DrKeo
Member
Well, a native PS5 game will also have to load much higher quality assets. On the other hand, when you know you are building a game around an SSD, you will probably load things differently than on a slow spinning drive.
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Neo Blaster
Member
But that's exactly the point, you don't see people paying less than $60 for day and date titles, it takes some time after launch, which depends on game success: if it goes well, price will take longer to lower. Gamepass subscribers are paying 10 or less a month for old AND day and date titles.
Yep, you just have to wait 1-2 month and the price went down already 10-20%. Therefore I don´t preorder any games and a lot of my friends neither. The general perception from them is, just to wait 1 month and you can save a lot of money and if you buy digital games don´t buy them directly from Sony or Microsoft. You can save a lot of money just buying the codes elsewhere.
VanSiriusGabriel
Member
Yes, and if the SSD is 100x faster in practice I think we will still see far, far faster loadings no matter the game, because the SSD did a much bigger jump than GPU, CPU or RAM in PS5 did, imho.
Sure, but more specifically, I was talking about the load times here; not streaming. I'm sure they can travel fast and float the camera in some type of debug mode that was already present during development.
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Like I said we don’t have the numbers, but I do know there’s a significant portion of gamers that buy very few games per year, and almost never pay full price, or they buy used games. It could be more lucrative to have those people subscribed to Gamepass for the life of the machine.
All I’m saying is that with your comparisons you are choosing to compare the worst case scenario of a person spending $1 to play a day one game then canceling, with the best case scenario on the traditional sales side.
Microsoft has a lot of data and they are saying Gamepass has actually improved sales and engagement on the platform. A couple devs have said the same. There’s no reason to think they are lying.
Yeah, people save money on games in lots of ways. The day one Preorder crew is actually nowhere near the majority of gamers.
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Deleted member 775630
Unconfirmed Member
That's nothing compared to Cerny's cult following
DrKeo
Member
Yes, I agree. After using the same storage speed for the past 15 years, it’s about time. We are stepping back into the N64 power/storage ratio era which is exciting.
Thirty7ven
Banned
Cerny is an actual developer with hands on the actual thing, and he shows up once or twice per generation while the cult of Phil is 24/7 365 days a year. It’s just too much.
Peter Moore and Reggie, Kutaragi, yeah they were personalities too but they all had iconic moments. The tattoo, the kick ass and take names line etc There was humor behind it.
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Tripolygon
Banned
I was just pointing out that saying MLC does not necessarily mean its not TLC.
The demo running was not a retail disk, it was a developer build running on both consoles. The camera speed was likely just uncapped as you can see the speed was gradually ramped up for both until the PS4 Pro SSD could not keep up with loading any longer while the PS5 demo if you notice there were slight pauses that lasted for less than a second. The demo showed that the raw PS5 SSD can fill the RAM in less than a second making streaming almost seamless. I have no doubt that a PS4 retail game installed on PS5 will load that fast or close to it anyway. Killzone, Spiderman and Driveclub are already one of the fastest loading games on PS4, clocking in at around 10 seconds on average on a 50MB/s SATA hard drive. 5.5GB/s NVMe will reduce that to less than a second without any modification to the code.
Let me put this in another perspective.
Series X 2.4GB/s SSD loaded State of decay unmodified code in 9 seconds that loads in roughly 50 seconds on Xbox One X. And you're saying PS5 5.5GB/s SSD can't load Spiderman in less than a second that takes PS4 to load in 10 seconds.
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whoever81
Member
I bump, you bump, EVERYONE bumps.
ArcaneNLSC
Member
I'll just leave this gem here
DrKeo
Member
Yup, it could be anything with more than 1-bit.
Yes, I do find it hard to believe that Spider-man is loading 19x faster without changing anything. I mean, there are rare games that will see that huge bump, like Doom Eternal, so IMO Spider-man was either fitted to the PS5 or is just an engine that scales extremely well with an SSD and a powerful CPU.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Wait. What is this?Ryan "They're worth a trillion dollars" McCaffrey's deleted DualSense Tweet.
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Deleted member 775630
Unconfirmed Member
We'll agree to disagree. I see it completely different so we're not going to agree anytime soon.
ArcaneNLSC
Member
A late night random video I clicked on thinking it was going to be a serious article about Mark Cerny but low key had me like this while listening
Yeah! I don't get the mystique of Phill at all. To my knowledge he's just been empty promises and "... Wait for it...".
It's like waiting for someone who owes you money to start paying back. You're desperate to see some or any return on the money you leant out, that you're playing nice and tolerating their b.s. to try to recoup your loss.
Captain Hero
The Spoiler Soldier
Ryan "They're worth a trillion dollars" McCaffrey's deleted DualSense Tweet.
This guy is a joke ( . )
Aceofspades
Banned
Teraflops is a legit way to measure theoretical performance of a GPU especially among cards of the same architecture. Its as important now as it was 10 years ago. People now is not discrediting the TF measurement itself, they are discrediting how minimal the difference between PS5 and Xbox actually is. 18% really small especially when we have games pushing 4K these days.
I understand bringing TF if we had Xbox pushing double that of PS5, but that simply is not the case. This gen we had 40% GPU power with almost 300% Ram BW to PS4. Next gen its only 18% GPU to X and 30% Ram BW. And remember last gen PS4 and Xbox One were called TWINS!!
We still have lots of unknowns like the performance of RT and Audio chips inside the consoles but generally the expectations are PS5 will have more capable Audio Engine. Series X might have better RT due to more CU units (although we still don't know how PS5 high clocks can affect RT)
Next gen we witness the consoles move from traditional HDD which bogged down the medium for so long to a blazing fast SSDs and here we have a clear advantage for PS5, which explains the overwhelmingly positive response from devs to PS5 design. A seriously fast SSD at 5.5GB/s a whooping 130% increase over Series X drive (which is already fast)
Looking at all these point, we see that specs wise PS5 and Series X is two capable beasts and really close in power like never we have seen before.
I understand bringing TF if we had Xbox pushing double that of PS5, but that simply is not the case. This gen we had 40% GPU power with almost 300% Ram BW to PS4. Next gen its only 18% GPU to X and 30% Ram BW. And remember last gen PS4 and Xbox One were called TWINS!!
We still have lots of unknowns like the performance of RT and Audio chips inside the consoles but generally the expectations are PS5 will have more capable Audio Engine. Series X might have better RT due to more CU units (although we still don't know how PS5 high clocks can affect RT)
Next gen we witness the consoles move from traditional HDD which bogged down the medium for so long to a blazing fast SSDs and here we have a clear advantage for PS5, which explains the overwhelmingly positive response from devs to PS5 design. A seriously fast SSD at 5.5GB/s a whooping 130% increase over Series X drive (which is already fast)
Looking at all these point, we see that specs wise PS5 and Series X is two capable beasts and really close in power like never we have seen before.
Games Dean
Member
FeiRR
Banned
I say it's not a great deal, for me. I explained it a few pages ago but I'll reiterate. GP has a rotation. For someone who doesn't have unlimited time to play games, it means most major titles (which require many hours to finish) won't work because they get rotated before I can finish them. It works for small games but I'm not that much into indies anymore. I like AAA games with quality execution, engaging story and all that. I prefer to choose a game, pay for it and play it at my own pace. GP doesn't have much appeal for me. I also want to support my favourite developers by buying their games, even if I put them at the shelf and play in a year or more. I guess rentals work well for casuals but not for everyone.
Of course it does. Do you think MS execs will be happy if they win the console war in the US but lose everywhere else? I know it's a significant market but in comparison to the rest of the world, not so much. Also: why there's such a dependance? Apple sells their shit everywhere.
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Metroiddarks
Member
If you work as game journalist please at least try to be impartial, is almost impossible to be butRyan "They're worth a trillion dollars" McCaffrey's deleted DualSense Tweet.
you should at least try to do it and you know what is worst of this kind of guys they do this for free.
Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
DirectML super resolution and DLSS have to be some of the most exciting things at the moment, imagine what games could look if they were 1080p native but 4k using these technologies.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
FeiRR
Banned
You're forgetting that most people are paying a lot more than $60 for a game. That is almost everywhere outside the US.
Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
Hes always worked on the xbox side though.
Its like saying this about Greg miller.
Neo Blaster
Member
Cerny is not a PR suit like Phil, Larry and Aaron. During this generation, we heard from him at the beginning for those technical briefings, then other Sony representatives took over, like Tretton, House, Boyes, Yoshida and Layden. At most, we had very interesting technical interviews and presentations like 'Road to PS4' after launch. And just to make it clear, Cerny isn't even a Sony employee.
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Obviously economics are different in different countries. My only point was the majority of people are not paying full price for games day one. There’s lots of bundles, deals, and used games being sold.
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Tripolygon
Banned
The difference is you would hardly find hot takes like that from Greg about Microsoft. This is why i dislike the "but both sides" argument.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
As much as I can’t stand Greg, this is correct.
T
Three Jackdaws
Unconfirmed Member
Cerny has actually earned the respect of the Playstation gaming community, a large amount of the PS4’s success was thanks to him. He’s also a gaming developer so comes off as genuine and real and a “friend” to the developer and gaming communities rather than a sleezy businessman trying to sell us on a product.
Gamernyc78
Banned
You can see through Phil lol he's cringe worthy and very frat boy turned later used salesman PR. I dont believe any of his try hard, trying to hard messaging. Most of which is coming from others he's just the PR mouth piece.
If anything thyve been trying hard to mimic Sony's blueprint from "our games like Gears will be more open [like Uncharted and GOW]" to" we are giving devs freedom to create their vision" to "we are pushing streaming" all of which was messaging Sony pushed years ago and during PS4 era.
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joe_zazen
Member
yeah, idk. Disney+ has 50 million, and that is fucking Disney and it is available on like 4 billion devices. I think you under estimate how hard it is to get people to sign up to this stuff.
FeiRR
Banned
So they are or they aren't?
It's also available in just a dozen of countries. You armchair analysts should really do some research before you start throwing your "opinions" online.
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
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Are not, typo. My bad
FeiRR
Banned
Okay, no problem. How do you know that most people buy games off RRP?
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Tripolygon
Banned
I would not characterize Phil Spencer as sleazy. The thing is that everyone is trying to sell you something one way or another. I find our biases inform how we perceive the sales pitch. Cerny did not say a PS4 teraflop is not the same as PS5 teraflop by random, he is trying to sell the fact that though the number might not be a massive jump like previous generations, it does not mean the effective performance is not big which is true but it is still a sales pitch.
That's not to say some companies do not obfuscate and mislead in order to sell you something. Like the power of the cloud last gen. And in the PS3 and 360 gen where Microsoft and Sony straight lied about the capability of their GPU.
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Tripolygon
Banned
My laptop approves. LolOk how is this one?
Gediminas
Banned
he is just snake oil salesman who's face asking a brick everytime i see him. he has 0 honesty.
joe_zazen
Member
fair dues.
FranXico
Member
Look, I can appreciate the view that the "we give devs freedom" talk is a reactionary company PR line, but don't hold it personally against Spencer. It's his job.
DaGwaphics
Member
It's a little different in the console space. Didn't MS have 50m+ Gold subscribers during the peak of the 360 era?
Also, everyone and their brother has a streaming video service going, with gaming a GP like service can really only be pulled off by Nintendo, Sony, or MS. A lot less competition. We'll see how it goes.
Gamernyc78
Banned
Tht too. Trust me there's some Sony execs tht are gringe worthy too. What I will give Xbox credit for and thy kept their word was acquiring more studios to expand their portfolio. The quality however of those games we don't know and will be interesting to see.
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D
Deleted member 775630
Unconfirmed Member
What does it matter how much Cerny was in the picture? That's not his role. It was about the cult following that in case of Cerny is almost at Steve Jobs level. He can do nothing wrong, I've seen people calling him a god on here... I'm not saying Spencer doesn't have this, he has. That's typical human beings that try to connect a face to a brand, and since they love the brand they are going to love the face. My point was mostly that this goes for both brands there are faces that people just hype up too much, and that it's definitely not only Spencer that has this.
Bonsaibäumchen
Member
Still the difference is a tech guy who actually designs the goddamn machine and is a fucking nerd. The other one is a salesman.
I can connect to the first one and hate the second one. I'd pay Cerny therefore more credibilty. Especially considering how hes a 'freelancer' who doesn't have to sell anything.
Don't get me wrong I've seen distasteful and cringeworthy stuff/people on both sides.
But if I have to compare those 2 I know who i'd root for.
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VanSiriusGabriel
Member
I have no idea why GP can't go to 10 to 20 millions, but MS needs:
A: to sell at least double the consoles, good luck.
B: bring the value of the service far higher, good luck also.
Or a combination of the two.
Despite this, GP didn't boost Xbox sells nor boosted software revenues from it, in fact they continued to drop(as far as I know), which should be indicative of how much losses and income the GP can grant, even if it may not be reliable.
Problem is, long term effects are unknown. GP is sustainable because MS needs to, if somehow MS crush Sony like with PS3 I don't expect them to further go suicide mode.
Also, they would start again with user base due to SeX, and that's probably why they want to keep One as long as possible, because with that they keep GP subscriptions.
If my theory is correct, GP already "forced" Microsoft to limit its native next gen output.
But in general I hope it doesn't become a standard service for videogames, because as long as the lesser party use it that's fine, what if Sony and Nintendo got their versions with the same approach? Do you see all that third and first parties for 5 dollars\month for all platforms? I don't find it realistic.
I think is difficult to talk about GP because I see it as a very unstable service, similar to a bubble ready to explode if ever it gets big enough. I suppose it needs just a very narrow sweet spot to work without messing things up.
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