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[davidjaffe]

I saw this super annoying tweet* yesterday from a game producer on two key game dev issues: Crunch and Unions.



Ok, well this tweet was super annoying to me. Obviously, your millage may vary.

Anyway, I wanted to make a video about. So...I did!



Jaffe

 

[TaroYamada]

I don't work in gaming but I do work in software. Sometimes crunch is necessary but in my experience it's almost always due to poor planning.

 

[Shadowplay1979]

Its funny because i work for a Japanese Trip A studio and even they dont push crunch..which is the opposite of what i would have expected from a japanese studio

 

[Lanrutcon]

Sounds like 2077's biting off more than it can chew.

 

[davidjaffe]

I don't work in gaming but I do work in software. Sometimes crunch is necessary but in my experience it's almost always due to poor planning.

I am only guessing but my guess is your software is pretty easy to understand at a level of what you want it to do? My brother writes databases, for example, and while the work can be VERY complicated and tough, they always begin with a clear sense of what the end goal is. Most software that is like that is much easier to manage. Games are very different because you have little idea what is fun and what works and often times even what the game is until you are deep into the process of making the game. Toss in making the TECH at the same time (for AAA 1st party games that don't often use off the shelf engines like Unreal) and you compound the problem.

Look, I used to ADORE the fantasy that one day video games would have screenplay like design docs where you can look at it and just KNOW what the game is and then properly manage the development based on that design spec. But it has never worked that way and unless you are building games in VERY locked down genres that don't look to innovate but only execute (i.e. a hidden object game, for ex)I can't see how it ever will work. Sadly.

 

[davidjaffe]

Sounds like 2077's biting off more than it can chew.

Until they release it. And then everyone- including those who hate on crunch- will chew the motherfucker up and love every bite. Therein lies the issue.

 

[GHG]

I don't work in gaming but I do work in software. Sometimes crunch is necessary but in my experience it's almost always due to poor planning.

Sometimes it's poor planning, sometimes it's feature creep, sometimes it's unforseen bugs, sometimes it's something entirely uncontrolled like a key member of the studio getting ill or needing unplanned time away from work.

At the end of the day we don't know what the exact reason is in this case.

It's best to let the developers themselves figure this out and fight for what they want, not some blue haired ticks on reddit who have never worked a day in their lives in a software development company. If the developers are coming out and saying they are being treated unjustly and want unions etc then people should be supportive, but until then it's just like any other industry with stringent deadlines.

 

[Shadowplay1979]

I am only guessing but my guess is your software is pretty easy to understand at a level of what you want it to do? My brother writes databases, for example, and while the work can be VERY complicated and tough, they always begin with a clear sense of what the end goal is. Most software that is like that is much easier to manage. Games are very different because you have little idea what is fun and what works and often times even what the game is until you are deep into the process of making the game. Toss in making the TECH at the same time (for AAA 1st party games that don't often use off the shelf engines like Unreal) and your compound the problem.

That depends on the title of course but yea, I think a better comparison is how we dont see F-22's or Apaches falling out of the sky all the time when you think of what is needed for them to work....every little nut and bolt is needed to be put together perfectly and has to be done with an understanding of the human error calculated into it. But those have very precise blueprints..now think of an F-22 that has to be designed with changing blue prints, on the fly and with parts that are constantly being redone or changed while the entire plane is in production..thats a triple a game.,

 

[JordanN]

Its funny because i work for a Japanese Trip A studio and even they dont push crunch..which is the opposite of what i would have expected from a japanese studio

What are your work hours like?

For example, isn't it very common for Japanese employees to work from 8am (morning) to 7pm (late evening)?

Whereas Western employees do try and stay within the 9am ~ 5pm schedule but with crunch, it forces them to work towards the night. Whenever I read some of these stories on glassdoor, these people verify this by claiming studios would pay for their dinner in exchange for staying a little extra.

 

[Shadowplay1979]

What are your work hours like?

For example, isn't it very common for Japanese employees to work from 8am (morning) to 7pm (late evening)?

Whereas Western employees do try and stay within the 9am ~ 5pm schedule but with crunch, it forces them to work towards the night.

So im in a strange situation..because i dont personally work in house atm, im still in the states( getting a Japanese visa is a long fight because i dont have a college degree and mostly self taught), however i do work full time and im on the slack all day and communicate with other employees so i know the hours people work. Its basically similar to American studios..core hours with 10-7 being the common workday.

 

[Lanrutcon]

Until they release it. And then everyone- including those who hate on crunch- will chew the motherfucker up and love every bite. Therein lies the issue.

I'd love to argue that you're wrong, but you're not.

 

[davidjaffe]

So im in a strange situation..because i dont personally work in house atm, im still in the states, however i do work full time and im on the slack all day and communicate with other employees so i know the hours people work. Its basically similar to American studios..core hours with 10-7 being the common workday.

Is your game AAA? Is it part of a series that has already been mostly defined and y'all are executing on a very clear and already proven spec/design? I've found that the answer to those questions almost always makes all the difference.

 

[Bonfires Down]

I very much doubt that it’s possible to just seamlessly outsource your game to India and keep the same quality. If they had the skills and experience we would already be getting AAA games from India by the dozen. But yes, there are chinese studios doing some very impressive work.

 

[davidjaffe]

I very much doubt that it’s possible to just seamlessly outsource your game to India and keep the same quality. If they had the skills and experience we would already be getting AAA games from India by the dozen. But yes, there are chinese studios doing some very impressive work.

Almost every video game you play already has major components being outsourced all over the world.

No one is suggesting outsourcing your game. The above the line folks (across all disciplines) stay in the states (or wherever) and assemble and design the product and manage it. But outsourcing models, levels, aspects of the code, sound, animation, etc.? Happens all the time already.

 

[Shadowplay1979]

Is your game AAA? Is it part of a series that has already been mostly defined and y'all are executing on a very clear and already proven spec/design? I've found that the answer to those questions almost always makes all the difference.

Not Defined...and def not a clear path however its early production so that has a lot to do with it. One of the reasons i was hired weirdly enough was because of the desire to bridge the gap between Japanese and American pipelines. So besides making environments ive been trying to help with new ways to make easier pipelines, better shaders, better ways to work on a project whose path is ever changing using malleable production ideas. I dont know how much i have been able to help from here because its different when you are not in house...but one employee has told me ive put them ahead of schedule by two months..not sure how true that is..but it does feel good.

 

[Shadowplay1979]

I very much doubt that it’s possible to just seamlessly outsource your game to India and keep the same quality. If they had the skills and experience we would already be getting AAA games from India by the dozen. But yes, there are chinese studios doing some very impressive work.

All your triple A games already outsource to china india and malaysia,trust me. A good deal of non hero or poi props are usually outsourced.

 

[MiyazakiHatesKojima]

Forbidden Knowledge ITT.

 

[Bullet Club]

I do want AAA Games.

We want crunch!

 

[Wolfgang Jr]

Crunch is not necessary AT ALL. A good game will sell well in November even if it was supposed to ship in April.

 

[meirl]

What do we want? „Massive AAA games that use all those nextgen bells and whistles.“

what DONT we want:
- no crunch time
- no microtransactions
- no loot boxes
- pay full price for games

 

[nikolino840]

Hire more people?

 

[Shadowplay1979]

Hire more people?

A better solution is better planning and better tools to help with overall production. I feel like the same production techniques get worked into a pipeline without working in enough margins of common error. If you have a production that shifts a lot then create a pipeline on wheels.

 

[Lanrutcon]

What do we want? „Massive AAA games that use all those nextgen bells and whistles.“

what DONT we want:
- no crunch time
- no microtransactions
- no loot boxes
- pay full price for games

I get what you're saying, but I don't know that its necessarily true for your adult or enthusiast gaming crowd. I know I play maybe 2 AAA games a year, and I'm willing to pay full price for games I'm really looking forward to. I'm a working adult though, and by the time I get to a lot of games they're already enjoying a discount. I get the feeling most gamers want to enjoy their games when the hype is fresh, so they buy games on launch and that means no discount. This is especially true if the game has a large multiplayer component. Crunch time is a management fuck up, like it always is.

There is no defending loot boxes though. None.

 

[davidjaffe]

I get what you're saying, but I don't know that its necessarily true for your adult or enthusiast gaming crowd. I know I play maybe 2 AAA games a year, and I'm willing to pay full price for games I'm really looking forward to. I'm a working adult though, and by the time I get to a lot of games they're already enjoying a discount. I get the feeling most gamers want to enjoy their games when the hype is fresh, so they buy games on launch and that means no discount. This is especially true if the game has a large multiplayer component. Crunch time is a management fuck up, like it always is.

There is no defending loot boxes though. None.

Crunch time is often times NOT a management fuck up. That's an easy scape goat. You want AAA with bleeding edge tech, new gameplay, fresh characters and IP, AND you want it polished AND playtested so it's fun? That takes iteration, time, and constant change (up to a point) and managing that to a degree there is little to no slip is near impossible.

You think the producers over at Sony Santa Monica, Naughty Dog, and Rockstart are just shit at their jobs? I've worked with many of these people first hand and I can assure you, that's simply nowhere near the case.

 

[Alexios]

Very different reactions in this recent-ish gaf thread about the issue.

Polygon: Why I Worship Crunch

.

www.neogaf.com

Guess everyone who wasn't pro-crunch there is eating their words now because some david says polygon was spot-on? Some very good comments there also like this one anyway.

Btw, Minecraft also isn't AAA, you can't mix and match completely different arguments to suit your narrative. It basically works against your shallow points as a whole, with your logic and misrepresentation of the various subjects Minecraft could be used to show AAA as a whole doesn't matter and doesn't do any shit a garage dev working on his own time can't achieve so hey Ubisoft, pack your shit, you're out. You can't say VA doesn't matter and point to Minecraft sales. Plenty other games sell on their stories and you need good VA, good writing, good anything, to make that compelling and present it well enough to sell on their strengths (and clearly not all are gunning to be the top selling of the decade either). Can you find that in good enough quality outsourced to South Korea? Go ahead then. Also, when they announce crunch time is on like CDP just did, developers could pressure and do have leverage, you can't outsource Cyberpunk to South Korea today because your devs refused to work the extra hours you asked of them today. But then you have Carmack and Jaffe and other out of touch folks tell them that's just the industry they're in and it can never change and how they're not pro crunch but you know that's just how it is so bend over, fucker. Well fuck your industry and AAA, they do not drive the industry forward as you want to claim either, they just don't, they just wave money and sure, waving money works to grab the masses. That's like saying talent and experience and skill doesn't matter in any of these corporations. Crunch is forced, Carmack or you wanting to work in your office/home/whatever for 100 hours a week is fine as long as you don't expect those under you to do the same, have preferential treatment to those who choose do the same, fire those who don't choose to do the same and so on, showing it's not a choice. I've worked day and night on this or that project I had a passion for, demanding that passion at a CEO's whim is silly. Btw there's also the small issue of overworked folks not actually getting paid for it.

 

[davidjaffe]

Crunch is not necessary AT ALL. A good game will sell well in November even if it was supposed to ship in April.

You are just talking. You are basing this off no first hand experience at all. I know if feels good to type and say, but you think the people who make games and manage the process are morons? You can do better? Dude, these are some of the sharpest people in the business. It's simply a very hard problem and it rarely gets easier. Can it be improved? Sure. But saying Crunch isn't needed simply shows a lack of understanding of the process. Which is fine. You may have never worked in games. Not a problem; I get that. But when people in the trenches (be it me or a few others in this thread) tell you that it's not often a management issue (but instead it's a 'building the plane and flying it WHILE designing it' issue) perhaps you could at least consider that we're not lying to you .

Jaffe

 

[Lanrutcon]

Crunch time is often times NOT a management fuck up. That's an easy scape goat. You want AAA with bleeding edge tech, new gameplay, fresh characters and IP, AND you want it polished AND playtested so it's fun? That takes iteration, time, and constant change (up to a point) and managing that to a degree there is little to no slip is near impossible.

You think the producers over at Sony Santa Monica, Naughty Dog, and Rockstart are just shit at their jobs? I've worked with many of these people first hand and I can assure you, that's simply nowhere near the case.

Oh, you're right. It's the fault of the people who don't get to make the decisions, the plans or set the dates.

My bad, dudes.

 

[Elektro Demon]

How about they hire more people during crunch to avoid people burning out.
Just a thought.

 

[nowhat]

How about they hire more people during crunch to avoid people burning out.
Just a thought.

Brooks's law - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[davidjaffe]

Minecraft also isn't AAA, you can't mix and match completely different arguments to suit your narrative. It basically works against your shallow points as a whole, with your logic and misrperestnation of the various subjects Minecraft Minecraft could be used to show AAA as a whole doesn't matter and doesn't do shit a garage dev working on his own time can't achieve.You can't say VA doesn't matter and point to Minecraft sales. Plenty other games sell on their stories and you need good VA, good writing, good anything, to make that compelling and present it well enough to sell on their strengths (and clearly not all are gunning to be the top selling of the decade either). Also, when they announce crunch time is on like CDP just did, developers could pressure and do have leverage, you can't outsource Cyberpunk to South Korea today because your devs refused to work the extra hours. But then you have Carmack and Jaffe and other out of touch folks tell them that's just the industry they're in and it can never change and how they're not pro crunch but you know that's just how it is. Well fuck your industry and AAA games too, they do not drive the industry forward as you want to claim either, they just don't, they just wave money and sure, waving money works to grab the masses. That's like saying talent and experience is just interchangeable for these corporations with random outsourcing to South Korea. Crunch is forced, Carmack or you wanting to work in your office for 100 hours a week is fine as long as you don't expect those under you to do the same, have preferential treatment to those who choose do the same, fire those who don't choose to do the same and so on. I've worked day and night on this I had a passion for myself, being asked to have that passion at a CEO's whim is silly.

I showed the top 10 games of the decade and the top 20 games of 2019 to point out the VAST majority do not rely on great VA. I'm not saying great VA is of no value. I'm saying if you are negotiating with a publisher- who has a war chest FILLED with cash from games that don't require great VA- then you have very little leverage to get them to bargain with you in regards to that specific line item.

You're too emotional to actually have this conversation. I'm actually pro union and I'm trying to find/understand a solve to one of the biggest flaws in unionizing games (the lack of leverage on the part of below the line workers). But look at you go, man. Look at how upset and angry and pre-judgey you are. It's bizarre. It's like you don't REALLY want to have the conversation and help solve the problem. You just want to rant and signal and let everyone know that 'PEOPLE WITH MONEY BAD AND THEY HURT ALL OTHER PEOPLE AND THEY NEED TO GO SHUT UP AND GO POO POO KAA KAA!'. Got it. Great conversation, sir. You're a gem.

 

[TLZ]

No to Crunch. Yes to good health.

 

[Alexios]

I showed the top 10 games of the decade and the top 20 games of 2019 to point out the VAST majority do not rely on great VA. I'm not saying great VA is of no value. I'm saying if you are negotiating with a publisher- who has a war chest FILLED with cash from games that don't require great VA- then you have very little leverage to get them to bargain with you in regards to that specific line item.

You're too emotional to actually have this conversation. I'm actually pro union and I'm trying to find/understand a solve to one of the biggest flaws in unionizing games (the lack of leverage on the part of below the line workers). But look at you go, man. Look at how upset and angry and pre-judgey you are. It's bizarre. It's like you don't REALLY want to have the conversation and help solve the problem. You just want to rant and signal and let everyone know that 'PEOPLE WITH MONEY BAD AND THEY HURT ALL OTHER PEOPLE AND THEY NEED TO GO SHUT UP AND GO POO POO KAA KAA!'. Got it. Great conversation, sir. You're a gem.

I'm not angry, that's a silly assumption. As silly as the rest of your drivel and misrepresentation of things I said as you misrepresent all the topics in your video. You're out of touch.

 

[davidjaffe]

I'm not angry, that's a silly assumption. As silly as the rest of your drivel and misrepresentation of things I said as you misrepresent all the topics in your video. You're out of touch.

You wrote: But then you have Carmack and Jaffe and other out of touch folks tell them that's just the industry they're in and it can never change and how they're not pro crunch but you know that's just how it is. Well fuck your industry and AAA games too,

Seems angry to me. Goodnite, friend.

 

[Alexios]

Oh yes, fuck, what a bad upset-like word. Lol? Were you an angsty horny juvenile minded teenage boy when shaping God of War then? Whatever, no discussion to be had here, just self fellatio, who makes youtube videos when they want a serious conversation, right? Nobody. Goodnite indeed.

Big bad corps will just go to South Korea if you ask for worker rights. So, may as well accept lower wages, longer hours, outside crunch because they can still wave outsourcing at you as a threat then. Where's the bottom in that hole? Nowhere, there will always be a cheaper country, duhduhduh.

 

[davidjaffe]

No to Crunch. Yes to good health.

I'm a huge fan of good health.
I don't like crunch at all.
But if you want to make next gen, best of breed AAA video games (or any product?) Then it's probably gonna require crunch.

 

[Lanrutcon]

I'm a huge fan of good health.
I don't like crunch at all.
But if you want to make next gen, best of breed AAA video games (or any product?) Then it's probably gonna require crunch.

I haven't watched your video yet, but do you talk about what you'd change in the industry, or what you'd do to minimize crunch on AAA projects?

 

[Zero7]

A lot of devs bring it on themselves, by announcing release dates far too early. It just puts more pressure on them and it pisses off the consumer when they can't meat the deadline.

 

[davidjaffe]

I haven't watched your video yet, but do you talk about what you'd change in the industry, or what you'd do to minimize crunch on AAA projects?

No. Because I don't have a solve. If there is to be a solve, it will be this:

#1- Someone figures out how to unionize (which takes into account outsourcing below the line work to non unionized areas of the world). To me, this is no small solve. But hey, if it's solvable,great. I'm all ears.

#2- Unionization will make game budgets for AAA games go thru the roof.

#3- Publishers will look at what sells in massive numbers (things like Minecraft, Rocket League, Call of Duty MP, Fortnite, Roblox) and go, 'Ok, the days of chasing brilliant, bleeding gen visuals are over FOR THE MOST PART given that we can make BANK without having to make photo real worlds w/life like anims and pro voice actors,etc.)

#4- Games will continue on but they will be designed within the union forced budgets and thus the production value of photo real games will drop and less of those will get made.

I could be wrong but I don't understand why it would not go this way. Again, big studios will swing for the fences 1-2 times/year perhaps but 90% of the games will follow the pattern I've described.

That's my take.

Jaffe

 

[Mista]

davidjaffe my man I’m so glad to see you here again interacting with the people. As for crunch sometimes its necessary even if you had the perfect plan and all that.

I work as an Aircraft Engineer and 90% of the time we get the plane fixed in perfect timing with perfect round check-ups. Yet we have to crunch sometimes due to many planes taking off just a very short time after the one departed. We can’t control that, we can’t control the demand nor the time.

My shift is 12 hours and some days I work for 16 to 18 hours a shift because of what I mentioned above. Never complained nor made a big scene out of it because it’s part of the game at the end

What about you though? Did you and the team crunch while making God of War?

 

[davidjaffe]

davidjaffe my man I’m so glad to see you here again interacting with the people. As for crunch sometimes its necessary even if you had the perfect plan and all that.

I work as an Aircraft Engineer and 90% of the time we get the plane fixed in perfect timing with perfect round check-ups. Yet we have to crunch sometimes due to many planes taking off just a very short time after the one departed. We can’t control that, we can’t control the demand nor the time.

My shift is 12 hours and some days I work for 16 to 18 hours a shift because of what I mentioned above. Never complained nor made a big scene out of it because it’s part of the game at the end

What about you though? Did you and the team crunch while making God of War?

We crunched like MOTHERFUCKERS. And it seems like that hasn't stopped at many/any of these next-gen/AAA dev houses.

Someone above mentioned working on planes. And yeah, crunch at the end. But his comment about getting a NEW plane designed, tested, flown, and mass produced felt VERY MUCH like making games. If you are making another DC-X (I dunno planes) and 'simply' assembling it, that's one thing. I imagine there is crunch to hit deadlines but it's manageable. But try hitting a deadline to ship with a brand new plane that's never been created before with tons of new features? That's a whole diff ball of wax. THAT'S making most AAA games.

 

[Lanrutcon]

#3- Publishers will look at what sells in massive numbers (things like Minecraft, Rocket League, Call of Duty MP, Fortnite, Roblox) and go, 'Ok, the days of chasing brilliant, bleeding gen visuals are over FOR THE MOST PART given that we can make BANK without having to make photo real worlds w/life like anims and pro voice actors,etc.)

Question: why don't they do that already then? If they can sell massive numbers of a product that's easier/quicker/cheaper to make, why are they spending massive amounts of bank climbing the AAA mountain?

 

[davidjaffe]

Question: why don't they do that already then? If they can sell massive numbers of a product that's easier/quicker/cheaper to make, why are they spending massive amounts of bank climbing the AAA mountain?

Because right now THE WAR OF PRODUCTION VALUE is a way to win. If you can toss 90 million dollars and the audience who adores production value gets you your cash back in a weekend then it's worth it. How many times do gamers on this very forum lose their shit over production value without actually going, 'Ya know, this gameplay is what we've been playing for a decade?' The answer: all the damn time. And so since publishers don't care that much about crunch, they can win- at the moment- because the money of fighting the production value war is worth it. Unions will make that a non starter for most games and thus they will be forced to look at other types of game genres/art styles that will let them win for less money (and these are harder games to make work and sell...trust me, tossing production value at the problem is an easy solve as most gamers lap prod value up ((even with stale gameplay)) like starving dogs).

 

[Herr Edgy]

I'm of the opinion that AAA games need to die as they exist now.
Crunch being just one of the reasons.

Let AA make its triumphant return!

 

[Lanrutcon]

Because right now THE WAR OF PRODUCTION VALUE is a way to win. If you can toss 90 million dollars and the audience who adores production value gets you your cash back in a weekend then it's worth it. How many times do gamers on this very forum lose their shit over production value without actually going, 'Ya know, this gameplay is what we've been playing for a decade?' The answer: all the damn time. And so since publishers don't care that much about crunch, they can win- at the moment- because the money of fighting the production value war is worth it. Unions will make that a non starter for most games and thus they will be forced to look at other types of game genres/art styles that will let them win for less money (and these are harder games to make work and sell...trust me, tossing production value at the problem is an easy solve as most gamers lap prod value up ((even with stale gameplay)) like starving dogs).

Right. So you're saying right now, as long as crunch is an option and unionization hasn't happened, we get our shinies.

Makes me not want to buy shinies, man. Gotta tell you.

Side question: doesn't this mean that as long as tossing production value at the problem is an option, gameplay is stagnating and there's no real reason to evolve it further?

 

[Mista]

We crunched like MOTHERFUCKERS. And it seems like that hasn't stopped at many/any of these next-gen/AAA dev houses.

Someone above mentioned working on planes. And yeah, crunch at the end. But his comment about getting a NEW plane designed, tested, flown, and mass produced felt VERY MUCH like making games. If you are making another DC-X (I dunno planes) and 'simply' assembling it, that's one thing. I imagine there is crunch to hit deadlines but it's manageable. But try hitting a deadline to ship with a brand new plane that's never been created before with tons of new features? That's a whole diff ball of wax. THAT'S making most AAA games.

I know that very well my man that’s why I said that I never complained because thats all part of the game. Not saying I’m supporting it by any means mate but if that what it takes then so be it

All the exhaustion from crunch fades away in a second when you see what you have done has been well received and liked. I got promoted to team leader just because the captains recommended me and gave in a good word about me

Stuff like this makes me forgot about all the crunch exhaustion and yes, having a tough skin too

 

[Herr Edgy]

Side question: doesn't this mean that as long as tossing production value at the problem is an option, gameplay is stagnating and there's no real reason to evolve it further?

I mean have you looked at AAA in the last decade?

 

[davidjaffe]

Side question: doesn't this mean that as long as tossing production value at the problem is an option, gameplay is stagnating and there's no real reason to evolve it further?

100 damn percent. Which is why I lose interest in AAA. My NON AAA games have NEVER been as successful as the AAA stuff I got to work on (which prob speaks volumes about my skills as a nuts and bolts designer vs. my writing/world building/tuning skills) BUT even so, I love the gameplay of video games and yeah, if you want the deep, meaty, cool, fresh game play? Best to look towards smaller titles. Not a rule, but almost one.

 

[Virex]

Unions don't give a shit about their members. You have to pay to be part of a union. That's what the union cares about. Occasionally they will larp and and people think unions are doing something. Unions are shit. End of story.

 

[MilkyJoe]

Or just delay them?

 

[Virex]

I'm not angry, that's a silly assumption. As silly as the rest of your drivel and misrepresentation of things I said as you misrepresent all the topics in your video. You're out of touch.

So how many games have you shipped?