cookiemuffin
Member
ha looks like that epic employee broke NDA
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Tim Sweeney on the Tech Demo: "Nanite and Lumen tech powering it will be fully supported on both PS5 and Xbox Series X and will be awesome on both."
- Thread starter ManaByte
- Start date
Self_Destructive
Member
Yeah. They took down that video quick after people started messaging Tim lmao
DoctaThompson
Banned
I got the video if anyone is interested.
SleepDoctor
Banned
Jon Neu
Banned
So it was literally a tech demo to showcase the SSD.
The tech demo that has the going slowly through a crack in the wall to help load the game moments
yurinka
Member
Maybe he meant that native render resolution was 1440p instead of 4K. 4K has 2.25x the pixelcount of 1440p, roughly 2X.
So if the engine scales whatever wants to render to the targeted resolution and framerate (in addition to the available RAM and horsepower in that device) using Geometry Engine, to target a smaller resolution would mean to reduce the vertex detail too, so the vertex detail would be reduced beyond the pixel count reduction.
So maybe around that 1.78x would make sense.
It was a demo to showcase their WIP next gen engine, which basically takes advantage of SSD and a big horsepower leap. And maybe now that they still don't have it complete/totally optimized they can't take full advantage of the horsepower but they already can take full advantage of the SDD speed. So maybe at this point for them it was a better choice to show the version with faster SSD.
Using this concept of streaming very fast stuff, mostly what you see in the screen and only a bit more to give it extra detail instead of also a huge chunk of the level that isn't seen in screen so wasting RAM/etc. with a specific amount of RAM, I think there are two key factors impacting on how cool the demo will look or how well it will perform: rendering horsepower and I/O streaming speed.
When comparing next gen systems, maybe other ones had more horsepower, but difference in SSD is way bigger. So here even in PS5 has less horsepower maybe they can take more advantage of it because they can stream more stuff/detail for every frame. Maybe in other systems with more horsepower but less SSD speed we may see slighly less detail (maybe small enough to be seen because we may be still talking sub-pixel stuff) but at a higher framerate. Or if they target 60fps in both, maybe a slightly higher native resolution. Specially now that may not be completely optimized.
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DoctaThompson
Banned
There was an hour and a half long video released earlier from Epic, China. Featured a laptop with 2080 max q, and Samsung 970, running ~40fps. Demo didn't need a super fast SSD, etc. Tim tried to deny it, then doubled down by saying consoles are under NDA, UE5 will be released next year, people could benchmark it, etc.
Jon Neu
Banned
Roxkis_ii
Member
What was the resolution thou?
DoctaThompson
Banned
Same. 1440p. Apparently the guy might be in hot water for this, as it would be breaking NDA.
Jon Neu
Banned
The greatest difference is going to be RT. XsX has double the CU’s and more processing power.
yurinka
Member
As I remember they said this demo doesn't use RT, and instead is focused on showcasng the streaming of insanely detailed stuff running with global illumination.
I assume they may do a separate demo to showcase RT running on UE5 in a later date.
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DoctaThompson
Banned
GI technically is a way of saying RT without saying RT, but epic was able to do this without hardware acceleration. Which is pretty impressive if they can get everything optimized in time for it's release.
Outside of gaming, I'm pretty sure movies are going to see a boost in fidelity in the next few years.
yurinka
Member
There are another ways of doing Global Illumination without using RT hardware/lots of RT rays, like using Voxel Cone Tracing. Something less precise than what it would be going full RT by hardware with tons of rays and bouncing, but still good looking realtime dynamic lighting.
They may be using something like that, because as I remember Epic specified that the demo wasn't using raytracing.
When interviewed by Geoff, the Epic guys said UE5 and this demo would also run on PC and Series X and that it would scale to each hardware and that would look similar to that.
Different hardware, and I assume targeted resolution or fps, should mean different level of detail. They also mentioned there that early next year they will release an early version of UE5 (with source code, as always), and will release a full UE5 version in late 2021. Until then it's WIP.
We should consider that this is the original asset size. They reduce it before loading it in the console. It would be interesting to know the compress ratio of Kraken compared to 7zip.
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ethomaz
Banned
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ethomaz
Banned
Yet said they use RT (software) in the Lunen for some tasks.
“Lumen uses ray tracing to solve indirect lighting, but not triangle ray tracing,”
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geordiemp
Member
Best explanation I have read so far and the translation does mention 1080p and mb/s and 2 traingle per pixel....
So everything can run the demo at different resolutions and levels of detail.
Yes the translation did talk about 1080, 2 traingles per pixel and MB/s scaling....
So UE5 engine scales just like Epic said, what we dont know is how that demo benchmarks to systems less than Ps5 capability.
longdi
Banned
Agnostic2020
Member
No in the actual translation he said he ran it at 1080p at 40 fps.
Also he said :
So engine will scale with weaker ssd which is given as ue5 is scalable engine
ethomaz
Banned
The video is public but not in english.what? has it been taken down?
I am like not surprised though.
The Epic guy says:
- He could run the opening scene in his notebook at 40fps (no resolution or level or detail talked)
- He said Lunen is more expensive in terms of performance than Nanite
- He says if you run at 1080p, 2 pixels per triangles, compressed Vortex you don’t need fast IO/SSD like PS5
Take in mind he never said which SSD he was using on his notebook.
He basically confirm what Tim said... the Engine scale the number of triangles for the bandwidth available in SSD.
Faster SSD = more triangles/details
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geordiemp
Member
what? has it been taken down?
I am like not surprised though.
Yes Laptop and 40FPS was mentioned for beginning part of demo in UE5 editor, but also 1080p at 2 triangles per pixel only needing MB/s and not high GB/s was also said and translated.
And yes, people picking the bits they like, what a suprise.
Exodia
Banned
Just in case anyone's interested in asset size, I created a 33 Million triangle random mesh and some 8k textures.
Size is Uncompressed 2.28 GB, and with 7zip Compression 612 MB.
fore reference
They use 3 maps not 4. (Diffuse, Roughness, Normal Map for scratches).
Also : "For example, the statue of the warrior that you can see in the temple is made of eight pieces (head, torso, arms, legs, etc). Each piece has a set of three textures (base colour, metalness/roughness, and normal maps for tiny scratches). So, we end up with eight sets of 8K textures, for a total of 24 8K textures for one statue alone,"
Additionally you should look at the size of an actual in game 8k texture or 4k texture and extrapolate from there. Remember that consoles ultilize compression and from Xbox One we know that MS stated that 4k texture take up 8MB of memory.
No in the actual translation he said he ran it at 1080p at 40 fps.
Also he said :
So engine will scale with weaker ssd which is given as ue5 is scalable engine
No he didn't he was giving a hypothetical "If you had 1080P". He was referring to a statement made by ANOTHER engineer an hour ago.
I thought translation is just to translate not to put words into peoples mouth. Those two statements are almost 2 hours apart and have nothing to do with each other.
Damigos
Member
hyperbertha
Member
Suddenly everyone understands Chinese and one side says its 1440p and other side says 1080p.
Thirty7ven
Banned
Tim is basically saying the Chinese dude is talking about hitting 40 FPS (without vsynch) on PS5, not on his laptop.
The only information that’s worth anything is the information about scalability.
Very lovely and precious how the FUD spread in such coordinated fashion. The internet is running thick with insecurity. The pre established narrative is in shambles.
The only information that’s worth anything is the information about scalability.
Very lovely and precious how the FUD spread in such coordinated fashion. The internet is running thick with insecurity. The pre established narrative is in shambles.
ethomaz
Banned
He never said 1440p it the video.Suddenly everyone understands Chinese and one side says its 1440p and other side says 1080p.
He talks about 1080p (2k) as example (plus 2 triangles per pixels and some others downgrades) at the end to run at bandwidth IO/SSD not as high as PS5.
So one is made up for sure.
This guy on ERA did a resume or the situation:
“I think that’s simply a case of crossed wires over running a mp4 of the demo vs talking about how the tech runs on a laptop. In the technical detail, nothing Sweeney or this Q+A reportedly revealed contradict each other. What that Q+A just more explicitly confirms is that Nanite can dynamically scale triangle fidelity according to your data access. 1080p/2tris per pixel should indeed be in the realm of MB/s rather than GB/s. Sweeney already said this will scale down, it just won’t look as good. In saying ‘this needs MB/s, not GB/s’, I don’t think this engineer is at all claiming you’ll get the same fidelity on MB/s. Simply that the tech can scale it down to that level.”
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pyrocro
Member
He does not understand and does not care.
how in holy hell does he think the two technologies are NOT running at the same time.
which would make it similar to REYES.
It's not Sony or Microsoft inventing these concepts and most of these concepts have been around for decades.
do you two need a private thread.
Ok this is my last one lol
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
yet the engineer said they had to optimize data layout to be able to do the flight section, that wouldn't be done unless it was necessary. They already said sata doesn't work, and it seems even nvmes need data layout optimization to work in some sections. That layout optimization is only possible on a fixed path, an open world won't be possible
ToadMan
Member
So it was literally a tech demo to showcase the SSD.
The tech demo that has the going slowly through a crack in the wall to help load the game moments
<sigh>. That scene was to show the details available dynamically in the cave wall geometry and texture.
It was a design choice not a hardware limitation construct.
Exodia
Banned
Seems like you need to improve your translations skillsExodia
Are we reading the same thing? He said FOR EXAMPLE.
And this comments comes almost 2 hours apart from the statement made by ANOTHER engineer.
There are no correlation or connection what so ever.
Even then he's talking about running it at MB/s level meaning a XSX with 4.8 GB/s would run this flawlessly.
MB/s level is a Sata 3 SSD (Samsung 860 EVO for example which gets 520 MB/s). Even then that SSD doesn't even get the full 520 MB/s because of I/O issues. This is why a Nvme.2 card loads games identical to a Sata 3 SSD.
This is without taking into account the upgrades:
- high-speed hardware decompression deliver over 6 GB/s
- Direct Storage API (from two Zen CPU cores for overhead to 10% of a single core)
- Thermal Heatsink on SSD for constant 2.4 GB/s
- New compression [system] called BCPack for GPU textures
- Whole I/O improvement equals five Zen 2 CPU cores but now only takes 10% of a CPU core.
- Sampler Feedback Streaming (hardware and software based)
Its night and day.
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LazyParrot
Member
Someone on r/hardware wrote a pretty informative post about the (probable) technology behind Nanite. According to his estimates the demo was most likely significantly larger than 100 GB in size, despite only being 10 minutes long.
Thirty7ven
Banned
So, people are downplaying the PS5 demo going by the false assumption that the Chinese laptop ranat the same quality, when in fact it ran at 1080p at lower detail?
What a surprise.
Worse, a Chinese laptop running a video.
A bunch of people left looking like fools.
hyperbertha
Member
Psykodad
Banned
ethomaz
Banned
So why you denied at he said? He clearly give a example in 1080p like I posted and you called FUD.
Yeap MB/s with 1080p, scaled down to 2 tri per pixels, quality downgrade...
That way you really don’t need PS5 SSD’s speeds because if you know the tech scale even to mobiles.
Now let’s talk about how the demo run on PS5... multiple triangles per pixel, 1440p... the own Epic China says it needs PS5’s SSD bandwidth.
We can do math if you wish...
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Psykodad
Banned
That makes a lot of the discussion of yesterday even more laughable.
Hopefully some people will get off their high horse now.
ToadMan
Member
The xsx has about 44% more CUs running around 20% slower than the PS5s.
That is less of a difference than the the PS4 had over x1 last gen where the PS4 had 50% more CUs running about 7% slower.
If you want to compare teraflops, the PS4 had a 40% advantage over the xb1.
That power advantage got the PS4 one step extra resolution over xb1 multiplats - 1080 games ran at 900 on xb1. FPS was the same.
This coming gen with less of a power difference there won’t be a FPS or resolution difference between PS5 and Xsex - at least not one worth talking about by any rational person.
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ethomaz
Banned
He is guessing or have actual info?
Because the Epic creator of the tech said they created Nanite with game size in mind so it won’t be something drastic difference.
I will try to find the tweet about that but it was in my notebook history and not here in phone.
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Sorry about that, was not aware. He makes them available in a few days there and in Youtube, and I think I paraphrased everything anyway.
Exodia
Banned
The only people who believe this are people who want to believe this and it shows.
To believe this is to turn off common sense. A video that is NOW taken down by Epic Games (shocker)
In which a dozen different native speakers translated the exact same thing. In which even Google Translate app translated similar things.
Are you saying Google Translate is in on it too?
Ridiculous. You see what you want to see.
The google translate app made it clear that that when the question was asked on how it runs on PC. The engineer says they already have it running on their laptop in the editor and its not cooked (meaning it wasn't built so its more resource heavy) and yet its still running at 40 fps.
Are you calling the engineer stupid? that somehow the engineer was talking about the video that they are watching and giving commentary and answering Q\A on?
Are you really going to discard logic and reason?
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pyrocro
Member
I'm confused about the translation you provided. where is the 1080p claim?No in the actual translation he said he ran it at 1080p at 40 fps.
Also he said :
So engine will scale with weaker ssd which is given as ue5 is scalable engine
I actually see a 2k reference. which would be 1440p
Exodia
Banned
Come to think of it. Yesterday i never even heard 1080p either. I always heard 2k on my google translate app. I thought the app was off on that translation as its off on other stuff.
But i guess you are right on the money. 2k is 1440p.
ethomaz
Banned
2k is 1080p in 16:9.
The actual 2k resolution is 2048 x 1080.
1440p is 2.5k... 2560 x 1440.
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hyperbertha
Member
Except they didn't translate the exact same thing? I saw different translations everywhere. The part where it was running at 1440p was taken out of context more likely, and I'm finding it hard to believe these random chinese people should be taken seriously at all. In the video you clearly could see the .mp4 so Sweeney isn't wrong. The whole thing is looking extremely confusing, all the individual translations are out of context, and its extremely unlikely a notebook with a 2070 level GPU can run that demo that well. Also there are translations on Resetera that directly contradicts what you are saying, so who is seeing what they want to see?