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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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FeiRR

Banned
You're right with the point that you have shareholders and they must be kept happy (AKA with full pockets), but I don't think any company worth their salt will ever ignore a competitor, no matter how small a market share they have.

Especially that in this market, Microsoft IS their direct competitor, any way you look at it. I don't think, for one second, that shareholder meeting ignores Xbox just because they have less than half the market.

At least the company I work for (Swiss pharma) we NEVER ignore competitors, even if they're small; if they're small enough, they will be swallowed. If not, you keep two eyes open when you sleep.
That's why I wrote "too much". Of course I understand that they are a direct competitor and have to be taken into consideration. That's also why I hope Sony will do something with their limited PS Now availability because it pisses me off to be a second-grade customer, whether I'll use their services or not. I also understand that console pricing partially depends on that. But as far as people suggest that their roadmaps or schedules are constructed as jerk-response to Microsoft, I simply don't believe it, at all.

That profiler is another good explanation of power profiles, Sonys solution is not technically JUST smart shift, that technology is changing power every 2 ms, 2 ms is fast enough you can change 8 times in a frame and there is plenty of scope.
Adjusting power profile every 2 ms... Technology has gone very far, at least in electronics. But we still have shitty batteries in everything.
 

ToadMan

Member
I don't think it can be higher, I'm sure Mark said 7GB would be near to saturating the PCI Express link. From a quick google, PCI Express 4.0 has 2GB/sec per lane, so 2*4=8 tops.

I took it to to mean the sustained access rather than the peak transfer rate. The way he described off the shelf SSDs as not meeting their stated perofrmance - seemed like he wasn't hopeful a 7gb/s drive would even sustain 5.5Gb/s...
 
Microsoft uses apis(like DirectStorage) to help mitigate(but not eliminate) certain I/O bottlenecks. But the thing is, an api acts as an interface (a middle man) between the hardware and the OS(plus it's applications) and there's only so much you could do with an api before you eventually hit a brick wall and are unable to move forward. Microsoft can bring the world's forefront algorithm experts and software engineers and even after writing tens of thousands of lines of code, they still wouldn't be able to do what dedicated hardware(like the I/O block) can do on its own.

That's like telling me that if you take an RTX 2080TI and reprogram it to perform only matrix operations and complex floating point operations to do cryptocurrency mining exclusively it would be able to have the same speed and efficiency in mining as a dedicated ASIC(application specific integrated circuit) like the antminer S9 which was purpose built for that specific workload, it doesn't really work that way, at all. Microsoft made a big fuzz about their ssd until Sony broke their silence and ever since it has turned into nothing more than a d!¢k measuring contest where one goes "hey i have this piece of hardware that was purpose built for that job and the other goes, but mine is also pretty fast).

If Microsoft wants to convince gamers that the Xbox series X is using more than just fancy buzzwords for its hardware, then they'll have to stop taking fancy terms and slamming imaginary multipliers (like the 2-3x multiplier of sfs) next to them that to me sounds like tales from the corporate butthole and borders on astroturfing. The series X has a decompression block, that's it. That decompression block is, according to Microsoft, capable of handling more than 6GB/s at its peak. That 6GB/s is where you draw the line, it's your bottleneck and your inherent limit and no matter how hard you code, you won't be able to bypass and circumvent that limit no matter how much black magic you use.

So, no, SFS won't give you 9.6 or 14.4GB/s when you utilise it because you'll then be going over the limit of the decompression block and you just can't do that, some people think that Microsoft managed to do what sony did with the I/O block, by countering it with software and APIs that according to tales from a fanboy's ass can defy the laws of physics and engineering when that couldn't be any further from the truth. You can't get with software what dedicated specialised hardware gives you and that's a fact and you certainly can't emulate lanes and priority levels through software no matter how hard you try. If Microsoft wants attention, stop with the fancy buzzwords and show the games, only then will they convince people and do what fancy terms could absolutely never do.

Remark(May 25th 2020): Made some slight changes by splitting the post into 4 sections to make it easier to read.
Yes. Very true. And only researching this it becomes more evident the PS5 io has destroyed bottleneck demons.
 
ED1zMOz.jpg


36iPzOZ.jpg

This is what Cerny has been trying to do for years.
 

Thirty7ven

Banned
For $1.99




In desperate need of a thesaurus.

That profiler is another good explanation of power profiles, Sonys solution is not technically JUST smart shift, that technology is changing power every 2 ms, 2 ms is fast enough you can change 8 times in a frame and there is plenty of scope.

Road to PS5 Cerny talk will age like fine wine if true. Where did you get that from?
 
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geordiemp

Member
In desperate need of a thesaurus.



Road to PS5 Cerny talk will age like fine wine if true. Where did you get that from?

Mixture of Cerny and AMD smartshift already given so using the smartshift, 2ms granularity and 2 % / 10 % cerny comments (which he said in a very measured way)

The rest is just my interpretation of that information (Opinion) and how that would work in practice...my reasonable understanding of how chips work (semiconductor) - but I dont have any specfic info on ps5.

So even if say there are 1 in 100 tasks or jobs that spike power, your loosing 0.1 to 0.2 TF for 2 ms part frame every now and again in spike commands and gaining almost 1 TF for general use (2 to 2,23 GHz).

Its genius if this is exactly how it plays.....The clever part is engineering and recognising which sets of jobs create power spikes and designing around it -smart shift is just switching power quickly, its the logic that goes into when to do it and concept that is very clever.
 
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Thirty7ven

Banned
Mixture of Cerny and AMD smartshift already given so using the smartshift, 2ms granularity and 2 % / 10 % cerny comments (which he said in a very measured way)

The rest is just my interpretation of that information (Opinion) and how that would work in practice...my reasonable understanding of how chips work (semiconductor) - but I dont have any specfic info on ps5.

So even if say there are 1 in 100 tasks or jobs that spike power, your loosing 0.1 to 0.2 TF for 2 ms part frame every now and again in spike commands and gaining almost 1 TF for general use (2 to 2,23 GHz).

Its genius if this is exactly how it plays.....The clever part is engineering and recognising which sets of jobs create power spikes and designing around it - that is not smart shift., just good engineering

Explains why Cerny was visibly happy talking about it. I wonder how the guy felt after the video came out, as I get the impression he was talking about it as some sort of breakthrough for console design, yet it was received as some sort of compromise and half baked attempt at covering distance with the competition.
 

Bo_Hazem

Banned
Does anyone remember (was it a patent) that Sony mentioned ages ago about swapping out textures on the fly for old games and replacing them with higher quality ones? Now that we've seen the Unreal 5 engine demo and resolution was just something nobody give two thoughts about (it looks 4K!), what if Sony's backward compatible solution kept the games at 1080p30 (or whatever resolution they play at) but just swapped in new 8K textures? The games would get an immediate facelift and look higher resolution than they really are.

That's really interesting, never seen it or heard about it. Would be great indeed to easily remaster them. But modders on PC usually do that, don't they?

You will use 7GB/s SSDs on PS5 after launch and it will probably improve performance over the default SSD that come with PS5.

Sony choice for 12 lanes is due to use cheaper NAND modules to reach 5.5GB/s.

All the key custom hardware IO Sony did is inside the APU with the I/O controller, cache, co-IO controllers and de decompression units.

BTW all new 7GB/s M.2 SSD to be released this year (that will be compatible with PS5) uses NVMe protocol version 1.4.


I doubt it'll still be less capable than PS5's SSD, and it'll need more work from the i/o to overcome its defeciencies as Cerny said we are comparing apples vs oranges:

Timestamped: Listen until 23:39




It's pretty clear that for game design that 2 priority level is still problematic, at least for 1st party games.
 
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xacto

Member
Explains why Cerny was visibly happy talking about it. I wonder how the guy felt after the video came out, as I get the impression he was talking about it as some sort of breakthrough for console design, yet it was received as some sort of compromise and half baked attempt at covering distance with the competition.

I don't think Cerny lost too much sleep just because Era, or GAF or some titty-twister Twitter randos, or desperate I-wanna-be-monetized YouTubers didn't exactly get what he talked about.

That whole presentation wasn't even aimed at us (well, at me in particular, I had to read a lot, listen to more informed people than me to realize what was even going on) - so I don't think he took it personally at any level. He knew what he and his engineers had done; the "for the players" presentation is not even shown yet (well, UE5 touched upon that some), that's where June presentation comes into play.

So yes, I believe he was visibly happy presenting their breakthrough with their console, and he stayed happy even after every Dick, Mary, and Jane started making a lot of white noise; we were NOT prepared for it.
 

geordiemp

Member
Explains why Cerny was visibly happy talking about it. I wonder how the guy felt after the video came out, as I get the impression he was talking about it as some sort of breakthrough for console design, yet it was received as some sort of compromise and half baked attempt at covering distance with the competition.

I understood it straight away and tried explaining concerned posters at the time to think in terms of clocks and nanoseconds, but most non hardware posters think in absolute terms (Sith) its hard work.

When you can downclock by logic rather than thermal heat, your PID control becomes much more responsive and immediate than Thermal downclocking as thermal effects will be orders of magitude latent / extremely slow and arguably a bit too late (bolting horse).

I bet XSX could comfortably sit at 2Ghz for 99% of its workload, I think this will change how clocking is done (if its not a Sony patented version as its using smart shift very differently)

Efficiency engineering is very interesting and takes more finesse than throwing power or "make it bigger mindset" at a problem.
 
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Thirty7ven

Banned
I don't think Cerny lost too much sleep just because Era, or GAF or some titty-twister Twitter randos, or desperate I-wanna-be-monetized YouTubers didn't exactly get what he talked about.

Talking more about an overall narrative that spreads through media journalists themselves.

Obviously enthusiasts on social media desperately want to believe that building a console is like building a PC, and they also could build a console because it's so easy you just go on PickYourParts and you create one. Hell the elephant in the room really is why Cerny has a job at all!? You could get the intern from LinusTube to build you a PS5!


I understood it straight away and tried explaining concerned posters at the time to think in terms of clocks and nanoseconds, but most non hardware posters think in absolute terms (Sith) its hard work.

When you can downclock by logic rather than thermal heat, your PID control becomes much more responsive and immediate than Thermal downclocking as thermal effects will be orders of magitude latent / extremely slow and arguably a bit too late (bolting horse).

I bet XSX could comfortably sit at 2Ghz for 99% of its workload, I think this will change how clocking is done (if its not a Sony patented version as its using smart shift very differently)

Efficiency engineering is very interesting and takes more finesse than throwing power or "make it bigger mindset" at a problem.

It's very interesting. As it be should honestly.
 
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ArcaneNLSC

Member
I am all for Sony and all... but hell, this guy has some serious anger management issues.


I can understand that I know his delivery can be full on. I have a pretty weird sense of humor and thought the intro part was funny and I know a few of us in this forum have posted a couple of his recent videos because of that humor aspect for a bit of light hearted fun it was never to take so seriously lie a technical breakdown video.
 

xacto

Member
Talking more about an overall narrative that spreads through media journalists themselves.

Obviously enthusiasts on social media desperately want to believe that building a console is like building a PC, and they also could build a console because it's so easy you just go on PickYourParts and you create one. Hell the elephant in the room really is why Cerny has a job at all!? You could get the intern from LinusTube to build you a PS5!

Hell... you got me triggered here with the "tech journalists" yet again; does ANYONE at all vets these people anyway? Or every freelancer can take a swig of their favorite spirit and write themselves away into oblivion? I mean, wouldn't you think they need to have at least SOME background before they're even allowed to write, let alone publish?

Maybe some of the people in this forum could shed some light, if they're in this business, because to my (I admit) untrained eye it seems that a lot of this self-styled tech journalists have no idea what they're writing about but they keep at it anyway.

So how does this even work?
 

xacto

Member
I can understand that I know his delivery can be full on. I have a pretty weird sense of humor and thought the intro part was funny and I know a few of us in this forum have posted a couple of his recent videos because of that humor aspect for a bit of light hearted fun it was never to take so seriously lie a technical breakdown video.

I haven't gone to church lately myself, but I think the humor part started to wear off after 5 minutes or so... and he kept going, and going... like the Energizer bunny 😂
 

Bo_Hazem

Banned
Obviously Playstation has a brand and fanbase advantage, but Sony can absolutely drop the ball. Marketing isn't for nerds, it's for everyone else. Nerds will know all about these consoles before they release.

There are a ton of factors that go into it. One of them is just a person plainly walking into a store and seeing those console stands, and one of them will just pique their interest. Based on looks alone.

I do agree, and honestly I just dismiss anyone who debates this, Sony exclusives can't be compared to MS ones overall, they just can't. But Sony can fuck it up, because they aren't exactly growing their output from what I can tell. Quite the opposite, and adding Insomniac to WWS was cool and all but these studios are taking four to five years to release games? What the fuck man. Really becomes a case where if you get two or three flops in a row it becomes pretty grim.

Interesting take, but PlayStation and Nintendo are already paying tons of money way higher than Xbox Divison in terms of advertisement. Sony is still paying a lot for PS4 ads right now, Xbox has abandoned current gen, something people tend to overlook.

When PS5 gets its advertisement in UEFA Champions League before/after launch during matches and TV ads, a long-time partner of the most watched sport event in the world since 1997, most of Europe, Asia, Africa, South America, and Mexico in NA will get high exposure and awareness of PS5.

That's the advertisement side. Now, the new capabilities of PS5 will open a new chapter of game design for PS first party and exclusive 3rd party games. While it took 5-7 years for first party games to come out, now it should be way shorter and better. With assistance from Quixel Megascans and Sony Pictures massive cinema texture/asset library, and the capability of PS5 to use Hollywood-level, uncompressed 8K assets directly for quick testing before optimization on UE5 and most likely PS first party engines, that cycle should be cut in half, at least.

We're not just talking about faster game development cycles, but new abilities and horizons to explore with its unprecedented architecture.
 
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Thirty7ven

Banned
Hell... you got me triggered here with the "tech journalists" yet again; does ANYONE at all vets these people anyway? Or every freelancer can take a swig of their favorite spirit and write themselves away into oblivion? I mean, wouldn't you think they need to have at least SOME background before they're even allowed to write, let alone publish?

Maybe some of the people in this forum could shed some light, if they're in this business, because to my (I admit) untrained eye it seems that a lot of this self-styled tech journalists have no idea what they're writing about but they keep at it anyway.

So how does this even work?

As far as my eye can see, the majority consists of hobbyists who got themselves a journalism degree and had no writing or reporting skills to work for major news publishers.

You don't actually need to know much about the tech, usually editors are more interested in narratives anyway and there's hardly any narrative in the tech itself unless you dig deep into the process which admittedly almost nobody in the industry does. It's a bit like boxing, or combat sports if you will, hardly anybody working in the narrative driven industry around it knows much about the actual thing. To misquote the words of David Mamet in the wonderful Redbelt, "If there's no drama then it's just two monkeys in a ring.".
 

xacto

Member
As far as my eye can see, the majority consists of hobbyists who got themselves a journalism degree and had no writing or reporting skills to work for major news publishers.

You don't actually need to know much about the tech, usually editors are more interested in narratives anyway and there's hardly any narrative in the tech itself unless you dig deep into the process which admittedly almost nobody in the industry does. It's a bit like boxing, or combat sports if you will, hardly anybody working in the narrative driven industry around it knows much about the actual thing. To misquote the words of David Mamet in the wonderful Redbelt, "If there's no drama then it's just two monkeys in a ring.".

So it's more like writing for Daily Planet than for a tech news outlet.

But hey, drama sells while the dry numbers will fly above many people's heads. Got it.
 

Vaztu

Member
It's pretty clear that for game design that 2 priority level is still problematic, at least for 1st party games.

I dont think its problematic per say. Yes its 2 priority levels, but Cerny specifically says the I/O unit in APU will handle the extra work provided the SSD speed is greater than 5.5GB/s (Cerny estimates).




That whole presentation wasn't even aimed at us

Yeah even though it wasn't aimed at us, I do think Sony had that it mind before marketing it on social media. If they just posted the specs, people would not have understood Cerny's (and Sony's) vision for the PS5. We would have straight up compared specs with XSX and not even think for a second about the SSD & IO improvements.

That GDC video turned into a persuasion, of sort, to gamers about PS5's vision. And a lot of PS4 fans were willing to trust that vision even though it wasn't clear what it was.

Months later and after UE5 tech demo, people are more confident going into June.
 

Bo_Hazem

Banned
I dont think its problematic per say. Yes its 2 priority levels, but Cerny specifically says the I/O unit in APU will handle the extra work provided the SSD speed is greater than 5.5GB/s (Cerny estimates).






Yeah even though it wasn't aimed at us, I do think Sony had that it mind before marketing it on social media. If they just posted the specs, people would not have understood Cerny's (and Sony's) vision for the PS5. We would have straight up compared specs with XSX and not even think for a second about the SSD & IO improvements.

That GDC video turned into a persuasion, of sort, to gamers about PS5's vision. And a lot of PS4 fans were willing to trust that vision even though it wasn't clear what it was.

Months later and after UE5 tech demo, people are more confident going into June.


Indeed, and that what I mentioned in that post as well:

I doubt it'll still be less capable than PS5's SSD, and it'll need more work from the i/o to overcome its defeciencies as Cerny said we are comparing apples vs oranges.

The GDC presentation turned out to be way better and transparent than Xbox's casual reveal that got praised at the time. The more we go forward, the more that GDC video from Cerny gets realized.
 
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So the new narrative is that the PS5 SSD cuts development time in half? Is there anything that bloody SSD can't do?

I wouldn't say half. But it could be possible that some of the custom hardware will do some of the work for developers. Things they they used to do themselves are now handled automatically by the hardware. Thus the possibility of reducing development time. No idea how much time it will reduce though.
 

TBiddy

Member
I wouldn't say half. But it could be possible that some of the custom hardware will do some of the work for developers. Things they they used to do themselves are now handled automatically by the hardware. Thus the possibility of reducing development time. No idea how much time it will reduce though.

Games will become more complicated because of the SSDs. At least that is what many people preach here on Gaf - you know, the whole ability to create whatever worlds you want etc.

I think development times will be as long as they are now.
 

xacto

Member
Yeah even though it wasn't aimed at us, I do think Sony had that it mind before marketing it on social media. If they just posted the specs, people would not have understood Cerny's (and Sony's) vision for the PS5. We would have straight up compared specs with XSX and not even think for a second about the SSD & IO improvements.

That GDC video turned into a persuasion, of sort, to gamers about PS5's vision. And a lot of PS4 fans were willing to trust that vision even though it wasn't clear what it was.

Months later and after UE5 tech demo, people are more confident going into June.

I get where you're coming from, but even with Cerny's presentation a LOT of people still didn't get what was being said, therefore some of us still have this pointless back-and-forth between the two consoles.

For many, it was "game over" when the TF count didn't match their wild dreams - and this is where I need to specify that no matter what insiders or "insiders" told us, it's not their fault. As I've said it before, unless you hear the news straight from the source, be it Sony and/or Microsoft, the rest is pure speculation and maybe some wet dreams.

But I do agree, the GDC set up the stage much better than a dry spec sheet in a PowerPoint slide.
 

Thirty7ven

Banned
So the new narrative is that the PS5 SSD cuts development time in half? Is there anything that bloody SSD can't do?

It's not just PS5, so no need to get your panties in a twist.

If for example level designers don't have to spend half their time working around corners, it stands to reason they can use their time for either more content or a shorter development cycle.

It's going to be great for small developers. Big studios will probably just use time saved for something else.


Help run games in native 4K and 60fps?
Before I get reported, I'm only joking


It's always the same joke though. Get creative brother, we all want to laugh. With you.
 
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So the new narrative is that the PS5 SSD cuts development time in half? Is there anything that bloody SSD can't do?

Not sure where the narrative originated, but definitely not in half, in principle however devs will no longer be forced to create and incorporate elements which are only there to hide loading, no? And so it may well be reduce dev time.
 
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Thirty7ven

Banned
No twisting here. It's just a stupid argument.

Actually a stupid argument is that hardware doesn't have an impact on game development.

And if you want to quote Bo_Hazem you can do it, instead of attributing his comments to others.

Small developers will absolutely be able to create a game like Dear Esther in a shorter amount of time. Yes. Unless they want to be more ambitious but that's their choice.
 
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mitchman

Gold Member
I wouldn't say half. But it could be possible that some of the custom hardware will do some of the work for developers. Things they they used to do themselves are now handled automatically by the hardware. Thus the possibility of reducing development time. No idea how much time it will reduce though.
The savings can be significant. Not having to split up the textures into 5 LOD levels, add it to whatever IDE is being used, not having to carefully manage the model complexity per level/room/lod level, not having to add all kinds of tricks to async load resources in the background (corridors, elevators) etc saves a lot of time. Most of this job is boring, time consuming and takes creativity out of a supposedly creative job.
This time can either be used to make the game better or shorten the development time.
 

TBiddy

Member
What argument? You were literally the first person here to bring up SSD cutting dev time in half? I never heard that before.

See below.

While it took 5-7 years for first party games to come out, now it should be way shorter and better. With assistance from Quixel Megascans and Sony Pictures massive cinema texture/asset library, and the capability of PS5 to use Hollywood-level, uncompressed 8K assets directly for quick testing before optimization on UE5 and most likely PS first party engines, that cycle should be cut in half, at least.

We're not just talking about faster game development cycles, b
ut new abilities and horizons to explore with its unprecedented architecture.
 

ToadMan

Member
Obviously Playstation has a brand and fanbase advantage, but Sony can absolutely drop the ball. Marketing isn't for nerds, it's for everyone else. Nerds will know all about these consoles before they release.

There are a ton of factors that go into it. One of them is just a person plainly walking into a store and seeing those console stands, and one of them will just pique their interest. Based on looks alone.

I do agree, and honestly I just dismiss anyone who debates this, Sony exclusives can't be compared to MS ones overall, they just can't. But Sony can fuck it up, because they aren't exactly growing their output from what I can tell. Quite the opposite, and adding Insomniac to WWS was cool and all but these studios are taking four to five years to release games? What the fuck man. Really becomes a case where if you get two or three flops in a row it becomes pretty grim.

I just meant marketing SSD tech - absolutely marketing games is something Sony are very good at.

But I am disappointed at the studios Sony has canned. I mean this coming gen was made for a new Wipeout or Motorstorm type game, even a Twisted Metal. Fast action and detailed graphics in open environments would really have shown the possibilities of the SSD tech to change game design. But Sony closed Evolution and Liverpool and doesn't seem to be doing anything with those IPs which were much loved.

Same with Driveclub ... so now we're stuck waiting for Polyphony to find a way to get a 240Hz physics model running... They'll probably have a demo ready a couple of years after PS6 has launched.

I don't know if I can understand Sony's decisions on that, but MS did the same at the end of the 360 gen. Now they've started picking up studios again perhaps it will wake up Sony too.
 
So the new narrative is that the PS5 SSD cuts development time in half? Is there anything that bloody SSD can't do?
You were literally the first person here to bring up SSD cutting dev time in half?


I'm glad that Coulomb_Barrier Coulomb_Barrier caught that.

It's also the first time that I'm seeing this claim. Could you please tell us where you saw it? I would really love to read the source and find out how he came to that conclusion. Even better if it's a legit source like a developer.

Edit: Nevermind I just saw your source. That's only one individual can be hardly classified as a new narrative. Once I see many people start saying the same thing I will treat it as such.

Take Tim Dog for example. He says alot of BS but that doesn't mean the BS he says can be attributed to a trend if it's only him saying it.
 
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TBiddy

Member
I'm glad that Coulomb_Barrier Coulomb_Barrier caught that.

It's also the first time that I'm seeing this claim. Could you please tell us where you saw it? I would really love to read the source and find out how he came to that conclusion. Even better if it's a legit source like a developer.

Edit: Nevermind I just saw your source. That's only one individual can be hardly classified as a new narrative. Once I see many people start saying the same thing I will treat it as such.

Take Tim Dog for example. He says alot of BS but that doesn't mean the BS he says can be attributed to a trend if it's only him saying it.

I'll freely admit that "narrative" was pushing it, but it's how it starts. Some random person posts some well-articulated absolute nonsense, and before you know it, it catches on. It's all about nipping it in the butt, before people actually believe that stuff.
 

Shmunter

Member
Indeed, and that what I mentioned in that post as well:

I doubt it'll still be less capable than PS5's SSD, and it'll need more work from the i/o to overcome its defeciencies as Cerny said we are comparing apples vs oranges.

The GDC presentation turned out to be way better and transparent than Xbox's casual reveal that got praised at the time. The more we go forward, the more that GDC video from Cerny gets realized.
It was dense. Packed with low level info. Took a number of viewings to chew it for proper digestion.
 
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