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[THE:MILKMAN]

PowAh PoWAh PowAh SloWeR SloWeR

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PapEr SpEcs PaPeR SpEcS PaPer SpEcS

EFFECTIVE REAL WORLD PERFORMANCE

Hand me the nail gun this is getting maddening.

We must know what the numbers mean..!!!

 

[Agnostic2020]

Today is a random tuesday. Lets see if jimbo is gonna give us something . He loves Tuesdays

 

[ZywyPL]

Lockhart has been revealed

Thank Me Later

Nice design, really nice, that's much better looking than XBX. Unfortunately given the internals design/size, it's not doable at all.

 

[Thirty7ven]

That’s a white GameCube.

 

[xacto]

That’s a white GameCube.

For non-tech people out there, you might have the odd guest who will try to use it as an ashtray if you have that on a table.

 

[Clintizzle]

Heh

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

I see RAD game tools updated their portfolio of middleware today:

Miles sound system: [Runtime] Added RAD NDA platform 'mustard', contact sales for more information.

Oodle: new: initial Mustard release version

Telemetry: Added support for a secret platform

Granny: Added new next generation platform - contact Mitch for details.

Is 'Mustard' the software for PS5 compression or something else?

Miles Sound System Development History

RAD Game Tools' web page. RAD makes Bink Video, the Telemetry Performance Visualization System, and Oodle Data Compression - all popular video game middleware.

www.radgametools.com

 

[MasterCornholio]

Heh

What delays will do.

 

[LED Guy?]

The idea of Xbox Lockhart really sucks, it would just make it the more console that is going to be selling out rather than Xbox Series X, which would make developers focus on that weak 4 TF console, it would dumb down some games in some shape or form.

It sucks!

 

[John254]

I know that Corden and co. are not welcomed here, but since Windows Central has been spot on terms of Xbox Series X specs, i think i trust them with Lockhart too

Xbox rumor roundup: 'Xbox Series S' Lockhart, new Xbox headset, May event, and more

There are a lot of rumors swirling about upcoming Xbox reveals. Here's what we know at our end.

www.windowscentral.com

 

[Agnostic2020]

Some next gen news/solid rumor :

Rumor : Xbox Lockhart Reveal soon: 4Tf, Limited next gen features

According to Nibbel who has a pretty solid track record its happening in may: So price is 299$ most probably. What next gen feature it won't have ? Probably hardware Raytracing due to weak gpu ?hopefully ssd is there as that would mess up baseline for next gen.

www.neogaf.com

 

[MasterCornholio]

I know that Corden and co. are not welcomed here, but since Windows Central has been spot on terms of Xbox Series X specs, i think i trust them with Lockhart too

Xbox rumor roundup: 'Xbox Series S' Lockhart, new Xbox headset, May event, and more

There are a lot of rumors swirling about upcoming Xbox reveals. Here's what we know at our end.

www.windowscentral.com

4TF?

I was hoping for those rumors of 6TF instead.

I know it's RDNA2 but 4TF seems really underpowered even when compared to the PS5.

 

[CrysisFreak]

Fuck Microsoft for releasing a 4TF console in 2020. Just fuck them.
Phil I hope you read this. I'll buy one to use it as an ashtray. Fuck it so much.
Literally vomit inducing, I can't even fathom such a weak ass GPU holding a back a generation. REEEEEEEEEEEEEE

 

[Nivek OnlyOn]

Ye

Fuck Microsoft for releasing a 4TF console in 2020. Just fuck them.
Phil I hope you read this. I'll buy one to use it as an ashtray. Fuck it so much.
Literally vomit inducing, I can't even fathom such a weak ass GPU holding a back a generation. REEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Its a cash grab.

 

[ResilientBanana]

Why are people so worried about a console having a weaker GPU?

 

[MasterCornholio]

Why are people so worried about a console having a weaker GPU?

It's vastly weaker though.

 

[ResilientBanana]

It's vastly weaker though.

So what? that will only change the way a game looks, not how it plays.

 

[MasterCornholio]

So what? that will only change the way a game looks, not how it plays.

Power can affect game design. For example if the Xbox Series S goes with 8GB some games might not be possible on it.

 

[DaGwaphics]

The idea of Xbox Lockhart really sucks, it would just make it the more console that is going to be selling out rather than Xbox Series X, which would make developers focus on that weak 4 TF console, it would dumb down some games in some shape of form.

It sucks!

The main issue with this tired and invalid argument, is that devs build from the top down. Especially in the case of Xbox, where everything will release on PC which will already be far superior by the time these systems launch. Devs won't even be starting at XSX, they will shoot past that. XSX and Lockhart (if such a thing exists) would get settings toned down to whatever level they need. The overall game design won't be an issue since there will be some level of parity between the systems in regards to the CPU and storage. Wide gaps in GPU performance can be bridged with changes in resolution and LOD settings.

 

[Vae_Victis]

I know that Corden and co. are not welcomed here, but since Windows Central has been spot on terms of Xbox Series X specs, i think i trust them with Lockhart too

Xbox rumor roundup: 'Xbox Series S' Lockhart, new Xbox headset, May event, and more

There are a lot of rumors swirling about upcoming Xbox reveals. Here's what we know at our end.

www.windowscentral.com

Does 4TF make sense in the scope of the next-gen market?

If it's basically the same console as XSX but with a worse GPU, how does that reflect on building cost? How much can they realistically shave off the RRP? $100? $150 max? Maybe they can go a bit cheaper on storage as well, selling it with a tiny SSD and relying mostly on memory expansion units?

Would it just be an XSX with a third of the CUs? Does that even make sense architecture- and optimization-wise?

 

[ResilientBanana]

Power can affect game design. For example if the Xbox Series S goes with 8GB some games might not be possible on it.

I don't know, I find it odd that most games on PC work perfectly fine on various specs, but for some reason this doesn't fly for Xbox.

 

[JLB]

We’ll have to see as that is the claims Mark Cerny has put forward.

i mean, you have to move data, thus it will take *some* time, but *less*, which is my point.

 

[MasterCornholio]

I don't know, I find it odd that most games on PC work perfectly fine on various specs, but for some reason this doesn't fly for Xbox.

I had to build a new gaming PC because my old one couldn't handle modern games. Minimum specifications are on the box for a reason.

 

[Agnostic2020]

I don't know, I find it odd that most games on PC work perfectly fine on various specs, but for some reason this doesn't fly for Xbox.

To be fair games on pc have tons of bugs and crashes often due to this reason but on 2 console (lockhart and xsx )that won't be problem as long as lockhart has same cpu and ssd

 

[Tetragrammaton_Knight]

The idea of Xbox Lockhart really sucks, it would just make it the more console that is going to be selling out rather than Xbox Series X, which would make developers focus on that weak 4 TF console, it would dumb down some games in some shape of form.

It sucks!

This has been covered many times before - there won't be any difference in graphics, features or gameplay between XBSS and XBSX. Lockhart will simply have target resolution of 1080p instead of 4K. That's it. No additional effort from developers to adapt games to XBSS, except changing the target resolution and only a bit more work for testers.
Also, although 4K has 4 times more pixels than 1080p, it requires about 3 times more GPU power to process on average (you can check the fps difference between 1080p and 4K in numerous game tests for PC). So 4Tf for XBSS, when XBSX has 12Tf makes perfect sense.

All in all, Lockhart does not suck, it is a game changer that will allow millions of people to enter next-gen for cheap as long as they are fine with 1080p resolution. And if it is actually released on holidays 2020, it will have the biggest impact on competition with PS5. Sony has nothing to counter Lockhart.

 

[pasterpl]

Just wondering why Cerny didn’t go with leviathan instead of kraken?

Leviathan provides high compression ratios while still achieving very fast decode speeds.

Leviathan is the higher compression sibling of Oodle Kraken.

 

[ResilientBanana]

I had to build a new gaming PC because my old one couldn't handle modern games. Minimum specifications are on the box for a reason.

Right, but a lot of games still work on lower spec'd hardware, let's not forget what's running on the Switch today. It's all about optimization.

 

[pasterpl]

All in all, Lockhart does not suck, it is a game changer that will allow millions of people to enter next-gen for cheap as long as they are fine with 1080p resolution.

and it will generate some sweet $$$ subscription money for MS that should translate to more, better games.

 

[FranXico]

Just wondering why Cerny didn’t go with leviathan instead of kraken?

Maybe Sony just made a decision balacing cost-benefit.

 

[MasterCornholio]

This has been covered many times before - there won't be any difference in graphics, features or gameplay between XBSS and XBSX. Lockhart will simply have target resolution of 1080p instead of 4K. That's it. No additional effort from developers to adapt games to XBSS, except changing the target resolution and only a bit more work for testers.
Also, although 4K has 4 times more pixels than 1080p, it requires about 3 times more GPU power to process on average (you can check the fps difference between 1080p and 4K in numerous game tests for PC). So 4Tf for XBSS, when XBSX has 12Tf makes perfect sense.

All in all, Lockhart does not suck, it is a game changer that will allow millions of people to enter next-gen for cheap as long as they are fine with 1080p resolution. And if it is actually released on holidays 2020, it will have the biggest impact on competition with PS5. Sony has nothing to counter Lockhart.

Maybe Sony doesn't need anything to counter Lockhart. It could be possible that the PS5 will still outsell both systems due to other factors.

 

[EviLore]

Just wondering why Cerny didn’t go with leviathan instead of kraken?

Based on those graphs, Kraken has a much faster decompression speed with a marginally worse compression ratio.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Just wondering why Cerny didn’t go with leviathan instead of kraken?

Complete guess on my part but could it be that a chip that could perform at Leviathan levels would use too much of the power budget?

Kraken might be the best compromise?

 

[Thirty7ven]

Maybe Sony doesn't need anything to counter Lockhart. It could be possible that the PS5 will still outsell both systems due to other factors.

Playstation is already positioned as the IPhone of consoles so Sony should absolutely keep going with that idea.

MS needs something like Lockhart, not the other way around. And again, it’s good news in my opinion.

I know enthusiasts are a bit hard headed, but this shit can’t be all about us.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Right, but a lot of games still work on lower spec'd hardware, let's not forget what's running on the Switch today. It's all about optimization.

I don't expect games like Horizon Zero Dawn 2 to work on the switch. Optimization can only do so much before new hardware is needed.

 

[Radical_3d]

Sony has nothing to counter Lockhart.

Haha! Oh you, Americans…

 

[BluRayHiDef]

What was the basis of the rumor that Sony would release two SKUs of the PlayStation 5 at launch: a base model and a "Pro" model?

 

[Aceofspades]

Just wondering why Cerny didn’t go with leviathan instead of kraken?

Oh..Xbox using Zlib ? Lets hope those BCPacks can mitigate such deficiencies

 

[MasterCornholio]

Just wondering why Cerny didn’t go with leviathan instead of kraken?

Holy crap at the difference in decompression speed between Zlib and Kraken.

 

[LED Guy?]

The main issue with this tired and invalid argument, is that devs build from the top down. Especially in the case of Xbox, where everything will release on PC which will already be far superior by the time these systems launch. Devs won't even be starting at XSX, they will shoot past that. XSX and Lockhart (if such a thing exists) would get settings toned down to whatever level they need. The overall game design won't be an issue since there will be some level of parity between the systems in regards to the CPU and storage. Wide gaps in GPU performance can be bridged with changes in resolution and LOD settings.

Nope, if Series S sold way more than Series X, then developers would start building their games around that spec, no doubt about it, this is just the way things work in the video games industry.

Xbox Series X would be just a brute force box rather than a box that developers 100% focus on.

 

[LED Guy?]

I know that Corden and co. are not welcomed here, but since Windows Central has been spot on terms of Xbox Series X specs, i think i trust them with Lockhart too

Xbox rumor roundup: 'Xbox Series S' Lockhart, new Xbox headset, May event, and more

There are a lot of rumors swirling about upcoming Xbox reveals. Here's what we know at our end.

www.windowscentral.com

You know? It’s just Microsoft dropping these so called “leaks”.....it’s not like they get those leaks from someone at Microsoft without Microsoft’s notice, but whatever, that’s why I assume these leaks are a 100% true, it’s like they’re coming from Microsoft, just like they did the leaks about the Xbox Series X.

 

[RookX22]

So developers wanted Kraken so thats why they are using Kraken. The whole argument about a lower spec system holding a game development back is legitimate in my eyes, it works that way with anything really I mean you take something high end and something low end and force people to make something that will work across both they will have to make compromises ( more time to develop, compromises on the features that you can incorporate etc) so that the product will work across the high end and low end instead of just focusing on the highest end.

 

[DaGwaphics]

Nope, if Series S sold way more than Series X, then developers would start building their games around that spec, no doubt about it, this is just the way things work in the video games industry.

Xbox Series X would be just a brute force box rather than a box that developers 100% focus on.

That's not the way it works. You can repeat as many times as you want, it doesn't change a thing. Every game on Xbox is built for PC whether it is first party or third party, those games are built top down. Superior GPUs will either already be on the market by the launch of the next-gen Xbox platform (or releasing very soon after). Devs will have those in mind. Sales of a less powerful part are irrelevant.

Mid-Low-end GPUs always sell the best, they are not the primary development focus of software (though steps are taken to ensure that most users can run software in an acceptable manner). I take it from your perspective, there could never be a point in purchasing more than a mid-range GPU?

 

[whoever81]

Haha! Oh you, Americans…

Right? (reading with roboting voice) : No Lockhart counter required bip bop bzz

Time for my monthly useless question: Will PS5 be revealed before we reach 2000 pages?

 

[Shmunter]

Just wondering why Cerny didn’t go with leviathan instead of kraken?

Look at the diagram in detail.

Using zlib as baseline, decompression is 25% speed of Kraken, yet 40% of leviathan. Kraken on balance is the better option.

 

[LED Guy?]

So developers wanted Kraken so thats why they are using Kraken. The whole argument about a lower spec system holding a game development back is legitimate in my eyes, it works that way with anything really I mean you take something high end and something low end and force people to make something that will work across both they will have to make compromises ( more time to develop, compromises on the features that you can incorporate etc) so that the product will work across the high end and low end instead of just focusing on the highest end.

Exactly, it really feels good to see someone agrees with me, I don’t know why some people don’t want to see the obvious, this shit will happen, I can guarantee y’all, because when you develop a game around that power, you are making the more powerful consoles (PS5 and Series X) just brute force through games rather than being developed around those consoles, this is just how it works, no one can deny that, if developers would focus on Series X 12 TF, you would see stuff happening like this generation where developers are focusing on PS4 and then Xbox One gets those same games just at a lower resolution because Xbox One is weaker than PS4 but nowhere the differences between Series X and Lockhart.

 

[LED Guy?]

That's not the way it works. You can repeat as many times as you want, it doesn't change a thing. Every game on Xbox is built for PC whether it is first party or third party, those games are built top down. Superior GPUs will either already be on the market by the launch of the next-gen Xbox platform (or releasing very soon after). Devs will have those in mind. Sales of a less powerful part are irrelevant.

Mid-Low-end GPUs always sell the best, they are not the primary development focus of software (though steps are taken to ensure that most users can run software in an acceptable manner). I take it from your perspective, there could never be a point in purchasing more than a mid-range GPU?

They are holding from top-down but are focusing on the most selling console which will be the Lockhart (in Xbox’s side of course), if some ambitions like high-end graphics wouldn’t run well on Lockhart then they’ll downgrade the baseline of the games solely because of the trash Xbox Lockhart, this is facts, you can do whatever you want but it won’t change facts, I just hope the PS5 DESTROYS both consoles in sales so that developers can forget developing for those consoles and just give them what the PS5 does just at their whatever settings.

These are facts that you have to accept them. Sorry.

 

[Shmunter]

Exactly, it really feels good to see someone agrees with me, I don’t know why some people don’t want to see the obvious, this shit will happen, I can guarantee y’all, because when you develop a game around that power, you are making the more powerful consoles (PS5 and Series X) just brute force through games rather than being developed around those consoles, this is just how it works, no one can deny that, if developers would focus on Series X 12 TF, you would see stuff happening like this generation where developers are focusing on PS4 and then Xbox One gets those same games just at a lower resolution because Xbox One is weaker than PS4 but nowhere the differences between Series X and Lockhart.

I got your back bro. Higher end system just becomes a free upscale instead of a bonafide target. Especially if the cheap system dominates sales.

 

[Tetragrammaton_Knight]

Maybe Sony doesn't need anything to counter Lockhart. It could be possible that the PS5 will still outsell both systems due to other factors.

Possible, but highly unlikely, especially considering the current economic downfall in the world. A lot of people will go for cheaper options. We'll see how it plays out in the end.

 

[DaGwaphics]

They are holding from top-down but are focusing on the most selling console which will be the Lockhart (in Xbox’s side of course), if some ambitions like high-end graphics wouldn’t run well on Lockhart then they’ll downgrade the baseline of the games solely because of the trash Xbox Lockhart, this is facts, you can do whatever you want but it won’t change facts, I just hope the PS5 DESTROYS both consoles in sales so that developers can forget developing for those consoles and just give them what the PS5 does just at their whatever settings.

These are facts that you have to accept them. Sorry.

I hope you make these posts in jest and not being serious. If the latter, there are resources online that can help you better understand the development process.

 

[ResilientBanana]

I don't expect games like Horizon Zero Dawn 2 to work on the switch. Optimization can only do so much before new hardware is needed.

Well no shit. But you could technically expect a game like HZD2 to work on a 4TF system without Ray-Tracing and various other graphical settings turned off.