The Bloody-Nine
Member
Which is retarded.
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Naughty Dog's Game Design is Outdated [NakeyJakey]
- Thread starter Maiden Voyage
- Start date
- Opinion
mikefrails
Banned
The initial hate for the game had nothing to do with the gameplay, but now they're doubling back attacking the game design when that was never the problem.
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lock2k
Banned
So according to the bold only people who designed good games know what is a good design? This is pure bullshit.
Also, Metacritic doesn't prove shit. It's just a popularity contest. If it came down to popularity = good Justin Bieber would be as important as Beethoven to the history of music.
And even if it's good, he is entitled to think it's shit. I'm no architect, for example, and Oscar Niemeyer is hailed as the second coming of Christ in architecture. I think his buildings look like shit a toddler would come up with.
His opinion is completely valid.
mikefrails
Banned
Have you played TLOU2? Did you beat it?
kuncol02
Banned
Ludo-narrative dissonance is not major problem discussed in that video. It's really minor and comes mostly from bashing you in cutscenes for thing you didn't had control and other rather minor thing.
Indy never acted like someone who is unable to kill other person (If I remember corectly in first uncharted there is scene where Drake cannot shoot some random mercenary to samve Sully or something like that). Indy in Raider of Lost Ark kills around 10 people. Mostly nazi soldiers trying to kill him. In only Uncharted 2 Drake is killing more than 800 people. That's more than Simo Häyhä killed durring Winter War. Even at end of game enemies treat Drake more like annoyance and not deadliest person on earth. Other characters also never acknowledged his mass killings.
DeeDogg_
Banned
It’s sad when a forum of over 10k people has a collective consciousness that must be followed or your banned
lock2k
Banned
No. So what?
At the end of the day there are certain games I don't like and certain genres I don't like. I don't like turn based RPGs at all but I realize many people do and I want them to have their fun and happiness. Let those of us who love cinematic and story driven games have our fun and enjoyment as well. I love the fact that TLOU2 feels like I am in a darwinistic post apocalyptic world and RDR2 feels like the old west or Ghosts of Tsushima feels like an old samurai flick. I like how they bring that feel to an interactive medium. Others might prefer pure arcade fun and that is okay as well. There are different video game genres like there are different musical genres. I do agree that the rope could have been used better. It would awesome to swing down some place and surprise attack an enemy.
Maybe It's Medicine?
Member
I get more emotional seeing a soldier who survived two missions in 1994's Xcom UFO Defense die on their third run than do in any of ND's "deep" stories that they have to sacrifice gameplay to tell. Then again I'm only attached to that random soldier in Xcom because when they die, I feel some sense of responsibility because their stories are directly linked to MY choices. Not some force fed cg bullshit that wants to be a different media entirely because they are ashamed of making video games.
Imagine if tlou2's story was told through player expression rather than one man who enjoys the smell of his own farts. Probably would have been received alot better. How unfair of me though to compare a gaming masterpiece from 1994 made by like four people to a multi-million dollar behemoth.
Cutscenes are lazy storytelling in an interactive medium, akin to asking people to read plain white text on a black ground to convey scenes in a movie that the creators were too lazy to shoot. ND is one of the most overrated devs of all time. I have never seen a dev receive so much praise while bringing nothing of value to how games can be better and lacking any innovation whatsoever.
Imagine if tlou2's story was told through player expression rather than one man who enjoys the smell of his own farts. Probably would have been received alot better. How unfair of me though to compare a gaming masterpiece from 1994 made by like four people to a multi-million dollar behemoth.
Cutscenes are lazy storytelling in an interactive medium, akin to asking people to read plain white text on a black ground to convey scenes in a movie that the creators were too lazy to shoot. ND is one of the most overrated devs of all time. I have never seen a dev receive so much praise while bringing nothing of value to how games can be better and lacking any innovation whatsoever.
sol_bad
Member
Didn't watch the video, just read the TLDR.
Only thing I agree with based on the summary is the rope comment. I was really excited at that mechanics potential only for it to fall completely flat.
I loved everything else about this game and can't fault any of it. Anyone that has played this game knows that it involves more than just pressing up and triangle. And there is a lot of player agency in the minute to minute gameplay, obviously not in the story itself as Naughty Dog want to tell a story. And the way the story is told and presented is IMO revolutionary for all media ever.
Only thing I agree with based on the summary is the rope comment. I was really excited at that mechanics potential only for it to fall completely flat.
I loved everything else about this game and can't fault any of it. Anyone that has played this game knows that it involves more than just pressing up and triangle. And there is a lot of player agency in the minute to minute gameplay, obviously not in the story itself as Naughty Dog want to tell a story. And the way the story is told and presented is IMO revolutionary for all media ever.
Madflavor
Member
I'll add this. Love or hate the game, I don't know how anyone can make the argument the characters in TLoU2 were on the same level as Part 1's. Nobody in Part 2 was as likeable and entertaining to watch as Tess or Bill. Nobody was as a disgusting piece of shit as David. And of course no relationship came close to holding a candle to Joel and Ellie. There's a reason why the one thing lovers and haters can agree upon, is that the flashback sequences with those two were great. Because it's the only parts of the game's story that absolutely shines. During the final fight of TLoU2, I honestly didn't care who would win. That's really not a good sign of storytelling when the game spends so much time taking me on a journey with these two characters in 15 hour segments each.
The big tragedy of this game, at least to me, is that it destroyed the biggest thing that made TLoU special to a lot of people. Joel and Ellie was The Last of Us. There were other great parts about that game too, but those two were the heart of it. But now that's gone, and they didn't replace it with anything nearly as good.
The big tragedy of this game, at least to me, is that it destroyed the biggest thing that made TLoU special to a lot of people. Joel and Ellie was The Last of Us. There were other great parts about that game too, but those two were the heart of it. But now that's gone, and they didn't replace it with anything nearly as good.
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Omnipunctual Godot
Gold Member
That and the sales dropping off a cliff after the first week.
MrFunSocks
Banned
It was outdated when Uncharted came out. It's basically an on-rails platformer with bullet sponge enemy shootout arenas.
Madflavor
Member
I've made this point before, but people should not be surprised when TLoU3 doesn't sell as well as Part 2. Not saying it's gonna flop, it'll probably still do great. But Part 2 was riding off the success of the groundbreaking and widely beloved Part 1. Part 3 will be riding off one of the most polarizing games ever. It's essentially The Last Jedi of gaming. And boy do I remember fans of that film saying over and over that Episode IX will make more money than TLJ because it's just a vocal minority that hated it, and that the 2nd Star Wars film in a Trilogy always makes the least amount of money. Then it came out and made $300 million less than TLJ.
Fake
Member
Metacritic and God.
Omnipunctual Godot
Gold Member
I think that's a very apt comparison. A strong franchise with a high-pedigree name behind it that basically told half of its established audience to fuck off.
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Raonak
Banned
I love linear cinematic games. which is why I absolutely loved TLOU2.
You go into different games for different reasons.
DMC5 is one of my favourite games this generation, along with TLOU2, but for entirely different reasons.
I don't look for story in DMC, in the same way I don't look for freeform player agency in TLOU2.
It's 2020, diversity in games is a good thing. In a world of countless GAAS, Multiplayer, Openworld games,
We need more linear games like this imo.
--
Gameplay is legitimately fantastic in TLOU2 as well, so i don't really understand his complaints there either.
It's basically only second to MGSV in terms of stealth-action this generation.
It's not everybody's cup of tea. but for me, I wouldn't change a thing about it.
You go into different games for different reasons.
DMC5 is one of my favourite games this generation, along with TLOU2, but for entirely different reasons.
I don't look for story in DMC, in the same way I don't look for freeform player agency in TLOU2.
It's 2020, diversity in games is a good thing. In a world of countless GAAS, Multiplayer, Openworld games,
We need more linear games like this imo.
--
Gameplay is legitimately fantastic in TLOU2 as well, so i don't really understand his complaints there either.
It's basically only second to MGSV in terms of stealth-action this generation.
It's not everybody's cup of tea. but for me, I wouldn't change a thing about it.
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TheInfamousKira
Reseterror Resettler
What we desperately need here is more lead-ins to actual discussion that's about things besides exclusives and console wars. In the lead up to next gen, this forum is absolutely inundated with it, and it certainly has it's place, but for the people who couldn't bother to give a fuck about it at gunpoint (like me) it makes browsing the gaming section an exercise in reaching the bottom of the front page before my eyes glaze over. Yes, we should absolutely have more threads like this.
In Your Vase
Member
Replying only to header without reading elsewhere in the thread, so feel free to stab me if someone else made these points:
- Naughty Dog's encounter design has always been counterintuitive and against why most people play their games
- Encounters (especially in Last of Us 1) felt very much like annoying filler inbetween actual moments of significance, to the point where level design feels like they "give up" on staging encounters close to the last level of the game and just throw every kind of clicker into a mob in a tunnel you have to fight
- They could make encounters and other design elements more significant, but they compartmentalize it making it even more apparent as filler
- Most offensively, with Last of Us 2, Druckerman has made a game that shows the cycle of violence (clearly a "problem" in the pattern of Naughty Dog's games, unless you just want to have fun because hey, a game!) but then gives you NO CHOICE but to force you to engage in the violence and then preach to you about it.
- To emphasize the last point: This narrative take in a GAME is fucking lame as shit. If you hate your own designs (OMG cycle of violence is so bad in games no one should like it - huh?!), then change your design to emphasize the theme you're presenting, not ignore player's chance to participate in the theme. What a pretentious fuckbubble that guy is.
- Naughty Dog's encounter design has always been counterintuitive and against why most people play their games
- Encounters (especially in Last of Us 1) felt very much like annoying filler inbetween actual moments of significance, to the point where level design feels like they "give up" on staging encounters close to the last level of the game and just throw every kind of clicker into a mob in a tunnel you have to fight
- They could make encounters and other design elements more significant, but they compartmentalize it making it even more apparent as filler
- Most offensively, with Last of Us 2, Druckerman has made a game that shows the cycle of violence (clearly a "problem" in the pattern of Naughty Dog's games, unless you just want to have fun because hey, a game!) but then gives you NO CHOICE but to force you to engage in the violence and then preach to you about it.
- To emphasize the last point: This narrative take in a GAME is fucking lame as shit. If you hate your own designs (OMG cycle of violence is so bad in games no one should like it - huh?!), then change your design to emphasize the theme you're presenting, not ignore player's chance to participate in the theme. What a pretentious fuckbubble that guy is.
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Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
Exactly why I have little desire to play such games e.g. TLOU2, Uncharted, Tomb Raider, BotW etc etc. Sure they look great and want to tell a story but I'm in gaming for the gameplay over anything else. I can't stand shit like escorting or endless climbing/crafting/menus of say BotW or Witcher III to an extent. Nakey Jakey basically hits the same notes I do in this regard.
EverythingsOverrated
Member
That was a solid video. Having said that, I haven't played TLOU2 so I can't really rebut anything he said, BUT a few things really stood out to me.
In games like this where there isn't that much gameplay spread over 20+ hours it's really hard for me to stay attentive. When I was playing Uncharted 4 I just was blasting through it as fast as possible in the last 1/4 because the gameplay itself had just become monotonous and boring, I just wanted to see how the story wrapped up. The game doesn't really introduce much new stuff over the course of the adventure. Gameplay wise you've seen everything within the first few hours. You don't have those "Aha!" moments that you have in other games that have deep systems.
He mentions MGS3 and that's the perfect example. It's a very story heavy game that keeps you interested through its constant exposition in both narrative and gameplay. I replay MGS3 every few years and still come across little details that I missed before - like realizing you can destroy the food storage houses which will make guards eat spoiled food you leave behind.
In games like this where there isn't that much gameplay spread over 20+ hours it's really hard for me to stay attentive. When I was playing Uncharted 4 I just was blasting through it as fast as possible in the last 1/4 because the gameplay itself had just become monotonous and boring, I just wanted to see how the story wrapped up. The game doesn't really introduce much new stuff over the course of the adventure. Gameplay wise you've seen everything within the first few hours. You don't have those "Aha!" moments that you have in other games that have deep systems.
He mentions MGS3 and that's the perfect example. It's a very story heavy game that keeps you interested through its constant exposition in both narrative and gameplay. I replay MGS3 every few years and still come across little details that I missed before - like realizing you can destroy the food storage houses which will make guards eat spoiled food you leave behind.
Sure there's a decent amount of menu stuff in BotW but it's probably one of the most gameplay dense/not story focused games released this generation, especially when compared to ND games. I would highly recommend giving it a shot.
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Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
I gave it a shot and I'm a long time Zelda fan too. Hated it. Weapons degradation, cooking, climbing. Soooo boring.
DeeDogg_
Banned
TLOU2 sucks. Get over it
Explosive Zombie
Banned
"my opinion is right. get over it"
bender
What time is it?
I don't know if he's wrong or right, but this video was like watching my own thoughts in an hour long video. His closing thoughts are wonderful. Subscribed. Randomness:
-My Naughty Dog breaking point happened around Uncharted 3. That game started the trend of ND needing to one up the set piece action to the point of exhaustion. It's probably why I liked TLOU so much as it all felt more grounded.
-Speaking of bombast, TLOU2 has a bit too much of that Uncharted style bombast.
-Uncharted and TLOU aren't about great stories, they are bog standard. They deliver great characters who have wonderful chemistry. Nate and Sully, Nate and Elena, The entire TLOU cast was pretty great but especially Joel and Ellie.
-The best part and biggest disservice to TLOU2 is the Joel and Ellie museum/countdown flash back. It reminded me of how great their chemistry is with one another and how no other new character in the game has that type of relationship. The double album analogy is interesting and it's amazing how poorly the new cast was introduced and developed. Character motivation was severely lacking.
-One thing that this video doesn't touch on much (beyond sending the 8 month pregnant woman into multiple combat zones) is how stupidly all the characters handle their road trips. In the Joel revenge arc, 4 characters take three journeys to Seattle (Tommy, Ellie + Dina, Jesse). The game is full of idiotic road trips like this.
-Ultimately, TLOU2 left me where U3 left me, completely uninterested in this series after loving its' predecessor.
-My Naughty Dog breaking point happened around Uncharted 3. That game started the trend of ND needing to one up the set piece action to the point of exhaustion. It's probably why I liked TLOU so much as it all felt more grounded.
-Speaking of bombast, TLOU2 has a bit too much of that Uncharted style bombast.
-Uncharted and TLOU aren't about great stories, they are bog standard. They deliver great characters who have wonderful chemistry. Nate and Sully, Nate and Elena, The entire TLOU cast was pretty great but especially Joel and Ellie.
-The best part and biggest disservice to TLOU2 is the Joel and Ellie museum/countdown flash back. It reminded me of how great their chemistry is with one another and how no other new character in the game has that type of relationship. The double album analogy is interesting and it's amazing how poorly the new cast was introduced and developed. Character motivation was severely lacking.
-One thing that this video doesn't touch on much (beyond sending the 8 month pregnant woman into multiple combat zones) is how stupidly all the characters handle their road trips. In the Joel revenge arc, 4 characters take three journeys to Seattle (Tommy, Ellie + Dina, Jesse). The game is full of idiotic road trips like this.
-Ultimately, TLOU2 left me where U3 left me, completely uninterested in this series after loving its' predecessor.
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ZehDon
Gold Member
Well, not really. NakeyJakey says in his video that the gameplay for Naughty Dog's games has always been extremely limited and on-rails, but that the narrative that framed it and the characters that populated it were so well executed in their previous titles that you don't really mind. You're there for the story, so you don't care you as a player are an absent observer. He goes on to explain that, due to the litany of issues he has with TLOU2's story, characters and execution, the gameplay becomes the sole motivator for playing... and its just not good enough to carry the game. He's not "double backing" - he's quite clear on his issues. If you go and read the initial responses to TLOU2 here and elsewhere, you'll find lamentation over the unevolved gameplay mentioned more than a few times. It's a pretty common gripe.
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Strategize
Member
Anyway, best encounter design and balancing in it's genre. Nevermind all the visual and audio bells and whistles. So good I've played some encounters for 3 hours straight on repeat while listening to podcasts. Factions should be a dream.
(Yes, I know his video wasn't talking the combat itself.)
(Yes, I know his video wasn't talking the combat itself.)
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bender
What time is it?
Well said. I think TLOU was a step in the right direction for the Gears style combat that both it and Uncharted aped, but it still wasn't up to modern standards of the time. All the platforming and puzzle mechanics felt severely dated and of course they threw crafting into the mix because it was the flavor of the week. Joel and Ellie's relationship was just so compelling that you forgave those shortcomings. It reminds me a lot of Soul Reaver 2 on the PS2. Great story and voice cast but boy were the combat and puzzle elements stuck in the past. TLOU2 just doesn't have anything to carry it except for the visuals.
It's not the focus but it's touched upon.
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S
Shodan09
Unconfirmed Member
Yep. It was outdated when Uncharted 4 launched. They've not mixed it up for two generations now. Even with 3 it was wearing a bit thin and the last of us is just more of the same.
MastaKiiLA
Member
This. It's been used to generate page clicks for gaming news sites in the past, so using forums for YT views just makes logical sense.
Ellery
Member
Thanks for sharing your subjective opinion. TLOU2 is my favorite game and I enjoyed it multiple times and I will enjoy it again and toxic opinions from online people who don't understand/like it won't change it.
From my perspective it sounds like this situation sucks for you, because you don't get to cherish what I got to cherish. Sorry to hear that mate, but there are plenty other games out there for you. They might not have the quality of Naughty Dog games, but that is your problem I guess.
Dr. Claus
Vincit qui se vincit
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The Bloody-Nine
Member
How fragile are you that people not liking something that you do upsets you?Thanks for sharing your subjective opinion. TLOU2 is my favorite game and I enjoyed it multiple times and I will enjoy it again and toxic opinions from online people who don't understand/like it won't change it.
From my perspective it sounds like this situation sucks for you, because you don't get to cherish what I got to cherish. Sorry to hear that mate, but there are plenty other games out there for you. They might not have the quality of Naughty Dog games, but that is your problem I guess.
Dr. Claus
Vincit qui se vincit
They are essentially the D.Final od the TLOU2 threads. Repeats the same thing and can’t handle people not liking the game.
Ellery
Member
I am not the one being fragile. He said "TLOU2 sucks. get over" it and stated it like it was a fact. That sounds pretty fragile to me and he directly quoted me.
I am allowed to respond to that.
But how fragile are you that you feel attacked by my opinion about my favorite game? Get over it.
The Bloody-Nine
Member
What? How do I feel 'attacked'?
And it's not just one post, is it? It's in practically every Last of Us 2 thread. You simply can't seem to accept that people don't like something that you do. It's fucking weird.
Ellery
Member
You are randomly quoting me after I responded to a person that directly quoted me.
I said it often enough that it is okay if other people don't like this game. It is their loss. Fine by me, but I can respond to a guy DIRECTLY quoting me with BS or do you want to take that from me? yikes man
The Bloody-Nine
Member
Ellery
Member
I don't see any issue with my banter here and a lot of people (both the haters and lovers) seemed to like/understand my intentions there.
If you are having a bad it is well good. We are all gamers and you really don't need to worry about whether I feel secure in my taste. I do. I love it and that is end of the story. Time to stop derailing this thread. If you want to go deeper into whatever is on your mind feel free to pm me. I feel you are overreading my intentions and I have dealt with enough right wing internet crybabies trying to hate on this game disguising it as "story sucks" criticism directly insulting me multiple times and I was never fazed by it. Funnily some of those people got banned for weeks, because they were well out of order.
All good cheer up and take things a bit easier.
lock2k
Banned
Opinions are just opinions. You know what's toxic? Chernobyl.
RJMacready73
Simps for Amouranth
tbf the haters are all full of shit and shouldnt be playing games of this calibre, exactly why i stay the fuck away from kiddie shit like Minecraft
lock2k
Banned
Are hardcore gamers similar to indie rock elitists?
I was having a conversation with a friend of mine who is a hardcore gamer type and it was just exhausting. I notice it is the same kind of elitism and attitudes towards anything mainstream or AAA in the case of gaming and the way they insult those who have more mainstream tastes or casuals as...
mr.dilya
Banned
Completely agree. I'm so sick of games trying to be movies, with scripts, celebrity voice actors, and sex scenes.
RJMacready73
Simps for Amouranth
then dont play games like that you fucking muppet, i dont play looter shooters cause i hate em
Ellery
Member
I mean realistically about 8000-9000 new games are released each year (and many many many more on mobile, but I didn't count those games) and how many games would fit that description you made?