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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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ZywyPL

Banned
So that SSD will free up CPU/GPU/RAM for better draw distances and textures and framerates.

The Secret Souce Delusions are strong in this one... Maybe Sony should redesign the PS5 to have just a quad-core CPU. 18CU GPU, and 8GB RAM, basically make another PS4, BUT - with 16 channel 2TB drive! Just think about the possibilities, dear lord!...

I have a strong feeling that other than obviously faster loading times (if the CPU allows), the only difference/advantage PS5 will have over XBX will be higher res textures (texels), as mentioned some time ago by one developer, and that's really it. Because textures don't require any processing power at all as oppose to everything else. Because other than bandwidth the XBX SSD is designed to do exactly the same stuff PS5 SSD is.
 

Bo_Hazem

Banned
I don't think people are aware of quite how effective proper 3D/binaural audio is and unfortunately conveying it to people without them trying it is akin to VR.

Before I put on a VR headset my assumption was it's just going to be like a big screen wrapped around in front of me, in 3D and it would simply be "more immersive". Even with all the hype and explanations out there, I wasn't prepared for "presence". When a character gets up in your face you really feel them stood there. I thought I'd still be looking into the world, not literally placed within it. This is the exact same thing for that can be achieved for audio.


Building a convincing virtual soundscape is a vast technological undertaking in itself, but it's just the beginning. You have to convey it to the individual and this appears to be the first solution that not just covers every link in the chain but goes balls to the wall with it, providing the means to do it properly.

You've got the soundscape itself and the audio properties of the assets, you've got the convolution and bouncing of the audio itself, you have a hundred or so of those objects all emitting their own audio within that space and they're all dynamic, mobile and being updated hundreds of times a second... think bullets whizzing through the air, planes flying overhead, raindrops hitting the floor, team mates calling out to you, wind blowing through the trees. You then probe sound from the player's location and have to run it through a transfer function that mimics the acoustic properties a human head and most importantly the structure of the inner ear and how sound bounces throughout it, the more personalised it is, the better.

It's not just stereo but wider, it's not virtual surround, it's not more fidelity in itself.. Your brain should be able to pinpoint the location of everything around you, not just forwards/backwards, left/right but also height. Not just a case of direction but how far away too. This has functional gameplay implications too. Competitive online games will be great.

3D audio has appeared many times over many years often with a lot of trickery, but never with such an expansive amount of potentially dynamic audio sources; and with a pure path from those sources to the ear.

I've been privileged to have a sound engineer create a personalised HRTF profile back in 2016 by using probe mics in my ears and creating impulse responses of my head/ears. The audio I got to listen to was recorded in New York on the usual neumann dummy head with in-ear mics before having additional algorithms applied to it. I listened back on some in-ear monitors worth about £40 and it was the most convincing audio I've ever heard in my life. The striking nature of it made me feel like I was more there than I actually would be if I was really there. "More human than human?"...."More there than there!".

If this can be achieved in a virtual world where imagination as opposed to reality is the driving force, then that's something truly special. And Cerny said all the right things to make me think it can be done. Even cooler is that they at least want virtualise this to make the best of less optimal sound devices such as TVs and Soundbars.


From what we've heard so far MS/NinjaTheory have simply said XSX has "3d audio" whereas Cerny has detailed a promising and highly custom solution in hardware, software and potential approaches to custom HRTF. If it turns out that Sony does indeed have the stronger solution then that is honestly more important to me -- and I think in terms of moving the industry forward -- than ~1980p vs ~2160p for eg.

However, I don't mean to be fanboyish, I'm just stating whats important to me and how awesome this could be. If XSX comes up with something similar, that's great, the more standardised this is and the more people who at least get a chance to try it, the better.


Even 24yrs later, the best quick and dirty example of binaural audio out there is probably the famous qsound virtual barbershop, by comparison the soundscape is constrained and the fidelity relatively poor. And without a tailored HRTF profile it lacks that real sense of locality, decent earphones are also more effective on it than headphones, it does not work with speakers. It's still super cool though and a great little taster, though I'm sure half this forum have heard it by now:



Man, audio is so MASSIVE to me, and to most of my gamer friends. Some are actually considering my Astro A40 with a mixer to be "peasant" level :lollipop_tears_of_joy: That's why I hope Sony will be smart and make the new WH-1000MX4 compatible with PS5 and its audio tech, even WH-1000MX3:

maxresdefault.jpg


If not, I would wait for PlayStation version headset, better than the current Platinum which already supports 3D Audio so it should go for PS5 with ease:

fd3d8c339365c83e01ac62365cba3856


144_495x700.jpg


HYPED!
 

pasterpl

Member
Square enix dev....


CuiRJYP.png



I also thought same as you, then I kept reading........mmmmm.......Are you absolutely sure...?

Less micromanaging and crunch time on consoles and nobody will use it with both new consoles having fast SSD........???

Every scene has a micro managed RAM budget currently....and needing 4K with hi res and less RAM 16 GB in both max for 4K ?

maybe Cerny listened to devs after all.



We dont make games - read more.

I think that we all somehow tend to forget that xbsex also have ssd, there is huge speed difference vs ps5 one, but it is still a massive upgrade vs current gen hdd’s, question is; will the devs utilise this extra bandwidth ps5 ssd offers or will they settle for huge improvements offered by xbsex ssd speeds and don’t bother with squeezing extra from ps5 ssd. Don’t forget about ms secret sauce (people tend to forget about the velocity architecture and all details involved). I am sure that there will be some devs pushing these machine to the max but I doubt we will see anything that reaches these levels before the mid gen refresh.
 

geordiemp

Member
I think that we all somehow tend to forget that xbsex also have ssd, there is huge speed difference vs ps5 one, but it is still a massive upgrade vs current gen hdd’s, question is; will the devs utilise this extra bandwidth ps5 ssd offers or will they settle for huge improvements offered by xbsex ssd speeds and don’t bother with squeezing extra from ps5 ssd. Don’t forget about ms secret sauce (people tend to forget about the velocity architecture and all details involved). I am sure that there will be some devs pushing these machine to the max but I doubt we will see anything that reaches these levels before the mid gen refresh.

Yes series X also has a good SSD, hence why 3rd parties may use SSD for assets for their games. Next gen will win, PC users will have to upgrade to play the latest and greatest lol.

But its nice to see you considering...its not so black and white is it ?

But I agree that the extra bandwidth of the Ps5 might not be taken into account or fully utilised except first party, but do not be dismissive of devs using fast SSD for more than just load times, I think they will if it saves them significant time, money and budget.

PC users will upgrade anyway will be the logic.
 
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Kumomeme

Member
Random personal thought: Tempest audio is Sony's new attempt at making something that becomes a common thing in the future, like they did with DVD and Blu-ray.
not suprise is that thing end up in their laptop later infuture or their other tech
but vr definitely benefit from that
 

Bo_Hazem

Banned
Average Xsx ram is about the same speed as PS5s ram.

Not just that, it's only 10GB true gaming ram with another 3GB at 336GB/s. But overall, because of the slow SSD in the XSX, you must do at least 1-2 cycles more to deliver the same data compared to PS5. Sony went guns blazin with this SSD and installed the Kraken that can squeez up to 22GB/s of compressed data compared to 4.8GB/s on XSX. It'll be a very funny comparison when the XSX falls short at the end.

Reminds me of the Nissan Patrol 4x4 beating the Porsche 918 after the later beating Bugatti Veyron. The Xbox fans reaction will be like Richard Hammond in his Porsche :lollipop_tears_of_joy:

 

BGs

Industry Professional
I think (keyword: 'think' = my opinion) that he's referring to his previous claims. I just now came to realization that on one of the first AMD's keynotes this year, they said that RDNA has a 50% advantage over GCN architecture...

BG's joke TFlops number for PS5 was always 13.8.

9.2 TF x 1.5(50% increase) equals....... yup 13.8


Anywho, that's just what I can think of. Let's wait for BGs to reply.


Edit: grammar
exact.

Sorry guys, last night I was trying to explain where my 13.8 came from.

I feel better. but I'm still in bed.

How are you here? all right?
 

rnlval

Member
And even then it is the smallest gap if assessing the difference, The results between the two will be negligible in real world, let’s compare;

Xbox One S - 1.4 TF
PlayStation 4 - 1.843 TF (+32%)

PlayStation 4 Pro - 4.2 TF
Xbox One X - 6 TFLOPS (+43%)

PlayStation 5 - 10.28 TF
Xbox Series X - 12.16 TF (+18%)

Waste of forum database space to focus on this difference over, and over, and over, and over....
FYI, Xbox Series X's 12.15 TF (+18% to +20%) backs it's TFLOPS increase with +25% memory bandwidth increase while PS5's 448 GB/s has extra CPU client besides the GPU.

PlayStation 5's 10.28 TFLOPS with -2% lands on 10.074 TF

PC CPU's 128bit DDR4-3800 has 60 GB/s memory bandwidth.


Xbox Series X's memory bandwidth allocation example
GPU: 500 GB/s
CPU: 60 GB/s

PlayStation 5's memory bandwidth allocation example
GPU: 388 GB/s
CPU: 60 GB/s


When CPU's memory bandwidth allocation is factored in, the difference is 28.9%


Xbox Series X's memory bandwidth allocation example 2
GPU: 520 GB/s
CPU: 40 GB/s


PlayStation 5's memory bandwidth allocation example 2
GPU: 408 GB/s
CPU: 40 GB/s

When CPU's memory bandwidth allocation is factored in, the difference is 27.4%
 

Shmunter

Member
Square enix dev at other place


hyUaeph.png

So that tells me there is a possiblility even third party will go balls in for lolading from SSD if they can make games less costly...

Micromanaging RAM and lots of crunch..... or less ?

Series X and Ps5 will benefit, and PC will need upgrades if many devs indeed do this, and old consoles will be left in the dust if this happens.

Early days...who knows ?
Yes ssd removes the need for a lot of wizardry to pull of the great games we see.

Now it will be easier. The lazy devs meme will actually become true. They will also become fat, fat and lazy if they don’t put all that effort towards other things in the games.

Thinking about it, pc’s may need ssd support sooner than later if this becomes such an attractive dev proposition.
 
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Shmunter

Member
FYI, Xbox Series X's 12.15 TF (+18% to +20%) backs it's TFLOPS increase with +25% memory bandwidth increase while PS5's 448 GB/s has extra CPU client besides the GPU.

PlayStation 5's 10.28 TFLOPS with -2% lands on 10.074 TF

PC CPU's 128bit DDR4-3800 has 60 GB/s memory bandwidth.


Xbox Series X's memory bandwidth allocation example
GPU: 500 GB/s
CPU: 60 GB/s

PlayStation 5's memory bandwidth allocation example
GPU: 388 GB/s
CPU: 60 GB/s


When CPU's memory bandwidth allocation is factored in, the difference is 28.9%


Xbox Series X's memory bandwidth allocation example 2
GPU: 520 GB/s
CPU: 40 GB/s


PlayStation 5's memory bandwidth allocation example 2
GPU: 408 GB/s
CPU: 40 GB/s

When CPU's memory bandwidth allocation is factored in, the difference is 27.4%
Are you suggesting PS5 is bandwidth starved and can never reach its theoretical peak?

Sorry, over my head.
 

SgtCaffran

Member
On the other hand Cerny mentioned like 12 channels for SSD, and looking at the picture it has 12 memory NAND modules and 12 channels to connect to them. This makes it very interesting as each can be accessed simultaneously which not only increases bandwidth but also decreases latency. Normally PCIe 4.0 SSDs use 4 lanes for interconnect, for Xbox Series X this seems the same, but for PS5 it seems the lanes are tripled. So at least on the latency end PS5 may have solved it and use the SSD for OS if 5.5GB/s uncompressed is high enough speed for it.

This btw proves that only the speed metrics 2.4GB/s vs 5.5GB/s is not enough to compare the two, there are other thins behind those numbers that make their interoperability very very different. For 4 lanes vs 12 lanes at least I can say that PS5 should have considerably lower latency to access SSD vs Series X's classic approach of 4 lanes of PCIe 4.0.

Those are custom ASICs (Application-specific integrated circuit) specifically designed to handle compression/decompression algorithms and hence use much less die space than being 9 core zen 2. That 9 core zen 2 figure is given just to understand their power, these chips real size are much smaller. CPUs are generalized processors, tase chips do only one job and thus designed, engineered and produced for only for it.

I think you are right! The Phison SSD controller for the Xbox Series X is the E19T.



This chart posted by xool xool shows the Phison E19T used in the Series X uses 4 channels. The XsX SSD is 1TB so we can assume they use 16 NAND chips of 512 Gbit or 64 Gbyte (16 * 64 = 1024 Gbyte). So the XsX uses 1 channel per 4 NAND chips. This means the XsX SSD has four banks.

We know the PS5 uses 12 channels in combination with 12 chips. We don't really know what chips it uses because the 825 GB total size divided by 12 results in 550 Gbit or 68.75 Gbyte NAND chips, which don't exist. But regardless, the PS5 uses 1 full channel per chip instead of per four chips like the XsX! The PS5 only has one bank of chips.

Looking at the Phison chart again, if we compare the E19T with four channels and the E18 with eight channels, the random IOPS is almost doubled. Now I am by no means an SSD expert but I would be willing to make a crude estimate that the PS5 might have three (based on the number of channels) or four (based on the number of banks) times the random IOPS performance compared to the XsX

TL;DR:
The XsX uses four NAND chips per channel with four channels total. The PS5 uses one NAND chip per channel with twelve channels total. This could mean that random IOPS (random input/output operations) for the PS5 are a factor 3 to 4 higher (estimate). So the sequential read speeds of 2.4 GB/s and 5.5 GB/s might not tell the full story.
 

geordiemp

Member
Yes ssd removes the need for a lot of wizardry to pull of the great games we see.

Now it will be easier. The lazy devs meme will actually become true. They will also become fat, fat and lazy if they don’t put all that effort towards other things in the games.

Thinking about it, pc’s may need ssd support sooner than later if this becomes such an attractive dev proposition.

Agree, this could be the norm for multiplat as well, this is just a square enix dev, but who knows how many will.
 

Shmunter

Member
Nope, XSX nearly operates like gaming PC i.e. slower address range for CPU logic and audio while faster memory address range for the GPU.
But that’s in ideal terms right? Since the bus is shared all mem calls follow each other, a fast mem call needs to wait for a potentially slower mem call to finish.

If calls are 50/50 then it’s an average of both. Could be 90/10 for all I know tho. Probably highly scenario related.
 

Thedtrain

Member
exact.

Sorry guys, last night I was trying to explain where my 13.8 came from.

I feel better. but I'm still in bed.

How are you here? all right?
Glad to hear you’re starting to feel better.
Life is grinding to a halt around here. We can’t produce enough goldfish to keep up with demand. 🤓
 

rnlval

Member
Not just that, it's only 10GB true gaming ram with another 3GB at 336GB/s. But overall, because of the slow SSD in the XSX, you must do at least 1-2 cycles more to deliver the same data compared to PS5. Sony went guns blazin with this SSD and installed the Kraken that can squeez up to 22GB/s of compressed data compared to 4.8GB/s on XSX. It'll be a very funny comparison when the XSX falls short at the end.

Reminds me of the Nissan Patrol 4x4 beating the Porsche 918 after the later beating Bugatti Veyron. The Xbox fans reaction will be like Richard Hammond in his Porsche :lollipop_tears_of_joy:


The idea, in basic terms at least, is pretty straightforward - the game package that sits on storage essentially becomes extended memory, allowing 100GB of game assets stored on the SSD to be instantly accessible by the developer. It's a system that Microsoft calls the Velocity Architecture and the SSD itself is just one part of the system.

"Our second component is a high-speed hardware decompression block that can deliver over 6GB/s," reveals Andrew Goossen. "This is a dedicated silicon block that offloads decompression work from the CPU and is matched to the SSD so that decompression is never a bottleneck. The decompression hardware supports Zlib for general data and a new compression [system] called BCPack that is tailored to the GPU textures that typically comprise the vast majority of a game's package size."

----


CPU can process world simulation independently from texture loads.

MS's demonstrated large scale simulator



Heavy CPU workload has a higher impact on PS5's 448 GB/s memory bandwidth allocation when compared to XSX's 560 GB/s
 
Just posting this out of interest, I'm not here implying the gulf would be closed or anything, but this is kind of interesting. It does sort of feel like Sony hasn't begun trying in earnest to pitch the PS5 yet, GDC was just that, for developers.

"The stuff I'm hearing from developers is very different from what I'm seeing in Sony's marketing strategy,"

"I'm getting texts and DMs from developers being like, this is such a shame, the PS5 is so superior in all these other ways that they're not actually able to message right now, or can't talk about right now. I heard from at least three different people, since the Cerny thing, that the PS5 is actually the superior piece of hardware in a lot of different ways despite what we're seeing in these spec sheets."




Nah, for real? You joking.
 

Bo_Hazem

Banned
I'm not hundred percent sold on it over good surround sound.
Hell that barbershop just sounds like Stereo to me

Man, you seriously need to upgrade your gear. It feels insanely creepy as fuck. You won't understand it without proper set, I'm listening to it from my PC and with Sony small earphones that came with my cellphone 5 years ago (I think with Xperia Z3 or even older the Xperia S).

High quality audio is MASSIVE and cheap sound quality is an immersion breaker for me, that's why I only use headphones even when watching Netflix on my TV I have a 5-10 meters aux extension :lollipop_tears_of_joy:
 

Marlenus

Member
Are you suggesting PS5 is bandwidth starved and can never reach its theoretical peak?

Sorry, over my head.

Maybe slightly as the 5700XT gets quite a boost when you OC the memory and leave the cores alone. Core only overclocks give quite limited perfrmance boosts (7-8% overclocks give you 2-3% performance increases).
 

-kb-

Member
Heavy CPU workload has a higher impact on PS5's 448 GB/s memory bandwidth allocation when compared to XSX's 560 GB/s

I am pretty sure its the opposite, because when the CPU uses the memory bus on the XSX its not running at 560GB/s but at 336GB/s (due to it not wanting to use part of the fast 10GB), this increases the time the CPU has to wait for the transaction and also decrease the effective bandwidth of the bus.
 
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Bo_Hazem

Banned
The idea, in basic terms at least, is pretty straightforward - the game package that sits on storage essentially becomes extended memory, allowing 100GB of game assets stored on the SSD to be instantly accessible by the developer. It's a system that Microsoft calls the Velocity Architecture and the SSD itself is just one part of the system.

"Our second component is a high-speed hardware decompression block that can deliver over 6GB/s," reveals Andrew Goossen. "This is a dedicated silicon block that offloads decompression work from the CPU and is matched to the SSD so that decompression is never a bottleneck. The decompression hardware supports Zlib for general data and a new compression [system] called BCPack that is tailored to the GPU textures that typically comprise the vast majority of a game's package size."

----


CPU can process world simulation independently from texture loads.

MS's demonstrated large scale simulator



Heavy CPU workload has a higher impact on PS5's 448 GB/s memory bandwidth allocation when compared to XSX's 560 GB/s


Wonderful simulator. But, XSX only has 10GB in that matter, and 22GB/s is much higher than even 6GB/s. It's funny that barely surpasses PS5 RAW 5.5GB/s. So yes, Xbox is on damage control here. Still, amazing simulator with zero interactions. Will try it out on my PC.
 

Shmunter

Member
Maybe slightly as the 5700XT gets quite a boost when you OC the memory and leave the cores alone. Core only overclocks give quite limited perfrmance boosts (7-8% overclocks give you 2-3% performance increases).
That would be quite the oversight after all the hoohah with the focus on data speed with the ssd. But stranger things have happened.
 
I think you are right! The Phison SSD controller for the Xbox Series X is the E19T.



This chart posted by xool xool shows the Phison E19T used in the Series X uses 4 channels. The XsX SSD is 1TB so we can assume they use 16 NAND chips of 512 Gbit or 64 Gbyte (16 * 64 = 1024 Gbyte). So the XsX uses 1 channel per 4 NAND chips. This means the XsX SSD has four banks.

We know the PS5 uses 12 channels in combination with 12 chips. We don't really know what chips it uses because the 825 GB total size divided by 12 results in 550 Gbit or 68.75 Gbyte NAND chips, which don't exist. But regardless, the PS5 uses 1 full channel per chip instead of per four chips like the XsX! The PS5 only has one bank of chips.

Looking at the Phison chart again, if we compare the E19T with four channels and the E18 with eight channels, the random IOPS is almost doubled. Now I am by no means an SSD expert but I would be willing to make a crude estimate that the PS5 might have three (based on the number of channels) or four (based on the number of banks) times the random IOPS performance compared to the XsX

TL;DR:
The XsX uses four NAND chips per channel with four channels total. The PS5 uses one NAND chip per channel with twelve channels total. This could mean that random IOPS (random input/output operations) for the PS5 are a factor 3 to 4 higher (estimate). So the sequential read speeds of 2.4 GB/s and 5.5 GB/s might not tell the full story.

I rewatched the conference with a tech friend and he couldn't believe that fucking thing was in a console, to me was like "oh double, so cool" but to him sounded like Cerny talked about having a Xenomorph in that machine.
 
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Bo_Hazem

Banned
Real question.. do you not see the series x as really well thought out gaming machine? They both have different goals and both were well crafted to achieve those.

Xbox Series X is INSANELY good. What we are doing here is something similar to 600x zooming of Digital Foundry. Overall, you should be happy with any box... assuming there are good, unrestrained next gen games to play :lollipop_horns:
 

joe_zazen

Member
Exactly. I doubt Jason was making that up, he was obviously fed wrong info by devs. Developers are also people and some of them have their preferred platforms and might also show signs of fanboy syndrome, just look at VFX and his love for PC in this very thread.

yeah, you are going to have to post some direct quotes from JS to prove this as fanboys and marketers seem to like misquoting him to feed their narratives. Guy said both were targeting over stadia power, iirc that is all.

At any rate, actual devs laugh at TF wars, so I am as well.




I find it curious as to why so many people had that number and higher because there were a lot of people saying that.

MS is the company that wrote letters to congress using the names of dead people to lobby, and Gates himself has used fake grassroot orgs to push for legislation. Also, FUD & EEE were internal terms coined by MS management. You dont rule the world by playing nice nice.

so if raising expectation followed by disappointment is a viable tactic, i dont see why it wouldn't be used by an ends justifies the means company like MS.
 

pasterpl

Member
How about this?

Cerny said ps5 is like 58 ps4 CUs .
Ps4 shaders - 18 x 64 = 1152 shaders - at 800 mhz - 1.84 TFs
Ps5 shaders in ps4 terms - 58 × 64 = 3712 shaders at 2230mhz - 16.55 TFs GCN flops = 10.23 TFs rdna 2 flops( 36 *64*2*2230)

tflop is tflop doesn’t matter gcn or rdna 1 or 2, what changes is power consumption/efficiency per watt, also heat reduces as there is less electricity needed, but flop is a flop (no pun intended)
 
I rewatched the conference with a tech friend and he couldn't believe that fucking thing was in a console, to me was like "oh double, so cool" but to him sounded like Cerny talked about having a Xenomorph in that machine.
Yeah it's so great, Harrison Ford will not be looking for the Ark of the Covenant or shit like this. He is trying to get his hands on a PS5 in his next movie.
 
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rnlval

Member
But that’s in ideal terms right? Since the bus is shared all mem calls follow each other, a fast mem call needs to wait for a potentially slower mem call to finish.

If calls are 50/50 then it’s an average of both. Could be 90/10 for all I know tho. Probably highly scenario related.
There's a reason why I cited PC's DDR4-3800 with 60 GB/s memory bandwidth since gaming PCs already delivering +120 fps with 128bit DDR4-3200 with 51 GB/s.

Another heavy CPU process example from PC is large scale RTS games like Ashes of the Singularity.

Ryzen Zen 2 with 8 cores at 3.5Ghz yields ~896 GFLOPS which is less than XBO GPU's 1.3 TFLOPS with 68 GB/s memory bandwidth or Radeon HD 7770's 1.28 TFLOPS with 72GB/s memory bandwidth

Remember, Zen 2 with 8 cores is not a GPU.
 

-kb-

Member
Nope, XSX nearly operates like gaming PC i.e. slower address range for CPU logic and audio while faster memory address range for the GPU.

Yeah it is similar to a gaming PC, but in a gaming PC the slower and faster RAM aren't a shared pool, accessing your main memory in a PC doesnt stop the GPU accessing the video RAM. However on the XSX accessing the slow portion of the RAM does stop the GPU accessing the fast RAM.
 

K.N.W.

Member
Wait!! Since variable clocks, if a PS5 SLIM comes out, and is quiter and cooler, it would also sustain higher clocks and become faster! I'm getting Xbox One S vibes.
 

Bo_Hazem

Banned
No, he's right, even RTX 2080TI struggles to run that game at stable 30FPS at native 4K with Ray Tracing. Native 4K60 with Ray Tracing is just not physically possible on next gen consoles, you'll have to cut the resolution down or use machine learning.

Speaking of Ray Tracing, most people didn't watch and listen carefully here:



Or just listen to it from the beginning at 29:51

We should be ready to see a PS5 game with full ray tracing pretty soon, I guess.
 

rnlval

Member
Wonderful simulator. But, XSX only has 10GB in that matter, and 22GB/s is much higher than even 6GB/s. It's funny that barely surpasses PS5 RAW 5.5GB/s. So yes, Xbox is on damage control here. Still, amazing simulator with zero interactions. Will try it out on my PC.
FS2020 has interactions e.g. crashing into the ground or buildings, weather influence on player's aircraft and 'etc'.
X64 PC servers have been handling large scale MMO game servers with many interactions.

PS5's 22 GB/s is theoretical.

XSX's 10 GB of memory comes from 560 GB/s GDDR6 memory, not from a higher latency SSD storage device.

As long graphics workloads remain in 560 GB/s 10GB address range, then XSX GPU can reach it's optimal read/write rates.

CPU can process its world simulation with 6GB address range, hence why I cited PC's 128bit DDR4-3800 with 60 GB/s example.

Audio processing will have its memory consumption allocation.
 

Bo_Hazem

Banned
FS2020 has interactions e.g. crashing into the ground or buildings, weather influence on player's aircraft and 'etc'.
X64 PC servers have been handling large scale MMO game servers with many interactions.

PS5's 22 GB/s is theoretical.

XSX's 10 GB of memory comes from 560 GB/s GDDR6 memory, not from a higher latency SSD storage device.

As long graphics workloads remain in 560 GB/s 10GB address range, then XSX GPU can reach it's optimal read/write rates.

CPU can process its world simulation with 6GB address range, hence why I cited PC's 128bit DDR4-3800 with 60 GB/s example.

Audio processing will have its memory consumption allocation.

All those numbers should be loaded to ram first to go beyond "theoretical" 6GB/s, so that's called "bottleneck" that will show later next gen. With that, you need 4 cycles to match 1 cycle of that 22GB/s (3.66 times more data). So PS5 has a huge advantage here that we should see later on, especially for 1st party games.
 
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joe_zazen

Member
And this why I think these devs are coming out trying to defend PS5, they are protecting their interests.

I thought that at the beginning of this generation with x1-ps4. How could Mr.1.84 not have better games. But in reality, the experiences on offer were the same through the whole gen. 900p vs 1080 didnt matter, you still press buttons to pretend kill and make numbers go up. Pewpew is pewpew. So yeah, all those saying play where your friends are because it doesn't matter, were right.

Yes ps4 has psvr, and that is something not doable on x1 or switch i guess, so the above is not entirely true. But for flat games? A 1.3 TF x1 gamer had just as much ‘fun‘ as a 1.84 ps4 guy, or even a 13TF nvidia guy.

I put fun in quotes because gaming is a disgustingly CONSUMECONSUMECONSUME-fear-of-missing-out-hype-driven industry that relies on addiction and psychological manipulation to maximize ROI. Why do you need that $1200 gfx card? That extra 16% TF? $2000 per year in games and services? That $300 controller? That 144hz monitor? That $4000 oled tv? $2k soundsystem? $1500 ipad? Hype driven fear of missing out. And companies use this stuff in all their marketing, which in 2020, includes manipulating social media. So how much of gaming is fun, and how much is manipulated psychology pushing compulsion and consumption? Who knows.

Nobody’s life will be better just because they are playing pewpew with a few more TF, a $300 controller, a $1200 card, or whatever. It doesn't matter. In fact, I suspect not playing videogames at all and filling your life with other things than vg forum fights and General Ford Skinner box button pressing is best, esp if you are a kid.
 
Speaking of Ray Tracing, most people didn't watch and listen carefully here:



Or just listen to it from the beginning at 29:51

We should be ready to see a PS5 game with full ray tracing pretty soon, I guess.

I think that maybe we are underestimating how much RT will be a thing.
It won't be full RT especially at 60 fps, but it's not about the on\off presets you got on PCs which change framerates of 30% like crazy. On consoles, devs can make every single scene with complete personalizzation of RT features, if one scene is too heavy for other things they can scale the less evident RT stuff back for the most performance improvements and the less visual tradeoff, than start again in the next instance.
Death Stranding and TLOU 2 runs on a 7850 ish, Gears 5 got 60 fps on Jaguar, consoles has always been insane.
 
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rnlval

Member
I am pretty sure its the opposite, because when the CPU uses the memory bus on the XSX its not running at 560GB/s but at 336GB/s (due to it not wanting to use part of the fast 10GB), this increases the time the CPU has to wait for the transaction and also decrease the effective bandwidth of the bus.
Are you claiming CPU will consume 336 GB/s bandwidth? Note why I cited PC's 128bit DDR4-3800's 60 GB/s example.

Are you claiming CPU and GPU can't individually access GDDR6 memory chips at the same time (hint: it's multiple 32bit memory channels)?

Are you claiming CPU and GPU access memory pool 1 second after each other?
 

Bluntman

Member
Wait!! Since variable clocks, if a PS5 SLIM comes out, and is quiter and cooler, it would also sustain higher clocks and become faster! I'm getting Xbox One S vibes.

Nope, because in the PS5 the clocks aren't tied to temperatures otherwise every box would have different performance. Also the boxes would have different performance in the summer and in the winter.

The clocks are tied to a set budget of power consumption of the APU and is the same in every console.

It's not the PC kind of boost clocks. It was very unfortunate that Cerny used the phrase "boost clock", many misunderstandings.

Edit: thinking about it, it's possible for the Slim version to get an APU on better fabrication process than the current 7nm+ which of course would mean less constraints on power consumption which could theoretically lead to better performance. That's up to Sony if they want that and set the consumption budget accordingly.
 
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I thought that at the beginning of this generation with x1-ps4. How could Mr.1.84 not have better games. But in reality, the experiences on offer were the same through the whole gen. 900p vs 1080 didnt matter, you still press buttons to pretend kill and make numbers go up. Pewpew is pewpew. So yeah, all those saying play where your friends are because it doesn't matter, were right.

Yes ps4 has psvr, and that is something not doable on x1 or switch i guess, so the above is not entirely true. But for flat games? A 1.3 TF x1 gamer had just as much ‘fun‘ as a 1.84 ps4 guy, or even a 13TF nvidia guy.

I put fun in quotes because gaming is a disgustingly CONSUMECONSUMECONSUME-fear-of-missing-out-hype-driven industry that relies on addiction and psychological manipulation to maximize ROI. Why do you need that $1200 gfx card? That extra 16% TF? $2000 per year in games and services? That $300 controller? That 144hz monitor? That $4000 oled tv? $2k soundsystem? $1500 ipad? Hype driven fear of missing out. And companies use this stuff in all their marketing, which in 2020, includes manipulating social media. So how much of gaming is fun, and how much is manipulated psychology pushing compulsion and consumption? Who knows.

Nobody’s life will be better just because they are playing pewpew with a few more TF, a $300 controller, a $1200 card, or whatever. It doesn't matter. In fact, I suspect not playing videogames at all and filling your life with other things than vg forum fights and General Ford Skinner box button pressing is best, esp if you are a kid.
Couldn't agree more.
 

Reindeer

Member
2.23GHZ pipe dream on PS5

Reality, 7NM Navi 10 40cu

PS5
yeah, you are going to have to post some direct quotes from JS to prove this as fanboys and marketers seem to like misquoting him to feed their narratives. Guy said both were targeting over stadia power, iirc that is all.

At any rate, actual devs laugh at TF wars, so I am as well.






MS is the company that wrote letters to congress using the names of dead people to lobby, and Gates himself has used fake grassroot orgs to push for legislation. Also, FUD & EEE were internal terms coined by MS management. You dont rule the world by playing nice nice.

so if raising expectation followed by disappointment is a viable tactic, i dont see why it wouldn't be used by an ends justifies the means company like MS.

Fair enough, maybe I'm being unreasonable to towards Jason. However, he did say that PS5 GPU will be more powerful than 2080. I just don't buy these devs coming out and crying about PS5 when I saw on a video dev basically brushing Series X aside and saying how excited he was for PS5, all because he had issues with Microsoft in the past. Then you got Gearbox who tried to underplay Series X and being excited for PS5 because they got console exclusive coming out for PS5. This just shows that devs can have their bias based on certain factors. You also had Ready at Dawn dev coming out in his defence of PS5 and they are rumoured to be making another exclusive for Sony. And there's Capcom employee doing the same, same Capcom that has tighter relations with Sony as we all know. I'm sure some devs could be sincere in what they say, but I've seen enough bias for me to be sceptical.
 
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-kb-

Member
Are you claiming CPU will consume 336 GB/s bandwidth? Note why I cited PC's 128bit DDR4-3800's 60 GB/s example.

Are you claiming CPU and GPU can't individually access GDDR6 memory chips at the same time (hint: it's multiple 32bit memory channels)?

Are you claiming CPU and GPU access memory pool 1 second after each other?

They cannot access the GDDR6 memory chips at the same time. The memory controller will likely timeslice or have some sort of bus mastering approach to decided who gets priority of the bandwidth. When the CPU access the bus the GPU cannot. Even if they could access them at the same time the bandwidth would be tiny for the 'simultaneous access' memory it would have to be allocated with access at 236GB/s max.
 
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Bo_Hazem

Banned
No, what Reiner and Colin said could still be true despite the TF difference. TFs don't tell the whole story w/r/t benchmarks.

Even so, we are only looking at an extremely minescule 16% difference in TF worst case...it's negligible. So devs may have said PS5 was "faster" because things like the SSD and supporting hardware make the biggest difference between the platforms.

I'm amazed Sony was able to get within 16% with 50% less Silicon. If Sony wanted to have blown past 12TF they could have, but it would have resulted in a much more expensive console.

And PS5 Pro should be at $400 with butterfly technique (36+36=72CU's) for a whooping 20.6TF! Who knows, probably with that mid-gen refreshes we get PS5 Slim on RDNA3 just like what happened this gen (1.83TF to 2.1TF on Slim) but remain the same TF number or even boost further! All depends on how much more, but sticking with RDNA2 should be much cheaper overall in the long run.
 
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