ethomaz
Banned
That video discuss pretty well what we know with Epic and the Video from China.
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Tim Sweeney on the Tech Demo: "Nanite and Lumen tech powering it will be fully supported on both PS5 and Xbox Series X and will be awesome on both."
- Thread starter ManaByte
- Start date
GHG
Member
He wasn't lying when he said some people are going to be disappointed...
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funking giblet
Member
Nice baseless argument. In what context exactly, especially relating to the demo? You aren’t loading gigs of data, you just want to update the VRAM as fast as possible with whatever comes into view. This could be a relatively small amount of data. How would speed help over Latency here or are you just spouting nonsense?
Right, so in that case you would have two loading points, which doesn't seem sufficient to load multiple tens of gigabytes. And let's think about the transfer rates involved. We know the PS5 has a typical throughput of around 9 GB/s, when dealing with compressed data, so it should be able to fill its RAM within ~1.5 seconds. So why again do we need several seconds of walking along the wall, or a long cutscene?
Edit: Also, based on the below quote from one of the developers, new data is continuously being streamed in, not just at set load points:
"There are tens of billions of triangles in that scene, and we simply couldn't have them all in memory at once," he says, referring to a bunch of statues in the demo. "So what we ended up needing to do is streaming in triangles as the camera is moving throughout the environment. The IO capabilities of PlayStation 5 are one of the key hardware features that enable us to achieve that level of realism."
Epic's Unreal Engine 5 demo showed us the PS5 vision that Sony has only told us about
Showing is always better than telling
www.gamesradar.com
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DoctaThompson
Banned
He did share the specs. I'm not sure why you feel the need to fight the facts. It was proven in several translations. Full 1440p, over 40fps, in an unoptimized environment. You'll see for yourself if you actually rely on facts, instead of projecting what you want. I have the video and translations from the Chinese themselves. I just don't understand the insecurity that some people have with hardware you have no interest in? Why can't other people enjoy things too? Which well happen as Tim confirmed it will be available to benchmark on PC. Wonder if this will be spun some other way as well...
Endless Fluff
Banned
This is a big problem with how they unveiled this tech demo. There is no documentation, everything is speculation.
Back then when they revealed the elemental demo for UE4, they had a huge pamphlet they gave away during their Siggraph 2012 showing. It explained everything in detail, what it was doing in which scene, how it ran, at what settings it ran, what they did to make it work etc. They also did this for the Samaritan demo at GDC 2011 and even when they were showing upgrades to the UE4 like with the Infiltrator demo, in 2015, they released a small piece of documentation.
Now we have a teaser that functions as something to show off the capabilities of a next-gen console instead of giving us more information.
The fact that they can't really talk about anything in terms of specs and how it actually works (how much data is it really streaming?) is the icing on the cake, because the consoles are under NDA... and they apparently can't show us the engine running on PC hardware (it smells like a deal) as the chinese video where they talk about it got taken down. We only got "triangles, triangles, TRIANGLES!!!" and "it runs awesome on a normal NVMe SSD", like what does that even mean? Thanks for nothing, I guess.
Everything is wrong with this, it's only there to generate hype... which is also nice, but it's also dumb.
ethomaz
Banned
Let’s give a change to shame yourself.
What time in the video and what the translation you have? Share with us.
Let’s see where you find 1440p.
Because Beyond3D, Resetera, Twitter... alo places you can find the translation... all of them says he never said which specs he ran the demo... never said the resolution.
Let’s see what you made up.
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MasterCornholio
Member
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Jayjayhd34
Member
Why don't you just share your suppose translation with the source?
DoctaThompson
Banned
Performance of the engine is under NDA. He can't reveal details, but Epic China, who actually WORKs
on the engine, have given input and revealed details. The same reason why the video was taken down in the first place. I posted a source which has detailed translations and highlights features in an earlier post. Some just can't accept the truth though.
Now you know that'll never happen.
MasterCornholio
Member
When you have Tim Sweeney making comments like this I have some doubts on what your saying. He seems a little bit too specific with that comment and it should have been taken down if it was wrong.
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ethomaz
Banned
Already did it in this own thread but let's repeat
The source video was that one (but it is removed now):
The Beyond3D translation:
* Guy mentioned they can run the demo in the editor at 40fps, not 40+ but did not specify resolution.
* Currently Nanite has some limitations such as only works on static meshes, doesn't support deformation for animation, doesn't support skinned character model, supports opaque material but no mask.
* Lumen costs quite a bit more than Nanite
* UE5 could eventually be a hybrid renderer using both Lumen and Raytracing in the future.
Unreal Engine 5, [UE5 Developer Availability 2022-04-05]
Apparently it runs very well on an RTX 2080 laptop GPU (about 2070 Super performance) with a Samsung 970 Evo SSD, performance was in the range of 1440p, 40+fps. A few things that I noticed from skimming through the video. * Guy mentioned they can run the demo in the editor at 40fps, not 40+ but...forum.beyond3d.com
2:06:30 "If its a 1080P screen, 2 triangle per pixel, make some compression on vertex, than you still can run this demo, no need very high bandwidth and IO like PS5."
Unreal Engine 5 2021 Tech Demo
Apparently it runs very well on an RTX 2080 laptop GPU (about 2070 Super performance) with a Samsung 970 Evo SSD, performance was in the range of...forum.beyond3d.com
When asked if the 1440p / 40fps translation was right? https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/2126263/
The other Twitter translation:
Where it says 1440p? Can anybody shows the timestamp and the translation saying 1440p?
The key minute is 53:00 where he talk about running the demo in list notebook at 40fps and it was never mentioned resolution.
At 126:53 he start to talk about the 1080p example.
Now can you ask the other due for his suppose translation with 1440p? He will never share because it doesn't exist except in the Reddit made up summary.
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DoctaThompson
Banned
No, the developer even came out after the video and said the what he said about the demo, and the laptop specs, are true. The video of the ps5 video was playing on repeat in the video, so they could address different technology, implementation, and so forth that was going on.
I mean seriously, why would he need to give the specs of the laptop, and a specific framerate during a scene, in regards to playing back a video? He would only need a single core processor, 2gb of ram in order to do that. There would be no reason for him to lie, as he's had hands on with the engine himself, and doubled down by confirming the specs of the laptop that it ran on. Even one of the least devs from the ps5 reveal said it was running pretty good on a 2070. Seriously, why would a dev lie about that in a video where you received a more technical breakdown of the engine, and how they were able to get nanite/lumen working to begin with. In a developer eccentric vlog, not a consumer show off.
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MasterCornholio
Member
The PS5s GPU is supposed to be more powerful than a 5700Xt which is more powerful than that GPU in that laptop. Which is why all this seems a little bit strange to me. The numbers don't need to match the specifications which is why many are questioning them.
Jayjayhd34
Member
Already did it in this own thread but let's repeat
The source video was that one (but it is removed now):
The Beyond3D translation:
When asked if the 1440p / 40fps translation was right? https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/2126263/
The other Twitter translation:
Where it says 1440p? Can anybody shows the timestamp and the translation saying 1440p?
The key minute is 53:00 and it was never mentioned resolution.
I'm not bother abut res right now your believing that translation that directly contradicts everything time says, especially the fact that the demo did not need GB/sec data speeds ?
ethomaz
Banned
What?
There is no translation that contradicts what it is translated by these two sources.
He says that it can run the demo with MB/s SSDs instead of GB/s like PS5... he even gives an example with 1080p, 1-2 triangles per pixel, etc... you don't need GB/s bandwidth.
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Jayjayhd34
Member
ethomaz
Banned
Yeap I even give example in this thread.
The demo is scalable... you can tune it down to use less bandwidth like Epic said.
Epic China said the same.
Why I will say something that I made posts about is false lol
What are you even talking about?
Edit - My math with what China said and how it can reach MB/s with his own example in the video: https://www.neogaf.com/threads/tim-...ill-be-awesome-on-both.1541655/post-258212538
The Demo can run even on mobile.
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I am just wondering .. that flying section in the UE5 demo lasted 25 seconds .. lets say it fully saturated the 5 gb/s of ps5 ssd .. that is total of 125gb of storage just for that section of the game, how much storage are next gen games gonna take, 10tb per game ?
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Obviously it was streaming the same parts multiple times. Keeping everything in RAM is a bad idea.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
That is not how any of that works. Hence streaming assets in and out on the fly. Every frame is not unique textures, polys, etc.. WTF?
5GB/s? I see what you're doing.
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ethomaz
Banned
I need to find the twitter but one of the creators was asked about the big size of the game and he replied saying they developed Nanite already with games size in mind.
So I believe it is not that big increase.
Edit - Found in no Phone history.
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Mattyp
Gold Member
MasterCornholio
Member
But the demo using the same assets as the PS5 one or was it a scaled down version?
I find it hard to believe that 8k textures only need MB/s instead of GB/s.
I saw the tweet
DoctaThompson
Banned
It would have to be the same assets. If it were lesser quality assets, or even lesser resolution, the demo would run much faster than 40fps.
The only mention of 1080p would be for HDD and how they could optimize the engine to cater to older consoles and phones to reduce quality. Hence mb's instead of gb's. Although the engine didn't require super fast ssd. I'm not sure why others are saying otherwise?
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ethomaz
Banned
He never said the settings.
But if you take his comments you will reach the conclusion it was a downgrade version to fit his notebook capabilities.
Starting by the GPU... the mobile RTX 2080 MaxQ is inferior to RTX 2070... so he ran in a GPU way inferior to PS5’s GPU and reached 40fps... that means he did not use the PS5 demo resolution setthings.
He says the SSD speeds is extreme important but you can run the demo at MB/s instead of GB/s of PS5.
At the end he gives another example (that probably is what he ran in his notebook) 1080p, 1-2 triangles per pixel, vortex compression, etc and you can run at SATA SSDs (less 750MB/s).
ethomaz
Banned
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Jayjayhd34
Member
IF you believe he was running demo then why did Tim lie on his twitter account ? Stating they where only watching a video.
MasterCornholio
Member
I was reading through another thread and not only are the settings and resolution higher on the PS5, there's speculation that the PS5 is running it at a higher framerate than that laptop.
This kind of dispels the notion that the PS5 is a weak console running at 9 TFs or that it's GPU isn't RDNA2.
MasterCornholio
Member
They were watching a video. But then they also talked about the same demo running on the laptop. Doesn't mean that they were playing through the demo on the laptop during the stream.
ethomaz
Banned
I believe he ran the demo at his work not at the live streaming.
At the live steaming they showed the PS5 video.
Tim said he can’t understand what is being said in the video but what they showed was a video fome the PS5 presentation.
They asked him if was true the Epic employee was running the Demo at his notebook... so he watched and did that reply without understand the live steaming.
This.
The guy that asked Tim did make confusion saying they were running the demo in the notebook and linked the video.
Tim watched (he don’t understand what they talk) and give the reply that they were playing the video from the PS5 demo.
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Jayjayhd34
Member
Who said ps5 gpu is not rdna2? that is 100% inaccurate.
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MasterCornholio
Member
Theres speculation that it's RDNA1.5 and not RDNA2.
Lisa said it's RDNA2 which is what I'm going with.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
"Speculation" That's a fancy new word for FUD, eh? (in this instance)
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ethomaz
Banned
Yeap Tim said they locked with Vsync the PS5 demo at 30fps.
It should ran at way higher than 30fps average for that... the Vsync alone already says it needs to be higher than 40fps.
BTW PS5 being RDNA 2 is already confirmed from dozen of parts including Sony, Epic, devs, etc... even the TimDog gang didn’t say it anymore.
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MasterCornholio
Member
Some people say that custom RDNA2= RDNA2 with some features missing which makes it RDNA1.5.
I believe that the PS5s GPU contains all the hardware features that RDNA2 has plus whatever extra Sony added to it.
MasterCornholio
Member
Plus they said they were running it off an old dev kit. What I don't know if it was the V shaped one or the PC Tower.
oldergamer
Member
People need to not freak out about this. Most of the hardware in PS5 came from the PC space. They did make changes to allow it to work a lot better then similar drives in the PC space, They get props for having the fastest NVME drive out there. The closest on PC that i found is:
Sabrent 1TB Rocket NVMe 4.0 Gen4 PCIe M.2 Internal SSD Extreme Performance Solid State Drive
That drive has 5GB/s read speed. Pretty good price too btw. Anyway, both Xbox and PS5 are tinkering with hardware designed for PC's. Each have made changes in different ways, however IMO this drive by itself isn't some sort of revolutionary change. It's more evolutionary. This isn't the first time anyone has coupled hardware compression & decompression of data ( Intel and AMD have been doing this for a while in different configurations), more lanes for these drives and cards are regularly being added to PC Mobos. Changes that are evoloutionary to performance on PC hardware is made a number of times per year ( some small, while some are large ). AMD has a video card with a a SSD attached to it for goodness sake.
getting back to it, I'm sure we will see soon enough if the difference in speed really matters. Sorry Should have listed before, but this video talks about how heat affected performance when the drives were under heavy load, and performance was cut by 50% in some cases.
Sabrent 1TB Rocket NVMe 4.0 Gen4 PCIe M.2 Internal SSD Extreme Performance Solid State Drive
That drive has 5GB/s read speed. Pretty good price too btw. Anyway, both Xbox and PS5 are tinkering with hardware designed for PC's. Each have made changes in different ways, however IMO this drive by itself isn't some sort of revolutionary change. It's more evolutionary. This isn't the first time anyone has coupled hardware compression & decompression of data ( Intel and AMD have been doing this for a while in different configurations), more lanes for these drives and cards are regularly being added to PC Mobos. Changes that are evoloutionary to performance on PC hardware is made a number of times per year ( some small, while some are large ). AMD has a video card with a a SSD attached to it for goodness sake.
getting back to it, I'm sure we will see soon enough if the difference in speed really matters. Sorry Should have listed before, but this video talks about how heat affected performance when the drives were under heavy load, and performance was cut by 50% in some cases.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Some spread FUD.
You don't remove features from the base RDNA tech you choose, you add to them. The features are already there as a baseline. Either way, Lisa confirmed it. You are smarter than this to decipher that BS and where it stems from. Come on.
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MasterCornholio
Member
I keep seeing it over and over again and I'm happy to see official sources prove them wrong.
I know it's just some discord FUD.
DoctaThompson
Banned
Supposedly ps5 is using dram-less SSD's according to leaks. They have their own controller, so I'll give them that. But as far as sustained speeds, we will have to see how they will do.
oldergamer
Member
I'm going to put a heat sink on my NVME drive. yikes.
oldergamer
Member
How do they achieve that? do you mean they have the memory attached to the motherboard?
DoctaThompson
Banned
You can buy ssd's with or without dram. Dram would drive up the costs, substantially, but would improve performance greatly. Taking into account of mass producing millions, it would have been expensive to go with dram drives in ps5.
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oldergamer
Member
So faster NVME drives consume more power and put off more heat. Gen 3 drives run a lot cooler than Gen 4.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
But won't you not need DRAM if it's (the controllers) sandwiched with the SOC (let's say the other side of it on the mainboard) communicating directly to the GDDR6?
Some are speculating that is the design which fits the cooling patent of a heatsink on both sides of the mainboard sandwiching it all together. Almost 3D stacked in a way. And not unlike the CoC SiD design in the Vita, which Cerny was the lead architect as well.
It does have on chip SRAM, which is faster than DRAM and doesn't need to be constantly refreshed:
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Rusco Da Vino
Member
Reality check 
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How?
DoctaThompson
Banned
The video playing was from ps5. The commentary on the other hand, referred to the gameplay, on the laptop, which has been confirmed a couple of times now by several different people.
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