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[lock2k]

I vehemently disagree with the idea that people are just "turning gay" to find love. You can't "turn gay", it is something you inherently are. The issue is that these folks surround themselves in an echo chamber and look for reasons to be offended. They are so insecure that they blame any criticism, any insult as being directed to their most noticeable trait: their sexuality. Same thing happens with race, religion, or politics.

Ever remember seeing or hearing someone (whether first hand or through media) bring up the race card when they feel insulted? How about neckbeards who call women whores for not dating them? Same concept here. The primarily issue is that you can't call these people out for being assholes as that is against "social norms" these days and you could face backlash.



Key and Peele did an excellent video and you can watch it above. Basically the very phenomena we are talking about.

I agree with you that people can'r turn gay. You either are or aren't. However, there are a lot of posers nowadays that do it because it's seen as cool and will regret it later on.

 

[D.Final]

I agree with you that people can'r turn gay. You either are or aren't. However, there are a lot of posers nowadays that do it because it's seen as cool and will regret it later on.

True

 

[Woggleman]

A cousin of mine is an actually lesbian and she says her most toxic relationship ever was with a straight who decided she was tired of men and decided to date women. She said that she is allergic to accountability and it is clear that the men in those relationships were not the problem.

 

[EDMIX]

The director of this game considers anita sarkeesians work to be highly influential in his approach to writing for the last of us. That is all.

Thats nice.

He is allowed to do that, or you telling me only you have say on how folks can create art? Whats allowed and whats not?

PanzerAzel "if it were a hetero couple musing over the previous evening’s intimacy, as it would feel equally misplaced, strained, and irrelevant" ??? Or the game is just setting up the character to have a love interest.....

Folks are trying their HARDEST to pretend that would be irrelevant in a story literally about revenge. It just sounds massively desperate and grasping at straws to argue a character kissing a love interest isn't relevant.......

So when Peach kisses Mario its "equally misplaced, strained, and irrelevant" , yup zero intent to follow a narrative and create a dynamic relationship between characters, must be agenda... Was not put there for any other reason as clearly its "equally misplaced, strained, and irrelevant" as humans don't behave as such apparently.

"going out of their way to make note of itself" That just means in games, a relationship has not been shown in such a way, that doesn't mean it some secrete agenda bud.



So I want you to notice....look at them kissing, hugging, in bed etc. By your logic, that must be " misplaced, strained, and irrelevant" , never mind the core part of the fucking story is the relationship. So ND can market that relationship any fucking way the feel like it, but trying to argue its anything but that with very little evidence other then "be honest with yourself bro" and or "going out of their way to make note of itself" or " obvious what is going on here "

Look at the damn above movie trailers, could you imagine some triggered person saying " yup, must be an agenda here..." "be honest with yourself bro" "going out of their way to make note of itself" " obvious what is going on here " etc.

So the person making the film, book, game, show etc must not really be showing how intense the relationship is, but must be showing a agenda because "obvious what is going on here " and not because they just wanted to show them that way?


oooorrrrrrr its just a fucking trailer showing the deep importance the character has to Ellie......

 

[Palantir]

It's clear as day that the PURPOSE of them making TLOU2 is to foist their LGBT agenda on the large group of people who they know would absolutely not be interested in it were it not for the non-LGBT focused story and setup from the first game. That is why I have a problem with it. It's insidious and disturbing (not the fact that they feature LGBT characters in their game - but how they saw an opportunity after the popularity of the first game to tie their agenda to the second, much-anticipated game). They absolutely knew that the audience that would be interested in such a game is such a tiny group that it would never work otherwise.

If you want to make an agenda or ideologically driven game, that's fine. But they way they played the long con with this is what pissed me off about it so much.

 

[DForce]

It's clear as day that the PURPOSE of them making TLOU2 is to foist their LGBT agenda on the large group of people who they know would absolutely not be interested in it were it not for the non-LGBT focused story and setup from the first game. That is why I have a problem with it. It's insidious and disturbing (not the fact that they feature LGBT characters in their game - but how they saw an opportunity after the popularity of the first game to tie their agenda to the second, much-anticipated game). They absolutely knew that the audience that would be interested in such a game is such a tiny group that it would never work otherwise.

If you want to make an agenda or ideologically driven game, that's fine. But they way they played the long con with this is what pissed me off about it so much.

But Ellie's lesbian relationship is not the focus of TLOU Part II. It's weird how people just jump to conclusions with such little info.

 

[Palantir]

But Ellie's lesbian relationship is not the focus of TLOU Part II. It's weird how people just jump to conclusions with such little info.

It's clear from the trailers (E3 kiss, etc), presentations, personal comments by several ND employees. and the story leaks thus far that pushing an overarching "LGBT normalization / acceptance" narrative is the purpose and the intent behind the game.

 

[DForce]

It's clear from the trailers (E3 kiss, etc), presentations, personal comments by several ND employees. and the story leaks thus far that pushing an overarching "LGBT normalization / acceptance" narrative is the purpose and the intent behind the game.

I read the leaks, too.

So I think it's clear you were reading the fake ones.

 

[Woodchipper]

People who are offended by the fact that Ellie is a lesbian are hilarious as fuck.

 

[MrRogers]

It's clear as day that the PURPOSE of them making TLOU2 is to foist their LGBT agenda on the large group of people who they know would absolutely not be interested in it were it not for the non-LGBT focused story and setup from the first game. That is why I have a problem with it. It's insidious and disturbing (not the fact that they feature LGBT characters in their game - but how they saw an opportunity after the popularity of the first game to tie their agenda to the second, much-anticipated game). They absolutely knew that the audience that would be interested in such a game is such a tiny group that it would never work otherwise.

If you want to make an agenda or ideologically driven game, that's fine. But they way they played the long con with this is what pissed me off about it so much.

Great post and this mirrors my thoughts as well. I might watch a youtube playthrough, but im certainly not buying it due to this kind of manipulation.

 

[DForce]

People who are offended by the fact that Ellie is a lesbian are hilarious as fuck.

This game is just exposing just how sensitive people are.

 

[Panajev2001a]

It's clear from the trailers (E3 kiss, etc), presentations, personal comments by several ND employees. and the story leaks thus far that pushing an overarching "LGBT normalization / acceptance" narrative is the purpose and the intent behind the game.

Ok, let’s assume that they made a game with great gameplay, great acting, great graphics, etc... and say that yes their angle in the story was also to talk about accepting LGBT people?

Can you just clarify what you hate about any of that in a game?

 

[Paracelsus]

Ok, let’s assume that they made a game with great gameplay, great acting, great graphics, etc... and say that yes their angle in the story was also to talk about accepting LGBT people?

Can you just clarify what you hate about any of that in a game?

Because what you described practically never happens, what actually happens is "story sucks, better hide behind [insert agenda of the month]"

 

[Panajev2001a]

Because what you described practically never happens, what actually happens is "story sucks, better hide behind [insert agenda of the month]"

Not really true, but yes it happens in some cases and those games and movies are worse for it.
I take it as you saying that as long as the gameplay and writing does not suck for it that you are happy about games pushing those kind of social / political ideas too then. I can understand that.

I have not seen acting, character and story evolution (you not liking the fate of a character or a very sad depressing story even does not mean that the story sucks or the game is badly written) glaring issues with TLoU part II yet, the leaks gave glimpses of story beats and very light over arching themes... so what is the basis to say that what I said before is not true?

Can you say part of the backlash is really not because those people would rather not to deal with those kind of themes as if they did not exist?

 

[PanzerAzel]

People who are offended by the fact that Ellie is a lesbian are hilarious as fuck.

Who is offended?

I’m offended not by the fact that Ellie’s a lesbian, but that the creators feel the need to constantly point out that she is, and then have the gall to claim everyone bigots and phobes when they’re justly called out for their transparent bullshit instead of taking responsibility for it themselves.

Neil has made no illusions or attempted to hide the fact through his statements, actions, and affiliations of his intent and ideological predilections. Yet hilariously, he pushes the blame onto other people and goes on acting self-righteous and morally superior while attacking them.

 

[Danjin44]

Because what you described practically never happens, what actually happens is "story sucks, better hide behind [insert agenda of the month]"

that part I rather judge it myself, no offense to anyone here but most people in neogaf or even in most gaming forms in general tends to be very hyperbolic about everything and in most cases the things people have issues with, would be none issue for me personally.


So I rather play it and judge it myself once the game finally releases.

 

[DForce]

Who is offended?

I’m offended not by the fact that Ellie’s a lesbian, but that the creators feel the need to constantly point out that she is, and then have the gall to claim everyone bigots and phobes when they’re justly called out for their transparent bullshit instead of taking responsibility for it themselves.

Neil has made no illusions or attempted to hide the fact through his statements, actions, and affiliations of his intent and ideological predilections. Yet hilariously, he pushes the blame onto other people and goes on acting self-righteous and morally superior.

Constantly?

They showed Dina and Ellie kissing in the gameplay reveal trailer. The next trailer that was shown was Dina asking Ellie how she felt about the kiss last night.

At this point, people are just exaggerating and finding reason to be offended.

People are saying they don't care that she's lesbian, but in reality, they do.

 

[rofif]

Who is offended?

I’m offended not by the fact that Ellie’s a lesbian, but that the creators feel the need to constantly point out that she is, and then have the gall to claim everyone bigots and phobes when they’re justly called out for their transparent bullshit instead of taking responsibility for it themselves.

Neil has made no illusions or attempted to hide the fact through his statements, actions, and affiliations of his intent and ideological predilections. Yet hilariously, he pushes the blame onto other people and goes on acting self-righteous and morally superior while attacking them.

Exactly but also:
-Being a lesbian kid in post apocalyptic world? Nobody has time for that...
-She can be a horse for all I care but it's a kid. I could not care less if she is lesbian. It's not important to the story to focus on it

Edit: You know what? Being a lesbian actually is a problem. Fuck that trope and shoving it in our faces

 

[Panajev2001a]

Edit: You know what? Being a lesbian actually is a problem.

What is the problem with that?

 

[Whitecrow]

People who are offended by the fact that Ellie is a lesbian are hilarious as fuck.

You are clearly missing the point.

'Elli is lesbian' is not offending anyone.

'HEY LOOK WE MADE OUR MAIN CHARACTER GAY AS IT FUCKING SHOULD BE AND IF YOU DISAGREE YOU ARE HOMOPHOBIC GARBAGE!!!!" is.

 

[Panajev2001a]

You are clearly missing the point.

'Elli is lesbian' is not offending anyone.

'HEY LOOK WE MADE OUR MAIN CHARACTER GAY AS IT FUCKING SHOULD BE AND IF YOU DISAGREE YOU ARE HOMOPHOBIC GARBAGE!!!!" is.

On the other side if they made her gay and said “you know what, she should be why not?” what is the problem with that? (Agreed with the insults coming after putting them in the wrong)

 

[Whitecrow]

On the other side if they made her gay and said “you know what, she should be why not?” what is the problem with that? (Agreed with the insults coming after putting them in the wrong)

I guess then that the weight of the issues would have been the story. If it makes sense, if it's necessary, if it feels relatable to the world previously build...

 

[rofif]

What is the problem with that?

It's unprobable in this scenario

 

[Clear]

I guess then that the weight of the issues would have been the story. If it makes sense, if it's necessary, if it feels relatable to the world previously build...

Ellie has been canonically gay since Left Behind in 2014. Although originally an add-on for the PS3 version with it being bundles with every copy of the remaster, its a very firm part of the lore and history of the franchise. In no way has it been bolted on.

Furthermore the existence of Left Behind basically painted MD into a corner. Were they to avoid that aspect of Ellie's past and give her a boyfriend in the sequel... what do you think the reaction would be, hmmm? No doubt hordes of inflamed SJW would descend upon them in protest, because that's what happens when idpol fucktards don't get their ideological way.

Honestly, there's no winning either way. And given how the anti-SJW have annointed ND generally and Druckmann in particular as clan enemies already, leaning into it would be the path I'd choose myself.

 

[lucius]

Almost advertising the game around that kiss Is off even if that was a guy kissing Ellie, so yeah I agree with much of the video and many of his points and Naughty Dog is maybe my favorite developer.

 

[PanzerAzel]

We can't discuss spoilers in here about the leaks, even with spoiler tags yeah?

 

[GribbleGrunger]

People who are offended by the fact that Ellie is a lesbian are hilarious as fuck.

This game is just exposing just how sensitive people are.

Please stop simplifying the argument in order to make legitimate concerns over where this industry is going look immature. I remember thread after thread concerning Left Behind and Ellie being a lesbian. People were jumping through hoops to explain her same sex relationship with Riley. They didn't want to accept it. The general thrust of their opinion was that Ellie just had a normal relationship with Riley and that all girls have these kinds of relationships. The build up to that kiss was strewn with clues to their burgeoning relationship. This wasn't a story about Ellie being gay, it was a story of Ellie finally succumbing to 'love'. Love was the theme, NOT, Ellie being a lesbian. For that reason, I supported it wholeheartedly. It was honest and sincere and the kiss choked me up.

Cut to now, after seeing 'the agenda' Neil spoke of (in no uncertain terms), and that changes everything going forward. David Cage is a perfect example of when an agenda can influence writing and de-legitimise it. 'I want to make people cry' ... So, everything about his writing, his directing, his characters, his scenarios are built specifically for the purpose of eliciting 'emotion'. Honesty cannot exist in that structure, no matter how hard you try to hide it because people can see, YOU'VE TRIED TO HIDE IT.

You can't write for the purpose of expressing a political point and then bury it cleverly in the body of text. If you were successful then the political stance you were trying to convey would no longer be there. It's a matter of just letting enough show to get the point across without making it so overt it takes control of the narrative and moves the focus from the characters to the political stance. The problem is, as I've said before, people 'feel' the difference because they've been exposed to great content that doesn't stand of a soapbox, doesn't moralise, and is written from the writer's own experience. This is the mistake EVERYONE is making in films, TV series and games at the moment.

Yes, there are bigots out there who can't accept gay, lesbian, transvestites, blacks, whites or women etc, but to confuse those who have a more meaningful reason for disliking 'the agenda' is insulting.

 

[cormack12]

We can't discuss spoilers in here about the leaks, even with spoiler tags yeah?

All leaks/spoilers go in the one thread to keep it tidy etc

 

[Grinchy]

You know how actors in Hollywood start buying into their own hype and think that they are the messengers for the people, so they start pushing extreme messages while patting themselves on the back?

I think that's what media creators are going through. This Neil Druckman guy thinks he's in a position of great power and must use great responsibility. He thinks he's a messenger for the youth and it's his duty to educate the gaming masses about the same malformed ideas other mind virus victims pushed onto him. And he'll pat himself on the back, and the sycophants around him will pat his back as well (after asking for consent first!).

It's not that some of this stuff is inherently wrong or has no place in gaming or anything like that. It's just that you can see right through why all of this is being pushed. It wasn't just some creative decision-making, it really started with, "How can I force some obscure representation into this project so I can be a good Ally™." And that shit is annoying and pandering.

 

[Clear]

Please stop simplifying the argument in order to make legitimate concerns over where this industry is going look immature.

Truth is plenty of comments ARE immature and ARE homophobic and ARE fucking worthless. The truly mature and objective perspective is recognizing that there's always a mixture of legitimate and illegitimate opinions. This is not "both-sidesism" or some such, its just recognizing that the internet represents a wide spectrum of opinion. Now it just so happens that you can partition these opinions up as you will, grouping them to represent an ideology or movement, but you're never going to get an ideologically, rhetorically "pure" bloc.

See, this is the crucial mistake. Progressives called everyone associated with GamerGate misogynysts and Nazis, even though there was NO DOUBT some peoples that got lumped in were purely interested in reducing cronyism and collusion in the games media/industry.

Problem is, and this goes to where we are right now, THERE WERE AND ARE actual misogynists, homophobes and alt-right goons in the mix too.

Sorry that this is an inconvenient truth. But we all know this to be the case, even if we don't like admitting it.

Cut to now, after seeing 'the agenda' Neil spoke of (in no uncertain terms), and that changes everything going forward. David Cage is a perfect example of when an agenda can influence writing and de-legitimise it. 'I want to make people cry' ... So, everything about his writing, his directing, his characters, his scenarios are built specifically for the purpose of eliciting 'emotion'. Honesty cannot exist in that structure, no matter how hard you try to hide it because people can see, YOU'VE TRIED TO HIDE IT.

You can't write for the purpose of expressing a political point and then bury it cleverly in the body of text. If you were successful then the political stance you were trying to convey would no longer be there. It's a matter of just letting enough show to get the point across without making it so overt it takes control of the narrative and moves the focus from the characters to the political stance. The problem is, as I've said before, people 'feel' the difference because they've been exposed to great content that doesn't stand of a soapbox, doesn't moralise, and is written from the writer's own experience. This is the mistake EVERYONE is making in films, TV series and games at the moment.

First things first, you might dislike Druckmann's politics and the way he's putting them front-and-center in his work, but what right do you have to say that he shouldn't be able to do that? Does everything have to pass your political filter? You're sounding awful authoritarian.

As to the thing about David Cage, since when was trying to evoke a reaction from the audience an "agenda"? Its basic dramaturgy.

Do you honestly believe that both ideas and emotions have no place in authorial intent? And if so, what does that leave?

The degree of focus on message versus narrative is kinda irrelevant because saying there's too much of one and too little of the other is a subjective determination, and the truth is some people are so narrow minded and prone to reactionary thoughts and feelings it takes very little to set them off.
Case in point being Ellie's lesbian kiss.

Yes, there are bigots out there who can't accept gay, lesbian, transvestites, blacks, whites or women etc, but to confuse those who have a more meaningful reason for disliking 'the agenda' is insulting.

Yes there are, and you need to remember that they are just as likely to be on your side as opposing you.

Neither "side" shits rainbows and moonbeams. In this specific instance there are people who will agree with you on this matter not because of any noble motive, but because they are just homophobic fucktards who are threatened by a major game having a lesbian lead character.

What you need to be asking yourself is: Are these my comrades? Or are they just a convenient "enemy of my enemy is my friend" deal?

Most of all you need to think about how the company you are keeping might affect the way those you are engaging with think about you. Was Druckmann really out of line pulling up the Kurt Cobain quote, do you think everyone giving him and ND shit on Twitter is above that specific retort?

Honestly. The only way forward is to stand your ground as an individual, not as a member of a barely organized coalition of superficially compatible positions on the internet. SJW or Anti-SJW, two sides of the same shit-slicked coin.

Fuck 'em both. Equally.

 

[HaveButOneLife]

People who are offended by the fact that Ellie is a lesbian are hilarious as fuck.

If you think that that's the reason why people are MAD (not actually "oFfEnDeD") then you are even more hilarious, and hysterical on top of that.

That's all you apologists are doing, saying that it's because "muh gay characters", what a silly thing to say. There's more to social justice than cringey LGBT apologists.

 

[DForce]

Cut to now, after seeing 'the agenda' Neil spoke of (in no uncertain terms), and that changes everything going forward. David Cage is a perfect example of when an agenda can influence writing and de-legitimise it. 'I want to make people cry' ... So, everything about his writing, his directing, his characters, his scenarios are built specifically for the purpose of eliciting 'emotion'. Honesty cannot exist in that structure, no matter how hard you try to hide it because people can see, YOU'VE TRIED TO HIDE IT.

You can't write for the purpose of expressing a political point and then bury it cleverly in the body of text. If you were successful then the political stance you were trying to convey would no longer be there. It's a matter of just letting enough show to get the point across without making it so overt it takes control of the narrative and moves the focus from the characters to the political stance. The problem is, as I've said before, people 'feel' the difference because they've been exposed to great content that doesn't stand of a soapbox, doesn't moralise, and is written from the writer's own experience. This is the mistake EVERYONE is making in films, TV series and games at the moment.

Yes, there are bigots out there who can't accept gay, lesbian, transvestites, blacks, whites or women etc, but to confuse those who have a more meaningful reason for disliking 'the agenda' is insulting.

I have to simplify it because it's the truth.

There wouldn't be such a big outcry if Ellie was in a straight relationship. Her relationship with another woman isn't the main focus of this story. So is this so called "agenda" going to make me feel like a political message is going to be shoved down my throat? Based on the leaks that I read, it's not.

I referenced Walking Dead a lot because it's a perfect example of what's going on now. There's no secret as to why the cast of the walking Dead is diverse. You have many gay couples on screen sharing intimate moments with each other. Does having a diverse cast take away anything from the main plot of the story? it doesn't. They're pushing this "agenda" but I'm not going around complaining about seeing this on screen because it doesn't take away from the actual narrative of the story.

 

[DForce]

If you think that that's the reason why people are MAD (not actually "oFfEnDeD") then you are even more hilarious, and hysterical on top of that.

That's all you apologists are doing, saying that it's because "muh gay characters", what a silly thing to say. There's more to social justice than cringey LGBT apologists.

The funny part is that most of the things people are upset about are not actually going to happen in this game. I'm just waiting when this game comes out just to see how many people are going to admit they were wrong about this game.

 

[HaveButOneLife]

I have to simplify it because it's the truth.

There wouldn't be such a big outcry if Ellie was in a straight relationship. Her relationship with another woman isn't the main focus of this story. So is this so called "agenda" going to make me feel like a political message is going to be shoved down my throat? Based on the leaks that I read, it's not.

I referenced Walking Dead a lot because it's a perfect example of what's going on now. There's no secret as to why the cast of the walking Dead is diverse. You have many gay couples on screen sharing intimate moments with each other. Does having a diverse cast take away anything from the main plot of the story? it doesn't. They're pushing this "agenda" but I'm not going around complaining about seeing this on screen because it doesn't take away from the actual narrative of the story.

Probably because nobody has an actual issue with Ellie's relationship, but the feminist nonsense. We all knew she was gay in Left Behind and they accepted it then. In TWD, people didn't complain about the romances because most people don't care about romances but actual political opinions being shoved down our throats, especially incorrect ones at that.

It's like if somebody in a game cried about the "wage gap", of course people would get upset, because it's a stupid concept. Now they want to make their females burly like men.

The funny part is that most of the things people are upset about are not actually going to happen in this game. I'm just waiting when this game comes out just to see how many people are going to admit they were wrong about this game.

I'll hold you to that.

Clear I see what you're saying and I absolutely agree. Some Gamer Gaters really did use that movement for their own agendas and most did want more ethical journalist integrity.

Some are crying about the LGBT romances, but to be fair, some apologists just want to make assumptions and include people like me in those groups, even though my issue isn't with LGBT romances at all but PDA in a video game in general (it serves no purpose, period), feminism, etc.

Druckmann can do what he wants, but it's his decisions that are shaping up how his game is received and he honestly should expect that to happen if he feels so strongly about his ignorant beliefs. He's the one boiling it down to simply be about "muh homophobia" because he's that much of a disingenuous human being, just like Anita.

 

[EverydayBeast]

Replacing Nathan Drake will be Naughty Dog's biggest challenge and it's a situation they put themselves in with Uncharted 4's ending.

 

[Woggleman]

The way some anti-sjws react to this game is how many sjws act towards the Joker movie. Two sides to the same coin.

 

[HaveButOneLife]

The way some anti-sjws react to this game is how many sjws act towards the Joker movie. Two sides to the same coin.

You're so full of crap.

Don't have insufferable beliefs and people won't hate on your game for it.

 

[Woodchipper]

If you think that that's the reason why people are MAD (not actually "oFfEnDeD") then you are even more hilarious, and hysterical on top of that.

That's all you apologists are doing, saying that it's because "muh gay characters", what a silly thing to say. There's more to social justice than cringey LGBT apologists.

Apologists? What are you talking about? I simply don’t give a fuck. How does that make me an apologist?

 

[HaveButOneLife]

Apologists? What are you talking about? I simply don’t give a fuck. How does that make me an apologist?

If you really didn't you wouldn't try to contribute to the topic of discussion, how dare I assume that you'd jump on the game's defense?

 

[Woggleman]

I am not an apologist because there is nothing to apologize for.

 

[Woodchipper]

If you really didn't you wouldn't try to contribute to the topic of discussion, how dare I assume that you'd jump on the game's defense?

I have no idea how the game is, so no, I’m not at all on the game’s defense. All I know is that if the game ends up being garbage, it will not be because it features a lesbian couple, because that has zero relevance.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

It's clear as day that the PURPOSE of them making TLOU2 is to foist their LGBT agenda on the large group of people who they know would absolutely not be interested in it were it not for the non-LGBT focused story and setup from the first game. That is why I have a problem with it. It's insidious and disturbing (not the fact that they feature LGBT characters in their game - but how they saw an opportunity after the popularity of the first game to tie their agenda to the second, much-anticipated game). They absolutely knew that the audience that would be interested in such a game is such a tiny group that it would never work otherwise.

If you want to make an agenda or ideologically driven game, that's fine. But they way they played the long con with this is what pissed me off about it so much.

More people bought the version that contains a lesbian romance than bought the PS3 vanilla version, though. If it's insidious and disturbing then it was insidious and disturbing when it was done in Left Behind, not simply continuing it in the sequel. You still haven't made clear why having Ellie be gay makes the game agenda-driven or ideologically driven. Long con?

It's clear from the trailers (E3 kiss, etc), presentations, personal comments by several ND employees. and the story leaks thus far that pushing an overarching "LGBT normalization / acceptance" narrative is the purpose and the intent behind the game.

I've seen all the leaks... that really doesn't seem to be the purpose behind the game.

Who is offended?

I’m offended not by the fact that Ellie’s a lesbian, but that the creators feel the need to constantly point out that she is, and then have the gall to claim everyone bigots and phobes when they’re justly called out for their transparent bullshit instead of taking responsibility for it themselves.

Neil has made no illusions or attempted to hide the fact through his statements, actions, and affiliations of his intent and ideological predilections. Yet hilariously, he pushes the blame onto other people and goes on acting self-righteous and morally superior while attacking them.

Who is offended? I dunno... Palantir for one?

What do you mean constantly need to point out that she is? I didn't see them call everyone bigots or phobes, I did see Druckman quote Kurt Cobain saying if you ARE one to go away.

Yeah, he also said TLOU 1 was fueled by his personal politics, the one everyone who's currently angry supposedly loved.

Exactly but also:
-Being a lesbian kid in post apocalyptic world? Nobody has time for that...
-She can be a horse for all I care but it's a kid. I could not care less if she is lesbian. It's not important to the story to focus on it

Edit: You know what? Being a lesbian actually is a problem. Fuck that trope and shoving it in our faces

Nobody has time for relationships... even people who now live in a nice, peaceful settlement like Ellie now does.
Her relationship isn't important to the story... maybe wait and see on that one?

The "trope" of being a lesbian, ah yes.

You are clearly missing the point.

'Elli is lesbian' is not offending anyone.

'HEY LOOK WE MADE OUR MAIN CHARACTER GAY AS IT FUCKING SHOULD BE AND IF YOU DISAGREE YOU ARE HOMOPHOBIC GARBAGE!!!!" is.

Man, you guys keep claiming it's not offending anyone despite ample evidence right in the thread.

If you disagree that the character is gay? What?

Please stop simplifying the argument in order to make legitimate concerns over where this industry is going look immature. I remember thread after thread concerning Left Behind and Ellie being a lesbian. People were jumping through hoops to explain her same sex relationship with Riley. They didn't want to accept it. The general thrust of their opinion was that Ellie just had a normal relationship with Riley and that all girls have these kinds of relationships. The build up to that kiss was strewn with clues to their burgeoning relationship. This wasn't a story about Ellie being gay, it was a story of Ellie finally succumbing to 'love'. Love was the theme, NOT, Ellie being a lesbian. For that reason, I supported it wholeheartedly. It was honest and sincere and the kiss choked me up.

Cut to now, after seeing 'the agenda' Neil spoke of (in no uncertain terms), and that changes everything going forward. David Cage is a perfect example of when an agenda can influence writing and de-legitimise it. 'I want to make people cry' ... So, everything about his writing, his directing, his characters, his scenarios are built specifically for the purpose of eliciting 'emotion'. Honesty cannot exist in that structure, no matter how hard you try to hide it because people can see, YOU'VE TRIED TO HIDE IT.

You can't write for the purpose of expressing a political point and then bury it cleverly in the body of text. If you were successful then the political stance you were trying to convey would no longer be there. It's a matter of just letting enough show to get the point across without making it so overt it takes control of the narrative and moves the focus from the characters to the political stance. The problem is, as I've said before, people 'feel' the difference because they've been exposed to great content that doesn't stand of a soapbox, doesn't moralise, and is written from the writer's own experience. This is the mistake EVERYONE is making in films, TV series and games at the moment.

Yes, there are bigots out there who can't accept gay, lesbian, transvestites, blacks, whites or women etc, but to confuse those who have a more meaningful reason for disliking 'the agenda' is insulting.

Oh, these are now overarching concerns over the industry in general? So the real problem is there might be more gay people in games? That sounds sad, was there really multiple threads of people upset Ellie is gay in Left Behind? Explain her relationship? Some people are gay, relationship explained. All girls have these sorts of relationships? What? But her love was for another girl. So, you're saying the kiss worked on you when you saw it in context?

Neil also claimed his agenda fueled the game that choked you up. David Cage is a far worse writer than Druckman. You just said you got choked up, why does making people cry offend you? Built specifically to elicit emotion? Wow, sounds like all entertainment ever, like every story ever told. Honesty? I'm not sure what you mean here, but maybe you meant it can't be unbiased or something, which is silly, unless you're watching a documentary.

You can't? What? Can't even tell what you're going off about in this third paragraph, honestly.

I mean if there's any confusion about who's a bigot and who has a genuine concern it's probably the fault of the people saying things like "people are gay? agenda!" and shit like that. You certainly didn't make it any more clear to me what about the game is so offensive or what this spooky agenda entails.

You know how actors in Hollywood start buying into their own hype and think that they are the messengers for the people, so they start pushing extreme messages while patting themselves on the back?

I think that's what media creators are going through. This Neil Druckman guy thinks he's in a position of great power and must use great responsibility. He thinks he's a messenger for the youth and it's his duty to educate the gaming masses about the same malformed ideas other mind virus victims pushed onto him. And he'll pat himself on the back, and the sycophants around him will pat his back as well (after asking for consent first!).

It's not that some of this stuff is inherently wrong or has no place in gaming or anything like that. It's just that you can see right through why all of this is being pushed. It wasn't just some creative decision-making, it really started with, "How can I force some obscure representation into this project so I can be a good Ally™." And that shit is annoying and pandering.

Being gay is obscure representation? Also, the newest trailer shows nothing relating to the relationship, it could just be that YOU guys are making it into a bigger plot element than it is and the game actually isn't 100% about it, I dunno, it's possible.

If you think that that's the reason why people are MAD (not actually "oFfEnDeD") then you are even more hilarious, and hysterical on top of that.

That's all you apologists are doing, saying that it's because "muh gay characters", what a silly thing to say. There's more to social justice than cringey LGBT apologists.

How could someone think people are mad about their being gays, right? It's not like there's multiple threads full of it.

Okay? What is this argument, exactly?

Probably because nobody has an actual issue with Ellie's relationship, but the feminist nonsense. We all knew she was gay in Left Behind and they accepted it then. In TWD, people didn't complain about the romances because most people don't care about romances but actual political opinions being shoved down our throats, especially incorrect ones at that.

It's like if somebody in a game cried about the "wage gap", of course people would get upset, because it's a stupid concept. Now they want to make their females burly like men.

I'll hold you to that.

Clear I see what you're saying and I absolutely agree. Some Gamer Gaters really did use that movement for their own agendas and most did want more ethical journalist integrity.

Some are crying about the LGBT romances, but to be fair, some apologists just want to make assumptions and include people like me in those groups, even though my issue isn't with LGBT romances at all but PDA in a video game in general (it serves no purpose, period), feminism, etc.

Druckmann can do what he wants, but it's his decisions that are shaping up how his game is received and he honestly should expect that to happen if he feels so strongly about his ignorant beliefs. He's the one boiling it down to simply be about "muh homophobia" because he's that much of a disingenuous human being, just like Anita.

LOL, yes they do. What part of it is feminist nonsense? They did? I just heard there were multiple threads made complaining about Left Behind's kiss. Man, I don't even know what people say about TWD any more so I'll take your word for it?

Do you mean an entire game based on the idea of the wage gap or just a random moment? I have trouble believing no game has ever had a single iota of commentary on the "wage gap". While I agree the "wage gap" is a fairy tale, burly women do exist on occasion.

You can't have characters suffering from patent ductus arteriosus in video games?

Some of the things shaping up how the game is received is leaks that he never intended you to see out of context or in that form, so no it's not entirely his fault. Which of his beliefs are ignorant? That lesbians exist? That some women can get buff? Did he boil it down? Or did he simply say homophobes aren't welcome?

If you really didn't you wouldn't try to contribute to the topic of discussion, how dare I assume that you'd jump on the game's defense?

Ah the old, you must care because you engaged with us in this discussion fallacy. Sorry, man, some of us have boring fucking lives and arguing about stupid shit gets us through the day.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

(you not liking the fate of a character or a very sad depressing story even does not mean that the story sucks or the game is badly written)

feel like by ignoring very legitimate criticism, you are entirely shooting your argument in the face. there is nothing wrong with people wanting old characters to have a good ending or to not have their hours of investment in the story discarded for something else. that's what is happening here.

as for the "people hate gays" takes. i don't really see that. i mean, she was in the last game, she was gay, and that game was a massive hit. if there has been any backlash to the first game, due to Ellie being LGBT, i didn't see it. like at all! that's kind of impressive.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

feel like by ignoring very legitimate criticism, you are entirely shooting your argument in the face. there is nothing wrong with people wanting old characters to have a good ending or to not have their hours of investment in the story discarded for something else. that's what is happening here.

as for the "people hate gays" takes. i don't really see that. i mean, she was in the last game, she was gay, and that game was a massive hit. if there has been any backlash to the first game, due to Ellie being LGBT, i didn't see it. like at all! that's kind of impressive.

According to a poster upthread there were multiple threads complaining about this here. That said if it's true what you and some others say that that received no backlash maybe it's because you had to actually play it to see it happen, whereas Ellie kissing Dina was in a trailer, meaning plenty of people who never even planned to play the game are going to hop on the bandwagon of attacking it for featuring gay people. Clearly anyone who enjoyed the build-up and pay-off of Ellie's gay kiss in Left Behind is the sort of person happy to see her be kissed/loved again by someone she cares about, after all, right?

 

[NickFire]

feel like by ignoring very legitimate criticism, you are entirely shooting your argument in the face. there is nothing wrong with people wanting old characters to have a good ending or to not have their hours of investment in the story discarded for something else. that's what is happening here.

as for the "people hate gays" takes. i don't really see that. i mean, she was in the last game, she was gay, and that game was a massive hit. if there has been any backlash to the first game, due to Ellie being LGBT, i didn't see it. like at all! that's kind of impressive.

The people who say or believe that MOST of the criticism relates to Ellie's sexuality are grasping at low hanging fruit, either in bad faith or because of confirmation bias. As you said, it has been known who Ellie is attracted to for years, and most people loved the first one and were excited for the second.

The issue is incredibly simple. A lot of people don't like certain rumored character treatments, and a lot of people don't want anything to do with a certain ideology whose followers all but declared culture and employ-ability war on anyone who dares criticize parts of the ideology. When those two dislikes combine - poof, you get the current backlash.

Frankly, if the backlash was not hoped for as a marketing ploy, they should have been able to predict it was coming with 100% accuracy after the audiences reaction to a handful of games, movies and commercials these past few years.

 

[Panajev2001a]

feel like by ignoring very legitimate criticism, you are entirely shooting your argument in the face. there is nothing wrong with people wanting old characters to have a good ending or to not have their hours of investment in the story discarded for something else. that's what is happening here.

There is nothing wrong is being unhappy with where the story arrives, but it does not make it a bad story or for bad writing. It does not make you a gay hater or a monster, you are entitled to refuse a story that you do not enjoy, but that is not necessarily a story badly written.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

The people who say or believe that MOST of the criticism relates to Ellie's sexuality are grasping at low hanging fruit, either in bad faith or because of confirmation bias. As you said, it has been known who Ellie is attracted to for years, and most people loved the first one and were excited for the second.

The issue is incredibly simple. A lot of people don't like certain rumored character treatments, and a lot of people don't want anything to do with a certain ideology whose followers all but declared culture and employ-ability war on anyone who dares criticize parts of the ideology. When those two dislikes combine - poof, you get the current backlash.

Frankly, if the backlash was not hoped for as a marketing ploy, they should have been able to predict it was coming with 100% accuracy after the audiences reaction to a handful of games, movies and commercials these past few years.

Doesn't sound simple, you can't even really tell us what the issue is in this thread it's so beyond simple!

Most the backlash is due to leaks, so how would they have hoped for it?

 

[NickFire]

Doesn't sound simple, you can't even really tell us what the issue is in this thread it's so beyond simple!

Most the backlash is due to leaks, so how would they have hoped for it?

Sorry if something so simple sounds complicated to you. If you genuinely dispute what I wrote I challenge you to take it and apply it to EA / Battlefield, Disney / Last Jedi, etc. Same basic approach by IP holders and same basic audience reaction. If that doesn't start to reveal a pattern that made this brew ha predictable, then I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

Sorry if something so simple sounds complicated to you. If you genuinely dispute what I wrote I challenge you to take it and apply it to EA / Battlefield, Disney / Last Jedi, etc. Same basic approach by IP holders and same basic audience reaction. If that doesn't start to reveal a pattern that made this brew ha predictable, then I don't know what to tell you.

Okay... Battlefield V is a failure, it's totally dead at the moment. The Last Jedi was a huge success, not just theatrically, not just with critics but also on video. The two are not analogous, if TLOU II is a success on TLJ's level they have nothing to worry about. Also again, you're talking about a backlash mostly fueled by LEAKS not by the marketing.

 

[NickFire]

Okay... Battlefield V is a failure, it's totally dead at the moment. The Last Jedi was a huge success, not just theatrically, not just with critics but also on video. The two are not analogous, if TLOU II is a success on TLJ's level they have nothing to worry about. Also again, you're talking about a backlash mostly fueled by LEAKS not by the marketing.

I'm just talking about poorly perceived character treatments (in eyes of large groups of existing fans) which appear driven by a certain agenda. When those two perceptions collide, poof - massive audience backlash.

As an aside, the Last Jedi made money and got critical reception, but the audience reaction was not very good and there was a huge backlash. So much so that they resurrected the emperor, claimed Star Wars had become over saturated (LOL coming from owner of Marvel), and cancelled planned movies.