Was Varys trying to get danny to eat or legit he tried to poison her?

Absolutely. I'm surprised so few picked up on it tbh.

 

[Rentahamster]

lol

‘Game Of Thrones’ Showrunners Disappointed With How Quality Of Fans Has Dropped Off Over Past Couple Seasons

LOS ANGELES—Saying their once-beloved viewers have lost much of their luster in recent years, Game Of Thrones showrunners D.B. Weiss and David Benioff acknowledged Friday they have been frustrated with the way fans of the HBO series have declined in quality over the past few seasons. “During the...

entertainment.theonion.com

It’s pretty sad, to be honest.” At press time, Benioff and Weiss expressed regret that they failed to do more to prevent the fans from becoming so unbelievably shitty.

 

[Joe T.]

What I find fascinating about The Bells is how the two groups (makes/doesn't make sense) perceived Daenerys and the events directly tied to her in almost polar opposite fashion. That Varys' intentions flew over some heads in the scene with Martha is a little odd to me, especially following his discussion with Tyrion in the previous episode. There's a comparison to be made between Game of Thrones/Daenerys and the public perception of mainstream news, one I'll gladly avoid delving into here.

The Take put out what I thought was a great Youtube video titled "Why Daenerys Was Cersei All Along," comparing and contrasting their journey from start to end. To quote them, "their conflict reveals the true message of Game of Thrones" and "not only is Daenerys the new Cersei, she's worse." Might be worth a watch for anyone still not sold on her turn to the dark side and with 20 minutes to spare.

 

[RedVIper]

lol

‘Game Of Thrones’ Showrunners Disappointed With How Quality Of Fans Has Dropped Off Over Past Couple Seasons

LOS ANGELES—Saying their once-beloved viewers have lost much of their luster in recent years, Game Of Thrones showrunners D.B. Weiss and David Benioff acknowledged Friday they have been frustrated with the way fans of the HBO series have declined in quality over the past few seasons. “During the...

entertainment.theonion.com

I can't tell if you're aware you're reading theonion..

 

[Rentahamster]

I can't tell if you're aware you're reading theonion..

Do you think that little of me?

 

[Texas Pride]

Absolutely. I'm surprised so few picked up on it tbh.

I think Varys poisoned her to buy himself time to get his message out via ravens to the 7 kingdoms. By delaying her or killing her via poison the end goal is the same. To undermine her legitimacy to the crown.

 

[Tesseract]

what if varys put steroids in her soup

 

[Texas Pride]

what if varys put steroids in her soup

She looked sick tbh. She's like Jon do you wanna love up on me. He's like yo I'll pass on that dragon ass tonight ya need liquids and soup. She's like aight I'm killing everybody since yall got no love.

 

[MetalAlien]

I thought of a way to save the Winterfell Dothraki charge, although it would cost a lot more since you would have to show the Dothraki actually fighting the AOTD.

Have Melisandre show up much earlier than she did and demand to see Dani alone. When she meets Dani she asked her if they have enough Dragonglass weapons for everyone. Dani would say something like no we are short by 1/3rd. So 1 out of every 3 doesn't have Dragonglass. The show cuts away right there and a few minutes later Dani would come out and proclaim she is sending the Dothraki away.

Everyone would freak out and ask why? "They are our best fighters why send them away?" Dani would say firmly that we don't have enough Dragonglass for everyone and if we survive this will will need them. I am not going to sacrifice the Dothraki for nothing. After that with everyone else very upset, the Dothraki and Melisandre leave Winterfell to parts unknown. Maybe have Jon and Sansa question Dani's actions again but she holds firm.

Maybe two episodes later the battle of Winterfell starts. This time the Unsullied are INSIDE the gates lining the top of castle. The dead attack and after a powerful struggle are starting to over run the gates everyone is freaking out as the Dead are about the breach the Gates and Dani says "NOW!" or gives a singal or something. Maybe she flies over Melisandre and Drogon roars or someone in the castle fires an arrow that burns green. something like that.

Then the camera cuts to Melisandre standing in the dark next to what appears to be one Dothraki. She does her spell and lights the sword. The flame spreads out revealing ALL the Dothraki lining the ridge, flaming swords reveal there were waiting in the dark for the signal. Then they do their charge with the artillery flying overhead.

They crash into the dead and fight them back from the gate and give Bran time to do something.... or whatever. I don't have an end to the episode but it's a hell of a better way to begin it.

 

[Rentahamster]

They crash into the dead and fight them back from the gate and give Bran time to do something.... or whatever. I don't have an end to the episode but it's a hell of a better way to begin it.

That sounds cooler than them doing a suicide charge as the first move.

 

[Texas Pride]

In reality Cersi should've been dealt with early on leaving the 7 kingdoms united against the army of the undead in the end. That would've been the best way to send the show off.

 

[Rentahamster]

In reality Cersi should've been dealt with early on leaving the 7 kingdoms united against the army of the undead in the end. That would've been the best way to send the show off.

Yup, especially considering that they had to make Tyrion and Varys retarded so that they give Dany bad advice to not deal with Cersei early on. She could have totally took King's Landing at the beginning of season 7 with minimal casualties.

 

[Rentahamster]

The writers kinda forgot that Davos who grew up in Flea Bottom never knew bells to mean surrender.

 

[Rentahamster]

Nice background of the lore and worldbuilding. If we ever get a remake 10 or 20 years from now, I wonder if they could use the same language. In terms of if it's copyrighted somehow.



...and I knew them all by name!" lol

 

[Texas Pride]

If the leaks are true about the final episode I'll be disappointed. The season hasn't been great up until now and D & D blaming fans expectations isn't very classy.

 

[Geki-D]

If the leaks are true about the final episode I'll be disappointed. The season hasn't been great up until now and D & D blaming fans expectations isn't very classy.

I'm not familiar with the leaks nor do I wish to be, but what I have heard is that the leaks for Ep 5 were apparently spot on. If that's true you can bet Ep 6 leaks have a high chance of being true too.

 

[greyshark]

Knowing what we know now it makes sense why they dealt with the Night King first - the aftermath of the next episode would have had no chance at defeating the Night King. Makes me wonder if GRRM will take the same path in the books.