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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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FranXico

Member
lol

Well it's an important point.. Between:

- There will be plenty of shared assets between the 2 levels that never need to be loaded/unloaded
- The fact that you don't actually need to load the entire level
- Texture compression
- We are talking max 14GB of RAM for games

Makes it incredibly illogical to assume anything more than a single second is needed on PS5 to switch worlds, at least asset loading wise. There's only ~14GB of total RAM available. Only part of that is used to render the "current view", and some of that is shared assets that don't need re-loaded. The rest is for caching the streaming of the "nearby" assets.

Even if you get super crazy assuming 10GB is needed for the current view (probably isn't).. and even if you get super crazy and assume only 2GB is shared... and let's say only 50% of the data is actually textures, so can be compressed.

That's 8GB of total data needing to be loaded, and 4GB of textures that can be compressed down to 2GB. So 6GB total data... roughly 1 second for the PS5's I/O.

There are very few scenarios outside of having to do intense calculations (procedural generation, simulations that have to be run, etc.) that would ever take a PS5 more than 1 second realistically to load the data needed.
Hey, that's true mate.

In fact, a lot of people are going to be surprised this coming gen when No Man's Sky's portals "only" load a planet at a mere 6x or so faster, instead of the expected 40-100x. Most of the game world is not really loaded from raw assets, but procedurally generated. Which means it's the CPU you're waiting for most of the time, not the IO.
 

Nikana

Go Go Neo Rangers!
I don't have time to go through the last 1000 pages. Can someone tell me what's the next rumored date for any type of Sony presentation/reveal, so I have something to look forward to. Thanks!
Half past your butt. (as input below the 9th is still the rumor)
 
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Dodkrake

Banned
I'm in a meeting right now, but to end the conundrum, the actual loading time for R&C should be the time between lighting changes. If you see the thing open and close, you'll notice there's a very brief lighting change when he jumps in and out of the portal. The time in between is the time it takes to load the new level. RAM keeps whatever assets are shared + game engine + the portal animation.

So the actual load time should be about HALF of the total animation time, if memory serves me right. Anybody care to help?
 

sircaw

Banned
065.gif

I am not upset at all, very far from it in fact. Sorry if i gave that impression but i am far from that,.

There is so much good stuff coming in the following weeks, its going to be magnificent. Saying that, I just don't understand why you guys are focusing so much on trying to be negative about a couple of seconds loading screens, in fact, i don't even know who you are arguing with about it. Do you know?>. i sure don't.


And i love that meme, that day will go down as one of the greatest of all time. And i was there to see it in its full glory. Thanks for the reminder, not seen it in a few days.

 
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Darius87

Member
no ordinary person who don't work at insomniac knows what going under the hood so here straight from the dev no need any video for timing it :
Smith calls the quicker loading times a “paradigm shift" for the next generation. With “Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart,” the game is able to load entire worlds in “less than a second,” Daly said.
less then 1s makes sense would be around 5gb for one world with compression could be around 10gb so from 5gb to 10gb in less then 1 second.
 

Bo_Hazem

Banned
Bo-bro.. that timer was fine.. it was measuring FRAMES that's why it was going to 30 and back to 0.

There was nothing wrong with the timer in the other video, all you had to do was look at it vs. the video time and see that lol

Now this "where does the loading start/stop" concept is debatable of course.. but that timer worked fine.

Ok how the fuck will it measure right if framerates drop to 25-29fps? It's just a shitty measurement. And how can we even know when the timer should start? Yes, it's too fast that we simply don't need to consider it as a loading screen, and it's not, it's a transition, a new type that's exclusive to PS5.
 

FranXico

Member
am i allowed to ask whats HeisenbergFX4 HeisenbergFX4 cred? i always see people asking him for insight, but so far havent seen anything he has "revealed"

not meant as anything other than wondering where he got the reputation from

Mods know him well. He has contacts, but never assumes things or pushes anything as guaranteed.

Just an example:
To me none of these TF numbers matter until we see prices.

To me its sounding like it could come down to something like:

Lockhart 4 Tf for $$299

PS 5 around 10 TF for $399

Nextbox 12 TF for $499.

Prices may vary

This up here, was posted back in last December, I think. And most people didn't notice. Long before Xbox fanboys started using "insider" alt accounts to spread fake 13TF news in order to disappoint people and call them delusional later on.

Unlike most insiders, he mostly posts his opinions and guesses, as such. No pidgeon shit.
 
I am not upset at all, very far from it in fact. Sorry if i gave that impression but i am far from that,.

There is so much good stuff coming in the following weeks, its going to be magnificent. Saying that, I just don't understand why you guys are focusing so much on trying to be negative about a couple of seconds loading screens, in fact, i don't even know who you are arguing with about it. Do you know?>. i sure don't.


And i love that meme, that day will go down as one of the greatest of all time. And i was there to see it in its full glory. Thanks for the reminder, not seen it in a few days.


I went and checked the loading times of ratchet and astrobot, only because I read posts here forecasting doom about some xbox loading times shown on gamescom.
Turned out its not so much doom...
I even quoted the person that wrote his xbox concerns with my initial findings, so dont go saying that "you dont even know who am I arguing with"
Be fair fishy, like I am.

here's your song now, stop your fishy mouth and dance
 

sircaw

Banned
I went and checked the loading times of ratchet and astrobot, only because I read posts here forecasting doom about some xbox loading times shown on gamescom.
Turned out its not so much doom...
I even quoted the person that wrote his xbox concerns with my initial findings, so dont go saying that "you dont even know who am I arguing with"
Be fair fishy, like I am.

here's your song now, stop your fishy mouth and dance


It's hard to keep track, with all your constant putting people on ignore. :messenger_heart:



 

SaucyJack

Member
Nobody really has any clue here what "time" is being used to load.

Once ratchet grabs the portal, theoretically they COULD:

- Unload any data not currently visible to the user (the current data cache)
- Start loading the data for the next world, but can't fully load it as there's still visible current level data needed
- Once they hit the portal itself, they can completely dump any non-shared assets for the previous world
- Inside the portal they can continue fully loading the next "level", prioritizing what is visible to the user
- During the "other side" of the portal jump, where the player can't really control anything, they could use that time to fetch the cache they need for what data isn't currently visible to the user, but needs to be loaded (the asset streaming cache)
- There are also calculations that need to be made, enemy placements for the next level, any other "randomness" for the next level, etc.

But are they using all of that time for loading? Nobody knows..I would guess not... my guess is:

- Portal itself is used to load what is required to render what is directly visible on the other side of the portal
- Canned animation on the other end is used to pre-fetch other data needing to be cached
- I feel like that time is also plenty for any calculations that need to be done to generate the random things on the next level, but some of the animation before entering the portal could also be being used for that

Nobody but the devs really know.

People are overthinking this, mainly because someone is trolling the forum and we keep biting.

The devs have said what’s happening and they’ve stated that loading is “instant” and we know from Cerny's presentation that they can fill memory pretty damned quickly so there’s really no reason not to believe them.

The assumption that an animation is put over the portal transition to make it less jarring is a reasonable one. The fact that the transition overall is about 2 seconds should have us all pretty happy.

The 9 second section includes 7 seconds of gameplay either side of a portal transition as Ratchet jumps into the portal and then glides to the ground when he comes out the other end. This part of the discussion is asinine.
 

Bo_Hazem

Banned
You accused people of manipulating the timer to produce a misleading result. That was simply, plainly, demonstrably untrue. That's the issue here and that's what you refuse to address. If you'd timed it yourself you would've seen that the video posted by Thegreatwhiteshark was correct.

Now you say you didn't time it and rather than address that, you post another video that proves you were wrong. Yet, somehow, you still cling to the idea that the original video was 'BS'?

You've got to be kidding. BTW, this new video says the sequence in question is nine seconds rather than six. 50% longer than GWS said. So, I guess you're spreading FUD now?

Look, let's try and salvage something from this shit-show.

The video you posted shows on-rail sequences that claim very short loading times, however the only gameplay to gameplay section shows the loading to be something like six to nine seconds.

Now take a breath before you react. Is six to nine seconds disappointing to you? Is it not good enough? When you get your PS5 on launch day, plug it in and fire up the first game, are you going to take it back if it takes six seconds to load?

Just relax.

Six to nine seconds to load an entire next-gen level is fantastic.

If someone says that it might be more realistic to expect six seconds rather than .08 seconds, they're not saying that the PS5 is junk. They're just suggesting that maybe you should temper your expectations.

Look at the evidence given to you by Sony themselves. Forget what other people say, forget what the PR is, look at the official video.

For what it's worth, the Series X will likely be slower, OK? You'll always have that.

Ok the per frame calculator isn't accurate, but it doesn't matter. If frames drop it'll add more time.

But 1-2 seconds to load an entire world is beyond belief we read about it before seeing it, and that's by current gen standards that are much smaller and less complex.

Thank you for your good post, but per frame calculator isn't accurate as it assumes 100% 30fps performance, but it's not too far from the final results as it seems.
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Hey, that's true mate.

In fact, a lot of people are going to be surprised this coming gen when No Man's Sky's portals "only" load a planet at a mere 6x or so faster, instead of the expected 40-100x. Most of the game world is not really loaded from raw assets, but procedurally generated. Which means it's the CPU you're waiting for most of the time, not the IO.
Yeah it's never talked about really..

And with the better CPUs in next gen, should also be less of an issue. But those better CPUs are also going to enable designs that are more calculation heavy, so we'll see where we go with that.

The extreme example I deal with sometimes is changing turns in Civ 5 on PC. On something like an old laptop the game runs great for a couple hours.. but once you get far into the simulation, changing turns can take minutes lol.. and even on a desktop CPU more powerful than what next gen is getting, it's hardly instantaneous.
 
(y)



damn, little fishy!
I like you much, but boy-oh-boy, aren't you the worst kind of sony footsoldier
Good try man, fish don't have feet! No but I apologized however it was super misleading and also I just simply shouldn't have been suckered in. It truly was an attempt to get at "fanboys" which in a sense was what I call white trolling. It wasn't purposeful but what happens when everyone on this thing follows suite and starts showing XSX load times and doesn't just use a regular stopwatch counter for seconds. I did do it and understood after but also though ot was unintentionally misleading. Oh well, love everyone in here and don't care and have learned my lesson of ignoring petty nitpicking from all sides.
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
People are overthinking this, mainly because someone is trolling the forum and we keep biting.

The devs have said what’s happening and they’ve stated that loading is “instant”

lol.. oh come on.. nothing is instant. and that absolutely does not describe what is happening.

If you have no interest in the specifics and want to just claim something is "instant", be my guest.

I'm curious about the actual tech, so am going into more detail on what could be going on.

But my entire point is there's little logic to suggest that for asset loading the portal animation isn't plenty of time.
 

Tarin02543

Member
As developers [of Demon’s Souls], we are already changing the way we think about the SSD. We see it not just as storage but also memory, utilizing the speed of the SSD to load data at blistering speeds, bringing you straight back into the action to avenge your many deaths.”— Gavin Moore // Creative Director, SIE Japan Studio

This is big, can't wait to see that.
 

RookX22

Member
Man I just want to see boot up navigation launching a game media apps launching multiple games different save states. I feel like there is so much that hasn't been shown. I guess I will see all that stuff eventually after I buy it and turn it on at this rate.
 

Tarin02543

Member
for someone that has never played Demon souls, i image the run back is the same as in dark souls bloodborne etc, your don't spawn close to where you died do you?

Every death warrants a load screen, even if you respawn at the same point where you began.
 

FunkMiller

Member
All it will take is that sweet £349 price announcement along with their shit-eating grin and all will be forgiven. Let's be honest here.

Thanks to our glorious exit from the European Union, I think £399 is the absolute cheapest we're going to see the Ps5. Maybe the DE is £349. But I'm more minded to think the DE will be £399 and the full fat will be £429-£449.
 

Wooxsvan

Member

When listening to this, would you get a decent effect by using bluetooth headphones from a phone? Or is that completely pointless and it would sound no better than normal audio. Im trying to find some good samples I could listen to in order to get a sense of the effect.
 

SaucyJack

Member
lol.. oh come on.. nothing is instant. and that absolutely does not describe what is happening.

If you have no interest in the specifics and want to just claim something is "instant", be my guest.

I'm curious about the actual tech, so am going into more detail on what could be going on.

But my entire point is there's little logic to suggest that for asset loading the portal animation isn't plenty of time.

Do you understand the difference between instant and “instant”?
 

THE:MILKMAN

Member
If its £349 quid, i will find you, mount you and ride you up and down the god damn highstreet.

You have been warned my friend.

Ps that's without a saddle too.

tenor.gif


HauntingSomberBluefish-max-1mb.gif


You're on!

Thanks to our glorious exit from the European Union, I think £399 is the absolute cheapest we're going to see the Ps5. Maybe the DE is £349. But I'm more minded to think the DE will be £399 and the full fat will be £429-£449.

I would take £399 for the disc version but I reckon I'll struggle to win my no pre-order bet.
 

ZippDude

Member
Nobody really has any clue here what "time" is being used to load.

Once ratchet grabs the portal, theoretically they COULD:

- Unload any data not currently visible to the user (the current data cache)
- Start loading the data for the next world, but can't fully load it as there's still visible current level data needed
- Once they hit the portal itself, they can completely dump any non-shared assets for the previous world
- Inside the portal they can continue fully loading the next "level", prioritizing what is visible to the user
- During the "other side" of the portal jump, where the player can't really control anything, they could use that time to fetch the cache they need for what data isn't currently visible to the user, but needs to be loaded (the asset streaming cache)
- There are also calculations that need to be made, enemy placements for the next level, any other "randomness" for the next level, etc.

But are they using all of that time for loading? Nobody knows..I would guess not... my guess is:

- Portal itself is used to load what is required to render what is directly visible on the other side of the portal
- Canned animation on the other end is used to pre-fetch other data needing to be cached
- I feel like that time is also plenty for any calculations that need to be done to generate the random things on the next level, but some of the animation before entering the portal could also be being used for that

Nobody but the devs really know.
From the Washington Post article

“One of the cool things about it, is that it’s all still live gameplay where you can control your character,” game director Mike Daly said. “All those worlds that you’re traveling through during those sequences are real, fully fleshed out worlds that you could just, like, stop and play in under other circumstances.”

Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/video-games/2020/08/31/ratchet-and-clank-ps5/
 

Lethal01

Member
You accused people of manipulating the timer to produce a misleading result. That was simply, plainly, demonstrably untrue. That's the issue here and that's what you refuse to address. If you'd timed it yourself you would've seen that the video posted by Thegreatwhiteshark was correct.

Now you say you didn't time it and rather than address that, you post another video that proves you were wrong. Yet, somehow, you still cling to the idea that the original video was 'BS'?

You've got to be kidding. BTW, this new video says the sequence in question is nine seconds rather than six. 50% longer than GWS said. So, I guess you're spreading FUD now?

Look, let's try and salvage something from this shit-show.

The video you posted shows on-rail sequences that claim very short loading times, however the only gameplay to gameplay section shows the loading to be something like six to nine seconds.

Now take a breath before you react. Is six to nine seconds disappointing to you? Is it not good enough? When you get your PS5 on launch day, plug it in and fire up the first game, are you going to take it back if it takes six seconds to load?

Just relax.

Six to nine seconds to load an entire next-gen level is fantastic.

If someone says that it might be more realistic to expect six seconds rather than .08 seconds, they're not saying that the PS5 is junk. They're just suggesting that maybe you should temper your expectations.

Look at the evidence given to you by Sony themselves. Forget what other people say, forget what the PR is, look at the official video.

For what it's worth, the Series X will likely be slower, OK? You'll always have that.

The evidence shows about 2.5 seconds of loading for R&C. The 9 seconds thing is making a huge assumption that they are using a fancy animation to hide loading. It's very likely they just want some good animation to sell the transition. Sometimes an elevator is just an elevator.
 

Entroyp

Member
Oh an advertisement of the console I’ll have to be lucky and worthy enough to get a CHANCE to pre-order.

Who wants the unworthy people pre-order date and release date? Side features are more important.

10/10 marketing.

Just pre-order on Best Buy, Target, Gamestop, Walmart, etc etc
 

Tripolygon

Banned
It only takes a little bit of logic to figure it out though...
Loading times on segments that you basically see ratchet fly take ~2 seconds.
This is where you should have stopped counting as that is when the level has loaded and ratchet is in it.

In reality, i can almost say with 95% certainty that the world had already loaded completely in less than 2 seconds even before Ratchet entered into it.

Lets get technical.

The video is 29.97fps or 30fps
I grabbed about 256 frames ~ 8 seconds of footage from where i believe the loading started. I think so because it is where you still see some remnants of the currently level before he transitions into the wormhole or whatever it is called in the game.

WtR3rZs.gif


From there when he fully enters the wormhole is where i start counting as the loading segment.

30 frames = 1 second

Oya3Hq9.gif


Video

How developers choose to do their transition is not representative of capability of the system. And of course not all game engines work the same in terms of their streaming system. That is why;

Ghost of Tsushima fast travel in 7 seconds
Horizon Zero Dawn fast travel in 40 seconds
 
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