Lethal01
Member
I'm happy they are aiming for native 4k specifically because it gives them an easier way to implement 60fps modes.
that said I wouldn't mind som 1440p 30fps games that look as good as the unreal demo.
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I am completely confused now on what looks "next gen" and what not.
- Thread starter Stiflers Mom
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I'm happy they are aiming for native 4k specifically because it gives them an easier way to implement 60fps modes.
that said I wouldn't mind som 1440p 30fps games that look as good as the unreal demo.
alabtrosMyster
Banned
In short:
- Graphics resolution has not raised (we already have 4k and fauxK)
- There are not more colors (ee have HDR)
- We already have physics (PBR) based material
- Etc.
- Higher resolution/more precise shadows
- Better global illumination (especially for dynamic objects)
- More diverse and dynamic worlds in open world titles (that retain very high details)
JordanN
Banned
It's misleading because the previous chart wasn't actually utilizing the additional polys in a more efficient or realistic manner (i.e adding surface detail) it was just smoothing over an already round mesh.
Unless you have an artstyle that doesn't actually aim for photorealism (like Wind Waker that you cropped out from my post) then adding 10x more geometry isn't necessarily diminishing returns. In fact, do the math and it was actually 250x more geometry I added to get a better looking brick wall and not the more blob-like one on the left.
Edit: And even that Brick Wall is still on the "low end". There are games where the Artists modeled much higher detailed meshes before being forced to make a more real-time friendly one. Like Ryse and its characters started off with 130 million polygons but the in game one uses a fraction of it.
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Vasto
Member
Here is another example of next gen. In the Halo Infinite trailer it is an in engine cinematic trailer but what stand out is how fluid the motion is at 60FPS. You need this on a good 4K display to really see that this level of motion which is a result of the Series X's processing has never been achieved before in any game ever.
RetroAV
Member
If next month's trailer is not a downgrade from what was shown in this trailer, I agree.
Great Hair
Banned
OutrageousFacts
Banned
What makes this look good is the good artdesign. Btw. can we all agree that glowing eyes need to stop in realistic-looking fantasy-games? It makes it LESS intimidating :/
SleepDoctor
Banned
I'm so glad I get to experience Demon Souls for the first time like this.
Great Hair
Banned
Watch the original one. IT´s way more goofy especially with those teeth than the remake
Think they did a fantastic job (artistically, technically, two modes even).
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SleepDoctor
Banned
Watch the original one. IT´s way more goofy especially with those teeth than the remake
Think they did a fantastic job (artistically, technically, two modes even).
Nothing ruined the immersion more for me than the blue or red glowing plwyers who joined your game. I hated when they did it to Bloodborne.
Gaming Discussion
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D.Final
Banned
Graphics matter, but pause the screen, zoom in 400% to see the difference via digital foundry.
Yeah
Definitely
Caio
Member
The main point is that developers need time to take full advantage of any new hardware and its features. If you look at The Last of Us Part II and you compare it with the Games announced 5 months before PS4 release, you immediately realize how much graphics, IQ, animations, etc have improved since 7 years ago. And it's not even the full story. MS released in Nov 2017 the XBox One X, which almost look "next gen" compared to the base XBox One, with a GPU 4.3 times faster than the one into the base Model, and a much much faster Ram. We all have in our eyes the sculpted images of Games like The Last of Us Part II on PS4 Pro and Red Dead Redemption 2 on XBox One X, which are the best looking games of this generation, and running on the mid gen upgrade models. So, what happens when we look at the very early development cycle of the initial games on the Next Gen base models ? It happens that we don't see a mindblowing difference in the Graphics department and gameplay mechanics, it's obvious, and I'm not surprised. True Next Gen takes time, it is physiological, and there is always what I call a transition time.
So, what was my reaction when I saw again the 4K trailers of the best PS5 games ? I saw a glimpse of what Next Gen will be, sure superior graphics and IQ, things that are already not possible on current gen, but of course the best has yet to come, and mark my words, it will blow us away. XSX and PS5 will shine
Vasto
Member
This looks next gen. Looks better than Ratchet And Clank and also looks better than Horizon.
Varteras
Gold Member
Differences in visual quality that are immediately perceptible are going to become more and more difficult to notice the closer we get to photorealism. The quality of visuals in the foreground are going to take longer to get significant improvements. Though we'll still see big improvements in things we frequently take for granted like accurately rendering hair. It will be in other areas that the differences between next gen and current gen will be more apparent.
There should be far fewer instances of level design that intentionally limit our vision so that assets can be loaded in out of our sight or forcing us to sit through loading screens. The image quality of objects in the distance should be much improved. The number of objects and effects on screen at one time should be higher. Graphical effects that were too taxing on current gen hardware without being reduced in quality or left out completely should now be common and in better quality. One example being reflections. A larger number of animations allowing for more intricate and varied movements will be more likely.
Only the most graphically savvy studios will take such great advantage of the new hardware early on to provide us with visuals that will be stunning compared to anything we had this generation from top to bottom. Guerrilla is usually one that pushes the hardware. Though I'm going to reserve judgement on Horizon 2 until we see footage that is definitely gameplay and not in-engine cutscenes. Naughty Dog, Santa Monica, and 343i are other first-party studios that have proven themselves to be highly adept at showing us what the hardware can do. You wanna see what these machines can really do? Those are your best bets for now.
Not a "generational leap" but a definite step up. Dark Souls 3's background detail is less defined, blurry even, compared to the Demon's Souls remake. The foreground environment detail is also cleaner and more natural looking than Dark Souls 3, as is the overall lighting. There are clear instances of aliasing even in the character model of Dark Souls 3 whereas one would struggle to find them in Demon's Souls. Only at the edge of the sword is any aliasing apparent. Though at the end of the day, still shots only tell part of the story. A big part, but only part. We're gonna have to see actual Demon's Souls gameplay footage to see how it holds up.
There should be far fewer instances of level design that intentionally limit our vision so that assets can be loaded in out of our sight or forcing us to sit through loading screens. The image quality of objects in the distance should be much improved. The number of objects and effects on screen at one time should be higher. Graphical effects that were too taxing on current gen hardware without being reduced in quality or left out completely should now be common and in better quality. One example being reflections. A larger number of animations allowing for more intricate and varied movements will be more likely.
Only the most graphically savvy studios will take such great advantage of the new hardware early on to provide us with visuals that will be stunning compared to anything we had this generation from top to bottom. Guerrilla is usually one that pushes the hardware. Though I'm going to reserve judgement on Horizon 2 until we see footage that is definitely gameplay and not in-engine cutscenes. Naughty Dog, Santa Monica, and 343i are other first-party studios that have proven themselves to be highly adept at showing us what the hardware can do. You wanna see what these machines can really do? Those are your best bets for now.
Demon Souls looks great:
But not generationally better than Dark Souls III:
Not a "generational leap" but a definite step up. Dark Souls 3's background detail is less defined, blurry even, compared to the Demon's Souls remake. The foreground environment detail is also cleaner and more natural looking than Dark Souls 3, as is the overall lighting. There are clear instances of aliasing even in the character model of Dark Souls 3 whereas one would struggle to find them in Demon's Souls. Only at the edge of the sword is any aliasing apparent. Though at the end of the day, still shots only tell part of the story. A big part, but only part. We're gonna have to see actual Demon's Souls gameplay footage to see how it holds up.
Mister Wolf
Gold Member
Demon Souls looks great:
But not generationally better than Dark Souls III:
I think many would prefer this remaster having Dark Souls 3 fidelity if it meant a native 4K 60fps.
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
What I said was that if you take a game that runs at 1440p 30fps on 2080 class hardware it might struggle to reach 4k 60fps on a 2080ti. The 2080ti simply doesn't have enough headroom to allow for it.
trancefreak64
Member
Yup, The Trailers blew my Mind in 4k with HDR. Ratchet and Clank looks really impressive to me with all of its endless streaming and moving parts. I am hyped.
sol_bad
Member
I wish people would stop talking about this diminishing returns crap. When you compare the end of generation to the start, there is always a leap in quality.
Do people really think Naughty Dogs final game on the PS5 will look like TLOU2? No it will look like a game designed for the PS6, with whatever graphical improvements you can imagine. Which you can't imagine because 7 or 8 years ago one could imagine what TLOU2 would look like.
Do people really think Naughty Dogs final game on the PS5 will look like TLOU2? No it will look like a game designed for the PS6, with whatever graphical improvements you can imagine. Which you can't imagine because 7 or 8 years ago one could imagine what TLOU2 would look like.
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I also wish people would stop stressing how there hasn't been a 'Killzone Shadow Fall' moment of hype.
Probably true, but that section with the flyover of the city was an unusually dramatic and beautiful scene. The rest of that gameplay trailer was nowhere near as impressive; I remember watching it back then multiple times and feeling a bit underwhelmed.
I honestly think, on average, what's been shown so far for PS5 is at least as big a jump as the early footage of PS4 games.
Probably true, but that section with the flyover of the city was an unusually dramatic and beautiful scene. The rest of that gameplay trailer was nowhere near as impressive; I remember watching it back then multiple times and feeling a bit underwhelmed.
I honestly think, on average, what's been shown so far for PS5 is at least as big a jump as the early footage of PS4 games.
VFXVeteran
Banned
Explosive Zombie
Banned
Man, that's impressive for tech that costs over 1,000 dollars, really good stuff.
VFXVeteran
Banned
Well, we've had the 2080Ti for 2yrs now. It'll last the entire next-gen of 7yrs.. that's pretty good investment and an early headstart waiting for the consoles to catch up..
Explosive Zombie
Banned
This gen that just went by was 7 years long, though, so the PS5 or Series X is still the smarter investment, especially since most people don't SIMPLY need the GPU to be at their level.
Mister Wolf
Gold Member
Today's 2080ti is tomorrow's 3070.
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Explosive Zombie
Banned
A 1070 still goes for 300 bucks, I love PC gaming but we need to let go of this idea that it's more cost-effective.
VFXVeteran
Banned
The PS4/Xbox generation was wonky. Good visuals but not enough performance. We don't know how much the PS5/XSX will cost either. And if people double dip for any mid-gen cycles (if it even happens), then things start stacking up pretty quickly on the money side. Besides, if people are only going to use their PCs for just games, then yea, they might as well get a console for sure. I'll be able to sell my 2080Ti at high price and buy the 3080Ti at half price so it won't be THAT expensive.
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Mister Wolf
Gold Member
Not saying it cost effective but comparing consoles you cant even buy to cards that's out now when there will be new cards from AMD and Nvidia releasing either before or at the same time as these consoles is silly. But I get it, it sounds nicer to compare it to these cards now instead of saying the PS5 will be equal or inferior to an entry level RTX 3060.
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Explosive Zombie
Banned
You keep arguing this like the only part necessary to compete with the consoles is a GPU when we know that's not true. I certainly couldn't just slap a new GPU in my PC and be fine, and that sucks for me because until this fall I'll have had no problems running new games at High settings but I KNOW the leap will be too much for me. I bought my PC in 2013, upgraded the GPU in 2016... so I feel like I had a decent investment, heck it made nauseous to try and play some games on PS4, even on Pro, like Destiny 2. Maybe that was seeing their PC counterpart and the comparison just ruined me but man I couldn't handle it. That said I'm assuming for next gen I'll need to do things like add more RAM, new card, get a real SSD (my current one small, mostly just play older games off it), and I'm on an I7 3770K so I need to upgrade that... it just ends up being a whole new PC for me despite the fact that I've gone up till now with new games performing better than their console counterparts. I could list all my specs for you if you wish but you'll see for sure it's beyond true that the safer investment for me, assuming I don't fall backwards into mountains of cash... is a console in the fall.
sol_bad
Member
I highly doubt that a 2080Ti is going to run games at 4k/30 for the next 7 years. I'd love to be proven wrong but a GFX card at the start of a generation never last the whole 7-8 years. NEVER.
Stiflers Mom
Banned
Why does every From software game look like Bloodborne now?Demon Souls looks great:
But not generationally better than Dark Souls III:
FranXico
Member
The Demon's Souls remake is made by Bluepoint, but they are indeed aping the Bloodborne atmosphere somewhat.
supernova8
Banned
I honestly wonder how many of the games revealed were really making use of the SSD to the max. If they weren't then we aren't going to see any gigantic improvement in visuals, especially if they're targeting native 4K60.
If you can settle for 1440p upscaled at 30fps then I reckon we can get some absolutely gorgeous games.
If you can settle for 1440p upscaled at 30fps then I reckon we can get some absolutely gorgeous games.
sobaka770
Banned
1. I look for particles and volumetric light/fog effects first. Those are computationally difficult and will change gen-on-gen. They are also easiest to notice especially in the new R&C compared to PS4 version as well as H:FW - those effects around the Elephant-robot are not possible on current hardware and in my opinion are easy to spot.
2. I look for easy examples of ray tracing. Ray traced shadows - I don't care much. However ray-traced reflections especially in windows and mirrors while a minor detail are really easy to spot. I'd love to play through games where windows in bathrooms aren't magically all smashed or blurred by dirt.
3. Fast loading and LoD increase without sacrificing mobility. This is the hardest one but here's how I see it: GoW and TLOU2 look phenomenal as-is. However they do it with major tech sacrifices and a hundred million dollars worth of technology extracting the last ounce of power out of PS4. The games are slow-paced, usually with limited FoV making sure they have enough time to stream all the data in and out. The set-pieces are highly curated and allow little to no camera movement.
Next gen is about having same quality of assets made possible for a lot more mid-range games and without necessarily loading for hours into each room or passing through a wall passage. (Some might say that H:ZD and DS look great and are open world but they also have major tech sacrifices - DS is a barren static wasteland most of the time while H:ZD has almost no interactivity as well.)
PS. On those DS/DS3 shots it's easy to see - texture resolution is improved, background texture LoD is much higher, object variety and density is much higher, blur is higher quality etc.
2. I look for easy examples of ray tracing. Ray traced shadows - I don't care much. However ray-traced reflections especially in windows and mirrors while a minor detail are really easy to spot. I'd love to play through games where windows in bathrooms aren't magically all smashed or blurred by dirt.
3. Fast loading and LoD increase without sacrificing mobility. This is the hardest one but here's how I see it: GoW and TLOU2 look phenomenal as-is. However they do it with major tech sacrifices and a hundred million dollars worth of technology extracting the last ounce of power out of PS4. The games are slow-paced, usually with limited FoV making sure they have enough time to stream all the data in and out. The set-pieces are highly curated and allow little to no camera movement.
Next gen is about having same quality of assets made possible for a lot more mid-range games and without necessarily loading for hours into each room or passing through a wall passage. (Some might say that H:ZD and DS look great and are open world but they also have major tech sacrifices - DS is a barren static wasteland most of the time while H:ZD has almost no interactivity as well.)
PS. On those DS/DS3 shots it's easy to see - texture resolution is improved, background texture LoD is much higher, object variety and density is much higher, blur is higher quality etc.
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Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
People want to get into PC to get significantly higher framerates and settings not to game at 30~fps. You're also forgetting a mid gen console refresh will likely have 20-24Tflops, and allow for solid 60fps 4k.
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Explosive Zombie
Banned
There never even was any daylight in Bloodborne, c'mon now.
Inuteu
Member
pre-rendered fake trailers or not, it was a WOW. thats my point
nowdays we just sleep in most game presentations
with the exception of Unreal Engine 5, witch is not even a real game
AV
We ain't outta here in ten minutes, we won't need no rocket to fly through space
Quoting myself to reinforce the point about generations being dead. Look at the little Xbox logo from the end of the new Crash 4 trailer.
This is probably old news at this point and I've just missed it, but this is what I'm talking about. Xbox is now just Xbox, but with big asterisk. It's the equivalent of "can my PC run it?", but distilled to a point where people who avoid PCs for that reason can avoid it. 2 (probably soon to be 3 or even 4) levels of hardware. Games will be "on Xbox" but if they're too new, certain models won't make that tiny list to the right.
VFXVeteran
Banned
I have an i7 6800k that I bought several years ago.
Most games will be GPU limited at 4k so it is what it is. If you need an upgrade to play 4k/30FPS at Ultra, you'll need it now for today's games. I don't think that the next gen games will be more complicated graphics-wise other than RTX.
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VFXVeteran
Banned
We may not get a mid-gen refresh. Also, the hardware spec for a mid-gen refresh will not be dramatically different than what you are getting in November. They aren't going to change their entire architecture mid-gen so stop reaching for the sky. Cost will also factor in. The consoles simply will not be keeping pace with the PC hardware. Accept that.
D.Final
Banned
Quoting myself to reinforce the point about generations being dead. Look at the little Xbox logo from the end of the new Crash 4 trailer.
This is probably old news at this point and I've just missed it, but this is what I'm talking about. Xbox is now just Xbox, but with big asterisk. It's the equivalent of "can my PC run it?", but distilled to a point where people who avoid PCs for that reason can avoid it. 2 (probably soon to be 3 or even 4) levels of hardware. Games will be "on Xbox" but if they're too new, certain models won't make that tiny list to the right.
Good logo
For noticing the platform
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
We may or may not get a mid gen refresh. But your hope that a midgen refresh will be barely faster than this year's consoles seems unlikely to pan out, if there's a refresh. Either there won't be a mid gen refresh as you suggest, or they'll be a notable increase. Ps4 pro has over 2x the Tflops of ps4, xbox one x has about 4x the Tflops as xbox one.
There was a delay in Extreme ultraviolet lithography, handicapping upgrades, but now extreme ultraviolet has arrived and future processor upgrades are expected to arrive on schedule. IF there's a mid gen refresh they'll likely be at least 2x the tflops as this year's consoles.
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Alebrije
Member
It takes time for developers to get better graphic results on every generation, GOW PS4 Pro looks similar to the games showed by Sony. I think we will see better examples of next gen by 2022 but the change from PS4 pro to PS5 wont be similar to the one we got from PS3 to PS4 pro. As some people said the improvements will be at better 4k and maybe 60 fps , better physics and AI.
I personally i am happy with current graphics on games like Good of War , TLOU2, RDR2 or Rage 2 specially if you play these two later games on XboneX.
So if someone wants a big leap on graphics should jump to PC. Consoles are closed systems that deliver good performance at reasonable prices.
I personally i am happy with current graphics on games like Good of War , TLOU2, RDR2 or Rage 2 specially if you play these two later games on XboneX.
So if someone wants a big leap on graphics should jump to PC. Consoles are closed systems that deliver good performance at reasonable prices.
VFXVeteran
Banned
Just because last gen's refresh was double doesn't mean every mid-gen is double. You gotta remember that the PS4 and Xbox came out with extremely underpowered consoles. They was able to leave the same chips in the Pro versions and just overclock. No giant architecture changes.
These chips in the consoles are already at maximum. They could introduce a better chip, but it won't be a 20TFLOP chip. How do you think they would get those paid for when $599 seems too much for people now?
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
Doesn't the pro have double the CUs of ps4?
The refresh if it's coming is 2 or 3 years from now. That's 3nm, more than likely. rtx 4030 will likely release by then with near 3080 performance at around $300, on special probably for $250. Again, I'm not seeing a 30-50% pointless refresh, but a 2+x refresh.
Unless there's a bottleneck on lithography, the technology and cost will be there to allow for it.
