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NXGamer: What went wrong with Halo Infinite & Can it be fixed? | Let's Talk
- Thread starter Jose92
- Start date
pixelation
Member
NXGamer showing DF how it's done.
pixelation
Member
Riiiiight, talk about moving goalposts... everyone can remember all the talk going around about how "Pfft!... XBO won't hold back next gen doofus!!!, scalability baby!!!"
diffusionx
Gold Member
I didn't watch the whole video, but I don't know why they're pushing this 120fps thing for Halo. For Doom, yes. For racing games, yes. But for Halo? It's just unnecessary.
Halo 4, Halo 2 Anniversary, and Halo 5 all look great on the One X, and they run at 60fps and are relatively old games at this point. I refuse to believe that the existence of the One version is why this game may be graphically deficient.
Halo 4, Halo 2 Anniversary, and Halo 5 all look great on the One X, and they run at 60fps and are relatively old games at this point. I refuse to believe that the existence of the One version is why this game may be graphically deficient.
93xfan
Banned
this. my big take away was that he was saying many games were not 4K native on PS5, but in a clumsy way. Is that really controversial when everyone keeps saying Xbox will get a slight resolution bump and not much more? And yes, I know plenty of launch games are 4K native on PS5.
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alstrike
Member
Don't argue with him, believe me it's for the best.
MasterCornholio
Member
He made it seem alot worse than it was.
Look, we all pretty much accept the differences between the systems. I know the Xbox Series X GPU is more powerful and can push resolution and framerate more.
But the way he made it sound initially was that the PS5 was going to be a 1080P console with broken multiplats.
After he changed his message several times we found out what he was trying to say.
However what many didn't like was that he was supporting the console wars with this information. He could have released it before but he waited until things were "one sided". Then he just dumped that on us.
The main reason why I'm doubting his credibility was because he said he knew the MSRP for both systems. I honestly don't know how he knows that information for both systems since it's a really closely guarded secret. And since he said he dropped information to participate in the console wars I have serious doubts if it's even true.
93xfan
Banned
I didn’t know he said that. Was it the targeted price, or the final price, because those are very different claims?
MasterCornholio
Member
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MrFunSocks
Banned
Anyone saying that the Xbox One is "holding back Halo Infinite" instantly shows that they don't know what they're talking about.
Halo Infinite is an Xbox One game. The Series X plays Xbox One games thanks to having backwards compatibility. Therefor Halo Infinite plays on the Series X, but is not a Series X game.
The Xbox One is holding back Halo Infinite on the Series X in the same way that it's holding back Cyberpunk 2077 on the Series X - it's not. It's a current generation game that will work by default on the Series X, and will then get a Series X patch to add Series X features.
NXGamer acknowledges that it is an Xbox One game........but then says that's what's holding back the Series X version of the game. There is no series x version of the game! There is a Xbox One version, that's it.
Halo Infinite is an Xbox One game. The Series X plays Xbox One games thanks to having backwards compatibility. Therefor Halo Infinite plays on the Series X, but is not a Series X game.
The Xbox One is holding back Halo Infinite on the Series X in the same way that it's holding back Cyberpunk 2077 on the Series X - it's not. It's a current generation game that will work by default on the Series X, and will then get a Series X patch to add Series X features.
NXGamer acknowledges that it is an Xbox One game........but then says that's what's holding back the Series X version of the game. There is no series x version of the game! There is a Xbox One version, that's it.
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itsjustJEFF
Member
Does anyone know what NXGamers background is, cause he just spit out a bunch stuff that I had never heard before and the post above just said that NXGamer doesn't know what he's talking about. So, WTF is going on?
This wait is making me questions stuff. We got posters/videos making Definitive statements and shit, not even saying "possibly" "Maybe" "could be" they just saying it like it's facts.
This wait is making me questions stuff. We got posters/videos making Definitive statements and shit, not even saying "possibly" "Maybe" "could be" they just saying it like it's facts.
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RetroRibosome
Member
It’s Halo.
Nothing can change that it’s the same tired, increasingly irrelevant franchise that should have been out pasture years ago now entering its fourth console generation.
Let Master Chief rest and move on.
Nothing can change that it’s the same tired, increasingly irrelevant franchise that should have been out pasture years ago now entering its fourth console generation.
Let Master Chief rest and move on.
ZehDon
Gold Member
I'm not sure of his background, but it's safe to say he's making the same assumptions as everyone else, so his comments are just as valid as everyone else.
However, I do think he's off the mark in a few places. For example, technical debt - I'm not necessarily sure we're seeing the effects of that here. Halo 5 made conscious decisions about what features to use and not use - which he describes accurately. Those decisions were made to prioritise the frame rate above all else. However, Halo Infinite has made similar decisions to achieve it's frame-rate. That's not technical debt, that's just frame budgets and engineering. Technical debt occurs when you're blocked or restricted via technical decisions made previously that now, either in hindsight or due to changing circumstances, were effectively the wrong decisions to make. You're paying for the sins of what's come before you, so to speak.
To get more specific, you accumulate technical debt every time you put off fixing or improving something. Every time a coder has to introduce a hack or workaround, or an artist has to make a series of compromises, you're technical debt increases. As far as I can tell, Infinite isn't hampered by technical debt - they're not paying for decisions Halo 5 made. Rather, they just made the same artistic and engineering decisions (60FPS on all platforms, open world, dynamic time of time, base Xbox One as target) and we're just seeing the result of that. They were quite capable of making different decisions, they elected not to. That's not technical debt.
Now, the cynic in me says a few YouTubers have used this phrase because it was dropped in those negative 343i GlassDoor reviews, and it sounds like you know what you're talking about, so they go in on it.
However, his comments on image based lighting is generally pretty accurate. So, take from the video what you will.
nowhat
Member
Then why doesn't it look even like that?
small_law
Member
If I had to guess, and this is purely speculation, 343 wanted a more simplistic, Fornite-esque look to the game. I mean, the kids love Fornite and backwards compatibility is a must, so from a management perspective, it's a win-win.
The problem is, once again, 343 does not fundamentally understand what made the Bungie Halo games great. They went for a particular look, one that isn't very Halo, and didn't pull it off. The lack of explosion effect transparencies was the thing that really got me. Five years after Halo 5 and they show something on par with a 4K mod for Quake 2? Just crazy.
And when did having an exclusive for your brand-new console become a bad idea? I get the "smart delivery" concept, but why not make Halo Infinite completely exclusive to the Series X, if for any reason, just to move units. Hold out this one, special game out as an example of what your new tech can do. Why tether it to the product line that set the entire Xbox brand back so much? It doesn't make sense.
The problem is, once again, 343 does not fundamentally understand what made the Bungie Halo games great. They went for a particular look, one that isn't very Halo, and didn't pull it off. The lack of explosion effect transparencies was the thing that really got me. Five years after Halo 5 and they show something on par with a 4K mod for Quake 2? Just crazy.
And when did having an exclusive for your brand-new console become a bad idea? I get the "smart delivery" concept, but why not make Halo Infinite completely exclusive to the Series X, if for any reason, just to move units. Hold out this one, special game out as an example of what your new tech can do. Why tether it to the product line that set the entire Xbox brand back so much? It doesn't make sense.
MrFunSocks
Banned
It looked like a 60fps open world XB1 game. Got any other 60fps open world XB1 games to compare it to?
Because it has been in development as an XB1 game for 5 years, not as a Series X game.
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Mister Wolf
Gold Member
They should make it 30fps on the old consoles and implement better lighting along with reworking some character/weapon models and textures.
MasterCornholio
Member
And add some animations to the trees and grass. I know it doesn't seem like much but it helps the world feel more alive.
HawarMiran
Banned
Make it 60 FPS and "fake" 4K. Problem solved. With fake 4K I mean the DLSS 2.0 equivalent the next-gen consoles will surely have
DarkMage619
$MSFT
They should delay the game and improve the visuals. Oh wait...
small_law
Member
Then they needed to keep that bun in the oven until they had something to take advantage of the new console. Because that's where they are right now anyway. A lot of games start development for one generation of console and end up being released for the subsequent generation of console. In the past few years, nobody at Microsoft told 343 "hey we have this new box we're working on, make your game for that instead of the old one that crippled our brand"?
Vroadstar
Member
A game that was 5 years in the making, front and centered in MS last event which proved to be a dud and because of the delay everything will be solved, just need to turn on the RT switch noh? Hope springs eternal
Aladin
Member
Is the greatest graphics only way to get a 85+ metacritic rating or good reviews ? Being a halo fan, I am quite indifferent to criticism of its graphics.
Instead of wasting time and resources by delaying an already made game, just spend that money on other studios for some other IP.
Instead of wasting time and resources by delaying an already made game, just spend that money on other studios for some other IP.
MrFunSocks
Banned
And miss out on selling it to an established 50 million userbase? That's one way to get even worse press, and then even more when it releases and doesn't sell 5 million since there aren't even 2 million consoles sold.
CesarNsnake
Neo Member
Wow! could this guy be more of a Sony shill?
I already got the vibes for him being a Sony Fanboy since his PS5 Tech video where he justifies its weak points, but this is a new low, even for him
I already got the vibes for him being a Sony Fanboy since his PS5 Tech video where he justifies its weak points, but this is a new low, even for him
DarkMage619
$MSFT
It's unlikely to get worse. Why not quote Shigeru Myiamoto about delayed games being good bad games are bad forever.
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Azurro
Banned
I know you are a silly, silly Xbox fanboy, but this is ridiculous. Halo: Craig is running natively on the Xbox One Series X, this is the Series X version, it's not running on some compatibility mode.
FranXico
Member
It looks like a 360 game. Most Xbox One games (including Halo 5) look much better than this.
eastwood333
Banned
Very good/informative video. I agree with 343 reducing the Xbox One version to 30fps. 60fps just eats up too many resources elsewhere. There is a reason why Sony 1st party games target 30fps as well. And target 60fps on the XB1X/XSX.
Also agree that the Slip Engine just isn't very scalable. The game was clearly developed with Xbox One in mind.
Also agree that the Slip Engine just isn't very scalable. The game was clearly developed with Xbox One in mind.
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Geki-D
Banned
Been watching this video series recently about video game (some movie too) fuck ups:
And A LOT of the time, at the start of a gen a move to a new engine (which is the case for infinite) and multiple SKUs (yes, MS in their idiocy have forced this issue onto their first party game by having XB1, XB1S, XSX, PC & if true XSS) tend to be the reason launch games utterly fail.
And A LOT of the time, at the start of a gen a move to a new engine (which is the case for infinite) and multiple SKUs (yes, MS in their idiocy have forced this issue onto their first party game by having XB1, XB1S, XSX, PC & if true XSS) tend to be the reason launch games utterly fail.
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Fixed? Its delayed, not broken. Sounds like hyperbole to me. Is the multiplayer gameplay good? My crystal ball says the same as everyone else.... maybe. If so, its a mega hit. If not, bad grahics can make it go from a flop to a mega flop. Either way, its totally dependant of gameplay which is hard to have a serious opinion about since we know so little about it.
martino
Member
Can you really target 30fps on xos and 60fps on xox with near same cpu doing an open world game ?
cormack12
Gold Member
I still think a lot of the complaints won't be resolved because the art style won't change. You can easily push down HQ assets by patching or making a specific build for Xbox Series X with new exported models etc. All that would take is time and management overhead. But I think if you just take that version out the equation for now and imagine it running on the X1X.
The competition or benchmarks in this area are going be things like:
Far Cry 5
The Division 2
Ghost Recon: Breakpoint
Mad Max
Destiny 2
Just Cause 4
MGS V
RDR 2
I mean you can include stylised open world too like Borderlands 3 if you want, where artstyle is still clean and hi-fi.
I don't think it's as bad as it's made out but I think it feels static, and empty. Like when you go back and revisit older open world games you notice you have wide open spaces with some simple geometrical boxes/shapes, immovable. The A.I. was also very static, there wasn't a lot going on from scene to scene. I tihnk they've gone back to the roots which was right, but took some of the design decisions of the time and replicated them instead of looking at how tighter, more dynamic designs have emerged. There's often more going on in a BF V multiplayer player map than here. It 'looks' like you're just dropped into this big empty space and then just trudge to a little group of enemies that aren't even bothered.
The competition or benchmarks in this area are going be things like:
Far Cry 5
The Division 2
Ghost Recon: Breakpoint
Mad Max
Destiny 2
Just Cause 4
MGS V
RDR 2
I mean you can include stylised open world too like Borderlands 3 if you want, where artstyle is still clean and hi-fi.
I don't think it's as bad as it's made out but I think it feels static, and empty. Like when you go back and revisit older open world games you notice you have wide open spaces with some simple geometrical boxes/shapes, immovable. The A.I. was also very static, there wasn't a lot going on from scene to scene. I tihnk they've gone back to the roots which was right, but took some of the design decisions of the time and replicated them instead of looking at how tighter, more dynamic designs have emerged. There's often more going on in a BF V multiplayer player map than here. It 'looks' like you're just dropped into this big empty space and then just trudge to a little group of enemies that aren't even bothered.
Jigsaah
Gold Member
Oh my bad I thought you were an alt lmao. Names are similar...didn't think much of it haha.Wait... i was just replying to you. I'm not nx gamer...(for someone called jigsaah you didn't put together the pieces very well there
)
From things to add he said post processing and material quality would be 2 area whered he'd spend all time and effort mainly, not sure if that's what you meant....
eastwood333
Banned
NXGamer seems to be implying as much.XB1X's significant gpu overhead can take up a lot of the slack. There are plenty of games that are 30fps on base XB1/PS4 that are 60fps on XB1X/Pro. 343 would have to reallocate cpu's resources to the gpu. I don't know how flexible the slip space engine is, but i'm sure 343 can do it.
Perhaps someone who's more technical can answer this?
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CuNi
Member
I sadly don't think so, but surely hope so myself.
Though pessimistically expecting it to only delay to Q1 2021.
Would love to see this being pushed to Nov 2021 or later and ditching the backwards compatibility.
Hobbygaming
has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
What people are saying is that Halo Infinite should've been designed for the Xbox Series X
Kenpachii
Member
If microsoft wanted high visual quality, they would have opted for 1080p and 30 fps with extreme small boxes as levels with a scripted story tagged along with it and made the game exclusive to xbox series X.
The game was builded for 120 fps, for online play, 4k, competitive scene and to support all there platforms at 60 fps.
U know what game i can run on a 1080ti at exactly that on 4k? battlefield bad company 2. The quality simple is dropping drastically because of it. The game was never designed around the xbox series X. the game was designed to play and focus on the competitive market for all there consoles.
Reducing the 60 fps to 30 fps for the xbox one is utterly stupid just for that reason. It would also mean the xbox series X will get a hit and runs at 30 fps and the 120 fps no longer will be hit at 4k on the xbox series X. Why in the world would u want to do that.
What the game needs is some lightning sources added or raytracing, and some polish because the game clearly was rushed and isn't done yet. The best solution would have been if they made 1 version for the original xbox and 1 version remaster for the xbox series X. However the game isn't even done yet and simple is behind on even the basic version. Which resulted in this reveal.
The game was builded for 120 fps, for online play, 4k, competitive scene and to support all there platforms at 60 fps.
U know what game i can run on a 1080ti at exactly that on 4k? battlefield bad company 2. The quality simple is dropping drastically because of it. The game was never designed around the xbox series X. the game was designed to play and focus on the competitive market for all there consoles.
Reducing the 60 fps to 30 fps for the xbox one is utterly stupid just for that reason. It would also mean the xbox series X will get a hit and runs at 30 fps and the 120 fps no longer will be hit at 4k on the xbox series X. Why in the world would u want to do that.
What the game needs is some lightning sources added or raytracing, and some polish because the game clearly was rushed and isn't done yet. The best solution would have been if they made 1 version for the original xbox and 1 version remaster for the xbox series X. However the game isn't even done yet and simple is behind on even the basic version. Which resulted in this reveal.
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SoraNoKuni
Member
For this game to even look remotely good they have to drop the 120fps nonsense, 60 is plenty.
If they stick to their 120fps no matter how much they try to fix their visuals it will look like crap, top tier nvidia cards struggle to maintain 4k60 these days, and these guys thought that their flagship title should have 120fps, of course IQ will be trash for them to maintain that framerate.
I am pretty sure they will give us an option to run it 4K60 with ray tracing and maybe better textures if they have the assets.
If they stick to their 120fps no matter how much they try to fix their visuals it will look like crap, top tier nvidia cards struggle to maintain 4k60 these days, and these guys thought that their flagship title should have 120fps, of course IQ will be trash for them to maintain that framerate.
I am pretty sure they will give us an option to run it 4K60 with ray tracing and maybe better textures if they have the assets.
EDMIX
Member
Beat me too it.
If they are making a game using the XONE as a base, of course its going to look really dated. XONE X didn't suddenly make their games look like God Of War 2018 or The Last Of Us 2 or anything so I'm not really sure why anyone is shocked that its looks this bad. They made their grave with this all systems crap.
So people need to help me understand how a fucking last generation game looks better then the new Halo.....
Hobbygaming
has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
It's pretty crazy how it looks like there is a generational difference here but for the weaker consoleBeat me too it.
If they are making a game using the XONE as a base, of course its going to look really dated. XONE X didn't suddenly make their games look like God Of War 2018 or The Last Of Us 2 or anything so I'm not really sure why anyone is shocked that its looks this bad. They made their grave with this all systems crap.
So people need to help me understand how a fucking last generation game looks better then the new Halo.....
eastwood333
Banned
How could it be developed for 120fps in mind when the game is clearly developed with XB1 in mind? Game has been in development for 5 years? On PC? Sure.
Xbox One is simply too weak to run a game at 60fps with the kind of open scale that Halo Infinite has. Look at how great Destiny looks at 30fps. Bungies Halo 1-Reach were all 30fps.
I agree with NXGamer. Cut it to 30fps on Xbox One and bump up the overall graphics of the game and up the framerate to 60fps-120fps on XB1X-XSX.
Otherwise have 60fps with Greg trade offs with an static, bland, empty world.
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EDMIX
Member
halo is played out imo
they can delay it a year, but halos gonna halo
Agreed. I don't think there is much hope for the IP at this point. They should have just let 343 do a new IP and let Halo rest. They saw the success of Horizon Zero Dawn from Sony, they should have just let 343 do some new project to bring some fresh faces to XB. Its like, I don't like Halo, Forza, Fable or Gears and it seems like I've had those same games for several generations as reasons to not buy their systems. I do believe they are doing a better job, but I also believe its a bit too late for next gen.
I'm already getting a PS5 and just upgrading my PC next year or the year after.
Someone stated that it should ditch last gen systems and release fall next year, I think its a good idea, but I don't know if its enough time to really rework how dated that game looks. Who knows, but next fall its basically going to get killed by next gen Battlefield 6 and Call Of Duty.
cormack12
Gold Member
That comparison - while it does have a point - isn't really fair. Comparing characters like Elena or Joel from Unchharted games is not the same as an open world. It would be better and more honest to use Jin from GoT or Aloy from Horizon. Just makes it looks you're desperate to score points instead of using like for like comparisons. And even then, photo mode can distort the representation.
CrysisFreak
Banned
Ghost of Tsushima even has moving grass!That comparison - while it does have a point - isn't really fair. Comparing characters like Elena or Joel from Unchharted games is not the same as an open world. It would be better and more honest to use Jin from GoT or Aloy from Horizon. Just makes it looks you're desperate to score points instead of using like for like comparisons. And even then, photo mode can distort the representation.
I know, mindblowing.
HawarMiran
Banned
Doesn't matter. Both are from a cutscene. And the Halo one looks like it has a fake beard tagged on. Even in a cut-scene. Yeah that is pretty bad.That comparison - while it does have a point - isn't really fair. Comparing characters like Elena or Joel from Unchharted games is not the same as an open world. It would be better and more honest to use Jin from GoT or Aloy from Horizon. Just makes it looks you're desperate to score points instead of using like for like comparisons. And even then, photo mode can distort the representation.