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[Mr Moose]

We won't know shit for sure until these thing are out and tested with multiplat games.
If the audio is as good as Sony are claiming, I'll be pleased, not sure if 3rd parties will use it to its full potential though.
Hopefully there's a "rain" demo so I can get my ASMR tingles lol.

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

Yeah, completely different designs.
RDNA2 and, cough, RDNA2.

Lol I can see right through your trolling.

So, you think PS5's RNDNA2 GPU and XsX's RDNA2 GPU are exactly the same? Please, let me know so I can have a good laugh.

That's why your dGPU example of a 2070 and 2080 gpu is laughable, as these, unlike the new gen console GPUs, are more or less identical. Therefore tflops numbers are indicative of perf.

And yes I know SmartShift is an AMD tech, but I haven't seen MS explicitly announce it is in XsX, which is more performance lost if this is not in their GPU.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

For me its same as you
As i watched the live Stream and at the moment cerny mentioned 36 cu's i would close the stream... I was highly disappointed

But yet i understand the things and the advantages/disadvantages from each System a little better

You should watch DF analysis, it was what shifted my mind first. Don't get me wrong, I was getting PS5 anyway, but I felt like the gap is big, which isn't. The more devs speak, the more we get more hints to what to expect. But, let's wait for games indeed.

See the laughable difference here between 2080 (10.1 TF) and 2080Ti (13.4 TF) and the difference is 24.6%, not to mention if the devs aim for locked 60fps then that's around ~70fps of headroom. If not then it's a scenario of less than 9fps at 60fps! which is 14.8%




And that's without the SSD and the Secret Sauce

 

[sinnergy]

Is this guy really suggesting that BCPack can compensate for XSX's 100% deficit in IO throughput? Better than Kraken? OK, believable and very feasible.

Serious question: does XSX have hardware decompression of data?

Yes, it’s a dedicated block . And other I/o adjustments.

 

[Reindeer]

So by the logic of some of you this is the fastest and best console this gen right SMH

Like you can't donwplay the SSD in the PS5, its a super fast and much much faster than the one in the X but its not gonna change the way the games look. Its not gonna close the power gap betwen the 2 consoles as some are hoping. Wish Sony would have just put a slower ssd in favour of stronger gpu and faster ram or both the same ssd with stronger gpu and faster ram.

Only in a console related thread you'll get people more excited for faster SSD than CPU and GPU. I think Series X approach is better, but time will tell if this SSD on PS5 will make a lot of difference.

 

[Dural]

Just for fun, Challenger Demon 840hp with semi slicks vs Nissan GT-R 600hp with regular tires (watch all rounds)




They stop before the turn so Demon doesn't hit the wall or go off track or smash the GT-R.

Teraflops = Horespower

It's not the whole story.

Drag racing on a racetrack, makes sense.

The Demon would eat the GT-R for breakfast all day long on a drag strip. GT-R quarter mile is 11 seconds, Demon 9 seconds.

 

[SonGoku]

Though if PS5 is closer to 9.2tf on average

We already know this isn't the case from Mark Cerny himself, the console stays on 10.27TF most of the time and even for the worst case scenario game any downclocking would be minor

 

[Kazekage1981]

What is BCpack ?

 

[Gamernyc78]

I understand people have an aversion to proprietary storage solutions and it is admirable that Sony want to allow you to use your own third-party drives.

So having the option at least is great, but I still think Sony should offer their own proprietary, PS-branded cards. It keeps it simple and straightforward for the less technically versed customers out there, which is most of them. This will also mean that anyone wanting additional storage at launch won't have limited third party options or possibly even no options.

MS' approach is also more durable and elegant.

Again, it's great to have the option but establishing a baseline standard out of the gate means establishing quality for all and ease of use for most. I worry that a third party-only solution is going to get messy and convoluted.

I think the best approach would be to do what MS have done but include a simple little enclosure for your own NVMe drive/s for when they become available.

Nah they learned from the Vita and won't go tht route, it hurt them in the end.

 

[Marlenus]

Lol I can see right through your trolling.

So, you think PS5's RNDNA2 GPU and XsX's RDNA2 GPU are exactly the same? Please, let me know so I can have a good laugh.

That's why your dGPU example of a 2070 and 2080 gpu is laughable, as these, unlike the new gen console GPUs, are more or less identical. Therefore tflops numbers are indicative of perf.

And yes I know SmartShift is an AMD tech, but I haven't seen MS explicitly announce it is in XsX, which is more performance lost if this is not in their GPU.

This reminds me of the Xbox fanboys last gen going bu bu but the cloud.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

We won't know shit for sure until these thing are out and tested with multiplat games.
If the audio is as good as Sony are claiming, I'll be pleased, not sure if 3rd parties will use it to its full potential though.
Hopefully there's a "rain" demo so I can get my ASMR tingles lol.

You should photograph your ear or even send a video to Cerny as he said, then he'll whisper in your ears and guide you through the harsh path of BloodBorne 2.

 

[POak]

Not trying to defend SONY in any way, shape, or form, as I believe that Microsoft's offering will be as quiet as it seems to be powerful, but there's something we need to consider - you can't have audio being one of your core features for this generation, and yet have a loud console. This is why I think SONY went for a console that doesn't push itself extremely hard to reach a TF count that, from SONY's standpoint, serves them no purpose (increased graphical fidelity in this era of diminishing returns).

Going for a 9.2TF console that, if needed, pushes itself to 10.28TF is perhaps the balance they struck between having a whisper quiet console that delivers on sound but also performance.

What remains to be seen is if Microsoft's Series X manages to deliver on all 3 without the power compromise of SONY.

Hopefully, multiplatforms don't take as hard a hit as they did back on the PS3 vs. 360 generation. I hated having inferior multiplatforms, but the PS3's exclusives were more appealing to me at the time.

 

[CJY]

What is BCpack ?

Some shitty data compression tech in the XSX.

lol

 

[CJY]

This reminds me of the Xbox fanboys last gen going bu bu but the cloud.

Cloud was obviously bogus though.

How will you feel when game comparisons come out and they perform the same on both consoles? How would you feel about that?

 

[pasterpl]

Xbox fans, sorry to piss on your party but the XsX may not have more performance than PS5, as I suspected was the case and echos what an industry inside hinted at on here:



This reality is slowly being disseminated after the premature celebrating. Sony's strategy with the tech talk was piss poor though, they'll need to clear the FUD.

no one sane is saying that xbsex is much more powerful, as some people stated here it is approx. Up to 20% more powerful than ps5. But the fact is that xbsex is the most powerful console ever.

 

[Kazekage1981]

This reminds me of the Xbox fanboys last gen going bu bu but the cloud.

Microsoft has had 7 years (since that awful presentation back in 2013) to work on game streaming service , or anything related to "machine learning-deep learning-neural net" I wouldn't be surprised if XsX benefits from that in some way shape or form. They still have a lot more to reveal.

 

[Marlenus]

Cloud was obviously bogus though.

How will you feel when game comparisons come out and they perform the same on both consoles? How would you feel about that?

Fine. It happened this gen on occasion and there was a larger gap this gen Vs next.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Drag racing on a racetrack, makes sense.

The Demon would eat the GT-R for breakfast all day long on a drag strip. GT-R quarter mile is 11 seconds, Demon 9 seconds.

That's the problem, when you are on the road, you'll get your ass handed to you, in a ring that's out of the equation. Dynamic AWD, smart power usage like ATTESA and so on. On paper you would expect to be much faster, but being only good on a drag strip is quite embarrassing.

Games will show more details in action, many bubbles will deflate.

 

[devilNprada]

It's not a war, it's just facts. PS5 will still be a great console and have great exclusives. One console was always going to be better than the other, that's how it's always been.

I am not at all talking about exclusives.
You seem to put all games in one lump sum category.

Tell me games like Elderscrolls won't benefit more from faster load times than faster FPS?

 

[CJY]

Not trying to defend SONY in any way, shape, or form, as I believe that Microsoft's offering will be as quiet as it seems to be powerful, but there's something we need to consider - you can't have audio being one of your core features for this generation, and yet have a loud console. This is why I think SONY went for a console that doesn't push itself extremely hard to reach a TF count that, from SONY's standpoint, serves them no purpose (increased graphical fidelity in this era of diminishing returns).

Going for a 9.2TF console that, if needed, pushes itself to 10.28TF is perhaps the balance they struck between having a whisper quiet console that delivers on sound but also performance.

What remains to be seen is if Microsoft's Series X manages to deliver on all 3 without the power compromise of SONY.

Hopefully, multiplatforms don't take as hard a hit as they did back on the PS3 vs. 360 generation. I hated having inferior multiplatforms, but the PS3's exclusives were more appealing to me at the time.

Cerny spoke enough about heating for me to be confident that PS5 will be quiet. He designed the PS5's cooling system based on a fixed power draw and therefore fixed maximum heat dissipation. If the PS5 is also loud, I'm done with PlayStation I think.

 

[Fake]

This reminds me of the Xbox fanboys last gen going bu bu but the cloud.

Not saying X is already more powerful than PRO. So, yeah. Give them more ammunition.

 

[PaintTinJr]

It sounds like you're saying that if the GPU has less work, the residual power simply gets turned into heat? That would make sense if the power delivery were to be constant, which Cerny outlined in his talk:



...Implying that power draw on PS4 varied based on workload. I'm not disputing what you're saying about conductivity vs. infinite resistivity, just trying to get my head around what he's on about.

Instead of letting excess power end up as heat, they pre-emptively upclock less dense workloads to use the excess power for pushing a clock higher – funnelling more of the excess power through the transistors that are conductive, resulting in less heat by-product.

On PS4 Pro the ambient temp rises in the idle CU threads cause the fan to run faster and draw more power to maintain the new ambient temp, increasing overall chip resistance, causing more power to be drawn to maintain performance - from the noisy fan sparse workload scenario he described (AFAIK).

edit: But I do agree he shouldn't be speculating, and it would be nice if the PS4/Pro had a safe mode that allowed the gamer to have temps output or logged, as it could just as easily be caused by the HDD reporting a high temp through S.M.A.R.T that the fan then tries to cool, when the console really needed its file DB rebuilt, clean format or a new HDD.

 

[PocoJoe]

People talk like Xsex somehow magically won the next gen just because of minor Tflop difference.

Truth is that Playstation is still much stronger as brand and if the only difference is this number on paper, no major flaws like big price difference, broken hardware, no games etc = Playstation is the most likely winner.

Even shitty ass wii sold like hot cakes so it should be clear that masses and casuals wont care about pure power, and they definetly wont see the difference of 2 tflops on the screen.

What they see is games.

And if one of them offers literally instant loading and another doesnt, then that will get more attention as it would be really cool new feature that even casuals understand.

ps. I asked from relatives that dont even game

"what is xbox series x?" and what is "playstation 5" = nobody had an idea that what Xsex is, but most knew that it is probably new playstation as the knew that there is ps3 and ps4

 

[CJY]

Fine. It happened this gen on occasion and there was a larger gap this gen Vs next.

Yeah, the gap is way smaller this gen. So you agree that the chances of highly comparable performance is likely this gen? Cos I really do. And I really don't care if if my resolution drop from 2160P to 1800P either. Even if XSX stays at 2160P. It won't affect my enjoyment whatsoever. Actually, I literally won't/can't be able to notice.

 

[Dural]

That's the problem, when you are on the road, you'll get your ass handed to your, on in a ring that's out of the equation. Dynamic AWD, smart power usage like ATTESA and so on. On paper you would expect to be much faster, but being only good on a drag strip is quite embarrassing.

Games will show more details in action, many bubbles will deflate.

The point of the Demon is to take it to a drag strip, it was never meant to be track car. On paper and in the real world it is faster than the Nismo GT-R at what it was intended to do. Just like the XsX CPU/GPU and ram are faster than the PS5 at what they are intended to do!

 

[Lipe]

From the 2 presentations, we got recently I have to say Microsoft made incredible leaps in Software Engineering (they are a software company at heart right?...) since the first implementation of the Backwards compatibility service in the Xbox One, I honestly couldn't believe it could be done. The fact that after 2 weeks Gears of War 5 was running in the XsX proves how mature the development frameworks/SDK must be, that together with the implementation of HDR in older games (among other stuff), is in my opinion truly mindblowing.

Regarding the sony presentation, I just have to say that is fascinating to hear someone like Cerny talking about gaming in general. One moment the guy is talking about how to design an I/O chip, next he is talking about how a game loads data, next he is talking about how games are implemented. It's amazing, its sad that we only hear from him when new hardware is about to launch.

 

[Turk1993]

Only in a console related thread you'll get people more excited for faster SSD than CPU and GPU. I think Series X approach is better, but time will tell if this SSD on PS5 will make a lot of difference.

Like really i don't understand it anymore, PS5 is not a weak console its still very capable and a powerhouse but the way people are tryna spin it in favor of PS5 vs X is just laughable. They mentioned all the software and hardware tricks PS5 has will ignoring the same software and hardware tricks in Xbox. they think MS doesn't have the software knowledge that Sony has wich is funny because MS is a software company. Both consoles have crazy software and hardware engineers so what Sony has in its console MS also has it but with more power (outside the SSD ofcourse). And the people that are making the most noise here are the people hyping up that gaddamn 13TF that i also wanted . But now they act like TF is nothing and that the SSD is a bigger factor in graphics.

 

[molly14]

Anyone else tired of all this tech talk now.
Yes the x series is more powerful than Ps5 but out of gaming forums who gives a dime.

I just want to see some game demos on the two systems, how about the next forza and gran turismo for a start,

Should be mind blowing.

 

[CJY]

Instead of letting excess power end up as heat, they pre-emptively upclock less dense workloads to use the excess power for pushing a clock higher – funnelling more of the excess power through the transistors that are conductive, resulting in less heat by-product.

On PS4 Pro the ambient temp rises in the idle CU threads cause the fan to run faster and draw more power to maintain the new ambient temp, increasing overall chip resistance, causing more power to be drawn to maintain performance - from the noisy fan sparse workload scenario he described (AFAIK).

This makes a lot more sense, thanks for that. What you're saying seem like entirely logical explanation for this anomaly.

 

[Fake]

Anyone else tired of all this tech talk now.
Yes the x series is more powerful than Ps5 but out of gaming forums who gives a dime.

I just want to see some game demos on the two systems, how about the next forza and gran turismo for a start,

Should be mind blowing.

Besides the console war bullshit, I not tired of tech talk. Was the best moment of the discussion.

 

[SonGoku]

Is this guy really suggesting that BCPack can compensate for XSX's 100% deficit in IO throughput? Better than Kraken? OK, believable and very feasible.

Serious question: does XSX have hardware decompression of data?

You are focusing on the wrong aspect, while Kraken has 10% more compression the biggest difference is in the compression units
The SEX compression unit can deliver over 6GB/s (peak figure) - 4.8GB/s (typically?)
The PS5 compression unit can deliver up to 22GB/s (peak figure) and 8 to 9GB/s typically

 

[Marlenus]

Yeah, the gap is way smaller this gen. So you agree that the chances of highly comparable performance is likely this gen? Cos I really do. And I really don't care if if my resolution drop from 2160P to 1800P either. Even if XSX stays at 2160P. It won't affect my enjoyment whatsoever. Actually, I literally won't/can't be able to notice.

You might get slightly better settings on series X and you are far more likely to hold a steadier framerate due to the higher and fixed cpu clock speed.

 

[johnjohn]

Seems like Jason admitted that he's doing damage control for himself since the consoles aren't quite as close to eachother as he was claiming lol.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

The point of the Demon is to take it to a drag strip, it was never meant to be track car. On paper and in the real world it is faster than the Nismo GT-R at what it was intended to do. Just like the XsX CPU/GPU and ram are faster than the PS5 at what they are intended to do!

Yes, and get mauled on road even while cheating with semi-slicks. Anyway let's continue to laugh at Xbox One:




A very famous anime worldwide (except USA, Canada). Not an exclusive, comes to PS4, Switch, Steam, and probably OUYA if it was there but not Xbox One. An amazing message for Japanese games lovers to know where to go next. It's funny because it's not an exclusive, shows you much.

 

[Grinchy]

I haven't been in the thread in a while to make any predictions, but I think the PS5 is gonna be 14TF.

 

[CJY]

You are focusing on the wrong aspect, while Kraken has 10% more compression the biggest difference is in the compression units
The SEX compression unit can deliver over 6GB/s (peak figure) - 4.8GB/s (typically?)
The PS5 compression unit can deliver up to 22GB/s (peak figure) and 8 to 9GB/s typically

I'm aware of these figures. I'm exacty highlighting how regardless of the compression used, it won't compensate for PS5s improved IO unit throughput.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Anyone else tired of all this tech talk now.
Yes the x series is more powerful than Ps5 but out of gaming forums who gives a dime.

I just want to see some game demos on the two systems, how about the next forza and gran turismo for a start,

Should be mind blowing.

We'll get that in more video streams closer to JUne when E3 would have been.

Both MS and Sony shot their loads this week, so at most you'll get a few clarification articles. But for big game demos I wouldn't hold my breath this month or next. They got to let gamer digest the info and spread out the news.

 

[POak]

Cerny spoke enough about heating for me to be confident that PS5 will be quiet. He designed the PS5's cooling system based on a fixed power draw and therefore fixed maximum heat dissipation. If the PS5 is also loud, I'm done with PlayStation I think.

Wait...

Hold on...

The question that your statement now raised is that if he designed the console to be whisper quiet when going at max (i.e., 10.28TFs), why not have it run at that max at all times? Why risk this whole debacle about PS5 being less competent, and giving developers a harder time at optimizing their games?

If I am sneaking around someone's house and I can run just as quietly as I tippy toe, I would probably run, as opposed to tippy toe. Same goes for the PS5. Why not run at 10.28TFs at all times, as opposed to tippy toe'ing at 9.2?

 

[joe_zazen]

If it's only dropping 1-2% why would it even be mentioned as variable? That's nothing and wouldn't impact anything.

It does tho, and if you are a dev watching gdc video, it is the kind of info that should be included.

 

[Shmunter]

yeah i hate to say it, but @OsirisBlack is either a sad sociopath or working as a social marketer; either way a liability to any forum.

Damn really? This better be airtight before you condemn the man.

 

[SonGoku]

I'm aware of these figures. I'm exacty highlighting how regardless of the compression used, it won't compensate for PS5s improved IO unit throughput.

Both already given peak figures, so we know where they stand.

 

[CJY]

Wait...

Hold on...

The question that your statement now raised is that if he designed the console to be whisper quiet when going at max (i.e., 10.28TFs), why not have it run at that max at all times? Why risk this whole debacle about PS5 being less competent, and giving developers a harder time at optimizing their games?

If I am sneaking around someone's house and I can run just as quietly as I tippy toe, I would probably run, as opposed to tippy toe. Same goes for the PS5. Why not run at 10.28TFs at all times, as opposed to tippy toe'ing at 9.2?

That is an interesting question and I had the same thoughts as well. Many others are also confused about this, but I think that confusion lies in the fact that many are conflating "variable speeds" to boost clocks in traditional CPU/GPU.

I don't have an answer for, but Cerny said it's a paradigm shift in how he designed the system because the old way had too many unknowns. We're gonna have to wait to see.

Based on what Cerny is saying, my interpretation is that this new way of viewing the issue of power and heat is what has allowed him to push clocks higher while also being able to manage thermals and noise in a predictable fashion due to constant power delivery vs. variable power delivery. He also said the clocks could go even higher but the logic couldn't keep up with the clocks.

What I'm hearing is that he is doing a hell of a lot with little, and it's very smart, genius even. Dunno the die size, but there is significant savings to be made on silicon. 100m consoles x $20 (estaimted saving on silicone) = $2b.

 

[joe_zazen]

Wait...

Hold on...

The question that your statement now raised is that if he designed the console to be whisper quiet when going at max (i.e., 10.28TFs), why not have it run at that max at all times? Why risk this whole debacle about PS5 being less competent, and giving developers a harder time at optimizing their games?

If I am sneaking around someone's house and I can run just as quietly as I tippy toe, I would probably run, as opposed to tippy toe. Same goes for the PS5. Why not run at 10.28TFs at all times, as opposed to tippy toe'ing at 9.2?

if using this solution shaves dollars off the console design without any real downside in terms of on screen quality, then that is why.

remember, 2% freq = 10% power. That is not insignificant.

 

[CJY]

Both already given peak figures, so we know where they stand.

You're right actually. So why are they still discussing it and why is it being posted in here? I think the unknown is simply how much BCpack can compress things compared to Kraken. Kraken gives devs 10% more space on OD and SSD, right?

I actually don't care that much about this to be honest.

 

[SonGoku]

If it's only dropping 1-2% why would it even be mentioned as variable? That's nothing and wouldn't impact anything.

Because its a paradigm shift in the way they handle power. By making frequency variable and power constant they can accurately design a cooling solution for the worst case on top of enabling higher clocks. The big take away from this is that it'll allow them to design a cooler and quieter console

Cerny acknowledges that thermal solutions on prior generation hardware may not have been optimal, but the concept of operating to a set power budget makes the concept of heat dissipation an easier task to handle, despite the impressive clocks coming from the CPU and GPU.


"In some ways, it becomes a simpler problem because there are no more unknowns," Cerny says in his presentation. "There's no need to guess what power consumption the worst case game might have. As for the details of the cooling solution, we're saving them for our teardown - I think you'll be quite happy with what the engineering team came up with."

 

[joe_zazen]

Damn really? This better be airtight before you condemn the man.

i am not going to do anything irl, so no it doesn't.

But, if there is a reason like he is being held in Phil’s sex dungeon at gunpoint being forced to post, the yes, I apologise and retract.

 

[DiddyInAHellcat]

It's alot of threads being created about PS5 vs Xbox Series X which one is more powerful etc etc . I been a long time PlayStation fan but also like other systems so here is my opinion I had a PlayStation 4 pro and decided to buy a Xbox One X because of the 6TF . I was honestly underwhelmed it didn't blow me away like I thought it would Gears of war 5 was the most boring single player game I ever played in my entire life . With that being said I think the next-gen will come Down to exactly what this gen came down to and that's which ever console has the best games ! Most people don't care about T-Flops 12 vs 10 doesn't matter the games will decide which console will sell the most units . that's all folks

 

[Bo_Hazem]

People talk like Xsex somehow magically won the next gen just because of minor Tflop difference.

Truth is that Playstation is still much stronger as brand and if the only difference is this number on paper, no major flaws like big price difference, broken hardware, no games etc = Playstation is the most likely winner.

Even shitty ass wii sold like hot cakes so it should be clear that masses and casuals wont care about pure power, and they definetly wont see the difference of 2 tflops on the screen.

What they see is games.

And if one of them offers literally instant loading and another doesnt, then that will get more attention as it would be really cool new feature that even casuals understand.

ps. I asked from relatives that dont even game

"what is xbox series x?" and what is "playstation 5" = nobody had an idea that what Xsex is, but most knew that it is probably new playstation as the knew that there is ps3 and ps4

Wanna laugh? The PS5 is comparable here to RTX2080 (10.1 TF) and the XSX is comparable to 2080 Super (11.9 TF), and for a bigger stretch, 2080ti (13.4 TF)

All running same settings:




If it's that small, then SSD can push that even further and equal or might as well surpass XSX because of not needing to overload CPU/GPU/RAM as its minimal compressed speed goes from 8-9GB/s up to 22GB/s!!!

FIN

EDIT: Seems like a good #1000 post

 

[ethomaz]

It's alot of threads being created about PS5 vs Xbox Series X which one is more powerful etc etc . I been a long time PlayStation fan but also like other systems so here is my opinion I had a PlayStation 4 pro and decided to buy a Xbox One X because of the 6TF . I was honestly underwhelmed it didn't blow me away like I thought it would Gears of war 5 was the most boring single player game I ever played in my entire life . With that being said I think the next-gen will come Down to exactly what this gen came down to and that's which ever console has the best games ! Most people don't care about T-Flops 12 vs 10 doesn't matter the games will decide which console will sell the most units . that's all folks

That I believe has nothing do to with the hardware.
X is really a great hardware.
But the software output from MS including their big AAA hits had a big drop in quality.

That is why they are trying to rebuild the studios with aquisitions.

 

[Shmunter]

Does anyone have any insight/explanation behind what Cerny said here:



How does processing dense geometry consume less power than simple geometry? That truly does sound counter-intuitive. I would have thought more geometry -> more processing -> more energy -> more heat & fan noise.


I don't like him suspecting why his PS4 Pro is heating up so much, he's the architect, so I would expect him to know exactly why it's heating up so much.

It's the only part of the presentation that made me raise my eyebrows a little bit.

The general thinking about why PS4 heated up so much on menus was because of unlocked framerates, but this should now be calling into queston.

Yeah no idea what’s up with the tech being counterintuitive. Apart from that the Cerney phrasing was just a figure of speech.