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[Ass of Can Whooping]

Being less powerful is ok though. It's the endless attempts at 10>12 with constant delusion and denial that's the problem.

Lmao what?

 

[J_Gamer.exe]

I'll say it again, slowly this time so perhaps you'll all understand.

Fully. Path. Traced. Rendering.

When sony demonstrates it, let us all know.

So what's more taxing 4k 60 full ray tracing with decent visuals or 1080p 30 path traced with minecraft visuals. Genuine question....

 

[J_Gamer.exe]

Being less powerful is ok though. It's the endless attempts at 10>12 with constant delusion and denial that's the problem.

Theres more to it than just that simplistic number though. Do you accept the potential of cache scrubbers for better CU occupancy? Of faster clocks for some other benefits?

 

[SatansReverence]

So what's more taxing 4k 60 full ray tracing with decent visuals or 1080p 30 path traced with minecraft visuals. Genuine question....

Do you understand the difference in rendering requirements between 1080p30 and 2160p60p?

 

[roops67]

.

Sorry totally off topic. Archie Bunker right?

 

[bitbydeath]

So I guess we're back to this brute forcing bullshit narrative

It’s no narrative.
Can Xbox switch content in and out every second or does it rely on pre-loading?

Obviously if it relies on pre-loading (which it does) then it requires more brute force.

 

[Nikana]

It’s no narrative.
Can Xbox switch content in and out every second or does it rely on pre-loading?

Obviously if it relies on pre-loading (which it does) then it requires more brute force.

 

[SatansReverence]

It’s no narrative.
Can Xbox switch content in and out every second or does it rely on pre-loading?

Obviously if it relies on pre-loading (which it does) then it requires more brute force.

A: There are loads of things for us to still explore in the new hardware but I’m most intrigued to see what we can do with the new SSD drive and the hardware decompression capabilities in the Xbox Velocity Architecture.

The drive is so fast that I can load data mid-frame, use it, consume it, unload and replace it with something else in the middle of a frame, treating GPU memory like a virtual disk. How much texture data can I now load?

I’m looking forward to pushing this as far as I can to see what kind of beautiful experiences we can deliver.

I love exciting new hardware that changes the face of videogame development and that’s exactly what Series X is. I’m looking forward to where we’re all going to go from here!

 

[Nikana]

BEAT YOU. SUCK ITTTTTTTTT. I AM THE RED RANGER.

 

[SatansReverence]

Too fast for me

 

[sonomamashine]

You’re guessing from the brute force angle. The numbers don’t tell everything and we know PS5 is faster which means it can stream more content and since it is switching content in and out every second it won’t rely on the GPU as much as Xbox.

Bottom line is they’re not comparable in how they operate to draw a straight line.

Stop the "brute force" nonsense.

So I guess we're back to this brute forcing bullshit narrative

Xbox "Brute force" is equivalent to ps5 "9tf" which is banable on Gaf.

 

[bitbydeath]

Hopefully we’ll see it in action in two weeks.

 

[SatansReverence]

Theres more to it than just that simplistic number though. Do you accept the potential of cache scrubbers for better CU occupancy? Of faster clocks for some other benefits?

These for the most part merely offset the non linear performance gains of very high clocks. They don't create magic performance out of nothing.

 

[Nikana]

Hopefully we’ll see it in action in two weeks.

What's that have to do with your comment? The XSX doesn't "preload" as you claim.

 

[sonomamashine]

It’s no narrative.
Can Xbox switch content in and out every second or does it rely on pre-loading?

Obviously if it relies on pre-loading (which it does) then it requires more brute force.

Still on the "brute force" i see.

 

[SatansReverence]

What's that have to do with your comment? The XSX doesn't "preload" as you claim.

Or that it's brute forcing anything.

 

[PaintTinJr]

We will find out when DF head to head analysis appear. We haven't seen anything really running on XSX yet other than a few cross gen AA games. We have seen PS5 exclusives by 1st party devs.

XSX should have advantages in resolution,framerates, ray tracing(significantly more CU's)etc...while PS5 games will probably load 1-2 seconds faster.

Given the demo Epic showed - and it being 2 algorithms running on async compute with minimal use of conventional graphics pipeline- and the platform it was on, and the following text from the AMD RDNA whitepaper page 3

https://www.amd.com/system/files/documents/rdna-whitepaper.pdf

AMD’s TeraScale was designed for the era of programmable graphics ....

The Graphics Core Next (GCN) architecture moved to a more programmable interleaved vector compute model and introduced asynchronous computing, enabling traditional graphics and general-compute to work together efficiently.

... Looking to the future, the challenge for the next era of graphics is to shift away from the conventional graphics pipeline and its limitations to a compute-first world where the only limit on visual effects is the imagination of developers.

And then when we consider that the two high profile games xbox showcased (Halo & minecraft RT) are games that rely on conventional graphics pipeline features for all the heavy rendering.

What we have seen from Xbox so far (IMHO) isn't showing anything "looking to the future" of RDNA or even fully embracing the old GCN "programmable interleaved" solution.

With neither console stating how many asynchronous compute engines(ACE) are in their GPUs, and we still don't know how big the 36 CU chip is, other than a change of lithography from PS4 GCN, along with a comment from Cerny regarding the CUs being equivalent in transistor count to 58 PS4 CUs (so @2.23Ghz that's 16.5TF/s in GCN flops).

So when the PS5 chip size is revealed and the final specs of the APUs are confirmed, it is very possible that the PS5 APU will be as big as the XsX APU if it has used significantly more of its die-space for additional ACEs; pushing more towards the "compute-first world" that RDNA is seeking to reach.

It seems like a double issue on the xbox side IMO, they only had two ACEs on the X1, and four ACEs on the X1X, so developer use will have been proportional to the resource available - compared to eight ACEs on PS4/Pro - so a big increase in ACEs on XsX would seem less complimentary for their existing developers and make a scenario of XsX having more than sixteen unlikely (IMO) - with eight being the most likely count.

On PS5, just doubling to sixteen wouldn't seem to match their ambitions for CPU and GPU compute convergence, but equally 32 ACEs seems too much, if only leaving 4 CUs for the conventional graphics pipelines .

In RDNA1 flops the PS5 is around three PS4 Pro's, so I'm going to speculate that the PS5 has 24 ACEs (3x8) and if that did turn out to be the setup, the most powerful console GPU would shfit depending on whether a game heavily used conventional pipeline rendering or compute-first world rendering like the UE5 demo.

 

[J_Gamer.exe]

XSX has a nearly a 2TF power advantage. Significantly more CU's, that according to devs, gives XSX about a 40% advantage in Ray Tracing capabilities.

Nobody is saying the XSX is significantly more powerful. Just stating a fact. It is more powerful and resolutions,framerates,ray tracing should be better on XSX. I think most would prefer those advantages over a 1-2 second faster loading time.

A TF advantage its unlikely to be able to get a real world gap like that. Again look st the resolutions and framrate so far announced and the ps5 clock advantages and cache scrubbers meaning real world performance is closer. Most devs have said that.

RT should be ahead but I'd be very surprised if its 40% given ps5 can bounce less Ray's more potentially.

And you keep ignoring the streaming advantages, lod no pop in and less parked ram. Why?

 

[Imtjnotu]

I'll say it again, slowly this time so perhaps you'll all understand.

Fully. Path. Traced. Rendering.

When sony demonstrates it, let us all know.

How can they when they don't have rdna 2 and RT hardware.

 

[bitbydeath]

What's that have to do with your comment? The XSX doesn't "preload" as you claim.

I concede, I was proven wrong on that point.
The point was loading and how much can be loaded in at once means the GPU is further freed up.

That’s how PS5 could display 8K textures, without this ability it wouldn’t be possible.

 

[SatansReverence]

How can they when they don't have rdna 2 and RT hardware.

What?

Are you making this claim or are you trying to say someone else is making this claim?

 

[3liteDragon]

XSX has a nearly a 2TF power advantage. Significantly more CU's, that according to devs, gives XSX about a 40% advantage in Ray Tracing capabilities.

Nobody is saying the XSX is significantly more powerful. Just stating a fact. It is more powerful and resolutions,framerates,ray tracing should be better on XSX. I think most would prefer those advantages over a 1-2 second faster loading time.

Yes, so powerful in fact that everything other than MC ray-traced they showed so far was on PC or in-engine. VERY POWERFUL.

 

[bitbydeath]

Still on the "brute force" i see.

It’s a valid argument when addressing power vs speed. What would you call it?

 

[Nikana]

I concede, I was proven wrong on that point.
The point was loading and how much can be loaded in at once means the GPU is further freed up.

That’s how PS5 could display 8K textures, without this ability it wouldn’t be possible.

I'm sorry but...fucking what?

 

[Crimson_Fate]

What's that have to do with your comment? The XSX doesn't "preload" as you claim.

I have no doubt that the XSX can load and use data directly from its SSD. The only problem is that the PS5 can load and use 2.5x more data so while the PS5 has you flying through the city on a Jet the XSX would need to take a taxie.

If XSX wants to have a jet it would need to preload more data in memory, limit the size if the area or use other tricks to make it look similar (like this gen) . This is brute force....

 

[J_Gamer.exe]

These for the most part merely offset the non linear performance gains of very high clocks. They don't create magic performance out of nothing.

Seems your not willing to give any thought to the matter.

The variable clocks as explained with code never fully utilising CPU/GPU will run at max most the time with probably small ms drops.

Cu occupancy could be huge, matt hargrett seems to suggest so and cache scrubbers should assist in this.

The xbox will be more difficult to keep each CU occupied with meaningful work. If they are not all working it will not be getting near its max TF.

Devs have said the gap isn't as big in real world performance and as I said to the other guy look at games announced.

The proof is in the pudding. Not a single game runs at a higher resolution or framrate so far. Why is that?

 

[Imtjnotu]

What?

Are you making this claim or are you trying to say someone else is making this claim?

Oh my bad I was just trolling like you were. My bad I didn't put the sarcasm spoiler tag

 

[Nikana]

I have no doubt that the XSX can load and use data directly from its SSD. The only problem is that the PS5 can load load and use 2.5x more data so while the PS5 has you flying through the city on a Jet the XSX would need to take a taxie.

If XSX wants to have a jet it would need to preload more data in memory, limit the size if the area or use other tricks to make it look similar (like this gen) . This is brute force....

Except games arent designed that way. This magical scenario where flying through a city with take sooooo much longer on Xbox is FUD. Show me a game where this is a real scenario.

Besides, even with a faster loading/caching into ram, you are still limited by other factors. The SSD doesn't magically make up for the rest of the system.

 

[bitbydeath]

I'm sorry but...fucking what?

I concede, I was proven wrong on that point.
The point was loading and how much can be loaded in at once means the GPU is further freed up.

That’s how PS5 could display 8K textures, without this ability it wouldn’t be possible.

 

[Nikana]

I concede, I was proven wrong on that point.
The point was loading and how much can be loaded in at once means the GPU is further freed up.

That’s how PS5 could display 8K textures, without this ability it wouldn’t be possible.

Repeating your... insane (?) statement doesn't make it more true.

 

[Xplainin]

You are really embarrassing yourself with your ignorance

Stunning rebuttal.

 

[SatansReverence]

This is brute force....

okay.gif

 

[Crimson_Fate]

Except games arent designed that way. This magical scenario where flying through a city with take sooooo much longer on Xbox is FUD. Show me a game where this is a real scenario.

Besides, even with a faster loading/caching into ram, you are still limited by other factors. The SSD doesn't magically make up for the rest of the system.

Exactly!! You can only render what you can load . The XSX must load everything into memory to even have the an advantage. relying on loading important assets from the SSD for the XSX brings it to its knees.. So they will stream assets from SSD but the bulk of the Data will be loaded at all times for the area ahead.

 

[SatansReverence]

The xbox will be more difficult to keep each CU occupied with meaningful work. If they are not all working it will not be getting near its max TF.

Its hilarious seeing people claim this knowing how easy it is to keep a gpu at 100% utilisation.

 

[Nikana]

Exactly!! You can only render what you can load . The XSX must load everything into memory to even have the an advantage. relying on loading important assets from the SSD for the XSX brings it to its knees.. So they will stream assets from SSD but the bulk of the Data will be loaded at all times for the area ahead.

No it doesn't.

 

[bitbydeath]

Repeating your... insane (?) statement doesn't make it more true.

What part don’t you agree with?

 

[Crimson_Fate]

No it doesn't.

I'll see your "No it doesn't" and raise you a "Yes it does" .. do I win now ..


Seriously.... The point being that the XSX can never stream the same quality of assets better the the PS5. The XSX has a Processing advantage of 17% but it has a streaming disadvantage of 250% .

The XSX advantages at this point are on paper. We will never see them on cross platform games and I am doutfull we will ever see a 1st party studio take the XSX to the levels possible.
Having an advantage is one thing, capitalizing on it is another.

 

[J_Gamer.exe]

Do you understand the difference in rendering requirements between 1080p30 and 2160p60p?

Not sure what this has to do with what I asked... or how it helps your argument by showing how much more taxing 4k60 is to 1080p30.

We know RT is taxing so I was surprised to see that game going for 4k60 full RT.

So if you can answer...

'So what's more taxing 4k 60 full ray tracing with decent visuals or 1080p 30 path traced with minecraft visuals. Genuine question....'

 

[Nikana]

I'll see your "No it doesn't" and raise you a "Yes it does" .. do I win now ..

Provide receipts that things can't be loaded mid frame.

 

[SatansReverence]

Oh my bad I was just trolling like you were. My bad I didn't put the sarcasm spoiler tag

Oh, so another one rushing in to twist a post to construct a fanciful straw man and proceeding to attack it like someone spat on their mother.

 

[Neo Blaster]

I call Mod of War , aren't you watching everything happening in this thread for the last two days since those guys were unbanned? Console warring has grown ten fold.

 

[Nikana]

What part don’t you agree with?

I legitimately dont know what you are trying to say. Because it sounds like you are saying the ps5 supports 8K textures, which textures aren't really measured in resolutions to begin with, because of an SSD?

 

[Xplainin]

You’re guessing from the brute force angle. The numbers don’t tell everything and we know PS5 is faster which means it can stream more content and since it is switching content in and out every second it won’t rely on the GPU as much as Xbox.

Bottom line is they’re not comparable in how they operate to draw a straight line.

Everything, literally everything has to.go through the GPU. There is nothing on the PS5 that means it can bypass the GPU.

 

[bitbydeath]

I legitimately dont know what you are trying to say. Because it sounds like you are saying the ps5 supports 8K textures, which textures aren't really measured in resolutions to begin with, because of an SSD?

The unreal demo and likely Project Athia use 8K textures.

 

[SatansReverence]

Not sure what this has to do with what I asked... or how it helps your argument by showing how much more taxing 4k60 is to 1080p30.

We know RT is taxing so I was surprised to see that game going for 4k60 full RT.

So if you can answer...

'So what's more taxing 4k 60 full ray tracing with decent visuals or 1080p 30 path traced with minecraft visuals. Genuine question....'

I'll take that as a no, you don't understand.

I'll give you a hint. 2160p60 is around 8 times more work than 1080p30.

 

[bitbydeath]

Everything, literally everything has to.go through the GPU. There is nothing on the PS5 that means it can bypass the GPU.

It’s not about bypassing the GPU, it’s about the GPU holding onto less at one time. Hence the cache scrubbers Sony implemented.

 

[Nikana]

The unreal demo and likely Project Athia use 8K textures.

Right...I got that...but what you said was that the GPU is freed up more because of an SSD. Which would mean it's bypassing the GPU. Which is not happening.

 

[Stuart360]

I call Mod of War , aren't you watching everything happening in this thread for the last two days since those guys were unbanned? Console warring has grown ten fold.

Is this a joke?. This thread has been the 'unofficial Sony Thread' for months now, no wonder there hasnt been much warring. Just a reminder, its not the Sony thread, its the nextg gen thread, and anyone can discuss.

 

[bitbydeath]

Right...I got that...but what you said was that the GPU is freed up more because of an SSD. Which would mean it's bypassing the GPU. Which is not happening.

No as explained above it means the data doesn’t need to sit and wait to be used taking up GPU resources.

 

[Crimson_Fate]

Please Define "Things" for me ? I am sure the XSX can load some "Things" , so can the PS4 . Can it stream 8k Textures at 9Gb/s ... No it can't

Provide receipts that things can't be loaded mid frame.