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[SonGoku]

All games must run on lockhart, which will have 6-8 gb ram and a slower ssd, so games will run fine on xsx. Maybe not with all textures being 4K, but still fine. Like how x1 requirement means x1x games run fine because the console doesn't ever get pushed to the limit.

We wont ever get third parties pushing either ps5 or xsx, at least not until MS stops supporting Lockhart in 2029.

Fuck that garbage i hope ms isn't stupid enough to do that
Lockart should have 16gb ram (256 bit bus) and same CPU, they can use lower quality bin chips for 350-400GB/s or 12GB (192 bit bus 336GB/s) with stripped down OS features (11GB available to games)
6TF GPU & 336GB/s should be fine to target 1080p
500GB SSD 2.4GB/s raw

I still hope lockart fails (if its real) don't like the precedent it sets

 

[MilkyJoe]

Go ask the professionals. I can't believe your trying to say tht Microsofts ssd implementation is better

I can't believe people think it'll matter.

 

[Gamernyc78]

I can't believe people think it'll matter.

An extra blade of grass matter to ppl lol soooo yeah lol

 

[Rusco Da Vino]

on the other side you have got people who claim that ssd can close the tflop gap...what I am saying that both sides present a lot of wishfu, not based on facts, thinking

I didnt read any serious source claiming that the PS5 SSD can close the tf gap.

What I have read is that is it the high GPU clock and untra customised I/O unit what will boost the PS5 performance, making it as good console as the Series X is or even better.

Is that true? We will see, but please do not make me quote Jason Schereier or the CryTek dev again

PS: The only person who is truly neutral here in the thread is SonGoku . The guy is trying to understand how all this tech really works and I really enjoy read his comments. But this is just a personal opinion.

 

[rnlval]

That diagram is wrong, even the user that created it admits he's hoping MS cames up with a never before seen solution to access the 4 idle chips while CPU is accessing data
Dual straw system its just his hopes and dreams

I created it. I have the original .odg file. You're wrong.

I created the above .odg diagram with RDNA's 64-bit memory controllers attached to duel-linked GDDR6 chips


Four 16bit memory channels are attached to one RDNA's 64 bit memory channel.

 

[MarkMe2525]

I cannot disagree with this... however according to the supposed layout this access does NOT go through the system PCIE but is an on-die connection to the GPU. We dont have the SSD to GPU specification yet as to how this is done. Time will reveal.

The solution was different but only required 1.5 to 2GBps read speeds. This really does just seem like the next step to lower the cost of said solution. Just use the SSD and not have to attach the memory directly to the die.

 

[MilkyJoe]

An extra blade of grass matter to ppl lol soooo yeah lol

This post is console wars in one sentence. Well played that man.

 

[scie]

Is there really room for Lockhart? Seriously asking.

Even if there were easy ways to upscale quality between Lockhart and XsX, there is bound to be a ton of people touting how Lockhart is holding XsX back from its full potential. I just feel like that would kind of shift the focus point to shipping the cheaper box in bulk, leaving the XsX to be the "high-end" niche product - which would be a damn shame. Obv we don't know the costs of any of these boxes yet so...

Well it depends on pricing and of what "it can deliver". But if the rumored 4TF+ will be true that it can´t be just 100-150 bucks cheaper. It has to be more otherwise there won´t be any need.

Price is crucial to every console, especially during these times when maybe the world will hit a recession in a lot of countries.

 

[Trueblakjedi]

I created it. I have the original .odg file. You're wrong.

I created the above diagram with RDNA's 64-bit memory controllers attached to double-linked GDDR6 chips .

Can you walk us through how the accesses do NOT hinder access to the underlying chip resource? Are you saying that the CPU and GPU can each access one or both of the 16bit lanes at any time? If so, whatever they are drinking reduces from the overall bandwidth to that resource? How does the access differ between the 1gb chips and the 2gb chips?

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Is there really room for Lockhart? Seriously asking.

Even if there were easy ways to upscale quality between Lockhart and XsX, there is bound to be a ton of people touting how Lockhart is holding XsX back from its full potential. I just feel like that would kind of shift the focus point to shipping the cheaper box in bulk, leaving the XsX to be the "high-end" niche product - which would be a damn shame. Obv we don't know the costs of any of these boxes yet so...

Microsoft will never announce Lockhart, it's most likely cancelled. They know that Sony is so stubborn and ruthless and can place PS5 at $400 causing the Lockhart at $350-300 and XSX at $500 to look meaningless. If Sony comes with PS5 being $500 then Lockhart will have a very strong ground to stand on.

Either way, PS5 will sell more than XSX even if XSX is sold at $300 and PS5 at $500, it's just Sony will aim to crush the competition like any smart corporate to have a better negotiation leverage for more exclusives than ever.

 

[Darius87]

Here you go:

"Many years old" and "not updated" is the same thing, so please dont suggest windows central is lying.

maybe to you it's the same but in reality is not.
what he saying is that there was previous versions of dx and windows it has nothing to do with updates.
stop misinterpreting words.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

I’m still intrigued by the number of priority levels mentioned. Anything more than two levels (high, low) hasn’t really been viable - without using a ring-bus - because a bridged type bus at saturation is so preoccupied with binary-back-off collisions for accessing the bus that providing any sort of isochronous throughput is too difficult at high load. I will be surprised if the PS5 doesn’t have at least one ring bus to accommodate those 6 levels of priority under heavy load.

I always enjoy your posts, although I don't end up comprehending them totally.

 

[SonGoku]

ferwer chips—>lower speed

They can cut costs with lower density chips while still maintaining the same amount of chips

PS5 and XSX offer the same amount of physical GDDR6 memory but PS5 manages it over just eight chips, which is an advantage in this type of setup when it comes to physical memory per TF and module bandwidth per physical GB (the second one moreso with XSX's slower pool being the point of focus).

Yes but 448GB/s was likely not enough to feed the XSX GPU in their tests so they went with this setup
Also something interesting ree users mentioned how both Sony & MS came about to the same amount of GB/s per TF, was likely a performance sweet spot where extra bandwidth didn't justify costs

I’m still intrigued by the number of priority levels mentioned. Anything more than two levels (high, low) hasn’t really been viable - without using a ring-bus - because a bridged type bus at saturation is so preoccupied with binary-back-off collisions for accessing the bus that providing any sort of isochronous throughput is too difficult at high load. I will be surprised if the PS5 doesn’t have at least one ring bus to accommodate those 6 levels of priority under heavy load.

Most of the I/O stuff and memory controller hasn't been done before, there wasn't a need to guarantee such high throughput until now, all the hw in place to take full advantage of the SSD raw speed consistently
If you look at the patent it explains how it was designed around game usage to max reads

I created it. I have the original .odg file. You're wrong.

I created the above .odg diagram with RDNA's 64-bit memory controllers attached to duel-linked GDDR6 chips .

Im talking about the double straw system, its from drkeo twitter and its not how it works in practice

 

[3liteDragon]

This is starting to sound insane, touch screen add-on, stylus for the DualSense touchpad to use with the create button... If half of the stuff this guy’s saying is true, we haven’t seen shit yet.

Apparently, you can feel temperatures through the haptic feedback actuators inside the controller grips.

 

[01011001]

Apparently, you can feel temperatures through the haptic feedback actuators inside the controller grips.

yes, it also turns into a car! that Sony Electric car... yeah, that was actually the DualSense controller in car mode

 

[FranXico]

This is starting to sound insane, touch screen add-on, stylus for the DualSense touchpad to use with the create button... If half of the stuff this guy’s saying is true, we haven’t seen shit yet.

Apparently, you can feel temperatures through the haptic feedback actuators inside the controller grips.

I have no recollection of HipHopGamer ever actually getting any leak/info right. He is a very friendly fellow though.

 

[CrysisFreak]

My experience here in Europe is people are insanely hyped for PS5. To an absurd degree, even more hyped than for PS4 and that hype was real as shit.

This is starting to sound insane, touch screen add-on, stylus for the DualSense touchpad to use with the create button... If half of the stuff this guy’s saying is true, we haven’t seen shit yet.

Apparently, you can feel temperatures through the haptic feedback actuators inside the controller grips.

First HipHopGamer vid I'm watching and I'm laughing my ass off. Haha what a guy lmao

 

[rnlval]

Can you walk us through how the accesses do NOT hinder access to the underlying chip resource? Are you saying that the CPU and GPU can each access one or both of the 16bit lanes at any time? If so, whatever they are drinking reduces from the overall bandwidth to that resource? How does the access differ between the 1gb chips and the 2gb chips?

For NAVI 10 XT, one 64bit channel per GPU quadrant with many small wavefront threads running at the same time. NAVI 10 XT is like two NAVI 14 glued together.

16-way 4 MB cache L2 cache is used as a crossbar.

I'm still working out XSX's five 64 memory channels layout from XSX's cgi die shot.

Waiting for Hot Chips 2020 lecture.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

I think the idea of this plus SFS... is pretty revolutionary. You have access to 10GB plus 100GB but still only pull exactly what you need within the fustrum of the players view. I think both Sony and MS made the right calls in ensuring that their solutions are efficient. Now the question is how effective are they.

The game I'm most interested in this year is Flight Simulator 2020. This solution is exactly the right kind of solution to enable highly detailed texture and LOD for their air maps.

Flight Simulator 2020 is an insane looking game, but it's a streaming game from servers. It's more than 2 Petabyte (2,000+ Terabyte) game. I just wish we could use Garmin maps streaming natural imagery directly from satellites in a similar fashion not from regular internet, I think it'll happen.

 

[rnlval]

They can cut costs with lower density chips while still maintaining the same amount of chips

Yes but 448GB/s was likely not enough to feed the XSX GPU in their tests so they went with this setup
Also something interesting ree users mentioned how both Sony & MS came about to the same amount of GB/s per TF, was likely a performance sweet spot where extra bandwidth didn't justify costs

Most of the I/O stuff and memory controller hasn't been done before, there wasn't a need to guarantee such high throughput until now, all the hw in place to take full advantage of the SSD raw speed consistently
If you look at the patent it explains how it was designed around game usage to max reads

Im talking about the double straw system, its from drkeo twitter and its not how it works in practice

The double straws idea is a generic GDDR6's duel 16bit channels spec which follows HBM, not GDDR5.

Each atomic memory request has its address target. RDNA 64 bit controller handles four memory requests. To exploit the memory bandwidth, GPU must run many wavefront threads. Many wavefront threads' memory addresses targets can diverge from each other.

If a data collection is located in 6 GB address space, then 336GB/s limit applies since many wavefronts would be looking at that direction. Standard FIFO rule applies at the moment.

 

[Trueblakjedi]

If anything, Sony's implementation seems far closer to realising the dream of SSG than XSX's implementation. Sony's SSD solution even seems to go far beyond what SSG does.

Radeon SSG basically involves being able to load larger data-sets, far quicker than what is capable through normal storage on a PC. Consoles are completely different and based upon HSA and doesn't have the same type of constraints as a PC.

Therefore, neither console is SSG, as SSG is a technology to mitigate the problems along the IO pipeline specific to PCs.

However, both next-gen consoles are trying to do something similar to SSG in that they are expanding the available RAM pool available to the GPU and obviously refinining their APIs to customise it more specifically for the purposes of gaming.

There isn't any secret sauce going on, but PS5's solution (based on currently available information), seems far better, faster, more robust and more tightly integrated and considered than XSX's one. Of course though, the proof will be in the pudding.

Somehow Im not connecting with how you come to that conclusion. there seem to be some broad jumps.

I would like to understand how Sony's solution is similar to SSG,.

 

[GetSchwifty]

Somehow Im not connecting with how you come to that conclusion. there seem to be some broad jumps.

I would like to understand how Sony's solution is similar to SSG,.

I'm saying neither are SSG because SSG is for PC-based workstations... but the basic concept of extending the VRAM through SSD, both next-gen system are doing this; and due to the customizations and speed, PS5's solution seems a lot better than Xbox's.

I've read that MS were originally intending to include a normal HDD in XSX and then they went to a 1.4 - 1.8 GB/s SSD, before finally deciding to settle on what they have now based on catching wind of how much attention Sony was putting into their SSD.

Basically, having followed the rumors and progression of leaks of XSX, the image forms of XSX's SSD not being as integral to the design of their system as PS5.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

This post is console wars in one sentence. Well played that man.

Let's make it simple:

More SSD speed = more detailed assets and graphics in a specific field of view = faster shifting to another angle (loading new stuff + offloading older stuff faster) = less stress on CPU/GPU and maximizing efficiency = 4K and high fps with no compromises.

XSX can compensate with more TF, but the ram is still problematic, plus if they wanna catch up with the deep 3D audio then they need to spare more room in the CPU/GPU that their extra chip just can't handle.

Verdict: Most/all 3rd party devs will make multiplats look the same with same FPS, and some taking advantage of the superior sound quality in the PS5 like DICE: (timestamped)

 

[SonGoku]

Either way, PS5 will sell more than XSX even if XSX is sold at $300 and PS5 at $500, it's just Sony will aim to crush the competition like any smart corporate to have a better negotiation leverage for more exclusives than ever.

The PS2 days of 3rd party exclusives are long gone imo, the benefits of being a market leader is in the game sales (digital and physical), subscription services and leverage for marketing deals and timed content exclusives

More money means they can dedicate more resources to 1st party games as well and the occasional studio acquisition

 

[pawel86ck]

maybe to you it's the same but in reality is not.
what he saying is that there was previous versions of dx and windows it has nothing to do with updates.
stop misinterpreting words.

I'm not buying your interpretation.

 

[Grodiak]

Microsoft will never announce Lockhart, it's most likely cancelled. They know that Sony is so stubborn and ruthless and can place PS5 at $400 causing the Lockhart at $350-300 and XSX at $500 to look meaningless. If Sony comes with PS5 being $500 then Lockhart will have a very strong ground to stand on.

Yeah - though it's tough for companies to make solid decisions based on assumed price-points since we'll most likely be in this Mexican stand-off regarding pricing for a while still. Also since the X is already relatively powerful, kind of questionable how big of a difference would be between the two - as in how much "next gen" goodies would need to be stripped from Lockhart to keep the price down? That obv would make game optimization even harder! So, yeah... seems like a hard product to have.

One thing is for sure, though. If it IS canceled - Xbox will be having quite a limited... SERIES on their hands for the time being

 

[jackets with pockets]

I'm guessing the promised teardown video will be published on April 28th.

 

[SonGoku]

The double straws idea is a generic GDDR6's duel 16bit channels spec which follows HBM, not GDDR5.

Each atomic memory request has its address target. RDNA 64 bit controller handles four memory requests. To exploit the memory bandwidth, GPU must run many wavefront threads. Many wavefront threads' memory addresses targets can diverge from each other.

If a data collection is located in 6 GB address space, then 336GB/s limit applies.

Data is spread across all chips evenly, for GPU to access data from the 16bit half it would limit bandwidth to 280GB/s and CPU to 168GB/s
This is an undesirable outcome

edit: and the net results the same 160GB used 80GB gained= 80GB/s used for average CPU access of 48GB/s

 

[thelastword]

Material on the anlalogs for DualSense looks better, slightly larger space for your thumb and contours around the base of the analog chute offers a sealed ring of protection and a form of control, which means less broken analog sticks.....All in all, it looks like the quality aspect of PS5 and it's peripheals seems to have gone several notches up in build and quality from last gen....That BOM should be something allright...

 

[Okami Haundo]

I'm guessing the promised teardown video will be published on April 28th.

Why's that?

 

[Airbus Jr]

84k pages about people constantly talking about PS5 and Xbox

Im gona start from page one

* insert Astronomia music coffin party *

 

[GetSchwifty]

I'm guessing the promised teardown video will be published on April 28th.

Road to PS5: Mar 18th
DS5: April 7th

That's a 20-day gap. Is that how you came up with April 28th?

 

[M.Night Shyamalan]

I have no recollection of HipHopGamer ever actually getting any leak/info right. He is a very friendly fellow though.

I am still waiting on his highest viewed Youtube video to date rumor on the "Remastering Engine" for PS1-PS3 BC... if we have a conference from Sony and that rumor is 100% not true, he is 100% disingenuous about everything he says.
I give him the benifit of the doubt for now... only because that Cerny talk had extra space on the slide for other BC platforms that made no sense to be there...

 

[Trueblakjedi]

I'm saying neither are SSG because SSG is for PC-based workstations... but the basic concept of extending the VRAM through SSD, both next-gen system are doing this; and due to the customizations and speed, PS5's solution seems a lot better than Xbox's.

I've read that MS were originally intending to include a normal HDD in XSX and then they went to a 1.4 - 1.8 GB/s SSD, before finally deciding to settle on what they have now based on catching wind of how much attention Sony was putting into their SSD.

Basically, having followed the rumors and progression of leaks of XSX, the image forms of XSX's SSD not being as integral to the design of their system as PS5.

I'm looking for that info in bold. I'm also looking for the PS5 having access to anything in 100Gb worth of SSD as a Virtual Ram pool sitting behind Video Ram but before it has to stream from the SSD. Point it out for me so that I can read up on it.

As to your referenced rumors. *shrug* I have always heard that both consoles were using SSD and that Sony's SSD would be faster so I would not take those rumors to heart. Certainly not the HDD rumor. That was never within the series x roadmap.

Being excited about a platform's architecture doesn't objectively make it better. I think the PS5 architecture is fantastic really. It takes lower end parts and bolsters them with frankly terrific custom silicon. I still dont think that it matches the XSX in capability at a processing or I/O level. And that's looking at it from individual components to a unified system view. Everything in both systems is accelerated but even a maxed out, fully accelerated PS5, doesn't match the base XSX spec.

That opinion is based on the objective published numbers.

 

[Darius87]

I can't believe people think it'll matter.

it will matter more then 2 flipy flops that's why it's most requested part from devs, try to make sense another time posting something.

 

[jackets with pockets]

That's a 20-day gap. Is that how you came up with April 28th?

Yeah. Three-week intervals.

 

[GetSchwifty]

I'm looking for that info in bold. I'm also looking for the PS5 having access to anything in 100Gb worth of SSD as a Virtual Ram pool sitting behind Video Ram but before it has to stream from the SSD. Point it out for me so that I can read up on it.

As to your referenced rumors. *shrug* I have always heard that both consoles were using SSD and that Sony's SSD would be faster so I would not take those rumors to heart. Certainly not the HDD rumor. That was never within the series x roadmap.

Being excited about a platform's architecture doesn't objectively make it better. I think the PS5 architecture is fantastic really. It takes lower end parts and bolsters them with frankly terrific custom silicon. I still dont think that it matches the XSX in capability at a processing or I/O level. And that's looking at it from individual components to a unified system view. Everything in both systems is accelerated but even a maxed out, fully accelerated PS5, doesn't match the base XSX spec.

That opinion is based on the objective published numbers.

"lower end parts" - lol

Believe whatever you want pal.

You're close to the only person I've seen trying to seriously argue that XSX's IO system is better than PS5's.

I won't argue with you, because I don't argue with salmon.

 

[SonGoku]

, but it's a streaming game from servers. It's a 1 Petabyte (1,000 Terabyte) game.

wow that sounds insane got a link?

 

[bitbydeath]

The power of 8K.

 

[Lunatic_Gamer]

“I think what you saw [with the PS5 reveal] was the unfortunate by-product of a GDC talk being turned into a marketing event. I loved Sony’s talk, I think they’ve got some cool tech. I personally think we have a better console, we’re not worried about the power narrative.”

Microsoft Exec: “We have a better console; we’re not worried about power” - ThisGenGaming

We now know about the raw specs of both upcoming next generation consoles and on paper Microsoft seems to have the PlayStation console beat. However, rumblings have permeated through the internet that efficiency, development ease and a faster SSD might make the raw spec gap negligible. That was...

thisgengaming.com

Damn! It seems Crytek’s developer comments really rubbed some Microsoft folks the wrong way. Some developers can behave like the worst fanboys at times.

 

[Trueblakjedi]

"lower end parts" - lol

Believe whatever you want pal.

You're close to the only person I've seen trying to seriously argue that XSX's IO system is better than PS5's.

I won't argue with you, because I don't argue with salmon.

The CPU and GPU are lower specced than the XSX correct? Why be offended by that unless the idea of your favorite console company winning is the reason you post. Ths Ps5 SSD is faster but the XSX still has its own capabilities including memory bandwidth and CU horsepower as well. You just dismiss all of that? OK.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

wow that sounds insane got a link?

Actually over 2 Petabytes (+2,000 TB):

Flight Simulator positions a single component at the heart of its latest refresh – the cloud. It's the foundation of the modern Microsoft from consumer to enterprise, as the title sets out to inject a ton of data in its portfolio of supporting Azure services. The long-overdue revival of Microsoft's longest-running franchise emerges as a rich culmination of geographical data, with over two petabytes flowing through its systems. It's a vast experience far exceeding storage of the average PC, enlisting help from the cloud infrastructure to serve up the globe.

Microsoft Flight Simulator returns as a mind-blowing next-generation cloud showcase

Microsoft Flight Simulator looks to disrupt the genre with cloud-backed gameplay on a global scale.

www.windowscentral.com

 

[Bo_Hazem]

yes, it also turns into a car! that Sony Electric car... yeah, that was actually the DualSense controller in car mode

 

[Lunatic_Gamer]

 

[Disco_]

Im not even worried about adding extra storage yet because of Gig internet and how fast the SSD solutions are.

Gig internet isn't even fast enough to max out a regular mechanical HDD. 1Gig=125MB/s without overhead and other things.

Go ask the professionals. I can't believe your trying to say tht Microsofts ssd implementation is better

And a new narrative is born.
Guys, discord is winning the war.

 

[Snake29]

The CPU and GPU are lower specced than the XSX correct? Why be offended by that unless the idea of your favorite console company winning is the reason you post. Ths Ps5 SSD is faster but the XSX still has its own capabilities including memory bandwidth and CU horsepower as well. You just dismiss all of that? OK.

"Lower" specced, doesn't mean "lower end parts".....

 

[pawel86ck]

it will matter more then 2 flipy flops that's why it's most requested part from devs, try to make sense another time posting something.

You wanted to say "than"?

 

[dEvAnGeL]

Without reading the thread the last couple of weeks, why is it still open if we already know the specs?

 

[pasterpl]

Without reading the thread the last couple of weeks, why is it still open if we already know the specs?

now we need time to understand them

 

[CrysisFreak]

now we need time to understand them

More like now we insist on misinterpreting them.