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Want AAA Games? Say YES to crunch and NO to unions...

ROMhack

Member
David's views are welcomed. Very interesting to read.

Second, unions are generally annoying from my experience. They exist to protect worker rights and that's good in theory but from personal experience they keep the vested interests of those who are prone to doing less work when the pressure is off. That might not necessarily be the case in the games industry because I'm sure people are passionate but it sure feels like it sometimes in my job.

More personally, I feel motivation is a huge factor in ensuring the success of any product. The important thing is getting everybody on the same wavelength and that comes from good project management. If it means delays then so be it as I can't imagine a complex piece of software like a videogame has a clear structure from start to finish. Crunch included, as long as people aren't forced to sleep at work.
 
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Woo-Fu

Banned
Spent most of my IT career supporting devs and the only times I was willing to work indefinite hours was when something critical unexpectedly broke. If, on the other hand, it was a matter of poor planning they knew to ask somebody else.

It is one of the benefits of being a contractor instead of an employee. They have to pay through the nose for that sort of bullshit and even then it is still optional.
 
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davidjaffe

The Fucking MAN.
Not looking to get into it with anyone so whatever. My comment was from my 20 years experience, if you have different experience so be it. Everyone plays the game their way with a lot of people being played obviously.

'I guess the game makers and management at Sony Santa Monica, Naughty Dog, Rockstar, CD Project Red, etc. need to get good' I didn't say this although if they are doing unpaid overtime then yes there are serious problems with their development process that they should address.

I'm not looking to get into it either. But you are making a very interesting and bold claim, especially in light of the perceived quality of the studios that DO have to crunch (Santa Monica, ND, etc.) Naturally anyone reading such a bold claim would want examples/details of this studio that is so good at AAA game production/creation that they've managed to avoid/do away with crunch. So what is the studio in Japan that is capable of accomplishing this feat and/or what are the games that you've worked on that have been so well managed that they've been able to ship AAA quality on time with zero (or ALMOST zero) crunch? Thx!
 

CuNi

Member
I'm not looking to get into it either. But you are making a very interesting and bold claim, especially in light of the perceived quality of the studios that DO have to crunch (Santa Monica, ND, etc.) Naturally anyone reading such a bold claim would want examples/details of this studio that is so good at AAA game production/creation that they've managed to avoid/do away with crunch. So what is the studio in Japan that is capable of accomplishing this feat and/or what are the games that you've worked on that have been so well managed that they've been able to ship AAA quality on time with zero (or ALMOST zero) crunch? Thx!

I don't know how exactly it works in game dev as I'm just a software dev, but from personal experience I know that if we have to do "crunch" it's only 10 instead of 8h a day because we're not legally allowed to work more, get paid for it and it also always is due to poor management or pr claims. I work on a project rn where I'm so close to just leaving the project because the project leads keeps promising the client features and functions without asking me when or if they even work. I'm fairly certain it's not so different for game devs.

I would welcome smaller studios and smaller scaled games for once as tbh nearly all of the most recent triple A games were poor games in my opinion, but that's just me.
 
With all due respect, If AAA crunch is essentially about "winning", then AAA games, and its respective industry, might as well collapse. AAA games have been devoid of any genuine passion for almost a decade. I can't see how more of it will change that.

That said, overtime is some times necessary to complete a job, but doing it constantly and continuously can have consequences on productivity and impact the final product.
 
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OmegaSupreme

advanced basic bitch
How is crunch paid? Are all game developers salaried? If so that would suck but if you're getting paid by the hour some crunch is probably worth it to many. I enjoy overtime myself.
 

rofif

Can’t Git Gud
I mean... I couldn't care less?
I pay for the product. It's not up to me how they make it.
We but a lot of things and all of those are "made in china"... and I bet some factory workers there would love the "office crunch"
 

John Day

Member
OP’s observation is a sound and realist take on it. In an ideal world it would be otherwise. But this all a chain that starts on demand and ends with the product and on and on.
 

Raven117

Member
I mean... I couldn't care less?
I pay for the product. It's not up to me how they make it.
We but a lot of things and all of those are "made in china"... and I bet some factory workers there would love the "office crunch"
Not to compare issues, but yeah, I don’t care either. (Care more about China issues, that’s a real problem).
Lots of jobs get tight at a deadline.
 

Arkam

Member
Having worked on over a dozen AAA games, I can say with certainty they all could have been made without any crunch.... IF we didnt have a set ship date. That single thing is what leads to crunch. You come up with a design that your leadership thinks they can produce in 9 months, you ask publisher for 12months to launch so it can be "really polished" and then mid alpha you realize you actually needed 18months and shift the team to mandatory 10am-10pm (if we meet our bug fix daily quota). ANd bam you get a AAA game done on time!


Now unionizing.... THAT would definitely hinder quality. Game development does not need any more committee based decision making or bad eggs you cannot fire. Thats what gives you high budget turds.
 
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I gotta be honest most people in this thread are beyond unrealistic. Check the recent thread for the new Destiny 2 puzzle and how people found it's reward un-rewarding, what did they expect from it? Who knows but probably something that crunch could have helped create!
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
Unionizing is never, ever going to happen for the reasons Jaffe outlined in the video.

Its beyond obvious how impractical it would be given the nature of the business. Hell I've been banging on about this forever. and its part of why I find this whole thing being brought up as an internet talking-point so annoying.

The video really nails it by focusing on the lack of leverage within a globalized industry.
 

dDoc

Member
The sad and harsh reality is that the lower personnel is much easier to replace than the top ones, which is why they are called key personnel, because the key ones are responsible for directing the project, for example, most of the Rare key personnel left before the Microsoft acqusition and their games after it never got the same reception.

Still doesnt excuse expecting someone to put in longer work hours for no monetary gain. Not directing this at you cause I get what you are saying, however in history you know who worked for free? Word starts with an S
 

Enjay

Banned
Programmers are already a bunch of incompetent entitled babies I can only imagine how bad video games would get if they unionized.

Also damn davidjaffe is here fishing for an audience now.....lol smh.
 

Arkam

Member
Still doesnt excuse expecting someone to put in longer work hours for no monetary gain. Not directing this at you cause I get what you are saying, however in history you know who worked for free? Word starts with an S


Comparing game devs to Slaves?!?! Come on man, most (non-QA) are making six figure incomes. And more importantly they know what they are signing up for and can leave at anytime for a better work/life balance.
 

Ten_Fold

Member
Health is wealth, I'm not into game dev too much, and the people I know isn't working AAA soo they dont really experience crunch all that much. I wonder what can be done realistically.
 

dDoc

Member
Comparing game devs to Slaves?!?! Come on man, most (non-QA) are making six figure incomes. And more importantly they know what they are signing up for and can leave at anytime for a better work/life balance.

I dunno in each part of the world how this is handled, where I come from you are hired to do a job for a specific amount of hours. You go over that, you get paid over time. Work to live, not live to work! What a nice motto :)
 

Fuz

Banned
In my country, it is kind of illegal. You can work extra hours, but they have to be paid, and only a certain amount per week can be allowed. If not the government will go to you, for abuse. Also, the extra time is only if the people accept, and cannot be forced.
This in theory.

Meanwhile, in the real world...
 

oagboghi2

Member
I dunno in each part of the world how this is handled, where I come from you are hired to do a job for a specific amount of hours. You go over that, you get paid over time. Work to live, not live to work! What a nice motto :)
No one is objecting to that.

We are objecting to calling people slaves
 

NikuNashi

Member
I'm not looking to get into it either. But you are making a very interesting and bold claim, especially in light of the perceived quality of the studios that DO have to crunch (Santa Monica, ND, etc.) Naturally anyone reading such a bold claim would want examples/details of this studio that is so good at AAA game production/creation that they've managed to avoid/do away with crunch. So what is the studio in Japan that is capable of accomplishing this feat and/or what are the games that you've worked on that have been so well managed that they've been able to ship AAA quality on time with zero (or ALMOST zero) crunch? Thx!

Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately I am not willing to expose personal details online in the current climate so take it or leave it if you believe what I am saying. I do currently work on a Team that has a no overtime policy in place team wide and has very strict timescales (1.5 years total dev time pre production to master). In the month leading upto Alpha a 1 hour per day max optional overtime system was put in place. The ethos of the team is family and emphasis is put on the health and happiness of the team members. We recently released an over 90 metacritic game that has sold very well (it was well loved on here and it was very nice reading the comments).
 

Bigrx1

Banned
I'm not too familiar with this issue to be honest - are employees dealing with crunch like this at least paid for their overtime or is it one of those fucked up typical salary jobs where they get nothing for the extra hours over 40?
 
Yikes, by the tone of some of these replies, you’d think these devs are slaving away in forced labor camps in Siberia cranking out license plates lol 1) stop working for the companies you hate 2) stop buying games from companies that engage in shady business practices, if you truly care. By the way, most of the products you’re ultilizing right now we’re made in countries with true slave labor (compared to game devs working in SF “crunching” occasionally). But since the AirPods are cute, the Nike’s comfortable, and TV’s big, we’ll just look away. I mean, those game devs, they really got it hard with all those health and mental well being sacrifices—I’m sure the soy lattes help take the edge off though ;)
 

Shmunter

Member
No one is objecting to that.

We are objecting to calling people slaves

CDPR crunching....

exit-to-eden-1994-shutterstock-editorial-5879859a.jpg
 

NikuNashi

Member
I'm not too familiar with this issue to be honest - are employees dealing with crunch like this at least paid for their overtime or is it one of those fucked up typical salary jobs where they get nothing for the extra hours over 40?

I would say most people are not paid for overtime from my experience. I worked in one company where written into the contract was that the first 40 hours of overtime per month are already included in your salary so in order for people to actually make any additional income they have to work at least 41 hours extra per month.

But either way paid or not the pressure for people to do it especially if you have a family is wrong and any producer or project manager who schedules their project around other peoples free time isn't competent at their job.
 

NOLA_Gaffer

Banned
At some point the industry is gonna have to come to a hard decision. Not everything needs to be an open-world game with over 200 hours of gameplay with 8k textures if the true cost is your employees' wellbeing.
 
Creative industries will always be subject to this sort of thing. The fact is most creative Devs love their work. An animation artist or a coding programmer loves what they do. They get high on overcoming challenges and personal bests. Crunch time in the creative industry isn't as awful a concept as working 12 hours at an assembly line or in an accounting office. Not even close. Realistically even in a 12-16 hour day you only spend 30% of that time working. Being cooped up inside sucks but many of these places have gyms and bars. Not sure about the specifics regarding cd project red, but I'm certain they aren't cramped up in some shoe-esque factory sweating away.
 
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dDoc

Member
At some point the industry is gonna have to come to a hard decision. Not everything needs to be an open-world game with over 200 hours of gameplay with 8k textures if the true cost is your employees' wellbeing.

How much profit did a game like RDR2 generate? How many MILLIONS that is? How much was that recent new exec given at Activision? 15 Mill per annum? And they cant reward people who put in extra time? So in my book, you work extra hours then you get compensated for them. Not because "you are expected to" or "you knew what you were getting into" you shouldnt be rewarded.

Given not every game is this financially successful but still.
 

Kenpachii

Member
Ah, the international sport of "look at me! The solution is so easy!"

Sure man. Keep telling yourself that you know better when you don't know squat. 🤷‍♂️

Because it's that easy. Every first world country is laughing at US work ethics and how there people are exploited to the end of the world for maximum gains and they are to dumb to even realize it themselves.

U guys got nothing. No vacation days, no healthcare, no sickdays, no extra money like a 13th month or vacation money, no parental leave, no maximum length of work week.

U guys already work more then anybody else in the first world developed country's by far and now u want to add crunch hours with it because fuck your workers.

Then u got those idiots that say, welp at least we don't die from cobalt poisoning so i guess being a slave to a company is great. Because it could be worse just look at 3rd world country's.

Look david jaffe is afraid of unions because he is afraid everything disappearing overseas.

The question he should ask himself why are they not already moving oversea's to start with? wages in second and 3rd world country's are far far far lower. The reason CD projekt red can push high quality games like witcher 3 out for a fraction of the budget of other games is because wages are non existent.They sit in a country that's laughable on worker rights. So why are all the major game company's not shifting towards it? Or downgrading there worker rights even more to fight against markets they can't compete against anyway because they function in entire different environments. average polish wage is a 5th of that of a american as example.

Why is EA not located in india or china or mexico or poland to create there entire games? can't be that hard to make a new fifa.

If they wanted to flee they would already have done it, which makes that whole point useless.

What workers need to do is make unions that cover everything on worker level in all segments together instead of your own little bubble that lobby and force laws into the country that protects people from being exploited on a country wide solution. Because if you leave it up to the company's u get 8 month crunch time exploit scenario's seen as normal. Basically you clearly can't leave it up to company's. These company's have no limit to there greed. And its not like the top doesn't pay themselves 15 million in fucking yearly salary's or make massive bank while they are at it. While the workers gets told they are so important its almost like they cure cancer ( even those have normal worker hours ), but but but now work 80 hours a week mate. And they even believe it on top of it because they are to fucking dumb to realize the situation they are in.

American Average Work Hours:
  • At least 134 countries have laws setting the maximum length of the work week; the U.S. does not.
  • In the U.S., 85.8 percent of males and 66.5 percent of females work more than 40 hours per week.
  • According to the ILO, “Americans work 137 more hours per year than Japanese workers, 260 more hours per year than British workers, and 499 more hours per year than French workers.”
  • Using data by the U.S. BLS, the average productivity per American worker has increased 400% since 1950. One way to look at that is that it should only take one-quarter the work hours, or 11 hours per week, to afford the same standard of living as a worker in 1950 (or our standard of living should be 4 times higher). Is that the case? Obviously not. Someone is profiting, it’s just not the average American worker.
American Paid Vacation Time & Sick Time:

no-vacation-nation-revisited-fig1-2014-04.jpg

Here a example of how easy it is:

Guerrilla Games wants to release games faster

According to CEO Hermen Hulst, Guerrilla hopes to shorten the development time for big games like Horizon, which took around six and a half years to create (and certainly didn't look any worse for it). "We want to release games in two or three years, both new titles and games based on existing titles," he said. New faces aside, the extra space will be used for audio and motion capture.

Guess it does work.


Guess where they operate in amsterdam

Guess what rules they have to apply towards?

Working hours
According to Dutch law you are allowed to work a maximum of 9 hours a day and 45 hours a week. However, a person is only allowed to work 2080 hours a year, thus the average working week is 40 hours. The working week is usually Monday to Friday, depending on the type of work. Also, there is a legal minimum of one day's rest a week, normally Sunday

Go ask dutch employee's if they want that protection to be removed and they will laugh at you in your face or think u are mentally ill, or some kind of slave wager.

Your boss will straight up harass u if you don't take days of because they get massive fined otherwise.

And instead of moving more hours into a week they are busy with decreasing it, get more parental leave etc.
 
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Leprech

Member
Having worked on over a dozen AAA games, I can say with certainty they all could have been made without any crunch.... IF we didnt have a set ship date. That single thing is what leads to crunch. You come up with a design that your leadership thinks they can produce in 9 months, you ask publisher for 12months to launch so it can be "really polished" and then mid alpha you realize you actually needed 18months and shift the team to mandatory 10am-10pm (if we meet our bug fix daily quota). ANd bam you get a AAA game done on time!


Now unionizing.... THAT would definitely hinder quality. Game development does not need any more committee based decision making or bad eggs you cannot fire. Thats what gives you high budget turds.
Well duh if you have more time its better lol but time is money a game taking 3 years vs the now planned 2 years is more expensive.
 

dDoc

Member
And what about the tax breaks publishers/gaming companies get? Apparently they might pay zero tax in a whole year. But they still cant afford to reward an employee who has been made/worked more than the regular hours? These guys sell ice to eskimos :D
 
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