Microsoft aint losing on power again, with all the interviews that it matters, and with lockhart, all tells me that for them to achieve that they will put more $100 above just to beat sony on performance, and the lockhart $100 below PS5I do get your point, 8Tf console dont suit that monster theory, then again those pr: well people are more familiar with previous generation Teraflops (gcn) it make more sense to communicate well with the consumer so he can get a sense of what hes buying.
It goes like that, gcn 2 digit Tf garanty.
Not saying its 8Tf tho.
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To make it easier for you guys, try to get inside console designers heads.
- Put hard limits on paper.
- Put manufacturing nodes on paper.
- Put die size and energy requirements as well.
- Put AMD current offering on paper.
- Put console price on paper.
After that try to design console.
Think about it, designers work with hard limits and they are using following :
- 7nm node (at most 7nm+ with slightly higher density and 15% higher clocks for same wattage).
- AMD APU
- Pricing console at $499 max
- Navi/Zen2 combo (RT included), I/Os, gobs of GDDR6 RAM, wide memory controler, SSD, BD drive - all within 200W
So, now look at what AMD is offering and what they have to include there.
- 8 core Zen2 at 3.2GHz is around 30W
- 40CU Navi at 1.8GHZ is 200W (without RT, 220W with 8GB of memory)
- 16-20GB of GDDR6 ~ 30W
- I/O, SSD, disc drive ~ 15W
How do you fit all of this inside 320-350mm² chip and 180-200W of power consumption?
Fact is - YOU CANT. Now increase 40CU part to 56CUs and add RT hardware.
This is why 12TF without new node is bogus. Its right infront of your eyes. They are not talking about TF. They are talking about SSD, new CPUs, physics, 60fps etc. but not TFs.
Why? Because we are stuck. We where at 10TF 4 years ago. So where is 30TF GPU? Why arent we advancing faster? Why does new Nvidia flagship after 2 years deliver 10% increase in FLOPs, but 40-50% faster performance in games?
Face it, tech is getting mature. Node advencment is slower and slower, but also more expensive. So what we are getting is what its confined inside hard limits, now what people expect and want.
- Put hard limits on paper.
- Put manufacturing nodes on paper.
- Put die size and energy requirements as well.
- Put AMD current offering on paper.
- Put console price on paper.
After that try to design console.
Think about it, designers work with hard limits and they are using following :
- 7nm node (at most 7nm+ with slightly higher density and 15% higher clocks for same wattage).
- AMD APU
- Pricing console at $499 max
- Navi/Zen2 combo (RT included), I/Os, gobs of GDDR6 RAM, wide memory controler, SSD, BD drive - all within 200W
So, now look at what AMD is offering and what they have to include there.
- 8 core Zen2 at 3.2GHz is around 30W
- 40CU Navi at 1.8GHZ is 200W (without RT, 220W with 8GB of memory)
- 16-20GB of GDDR6 ~ 30W
- I/O, SSD, disc drive ~ 15W
How do you fit all of this inside 320-350mm² chip and 180-200W of power consumption?
Fact is - YOU CANT. Now increase 40CU part to 56CUs and add RT hardware.
This is why 12TF without new node is bogus. Its right infront of your eyes. They are not talking about TF. They are talking about SSD, new CPUs, physics, 60fps etc. but not TFs.
Why? Because we are stuck. We where at 10TF 4 years ago. So where is 30TF GPU? Why arent we advancing faster? Why does new Nvidia flagship after 2 years deliver 10% increase in FLOPs, but 40-50% faster performance in games?
Face it, tech is getting mature. Node advencment is slower and slower, but also more expensive. So what we are getting is what its confined inside hard limits, now what people expect and want.
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Agree, 11+ not happening
Insane Metal
Member
People wanting 14TF for 180W - it's not gonna happen.
More then 40CUs is not confirmed.
2.1GHZ is not confirmed.
880GB/s is 100% not confirmed.
Jason said MS and Sony are shooting for better then what Google delivered with Stadia, 7-8months ago. He also said he doesnt have numbers.
Tom Warren said 12TF Arcturus and now more then 10TF, so he only needs to say "around 9TF" to have everything covered.
Go back in 2-3 months time when specs leak and my predictions are correct. Im not even insider, but you do not have to be genius to know what is on market, which nodes they are using and at what price they are launching it. It all points to specs we are getting.
TLZ
Banned
Insane Metal
Member
sonomamashine
Member
Thats why i keep telling them to stop with this rumor about whos better because we have NO concrete proof yet.
Unless they release 2 consoles 399 & 549 or even more at release, keep in mind that prices will drop as time goes on, so going for a beast is not off the map, of course 11Tf-.
Its of the map simply because TDP does not allow it. 11TF chip would likely be ~300W just for APU, and there has never been a console using that much electricity.
PS3 used ~200W on max, Xbox One X - 190W.
That is with APU, memory, I/Os, drive.
Negotiator
Member
Not to mention the Turing uarch already supports VRS since 2018:
NVIDIA Turing Architecture In-Depth | NVIDIA Technical Blog
Fueled by the ongoing growth of the gaming market and its insatiable demand for better 3D graphics, NVIDIA® has evolved the GPU into the world’s leading parallel processing engine for many…
devblogs.nvidia.com
Gamernyc78
Banned
Your just saying tht bcus it doesn't help the narrative you so desperately you want to be true. You know the one tht goes "bcus Microsoft got their ass spanked this Gen and are butthurt Phil is going to make sure Microsoft has power advantage" we don't care what Phil or Microsoft try to say life doesn't work tht way. Sony wants the power advantage just as much as Microsoft do and have just as much resourced available to pull it off again. That shit is 50/50 but more like 80/20 leaning towards Sony having the advantage bcus too many ppl are coming out saying it looks tht way.
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sonomamashine
Member
Did you put 7nm+ power consumption in mind + all those Dev kit vents ?
Must be indicatif.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
You make a great argument but I just don't get why so many "insiders" and rumours are saying >10TF. We're missing something key right now.
TLZ
Banned
sonomamashine
Member
You seem to forget that MS has A Lot at stakes, Sony don't.
This has nothing to do with me or narrative, nutral point of view.
With 7nm+ you would still be well, well above 200W just for the APU. Then there is all the other stuff and you are looking at ~280W which is almost 100W higher then Sonys most over the top designed console - PS3.
I mean, just 16GB of GDDR6 - 16Gbps chips is 30W.
Oh and add to this that you CANNOT expect 2-3x Xbox One X (PS4 pro) as these where mid gen refreshes. You have to compare it to PS4 and Xbox One.
Insane Metal
Member
Page 300 here we go!
Gamernyc78
Banned
I have not forgotten anything. And Sony doesn't? Thy just recently got back in the green with ps4 after heavy losses with PS3. Playstation is basically the face of the whole Sony brand bcus it's the winner in the company. Shit thy have more at stake than Xbox does. If thy sink the company takes a massive hit, if Xbox sinks tht trillion dollar company will be OK.
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Same reason many of them said Xbox One will be 10x 360 and that there were dev kits with Cross Fire cards there.
Turned out to be BS. Its because 99% of jurnos dont follow GPU market and tech. If I say to Jason "Yea, both will be more powerful then Stadia (and stadia is 10.7TF Vega)" they might think "Ok so its more then 10TF".
While truth is 9TF Navi 2 with RT and VRS would send 13.5TF Navi 7 to smithereens, let alone Vega 56.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
True, but in all fairness in Jason's case he is always at pains to say he isn't tech savvy.
Oh ofc. Many people actually said Jason said its more then 10TF because back in March he said both MS and Sony are shooting above Stadia.
Most took it as >10.7TF
But what we know now is that 9.5TF Navi matches 13.5TF Vega, and Navi 2 with VRS and RT would DISSMANTLE it.
So, yes, Scarlett/PS5 will EASILY beat it even with 9TF Navi 2's. Remember, VRS brings 50+% improvement in performance, and even Sparkman has it (Lockhart APU). That hypotetical PS5/Scarlett card would beat 2070 Super, and that is more then anyone could ever imagine tbh.
McHuj
Member
That's why I wouldn't be surprised to see a 9TF GPU based on Navi2. It's certainly in the realm of possibility that the final GPU is 9TF RDNA2, performance better than a 10TF RDNA 1 GPU, and current devkits are using 10TF overclocked RDNA chips. Ultimately, it's the realizable performance that matters not how many theoretical teraflops are present.
You just answered yourself, sony have been taking losses every begining of generation, and they are not a trillion dollar company like MS, that will be taking full advantage of it, they're losing millions with gamepass and buying studios. Satya complete on board with Xbox, i just can't see them not taking full advantage of their money to be more competitive in gaming.
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Exactly. And btw there is no 10TF Navis (at least these OEMs). Their clocks where always around 1750MHZ - which is actually just below 9TF.
VRS brings HUGE improvements in performance, literally tier up just because of it, so I dont see why Navi 2 with VRS and RT would be dissapointing. It would be incredible tbh, much higher then expected before.
sonomamashine
Member
Sony doesn't, they have a bigger Fanbase than Ms, even if they release something less powerful who cares they got games, good studios, if i recall Ps3 outsold 360.
Gamernyc78
Banned
Complete opposite take. First of all Xbox is a sector within Microsoft the company. Thy in no way shape or form have an unlimited amount of resources or access to tht trillion dollars. Like any company they have budgets and boundaries. We know Sonyyyy has been more profitable this Gen in the gaming sector and thus has a great budget for gaming related stuff. Bcus Playstation is the bread and butter of the company they will be focused on remaining the best and on top. How does tht look? Couod be having the strongest console at the best price like last Gen.
ABrokenToy
Member
So we can all expect videos from the DDF (Dealer Defense Force) either tonight or tomorrow, right?
pawel86ck
Banned
Your points are correct, but the problem is you dont know what technology AMD is really offering behind closed doors. You just GUESS they will use the same technology as in RX5700 GPU. Because next gen consoles will use HW RT, people can expect RDNA 1.5 or maybe even RDNA 2 architecture with improvements in regards to power consumption and heat, so therefore your estimation based on current knowledge cant be taken as a fact.
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TLZ
Banned
I duno what TimDawwwwwwg and co are up to.
LOL you contradicted yourself already, first you say, ''if Xbox sink, its fine, MS is a trillion dollar company''. Now you say ''wait its not like that!''.
Xbox doesnt have trillion dollar to burn of course not, but i guarantee you that they will be burning more than ever had, thats how you grow a business, you keep investing, and MS have that money, more than sony, and just like Azure they will make sure to pump that $ to grow Xbox just like Azure, because they found a model that works, with Xcloud and gamepass.
bitbydeath
Gold Member
He’s comparing against RDNA1 when RDNA2 is a complete re-design. That’s what’s being missed.
it_wasn't_me
Banned
According to Klee, there is a chance that PS5 has a double digit performance advantage in FLOPS over next Xbox :
www.resetera.com
Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT7| - nm
I'm just not discounting Microsoft's capabilities, that's all. It's still early days, especially for them.
www.resetera.com
My point is, even in best case scenario these TDP numbers are way, way out there.
Basically, if AMD improved TDP by 30% for next gen consoles, it would still not be enough for 11-12TF.
I think Sony went narrow and fast. 256 bit bus, narrow, but fastest available RAM. They also went with pure 40CU part and 4CUs deactivated, but high clocks to get most available performance/die size as possible. Also will come in handy with their BC method 18CU > 36CU and all that...
sonomamashine
Member
People should be happy about 9Tf+, 3/2 years ago i was expecting Vega 56.
To make it clear next gen TF number gonna be announced in GCN first, imagine people reaction after hearing 9TF or 10TF RDNA,
: well they couldnt beat Google Stadia, and they wont risk people misinderstanding it.Not everyone is following tech.
Klee doesn't know shit about xbox. Tom warren debunked himAccording to Klee, there is a chance that PS5 has a double digit performance advantage in FLOPS over next Xbox :
Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT7| - nm
I'm just not discounting Microsoft's capabilities, that's all. It's still early days, especially for them.
Negotiator
Member
RDNA1 has tons of empty spaces and mediocre transistor density compared to what 7nm can offer and this probably explains the ridiculous TDP. It's not a good fit for consoles.
nVidia is still competitive at 12nm, unlike Intel at 14nm. RDNA2 has lots of things to improve, especially when Ampere comes next year and it's only going to make nVidia GPUs perform much better at 7nm.
nVidia is still competitive at 12nm, unlike Intel at 14nm. RDNA2 has lots of things to improve, especially when Ampere comes next year and it's only going to make nVidia GPUs perform much better at 7nm.
Klee doesnt know shit, full stop.
Resetera is full of role playing insiders. Remember Cboat, Matt? Lol...
it_wasn't_me
Banned
Klee is pretty old now in gaming industry. You're new member here, but he was the member since "Gaming Age" forum.
Link, please, thanks!
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Taking the country of origin for console wars to bigoted levels I see.
Is in the same thread you linked, the whole lockhart thing.
it_wasn't_me
Banned
Oh, Lockhart, good. But power difference between Scarlet and PS5 has nothing to do with Lockhart. Cheers!
Absolutely, but keep it in mind GPU part in next gen consoles cannot be higher then 130W.
130W for GPU
30W for CPU
30W for RAM
15W for rest (I/O, mem controller, disk drive etc).
Current 40CU Navi with 9TF uses ~200W without RAM.
Basically you would need BIG improvements to get to acceptable level for 9TF GPU in consoles, let alone 11-12TF (which is just bogus).
Dude, if he dont know about ms plans he doesnt know about scarlett specs, just use your godamn brains, how he will compare the shit without knowing the other half of the shit, jesus.
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it_wasn't_me
Banned
LOL. Lockhart is one thing, dev kits target specs of PS5 and Scarlet available for devs are another thing.
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MaulerX
Member
According to Klee, there is a chance that PS5 has a double digit performance advantage in FLOPS over next Xbox :
Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT7| - nm
I'm just not discounting Microsoft's capabilities, that's all. It's still early days, especially for them.
Everything has to be taken with a huge grain of salt. When Tom Warren recently talked about Lockhart being alive, Klee doubled down and said Lockhart was not a thing. Which potentially makes everything else he's heard wrong as well.
it_wasn't_me
Banned
Again, like i said, power difference between Scarlet and PS5 has nothing to do with Lockhart R&D.
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Yes, and the devkits were not available for his ''dev friend'' or whatever to compare scarlett and PS5, Dante devkits just went wild recently
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
There’s no way the PS5 will have a lower CU count than the Pro, BC and all that joint.
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it_wasn't_me
Banned
LOL. Klee has bunch of dev friends. Btw. Scarlet devkits were shipped more than a month ago. Before XO19 event, not during the Spencet interview with Eurogamer when he said devkits were shipped. LOL
Let's see, Reiner said PS5 was more powerful, Colin, Jason Schreier, Klee..... People which have bunch od "dev friends" industry. What's the problem, man? It bothers you that PS5 is more powerful?
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Why not if it has 2x the clock? I mean, you guys expect 48-52CUs at 1.8-2.0GHZ? Because thats pipe dream.
Either you go wide and slow, or narrow and fast. I think entire Sony design philosophy for PS5 is narrow and fast.
Narrow bus, fast RAM. Narrow GPU, fast clocks. This will make for better yields and cheaper SOC, as well as easier BC.
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