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[NoLootBoxDev]

In my country, it is kind of illegal. You can work extra hours, but they have to be paid, and only a certain amount per week can be allowed. If not the government will go to you, for abuse. Also, the extra time is only if the people accept, and cannot be forced.

 

[Paltheos]

So let me rephrase it then.
How about hiring more professional people?

The... same still applies. Just because they're professionals and (should be) adaptable doesn't mean they can pick up all the minutiae of your particular system in a timely manner or are familiar with all the pitfalls you've already dealt with for your project. The primary objective is to save time, but you now have an employee who already knows the work instead spending time explaining to another how shit works.

Just speculating here, but both concerns seem more likely to materialize in this kind of situation. What kind of prospects are you attracting to a temporary project? Probably young, inexperienced kids looking to get a foot in the door and some hands-on for their resume.

I'm an outsider though, so my opinion should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[Elektro Demon]

The... same still applies. Just because they're professionals and (should be) adaptable doesn't mean they can pick up all the minutiae of your particular system in a timely manner or are familiar with all the pitfalls you've already dealt with for your project. The primary objective is to save time, but you now have an employee who already knows the work instead spending time explaining to another how shit works.

Just speculating here, but both concerns seem more likely to materialize in this kind of situation. What kind of prospects are you attracting to a temporary project? Probably young, inexperienced kids looking to get a foot in the door and some hands-on for their resume.

I'm an outsider though, so my opinion should be taken with a grain of salt.

I' m an outsider too, I talk out of my ass
I didn't mean hiring more people during crunch, I meant at the start of the project they should hire more people then they would normally. Sure, it would mean less profit for the big cats and that's why they won't do it. Bastards.

 

[A.Romero]

I haven't watched the video (mad respect, Mr. Jaffe) but I do have an opinion about this.

There are two sides to this issue: the industry and the consumers.

On the industry side, we can see publishers and devs:

- As it has been discussed, employees always have the option to move to another company or change careers to something more suited to their needs. Developers work hours pretty much anywhere other than non IT companies (I know this very well as I have almost 20 years experience in the field, working in 2 countries).
- Everybody knows game development is a passion driven job. Game devevelopment is more complicated than your run of the mill app development so people with that set of skills can make a pretty good career working for a regular company making office software (meaning is not like they have no options). Getting great benefits, paid OT and many other perks. Hell, look at the way companies like Google and Microsoft treat their employees.
- Game development outsourcing has been a thing for a while. Even art for well loved and protected franchises is outsourced. Games can and will be outsourced or companies will be built somewhere else. Just as manufacturing went to third world countries. Believe me, the infrastructure to do something can be built anywhere. It's just that right now there is little incentive to do so.
- Development is easier than past decades and tools are built to have teams collaborating all around the world.

On the consumer side:

- People don't really care for workers rights. If we did, before trying to help developers would be way down the list. Kids working in manufacturing in other countries would be at the top. Yet, people keep buying at Walmart and high end electronic devices anywhere.
- The consumer market is pretty price sensitive. If consumers had the chance to pay twice as much for an iPhone in order to have it built within the US with unionized workers, most wouldn't. Meaning, they would go for the cheaper third world manufactured option. Same with video games.
- Most consumers are not willing to pay more for entertainment. We've been paying $60 USD for recently released games for over a decade now and people still bitch about DLC models. Moreover, a lot of people wait for sales to get their games or just plain pirate them.


So basically unionizing would only take development elsewhere and consumers suck at protecting employees. Employees can do that themselves. The US labour market is barely regulated because capitalism sees the relationship between an employer and an employee as a commercial relationship that needs to be as free as possible. Countries like Mexico regulate these relationships and things like severance pay are the law.

It's not about mismanagement all the time, most of the time is a money conversation. Are consumers willing to pay more for employees to be taken care? Not if we look at history and other industries.

So please, next time you complain about DLC models, shorter games, bugs and all that stuff, remember how much you care about the employees and how important is for them to not be exploited. Pay up full price for the games and hope for a change... Or just stop getting AAA games so they will finally go away and we can go back to play small productions from small indie employee-oriented development houses.

 

[Quasicat]

With crunch happening, how are employees compensated for this across the industry? Are they salaried so there is no overtime and if so what does the average developer make?
I’m coming from public education where the only crunch is pacing yourself in your curriculum so that you have the kids perform well on their benchmark assessments.
I work between 12 and 18 hours a day and make around $60,000. It sucks sometimes, but I don’t mind since I really like working with my students.
I’m just trying to draw a line in how these careers are similar and different since I haven’t worked in the private sector in almost 20 years.

 

[lukilladog]

What we can do as consumers is to not support companies that are known to crunch, paying more is not the only option, the industry will take 50 billion revenue instead of 150 billion if they have to.

 

[KingdomHeartsFan]

I just started my new career and I'm desperate for money so I'm trying to pick up every shift I can and any OT I can get is amazing and helps out my bills a lot. My friend is more hardcore than me and is even thinking about getting another job to work on his days off. A lot of new workers are desperate for cash and need the extra hours or OT.

 

[Clear]

- People don't really care for workers rights. If we did, before trying to help developers would be way down the list. Kids working in manufacturing in other countries would be at the top. Yet, people keep buying at Walmart and high end electronic devices anywhere.

This.

Its fucking transparent that almost all the internet chatter on this is people trying to impose their collective will on others for their own recreational amusement and to buff their own egos.

If you actually cared about worker's rights you wouldn't be using electronics created in Chinese sweatshops to register your disapproval on the internet.

When games companies start installing suicide nets outside their guarded dormitory compounds then its time to speak up. But when the extent of the "exploitation" is working unsociable hours on computers in air-conditioned offices. STFU.

 

[Gargus]

Unions are a terrible, terrible thing in this day and age. They once served a valuable purpose a long time ago when people were abused and mistreated, not paid fairly, etc. But now we have rules and laws in the government and state laws, and the ability for people to file lawsuits quite easily. Unions now only exist as a way to make money and nothing else. They are a useless concept that only exists by coercing and bullying their way in so they can make money for no really doing much of anything. Had a union come in at a job I worked at a while back and it sucked because I didnt vote them in yet they came in telling me I had to pay them union dues and I wouodnt sign because I wasnt having any issues so all the sudden I was only scheduled to work like 4 hours a week and i quit.

Crunch time happens everywhere in some fashion. Where I work we have crunch times and while they dont last very long we experience them quite often. In gaming they last longer but happen less frequently. Its a part of any job and from my experience it happens a lot of times from being ill prepared or from being too lax for too long and it catches up with you..

 

[EverydayBeast]

AAA games are glossy but hardcore gamers interest are outside of AAA games.

 

[MacReady13]

I saw this super annoying tweet* yesterday from a game producer on two key game dev issues: Crunch and Unions.



Ok, well this tweet was super annoying to me. Obviously, your millage may vary.

Anyway, I wanted to make a video about. So...I did!



Jaffe

You're a star Jaffe. Keep speaking the truth, no matter how much it might offend some sensitive people out there!

 

[Dane]

On every major project on any company there will be crunch, heck, even for smaller companies if things start to be tough.

 

[MoreJRPG]

On every major project on any company there will be crunch, heck, even for smaller companies if things start to be tough.

Exactly. Don’t get a job at EA or Microsoft or Google if you don’t want to work long hours from time to time. It is what it is, People expect large salaries and a structured 9-5 with no overtime? Give me a break.

 

[Dane]

Exactly. Don’t get a job at EA or Microsoft or Google if you don’t want to work long hours from time to time. It is what it is, People expect large salaries and a structured 9-5 with no overtime? Give me a break.

Don't even need to be just on IT and game developers, any company can have this, imagine that the Ford Taurus team worked their asses off from 1980-1985 to make one of the most biggest changes in american car industry, and also consider that Ford was nearing the bankruptcy and the car was make it or break it for them.

Sony for the win

So my point stands, devs at the lower end of the food chain can be expected to put in long hours without due compensation. This is one of the issues of crunch.

The sad and harsh reality is that the lower personnel is much easier to replace than the top ones, which is why they are called key personnel, because the key ones are responsible for directing the project, for example, most of the Rare key personnel left before the Microsoft acqusition and their games after it never got the same reception.

 

[floatstarpx]

I've crunched big crunches at previous companies. - but I've worked on more games where there was no crunch - it's not impossible, although I'm pretty sure that the larger the project, the more difficult it becomes.
It's more about finding a balance than an angry bloke shouting and ranting on a podcast might make it seem, hahaha

I'll be buying Cyberpunk 2077 on release. It looks great. I would've been pissed off had people boycotted the games I crunched for.

 

[jakinov]

The user above you just said that Japanese Devs don't need crunch time, so what are they doing better and/or more efficient than you?

I don't care if a game out today or in two years time. If it's good, I'll buy it. If the management is good, the game will get finished in time, without having to resort to slave labor.

Firstly, read what they said properly, they did not say that Japanese don't need/do crunch he said the Japanese studio he works for doesn't do crunch and even implied that it was out of the ordinary by saying that it was funny and not what you would expect. Japanese studios have examples of some of the worst delayed gamed in the past decade and their best games often feature massive delays. Japanese devs are also notorious for paying their devs very low (often compared to janitors) and over working them extra on a regular basis. If you do that then you are far less likely to need to overwork them anymore at the end (to crunch) or care as much for a delay because it's cheap over-worked development anyways.

Secondly, if you actually followed along in the conversation before, it's not about poor management (not that it doesn't happen), it's that game development is creative art with complex user interactions that's more complicated than a graphic designer designing a UI, all the features decided and it all gets done in easily definable planned work iterations. .Ideas change and things don't work out and that can result in massive changes that are more complex than move this button over here, make this button create this database entry, call this 3rd Party APi, etc. that you would find in most software projects nowadays. For most applications, you can plan out the whole user experience with essentially exact designs for what the user will see and what interactions will do; but for games the subjectivity and the complexity creates more reasons to pivot and potential for a lot of unplanned work.


Lastly, paying people far above minimum wage and giving them benefits is not slave labor especially if they consent to it and should know that crunch time has been something in the industry for a long time. And a large percent (not most) of companies do compensate people for doing crunch.

 

[DonF]

Forced crunch is bad, but extra hours is paid extra, right?

Many jobs have extra hours. I dont get why people complain for others.

Its not slavery if it gets paid.

 

[Ladioss]

I don't really play AAA games and I think crunch is above everything else a failure from management that shouldn't be shouldered by rank-and-file devs. But unions are a bad solution, they pretend to protect workers but most of the time they end up only protecting a small caste to the detriment of the less favored, and being a vehicle for pushing political agendas that have nothing to do workers rights.

 

[Shifty1897]

Side note: Are the CDProjekt devs still underpaid? After the Witcher 3 sold gangbusters and GOG is still generating revenue (I assume), one would think the devs would be paid a much more competitive wage.

Any one of those devs could literally get a job anywhere making above the industry average if they walked into a job interview and said "I helped make The Witcher 3."

 

[Fuz]

Japanese Devs don't need crunch time

Because what you consider "crunch time" it's their "normal time".

 

[StormCell]

The... same still applies. Just because they're professionals and (should be) adaptable doesn't mean they can pick up all the minutiae of your particular system in a timely manner or are familiar with all the pitfalls you've already dealt with for your project. The primary objective is to save time, but you now have an employee who already knows the work instead spending time explaining to another how shit works.

Just speculating here, but both concerns seem more likely to materialize in this kind of situation. What kind of prospects are you attracting to a temporary project? Probably young, inexperienced kids looking to get a foot in the door and some hands-on for their resume.

I'm an outsider though, so my opinion should be taken with a grain of salt.

For an outsider, you show an amount of wisdom that is very applicable to software development. Every dev team has a certain amount of tribal knowledge that is difficult to contain and keep updated in the documentation.

And to Elektro Demon : Your idea about staffing up is also certainly one way companies prepare for either increased workload or to meet a challenging deadline. Adding more workers will usually slow productivity down for a time before the company sees the fruits of adding to a team. Of course, I've also heard of companies who hire specifically for positions outside the borders of any required "tribal knowledge" on the project such as for software testers.

In general, "tribal knowledge" is obviously a bad thing. Kinda like technical debt. It's almost always there in some amount, and completely getting rid of it is a thing with diminishing returns (ie. how much does my employer want to spend on me getting rid of this??).

 

[Herr Edgy]

That's the issue with this kind of "movement." People are not allowed to be different. Not conforming with the "cause" is evil.

But that's exactly why people are criticizing crunch culture. Because it does not leave a choice. I don't think anyone arguing against crunch is saying that people are not allowed to voluntarily work long hours on their passion projects. That's 'this kind of anti-movement' projecting, to be honest.

 

[Kenpachii]

But that's exactly why people are criticizing crunch culture. Because it does not leave a choice. I don't think anyone arguing against crunch is saying that people are not allowed to voluntarily work long hours on their passion projects. That's 'this kind of anti-movement' projecting, to be honest.

Pretty much, crunch time isn't asking people about if you want to work longer. If you say no u are out for all kinds of reasons. So crunch shouldn't exist because it can't be pushed in a fair way.

Crunch is the dumpest shit excuse i have ever heard off for companies to exploit there workers and alienate them from there family's for some material gains.

Crunch should be straight up illegal.

Quote:
Cyberpunk 2077 was announced in May 2012. In January 2013, a teaser trailer was released, reaching 12 million views by June 2018.

Stop announcing your games 8 years before release. morons.

Maybe they should have crunched for the last 8 years because why not fuck free time? sounds like a plan rofl.

 

[eot]

I work in science, where people also work at the expense of their personal life, and predicting when something will be done is nearly impossible at times. It's true that those kinds of workplaces will always exist, just as there will always be people who are willing to work there. I don't agree with the statement that bad management doesn't play into it though. When projects are poorly planned and managed people have to make up for that by working more, it's not like that doesn't happen as well. It's a mix of both.

I'll also add that people who work excessive hours tend to overestimate the value of doing that. Yes, there are times when it's necessary, but doing it habitually or over extended periods of time is counterproductive for most people. Finally, I believe at least some AAA studios claim to have little to no crunch, like Insomniac and DICE.

 

[Smaller than Atom]

I bought like 2 dozen pairs of socks at walmart for $2. I wanted to start a thread on unionising sock workers in Bangladesh, but then I realised that would be taking attention away for poor game developers who face real oppression.

This. Guys stfu. Dev's at big studios are well paid and treated well. I'll trade any day of the week.

 

[Ballthyrm]

People seem to think that you can fix the presence of Crunch by managing better or adding more people.
Here is some of symptom of what happen when you add more people to your team:

• no knowledge transmission because the design docs are 2 years out of date and it's in someone head somewhere, who ? it's up to you to find out
• nobody has time to tell you anything because they are too busy shipping the damn game
• more meeting, more office politics, less trust between people, slower communication
• it is probably faster to do your job for you that it is to take the time to explain how to do it properly
• more people, great ! now only the leads know what's going, too bad they are on reviews all the time and can't tell you
• there now so many people that you can't ask for anything anymore as everything need to be tracked in the task tracking software

on so on and so forth.

Yeah, sometimes it is just simpler and better to just work longer and go through all that stuff.
Smaller team and longer dev cycle aren't the solution either because the main enemy is losing the Ideas you thought were great in the first place, but now you aren't so sure anymore.
Slow and steady can kill designs too, especially if they are new and untested.

 

[OutrageousFacts]

What irks me the wrong way is how some gamers act as if developers with crunch time have it sooo bad, calling for petitions, boycott, outrage, etc..

Crunch time sucks. It does. But the truth is almost every business on earth has its hands in shady shit. You only keep buying these products because you DON'T KNOW about it. Because if you knew, you'd have to acknowledge it.

The cobalt in your fancy Tesla's battery? Dug up by 10 year-olds who die of cobalt poisoning shortly after.

Your fancy iphone? Assembled by poor chinese workers who literally live to work. Btw not just iphones, but most electronics.

The meat you eat? Coming from the animal-version of Holocaust KZs. Your fruits and vegetables? Grown in artificial mega plantations, destroying the natural environment and being harvested by illegal refugees who can't afford to say no to ridiculous low wages.

And so on!

I'm not saying 'stop caring'. But maybe choose more carefully what to care about. I'm not sure if well-paid, highly-educated developers need to be cared about before starving children and hopleless quasi-slaves. But I can already smell the outraged 'whataboutism!!1' screeches ...

 

[Kenpachii]

What irks me the wrong way is how some gamers act as if developers with crunch time have it sooo bad, calling for petitions, boycott, outrage, etc..

Crunch time sucks. It does. But the truth is almost every business on earth has its hands in shady shit. You only keep buying these products because you DON'T KNOW about it. Because if you knew, you'd have to acknowledge it.

The cobalt in your fancy Tesla's battery? Dug up by 10 year-olds who die of cobalt poisoning shortly after.

Your fancy iphone? Assembled by poor chinese workers who literally live to work. Btw not just iphones, but most electronics.

The meat you eat? Coming from the animal-version of Holocaust KZs. Your fruits and vegetables? Grown in artificial mega plantations, destroying the natural environment and being harvested by illegal refugees who can't afford to say no to ridiculous low wages.

And so on!

I'm not saying 'stop caring'. But maybe choose more carefully what to care about. I'm not sure if well-paid, highly-educated developers need to be cared about before starving children and hopleless quasi-slaves. But I can already smell the outraged 'whataboutism!!1' screeches ...

True we should get child slave labor back and basically buy up kids why even pay them, hey at least they stay alive.. Some kid in india died from cobalt poisoning so yea, we can't complain.

 

[Shmunter]

Ask man to build a brick wall over 5days. First 3 days he will build 1 days worth of wall, last 2 days he will build 4 days worth. Human nature.

 

[Clear]

What irks me the wrong way is how some gamers act as if developers with crunch time have it sooo bad, calling for petitions, boycott, outrage, etc..

Crunch time sucks. It does. But the truth is almost every business on earth has its hands in shady shit. You only keep buying these products because you DON'T KNOW about it. Because if you knew, you'd have to acknowledge it.

The cobalt in your fancy Tesla's battery? Dug up by 10 year-olds who die of cobalt poisoning shortly after.

Your fancy iphone? Assembled by poor chinese workers who literally live to work. Btw not just iphones, but most electronics.

The meat you eat? Coming from the animal-version of Holocaust KZs. Your fruits and vegetables? Grown in artificial mega plantations, destroying the natural environment and being harvested by illegal refugees who can't afford to say no to ridiculous low wages.

And so on!

I'm not saying 'stop caring'. But maybe choose more carefully what to care about. I'm not sure if well-paid, highly-educated developers need to be cared about before starving children and hopleless quasi-slaves. But I can already smell the outraged 'whataboutism!!1' screeches ...

Well said.

Although in many respects game-dev is a "soft" job, as in terms of low physical hardship and risk, it can also be extremely stressful mentally and emotionally.

And yes, extended periods of crunch do wear people down - in some cases no-doubt to breaking point.

I know, I've been there. It took 22 years, but in the end, I burned out too.

But here's the thing: At no point was a gun held to my head. There are no "prisoners" of the job, you can always walk away. Problems tend to be self-inlflicted because passion burns hot and bright, and you can exhaust yourself if you really care about the work and the product. Its a competitive field, and it attracts people who need to express themselves in their work.

Bottom line; developers as a group, deserve your respect. Its not an easy vocation by any means.

That being said, we are still just office workers, nearly all in affluent, developed nations. Which in global terms is way better than average!

 

[Shadowplay1979]

End of the day, it really does come down to work ethic and drive. Not everyone has it. Your sandwich example is perfect. In the various companies I've worked in we've hired people with less experience because they had that 'sandwich gene'; the sense that whatever we threw at them they would do everything they could to make it work. THOSE are the people you want in the trenches with you, even if- on paper- they are not as 'valuable' as someone with more experience. Granted, it depends on the job. An online high end engineer needs the chops. But a starting position? Fuck it- take the person w/work ethic and fire in his gut cause that motherfucker is going places and you want to benefit from what he brings to the team.

This, 100 percent...unfortunately the person with work ethic seems to be passed these days in favor of the person who is young, has a decent portfolio and has quality studio time under their belt...speaking only from an artist perspective. The competition here in Los Angeles is overwhelming for instance. Having triple a work on your resume doesnt mean much if if its short term contracts here and there. Studios tend to hire base level reliability over drive, which is why you get softer people working these jobs.

 

[Northeastmonk]

When I read CD Projekt Red's response I feel as though its a big CEO type of thing to say when you make a big decision for a company that its in the spotlight such as CD Projekt Red. I remember when NetherRealm Studios had that big issue a while back with Mortal Kombat 11. It was as if they overworked and paid their interns peanuts to help create MK11. News only broke out about it because people complained and then the people at the top were basically forced to address it. This whole thing from CD Projekt Red sounds like everyone is aware of it. Its like how I work later days in IT support for CPA firms during Tax season. It was part of the job description, but I'm there working later than any other night.

 

[oagboghi2]

Pretty much, crunch time isn't asking people about if you want to work longer. If you say no u are out for all kinds of reasons. So crunch shouldn't exist because it can't be pushed in a fair way.

Crunch is the dumpest shit excuse i have ever heard off for companies to exploit there workers and alienate them from there family's for some material gains.

Crunch should be straight up illegal.

Quote:


Maybe they should have crunched for the last 8 years because why not fuck free time? sounds like a plan rofl.

Do you think they were just playing for 8 years? It is impossible to accurately predict how long will take to completely make a game. The best you can do is make assumptions based on how ambitious the current design spec is, and operate accordingly. You can't plan for every problem, or if the project funding falls through, or if it needs to be restarted because the first design-build isn't working, etc etc

It's like you anti-crunch people don't live in reality.

Also, the argument that employees don't have a choice is stupid. They can quit.

Cyberpunk 2077 was announced in May 2012. In January 2013, a teaser trailer was released, reaching 12 million views by June 2018.

Stop announcing your games 8 years before release. morons.

For 5 seconds, use your brain Kenpachii and think, why would a studio, A private buisness, want to announce a project early?

 

[recursive]

That depends on the title of course but yea, I think a better comparison is how we dont see F-22's or Apaches falling out of the sky all the time when you think of what is needed for them to work....every little nut and bolt is needed to be put together perfectly and has to be done with an understanding of the human error calculated into it. But those have very precise blueprints..now think of an F-22 that has to be designed with changing blue prints, on the fly and with parts that are constantly being redone or changed while the entire plane is in production..thats a triple a game.,

Actually in engineering this is common and contributes to schedule slip and other issues. These platforms typically have dozens of installation drawings with 100s to 1000s of down part drawings. Changes to one installation or one down part can have a ripple effect.

On that note, I never really understood the views on crunch. Video game industry is not the only one to experience it and likely not the worst. Never see people complaining about those other industries.

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

They get paid for overtime hours right? What is the problem? God I wish I was working overtime and making dough.

 

[VertigoOA]

As someone who worked over 90 hours of OT in December alone... and most of those days hungover as fuck...

That was fucking awesome

Blood, sweat and gears

 

[lingpanda]

"Lifes too short to do shit that you don't love" Jaffe

I want my AAA gaming. Respect those that love the grind and bring me great innovative games to play.

 

[residentgrigo]

Some crunch can work if the employees are fully reimbursed once whatever they worked on is out of the door. Such a period can´t be longer than let´s say 2 months. Basic training in the military is "only" 3 months over here and not all of it is spent in such bad living conditions. The way R+, CPR or anime companies are going about it is pure nonsense and I get why words like PTSD are being thrown around.
Yes, these 2 make good games but this is inhuman and I would never work for such an employer.

All of this is further illegal in my country. The GameStar did a report on crunch in the German dev space at the end of last year and it really doesn´t exist as in this case due to unions being a basic fabric of society. Even the 2 decades + old Piranha Bytes (Gothic) only crunched on their first game as it was developed by the studio founders as their first project.
CP 2077 is destined to be at least "good" but the studio heads can still get fucked. Especially if I consider how well TW3 sold.

Edit: I served for 2 years in the military, so I don´t want to hear shit about the value of hard work TM. The AAA-development space has become a sickness that is run by some of the worst executives known to man. Link to valid Jim Sterling rant [here].

 

[NikuNashi]

I work in 'AAA' game dev in Japan. I have not worked a second 'crunch' in over 6 years. My team mates on a previous team have lived in the studio doing 10 hours days for years on end. There was a running joke that they didn't need to look at the clock at 7:00pm, just to look if I am still in my seat or not.

Wan't to know the secret. Be good, Be very fucking good. Be exceptional. Be irreplaceable and have the attitude that you know it, the company is lucky to have you. I have a baby, wife, and am too long in the tooth to stomach ANY of the BS that perhaps works on more junior dev's (me included when I was starting off).

I would never work for any of these teams cited in this thread and it's their loss, I could greatly improve their games however just a cursury glance into their studio would be enough for me to walk away. Many friends in the industry at my level tend to work freelance in order to keep a distance from the studio and so retain total control over their working hours or else get dragged into believing they should be living in the studio.

Game development on the whole is a cess pit of manipulation, mismanagement and Stevie wonder HR departments.


EDIT: Having read back my comment I wanted to clarify my position as it sounds a bit arrogant. I am in favor of a healthy work life balance for all devs and think that a Union may help with that. I am not in favor of people being pressured to work overtime at the detriment to their health and relationships (I have seen both people take sabbaticals for mental health reasons and people get divorced due to never being at home).

 

[V4skunk]

The nature of most people that join the gaming industry dictates that many of these people never experienced hard work or deadlines in their lives.

 

[BigBooper]

Your points are all true. Gamers generally are a lot of bleeding hearts that don't understand reality though, so I expect we'll continue seeing the same discussions forever, or at least until the enabling games press goes away.

 

[Bkdk]

Overtime used to be even more common during times when AAA games are released way more often. clearly there is no correlation. Development cycle is getting too long. Spending 5+ years for a new title is crazy. I think focusing more on remaking titles will increase AAA games. Less risk, lots of time saved on creating new characters, lore and world design. There are huge number of older classics that I would want them to be remade with some new content in it.

 

[Duckhuntdog]

davidjaffe , I have a story you might be interested in: My friend decided to join a new AA game studio that promised they would NOT crunch and he kept mentioning that during his goodbye dinner. A programmer friend turned and asked, "Sooooo, when is your ship date?" To which my friend replied, "We don't have one yet." The programmer then said, "Hmmm, well sure, in that situation you won't crunch. But once you do have a hard release date, there's gonna be crunch."

Well time passes and the game announces a release date and lo and behold the studio that said they would never crunch, had crunch. When the programmer found out he stated bluntly, "Told you there would be crunch."

And you are right, it isn't always a production problem as each department at the studio my friend went to had its own producer and said producer has at least two to three associate producers! It's not all a production problem. Some games have so much invested in marketing that moving a date just isn't possible, especially when it's already announced (well unless you are Nintendo I suppose)

And yes, with the amount of outsourcing of large sections of game assets and pipelines to China and India, who create high quality assets for considerably less than in the west, it's very difficult to have leverage in creating a union. As you mentioned, for a union to work, it needs leverage. And almost all unions in Hollywood, as you mentioned have some form of leverage, while in games that doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[TheWanderingOgre]

Glad to see it here too, Jaffe. Was afraid you traded us for Era.

I mostly agree.

As long as it is not 'forced' overtime and as long as it is paid and compensated generously, I see no problem.

I have been working in many low-barrier industries for decades, not one was without some overtime.

Plus the 'pressure' to do overtime always exists, in pretty much every job, sooner or later.

If it is not in your contract they can shove that 'pressure' where the sun doesnt shine.

In most jobs I had in my life I was 'pressured' to do overtime. 9 out of ten times I refused. The ominous consequences were just that; pressure, psycho drama. Nothing came of them.

Why?

'Cause even in quasi 3rd world countries like mine, thats not how the Law works.

Before Unions come into play, workers have to really man up and start fending for themselves.

You dont need an Union to say No to your employer regarding a thing you arent legally obliged to do.

You owe nothing to your employer.

You do your work, as it is defined in your contract and in accord to the laws that regulate the job market of your country.

You get paid.

Period.

If you feel that need, and if you succumb to peer pressure, the problem is much deeper than the one being discussed here.

We talk about empowerement so much these days.

The biggest superpower I achieved in my life was the power to say No.

Try it out sometimes, people.

 

[MiyazakiHatesKojima]

I work in 'AAA' game dev in Japan. I have not worked a second 'crunch' in over 6 years. My team mates on a previous team have lived in the studio doing 10 hours days for years on end. There was a running joke that they didn't need to look at the clock at 7:00pm, just to look if I am still in my seat or not.

Wan't to know the secret. Be good, Be very fucking good. Be exceptional. Be irreplaceable and have the attitude that you know it, the company is lucky to have you. I have a baby, wife, and am too long in the tooth to stomach ANY of the BS that perhaps works on more junior dev's (me included when I was starting off).

I would never work for any of these teams cited in this thread and it's their loss, I could greatly improve their games however just a cursury glance into their studio would be enough for me to walk away. Many friends in the industry at my level tend to work freelance in order to keep a distance from the studio and so retain total control over their working hours or else get dragged into believing they should be living in the studio.

Game development on the whole is a cess pit of manipulation, mismanagement and Stevie wonder HR departments.

That's my Kojima Productions-visiting sensei right there

 

[davidjaffe]

I work in 'AAA' game dev in Japan. I have not worked a second 'crunch' in over 6 years. My team mates on a previous team have lived in the studio doing 10 hours days for years on end. There was a running joke that they didn't need to look at the clock at 7:00pm, just to look if I am still in my seat or not.

Wan't to know the secret. Be good, Be very fucking good. Be exceptional. Be irreplaceable and have the attitude that you know it, the company is lucky to have you. I have a baby, wife, and am too long in the tooth to stomach ANY of the BS that perhaps works on more junior dev's (me included when I was starting off).

I would never work for any of these teams cited in this thread and it's their loss, I could greatly improve their games however just a cursury glance into their studio would be enough for me to walk away. Many friends in the industry at my level tend to work freelance in order to keep a distance from the studio and so retain total control over their working hours or else get dragged into believing they should be living in the studio.

Game development on the whole is a cess pit of manipulation, mismanagement and Stevie wonder HR departments.

I guess the game makers and management at Sony Santa Monica, Naughty Dog, Rockstar, CD Project Red, etc. need to get good. And not just good but very fucking good then?

I mean, you are talking- across all disciplines- about some of the very best in the business; the tip of the spear. But sure, perhaps there's an elite Navy Seal 6 style dev team that can out do what these teams do AND do it with no crunch. Not taking the piss- that sounds fantastic. What AAA games have you worked on so we can know what the teams are that possess the ability? Thx!

David

 

[RiccochetJ]

They get paid for overtime hours right? What is the problem? God I wish I was working overtime and making dough.

Long hours and a looming deadline that your job may very well depend on meeting can burn out anyone.

 

[NikuNashi]

I guess the game makers and management at Sony Santa Monica, Naughty Dog, Rockstar, CD Project Red, etc. need to get good. And not just good but very fucking good then?

I mean, you are talking- across all disciplines- about some of the very best in the business; the tip of the spear. But sure, perhaps there's an elite Navy Seal 6 style dev team that can out do what these teams do AND do it with no crunch. Not taking the piss- that sounds fantastic. What AAA games have you worked on so we can know what the teams are that possess the ability? Thx!

David

Not looking to get into it with anyone so whatever. My comment was from my 20 years experience, if you have different experience so be it. Everyone plays the game their way with a lot of people being played obviously.

'I guess the game makers and management at Sony Santa Monica, Naughty Dog, Rockstar, CD Project Red, etc. need to get good' I didn't say this although if they are doing unpaid overtime then yes there are serious problems with their development process that they should address.

 

[teacupcopter]

It’s tricky. I think people saying it’s their choice are having a fucking laugh, it’s “do it or get fired”. That’s why we make laws against forced overtime.

I do feel some is evidently needed however. Just limit it. How are 18 hour days productive. It just sounds ridiculous and reeks of poor planning.

and if it’s unpaid- no I’m sorry pay your fucking employees.

the thing I hate post about right wing cunts is saying “oh just put in free hours like I did herrr” while also saying that their shitty work policies and right wing beliefs help out the average joe with trickle down /helping employment.

If you are a video game company not even paying a man to be away from his family, his children while you reap the massive benefits of his labor- then go and get fucked.

 

[RiccochetJ]

It’s tricky. I think people saying it’s their choice are having a fucking laugh, it’s “do it or get fired”. That’s why we make laws against forced overtime.

Depending on where you live, salaried employees don't get overtime pay and there's no "forcing" I'm free to leave anytime I want.

I do feel some is evidently needed however. Just limit it. How are 18 hour days productive. It just sounds ridiculous and reeks of poor planning.

I'm not entirely sure how the poor planning is solely on management. I'm not in gaming, but I've worked in software for multiple companies across multiple industries for what is now 20 years and never once have I seen a directive from on high tell us to do something without development feedback which led them to believe we could get it done and they made the commitment to their stake/share holders.

and if it’s unpaid- no I’m sorry pay your fucking employees.

Again. Salaried. What's nice is that during the non-chaotic days and there's nothing to do, I can take it easy and I'll still get paid the same. If I were hourly, I would have got sent home and will have had to clock out.

the thing I hate post about right wing cunts is saying “oh just put in free hours like I did herrr” while also saying that their shitty work policies and right wing beliefs help out the average joe with trickle down /helping employment.

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about here other than you're having a rant. And you know what? Good for you. Get it out of your system and then come back to reality.

If you are a video game company not even paying a man to be away from his family, his children while you reap the massive benefits of his labor- then go and get fucked.

Since 2004 with the "EA Wife" and all the articles that have been written since then, people should know that crunch is part of the industry. There is no blindsiding here. And if after 16 years of articles, documentation, and studios outright saying that there's going to be crunch... if you decide to get into the industry and think that you may miss some holidays, THAT'S ON YOU.

There are plenty of other fields that will pay more, require less crunch, and give you better benefits for your skill set. Don't give me this garbage.