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[CrustyBritches]

I feel like next-gen systems will be small like Xbox One X, not big like Xbox One.

Xbox One X is kind of the template for a compact, quiet, ~175W console. Navi 5700 XT is 225W TBP, and probably higher at gaming/boost clocks. When you move up from the 9TF 5700 XT to something like 12-13TF then you lose that console sweet spot for being compact, quiet, and power efficient.

A ~8TF $399 PS5 with 16GB GDDR6, 4GB DDR4, proprietary SSD, and 8c/16t Zen 2 CPU would be a world beater. I'll keep my expectations on the conservative side and if next-gen consoles do have 12-13TF GPU and 12-core CPU with 3-way SMT and 24GB RAM, then great. What a pleasant surprise that would be.

 

[Fake]

WTF? Microsoft told Scarlet will be NAVI days ago, so wtf people are smoking for contest even uncle Phil?

 

[demigod]

People seem to forget Sony is first and foremost a hardware company whereas Microsoft is a software company.

Expecting nextbox to be a gen ahead of ps5 is even more crazy than Misterxmedia.

 

[vpance]

We'll be lucky if either of them manages to reach 12, let alone 14 LOL.

Well whatever the case is I'm thinking there's at least a 2TF difference going by dev comments. Since the minimum will be 11TF (neither can afford the embarrassment of being weaker than Stadia), that puts PS5 at 13TF minimum.

 

[Gamernyc78]

After E3 you all just go on and on, nothing substantial revealed.

The latest adoredtv video is informative. It shows Navi is power hungry, with 64 cu and above you are Looking at 300 watts... say goodbye to these numbers in consoles.

Max CU range in my opinion 36 to 48, 48 if cooling solutions are up to it. Max TF imo 10. But the added Ray Tracing Hardware will make up for the 9 - 10 TF range , imo the 10+ dream is dead, with the launch of these consoles. Also everything will be under clocked 1500 MHz range is my guess, maybe 1650 is achievable with a really thought out thermal l solution.

Maybe 12TF+ with pro models . Depends after how many years they launch.

We still getting info from Adoretv after he got called out previously for incorrect info? Or am I misremembering?

 

[SpinningBirdKick]

I'm thinking 13-14TF launching first, $499.

Anaconda 10-11TF $449 (forced to cut price because of the power difference).

PS I can see nearing 14.

Anaconda is probably targeting 13.x (12.9 + ~5%)

I think PS5 will more likely to be <=449 than >449. It still needs to be a mass market friendly price.

MS seem to be reactive rather than proactive with next-gen marketing, so I'm guessing they're further out from release.

PS5 can be BOTH cheaper, more powerful and launch first? Crazy if true...

PS is a pillar of Sony's business. They are a market leader this generation. The idea that they will just roll over is ridiculous. Expect the unexpected.

 

[Gamernyc78]

People seem to forget Sony is first and foremost a hardware company whereas Microsoft is a software company.

Expecting nextbox to be a gen ahead of ps5 is even more crazy than Misterxmedia.

Even beyond tht, tht software expertise shit means nothing when Sony arguably had a better os, better games, shareplay on a software level and remote play were some of the best features this gen. I mean both companies have and can employ the cream of the crop and they have. Microsoft gets credit for bc implementation. But my point stands.

 

[SonGoku]

Max CU range in my opinion 36 to 48, 48 if cooling solutions are up to it

Nah minimum 56CU (enabled)
The strenght of the 7nm process is in the density increase

 

[Burrito Bandito]

I wouldn't want that tbh, they provide massive entertainment being Sony punching bag since 2001

On a more serious answer: they should just focus and have a clear vision on what they want of Xbox.

the only time they were Sonys punching bag was with the Xbox One. No one expected anything with their first console and then MS beat them in the console war with their very second effort. Then they made the better console with the One X over the Pro. So i wouldnt call 1 for 4 a “punching bag”.

Yea. MS is just playing cute and staying in hardware just not to piss off their current fan base. Once Gamepass and everything gets geared up, they are going to pull the rug from underneath their fans.

as if Sony wont do the exact same thing once they get the chance. Give me a break. The ONLY thing that would keep Sony in the hardware business a second longer than MS would be their lack of streaming infrastructure, not some sore of noble loyalty to their hardware customers. dont be delusional, streaming is 100% going to replace hardware whether you like it or not, it makes too much business sense.

 

[Ar¢tos]

PS is a pillar of Sony's business. They are a market leader this generation. The idea that they will just roll over is ridiculous. Expect the unexpected.

Not only that, from a business perspective it can make sense having slightly better hardware for a cheaper price.
Sony has more potential buyers than MS because of brand image in Europe and Asia, meaning they will order more quantities from AMD (than MS) , get better discounts and higher priority in manufacturing. It's business tradition to care better for the better costumers.

 

[Fake]

Sign In to AMD Community - AMD Community

community.amd.com

 

[Burrito Bandito]

What if...

• 12.9 TF leak was misinformation
• 14.2 TF
• Priced below the competition's high end model
• Launches first

Can any of these really be discounted yet?

An interesting start to the generation, no?

a delusional way perhaps. Actually, theres quite a bit of delusion ITT. MS launching a significantly less powerful console would be market suicide. Seriously, to even think that is delusional imo, It just wont happen. i dont care what unsupported rumors say. They are both releasing the same year with the same tech available and MS has their gaming division on the line.

I could see a slight power difference but nothing more than negligible. If* there is a less powerful xbox console out there then they are going with a 2 sku release; a less powerful and cheaper-than-ps5 model and then a pro model.

 

[Mass Shift]

PS5 can be BOTH cheaper, more powerful and launch first? Crazy if true...

Well at least two out of three of those are completely at Sony's own pleasure. Hardware is very likely already finalized.

Both MS and Sony have engaged in controlled leaks and soft reveals. AMD has also carefully skirted around the line, making sure that their console partners are the only ones in charge of their own transparency.

It was very different in 2013. Sony revealed specs first and MS was only willing to share how many transistors their APU comprised. This current mutual stand off appears to be about more than just clocks. A few numbers here or there wouldn't create concern. I think they both have something substantial to reveal. It's not a game of chicken, it's poker. If it was just about clocks there would be nothing left to reveal and the only thing left fighting for would be the right to shape the next generation's narrative.

 

[vpance]

PS I can see nearing 14.

Anaconda is probably targeting 13.x (12.9 + ~5%)

I think PS5 will more likely to be <=449 than >449. It still needs to be a mass market friendly price.

MS seem to be reactive rather than proactive with next-gen marketing, so I'm guessing they're further out from release.

I could see that. Sony having the power advantage can put the screws to MS by releasing at $449, which minimizes any pull MS could gain by going $399. For $50 more I think most people would go for PS5 and the added power.

MS is then forced to play the Lockhart card and hope there's a huge market of casuals waiting to buy a $299 1080p next gen console.

 

[Ar¢tos]

I could see that. Sony having the power advantage can put the screws to MS by releasing at $449, which minimizes any pull MS could gain by going $399. For $50 more I think most people would go for PS5 and the added power.

MS is then forced to play the Lockhart card and hope there's a huge market of casuals waiting to buy a $299 1080p next gen console.

But can current gen drop 100$ in price in one year? The base consoles are still 299$.

 

[SpinningBirdKick]

I could see that. Sony having the power advantage can put the screws to MS by releasing at $449, which minimizes any pull MS could gain by going $399. For $50 more I think most people would go for PS5 and the added power.

MS is then forced to play the Lockhart card and hope there's a huge market of casuals waiting to buy a $299 1080p next gen console.

Exclusives could be the final nail in the coffin.

MS obviously has Halo infinite and with their "our games on other platforms" approach third party exclusives don't make much sense.

Sony on the other hand could easily go for the rumoured GTA6 timed exclusive. If it's not broken, don't fix it.

 

[vpance]

Exclusives could be the final nail in the coffin.

MS obviously has Halo infinite and with their "our games on other platforms" approach third party exclusives don't make much sense.

Sony on the other hand could easily go for the rumoured GTA6 timed exclusive. If it's not broken, don't fix it.

I think it's already nailed for the most part. Next year is going to be insane for Sony with PS5 versions of TLoU2, Ghosts, DS, in addition to a likely Guerilla Games launch title, and more.

But can current gen drop 100$ in price in one year? The base consoles are still 299$.

I doubt it. That's one of the reasons why I think a cheapo next gen box like Lockhart won't make an impact.

 

[Bryank75]

 

[Lone Wolf]

PS I can see nearing 14.

Anaconda is probably targeting 13.x (12.9 + ~5%)

I think PS5 will more likely to be <=449 than >449. It still needs to be a mass market friendly price.

MS seem to be reactive rather than proactive with next-gen marketing, so I'm guessing they're further out from release.



PS is a pillar of Sony's business. They are a market leader this generation. The idea that they will just roll over is ridiculous. Expect the unexpected.

No way either system gets near 14 TF. Totally delusional. Especially for $449.

 

[Deto]

the only time they were Sonys punching bag was with the Xbox One. No one expected anything with their first console and then MS beat them in the console war with their very second effort. Then they made the better console with the One X over the Pro. So i wouldnt call 1 for 4 a “punching bag”.

Xbox One x PS4:

400 x 500 USD.
1.8 x 1.3 TF
2013 x 2013

PS4 pro x XoneX

400 x 500 USD
4.2 x 6 TF
2016 x 2017

 

[ethomaz]

Another...

 

[Evilms]

399 USD x 499 USD.
1,84 TF x 1,31 TF
November 2013 x November 2013


The most shocking thing is 2013, a much less powerful console and $100 more expensive with a disastrous policy, a nice scam for the time

 

[bitbydeath]

Not only that, from a business perspective it can make sense having slightly better hardware for a cheaper price.
Sony has more potential buyers than MS because of brand image in Europe and Asia, meaning they will order more quantities from AMD (than MS) , get better discounts and higher priority in manufacturing. It's business tradition to care better for the better costumers.

I do wonder if Sony will have the better deal by default for helping create Navi.

Market leader biz aside.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Nah minimum 56CU (enabled)
The strenght of the 7nm process is in the density increase

That Anandtech talk I posted last page had some interesting detail on that, AMD was expecting a clock speed reduction from 7nm and were building out accordingly, as for one they expected to be competing against Intel 10nm parts and made the product accordingly, and two, they assumed if Intel with all their R&D couldn't get 10nm clocking high enough, they assumed TSMC 7nm wouldn't either.

But out of nowhere, the fab with a smaller team actually managed both to increase the density and increase clock speeds, so AMD was doubly lucky with TSMC's skill and Intel flubbing up 10nm and it clocking lower.

 

[Lort]

Another...

He says the xbox will be zen 3 ... with some aspects of zen4.

He also says that it will likely use an external replaceable graphics card.

Unsuprisily the twitter fanboy quoted here cut ALL of that out of the video.

 

[ethomaz]

He says the xbox will be zen 3 ... with some aspects of zen4.

He also says that it will likely use an external replaceable graphics card.

Unsuprisily the twitter fanboy quoted here cut ALL of that out of the video.

He is MisterXMedia, no?

 

[SonGoku]

But out of nowhere, the fab with a smaller team actually managed both to increase the density and increase clock speeds, so AMD was doubly lucky with TSMC's skill and Intel flubbing up 10nm and it clocking lower.

Indeed, that's why im still optimistic
56CUs at 1600Mhz would be 11.4TF
at 1680Mhz 12TF

Add in Navi architecture efficiency and we are getting near RTX2080 performance on a closed box, very exciting!

 

[CyberPanda]

399 USD x 499 USD.
1,84 TF x 1,31 TF
November 2013 x November 2013


The most shocking thing is 2013, a much less powerful console and $100 more expensive with a disastrous policy, a nice scam for the time

Ya. Thanks to TV TV crap and Kinect. Don mattrick is laughing on top of all the cash he made.

 

[SonGoku]

No way either system gets near 14 TF. Totally delusional. Especially for $449.

If 7nm EUV is available at launch for consoles (pretty big if) 14TF would be EZ. Otherwise 12TF MAX
64CU @1710Mhz = 14TF (72CU total)
72CU @1520 = 14TF (80CU total) TLZ based dream

80CUs on 7nm EUV would come under 330mm2

 

[SonGoku]

I do wonder if Sony will have the better deal by default for helping create Navi.

Market leader biz aside.

They did? Lisa said Sony got involved mid RDNA development

 

[bitbydeath]

They did? Lisa said Sony got involved mid RDNA development

I can’t seem to find any recent articles on it. I thought AMD drummed up their involvement in the same conference they called Mark Cerny a genius? (Before E3)

 

[SonGoku]

I can’t seem to find any recent articles on it. I thought AMD drummed up their involvement in the same conference they called Mark Cerny a genius? (Before E3)

AMD’s Lisa Su at Computex, on the record: Threadripper, Huawei, ray tracing and more

AMD chief executive Lisa Su sits down with reporters following her keynote address at Computex. Here is our transcript of the conversation.

www.pcworld.com

Spoiler: tl;dr

Reporter: Given that Sony has already announced ray tracing as part of the PlayStation 5, can you tell us if that’s a Sony optimization, or part of RDNA?

Su: So we certainly have done very specific optimizations for Sony. They are a deep customer for us on semi-custom products. There are optimizations there. However, we view ray tracing as a very important element across the portfolio. So we’ll have ray tracing a number of other places... Look at that, you got me to say more about ray tracing!

David Wang, senior vice president of engineering at AMD: We started our RDNA development before the Sony engagement. RDNA is a revolutionary architecture; it’s also very flexible. So it can be optimized [inaudible].

Reporter: So it’s like an FPGA.

Su: I wouldn’t exactly say that.

What she said about Cerny:


btw the video is lagging or my computer is a potato?

 

[CyberPanda]

AMD’s Lisa Su at Computex, on the record: Threadripper, Huawei, ray tracing and more

AMD chief executive Lisa Su sits down with reporters following her keynote address at Computex. Here is our transcript of the conversation.

www.pcworld.com

Spoiler: tl;dr

Reporter: Given that Sony has already announced ray tracing as part of the PlayStation 5, can you tell us if that’s a Sony optimization, or part of RDNA?

Su: So we certainly have done very specific optimizations for Sony. They are a deep customer for us on semi-custom products. There are optimizations there. However, we view ray tracing as a very important element across the portfolio. So we’ll have ray tracing a number of other places... Look at that, you got me to say more about ray tracing!

David Wang, senior vice president of engineering at AMD: We started our RDNA development before the Sony engagement. RDNA is a revolutionary architecture; it’s also very flexible. So it can be optimized [inaudible].

Reporter: So it’s like an FPGA.

Su: I wouldn’t exactly say that.

What she said about Cerny:


btw the video is lagging or my computer is a potato?

It’s your potato computer.

 

[SonGoku]

It’s your potato computer.

Damn i was hoping it was faulty codec, CPU not even 50%

 

[CyberPanda]

Damn i was hoping it was faulty codec, CPU not even 50%

Just throw it out the window. That should fix it.

 

[CrustyBritches]

It's the video. It's been fucked up since day 1.

P.S.- Still throw your PC out the window...for science, etc.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Damn i was hoping it was faulty codec, CPU not even 50%

Just throw it out the window. That should fix it.

You know what could play that video at full framerate?

A PS5.

It is meant to be, do it for SuBae

 

[Insane Metal]

It's the video. It's been fucked up since day 1.

P.S.- Still throw your PC out the window...for science, etc.

Hey, completely OT but... how's TD2 doing? Any changes or is it still the same shit?

 

[wordslaughter]

Indeed, that's why im still optimistic
56CUs at 1600Mhz would be 11.4TF
at 1680Mhz 12TF

Add in Navi architecture efficiency and we are getting near RTX2080 performance on a closed box, very exciting!

While what you say is possible there are a few problems.

~1680mhz is between the "game clock" for the 5700 and 5700XT.

Do you really think a console is going to be clocked the same as a dGPU reference model? That's difficult to imagine. Possible, but difficult to believe.

IMO Navi in the PS5 will run at below the base clock of PC GPU Navi. 1.4GHz probably, 1.5GHz tops.

Also at 40CU the 5700XT is already drawing 225watts ( and I bet it exceeds that under full load ), we will see soon. So if we add another 16CUs the power draw is going to be north of 300 watts for the GPU alone.

How does a 300+watt GPU (GPU only) fit in the heat/power envelope of a console? Add in an 8 core CPU and a PCIe 4.0 SSD, blueray drive etc and we're talking possibly north of 400 watts.

At this point Navi has been revealed and we now know that Navi doesn't clock as high as we were hoping and it's obviously not as electrically efficient as we were hoping either.

So while your math does add up and there would be no problem building a PC GPU with the specs you describe, the power it would consume and the heat it would produce make it unsuitable for a console.

Maybe @1.4GHz Navi becomes a lot more efficient but then that's going to lower the TFLOP count by quite a bit.

Also what about cost? I see you talking about 72CUs at lower clocks to try and make the math work, to get as high a TFLOP count as possible, but the 40CU 5700XT is $450. What will a 72CU Navi cost?

Do you really see the PS5 GPU having 72CUs?

 

[CrustyBritches]

Hey, completely OT but... how's TD2 doing? Any changes or is it still the same shit?

I'll have to talk to my brother, I haven't played since the morning the raid came out. I read this thread everyday just waiting and hoping that Massive would care enough about us to give us back our exotics, but nothing. Breaks my heart. Going on 2 months since our exotics started disappearing.

 

[SonGoku]

Do you really think a console is going to be clocked the same as a dGPU reference model? That's difficult to imagine. Possible, but difficult to believe.

Im waiting on voltage confirmation, im working under the assumption that rx5700 uses the default voltage that its meant to clock all the way up to 1950Mhz on all modes
A 56CU wouldn't need as high a voltage to remain stable at a max clock of 1600-1680Mhz if it were fined tuned to hit that spot they could also use the hobbit method.
Also keep in mind early 7nm yields mean cards have a high voltage to compensate

IMO Navi in the PS5 will run at below the base clock of PC GPU Navi. 1.4GHz probably, 1.5GHz tops.

I agree around 1.5Ghz is the safest bet so around 11TF is my base expectation

Also at 40CU the 5700XT is already drawing 225watts ( and I bet it exceeds that under full load )

That's with a voltage that supports a 1.9ghz boost though, so likely hitting diminishing returns for max performance

There's also the possibility of a 72CU chip (64 enabled) at 1.5Ghz = 12.2TF

 

[kingwingin]

as long as it does 4k will all the bells and whistles i actually prefer stronger CPU over stronger GPU. I much prefer more people on the streets and more cars on the roads.

As an imbecile who knows nothing about technology, I like this guys theory. Makes more sense then launching 2 distinct systems at launch

 

[Turk1993]

What if PS5 gpu is like 13TF but with 50RT (Ray tracing cores) and the Xbox 4 gpu is like 12TF but with 100RT cores. Because they both have some sort of hardware based ray tracing, i wonder how that will scale in ray traced games. I really want them to push each other so whe can have best of both worlds.

 

[wordslaughter]

For the PS4, its GPU was based on mid-range Pitcarin. It was a custom chip, in that it was not exactly an off the shelf PC GPU part, but at the end of the day what it was was a custom part that very much landed between the 7870 and 7850 (which launched about 18 months before the PS4).

The Navi 5700XT and 5700 are this gens mid-range chips (launching about 18 months before the PS5).

Is it crazy to think that the PS5 GPU will land somewhere between these?

 

[Turk1993]

For the PS4, its GPU was based on mid-range Pitcarin. It was a custom chip, in that it was not exactly an off the shelf PC GPU part, but at the end of the day what it was was a custom part that very much landed between the 7870 and 7850 (which launched about 18 months before the PS4).

The Navi 5700XT and 5700 are this gens mid-range chips (launching about 18 months before the PS5).

Is it crazy to think that the PS5 GPU will land somewhere between these?

They aimed for 399, now they aim for 499 thats why i think it will be more powerfull than the 5700XT.

 

[wordslaughter]

They aimed for 399, now they aim for 499 thats why i think it will be more powerfull than the 5700XT.

Do we really know that? Also inflation is eating into that $100 difference. Also $100 is not very much of a difference.

It's not just about cost, it's also about power and heat envelopes. Big Navi is going to be both expensive and draw a lot of power, 300+ watts.

Also what about the timeframe? Big Navi doesn't release until next year which doesn't leave enough time IMO. Consoles have to be finalized a LONG time before launch date.

 

[CrustyBritches]

Also at 40CU the 5700XT is already drawing 225watts ( and I bet it exceeds that under full load ), we will see soon.

That 225W TBP is probably base clocks, and we'll see 235W gaming and 250W peak. Maybe higher on the AiBs. It's probably best to use the reference design since it has a cooling solution similar to what consoles will be using.

Looking at perf/watt for RX 480, it starts sweet and then goes bad the following year with the 580. Same with going wider with lower clock on Vega 56 and especially Vega 64 despite their architectural advantages. With Polaris 10/RX 480, moving towards RX 470 is where the perf/watt jump happens. Which is your modern 5700 Pro in comparison to Polaris. By AMD's own jacked up numbers the 5700 Pro has become more interesting to me than 5700 XT.

Like you said, we'll see what happens with comprehensive testing.

 

[Ovech-King]

Keep in mind devkit leaks point to at least 16gb gddr6 so keep in mind the 9.75 tflops of the 5700xt is because it only have 8gb gddr6. That why the ps5 should be above 12tf

 

[wordslaughter]

Here's my problem with the speculation ITT

Much of it is falling within the realm o possibility... but just.

Is it possible that next gen will have far better cooling than in the past, so we can speculate that clocks can be higher? Sure.

Is it possible they be OK with drawing more power than in the past, so we can speculate that watts don't matter? Sure.

Is it possible that they will be willing to absorb some of the cost this time, subsidizing somewhat, so we can pretend that cost isn't an issue? Sure.

Is it possible that the GPU will be based on high end PC parts and not mid-range, allowing us to speculate about much higher CU counts? Sure.

All of these things are POSSIBLE, but what we're doing at this point is building a house of cards where each card is a best case scenario, and the entire house of cards is being built to reach an arbitrary TFLOP number.

 

[luca_29_bg]

Wait...the tdp it's 180w, 225 it's the total board power.