-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Naughty Dog's Game Design is Outdated [NakeyJakey]
- Thread starter Maiden Voyage
- Start date
- Opinion
RJMacready73
Simps for Amouranth
Dr. Claus
Vincit qui se vincit
Translation: “I’m a big boy who only plays big boy games! It’s totally to not cover up my own inadequacies. Really! I AM A BIG BOY!”
lol talk about insecurities. I think you beat out everyone in this thread.
EverydayBeast
thinks Halo Infinite is a new graphical benchmark
Most people burn through NaughtyDog games those games are slammed with gameplay, content etc. Sony will need a big time 3rd person Naughty Dog game on PS5 phenomenal games.
mr.dilya
Banned
To be considered a AAA game these days it has to have those elements, which usually leads to long development times and drought periods in between. There is a place for these type of games but we are reaching the point of diminishing returns, especially now that games are creeping towards the $100 price point. I know people here hate the switch but there is a reason why Nintendo is so successful, they understand that video games should place fun factor beyond all else, and it’s also why indie games have become so popular over the last several years. Not saying that all games should be indie quality level in terms of visuals but I want to see games focus on gameplay and fun factor instead of production value. I don’t want to play movies, I want to play games.
lock2k
Banned
Discussion forum. Don't want to discuss? Don't register. lol
Phunkydiabetic
Banned
I'll probably never watch the video but I agree that the game design at times felt outdated.
DeeDogg_
Banned
That’s cool. You’re free to like it, but that doesn’t mean that that don’t are wrong or toxicThanks for sharing your subjective opinion. TLOU2 is my favorite game and I enjoyed it multiple times and I will enjoy it again and toxic opinions from online people who don't understand/like it won't change it.
From my perspective it sounds like this situation sucks for you, because you don't get to cherish what I got to cherish. Sorry to hear that mate, but there are plenty other games out there for you. They might not have the quality of Naughty Dog games, but that is your problem I guess.
cormack12
Gold Member
I've refrained form jumping in as I've still to play this on the PS5. Waiting for that smoothness. I'm not bothered about spoilers etc.
But I think from after having watch many pros/cons videos I think it sounds like the story was written 'around' two key points. Which was the surgeon ambiguity and the 'cycle of revenge' tagline. I get the impression that these were the core things and messages they wanted to get people to get from the game so everything is focused around driving that home.
Whereas the first didn't really have that heaviness around it. It felt like I discovered TLOU I much in the way it was probably organically pieced together. I guess TLOU I feels more authentically a story, whereas TLOU II seems to collapse on itself by making the story fit the themes and takeaways they wanted the player ot have. However, I'm happy to review this when I get round to it around xmas. Just going off a lot of stuff I've seen.
I'm glad most agree on the gameplay being a massive step up though.
But I think from after having watch many pros/cons videos I think it sounds like the story was written 'around' two key points. Which was the surgeon ambiguity and the 'cycle of revenge' tagline. I get the impression that these were the core things and messages they wanted to get people to get from the game so everything is focused around driving that home.
Whereas the first didn't really have that heaviness around it. It felt like I discovered TLOU I much in the way it was probably organically pieced together. I guess TLOU I feels more authentically a story, whereas TLOU II seems to collapse on itself by making the story fit the themes and takeaways they wanted the player ot have. However, I'm happy to review this when I get round to it around xmas. Just going off a lot of stuff I've seen.
I'm glad most agree on the gameplay being a massive step up though.
Thickandblack
Banned
Best game I have ever played and I hate that SJW shit.
Krappadizzle
Member
Yeah, you seem like the type that responds better to a linear, go in one direction cinematic shooter rather than a game that is only limited by your imagination and your ability to think. I can't imagine how much of a struggle thinking must be for you. You've shown your lack of thought process by comparing two games that aren't even close to being in the same category.
I think waiting for the PS5 version will pay off for you to be honest. People's opinions on the story are all subjective. I personally fucking hated it and felt like it really betrayed what was established in the first game. But I did think it was fun to play and it's a stunning looking game. My only complaint about the gameplay was that it was stuck at shitty 30fps and how shitty it feels to play a shooter type game with a controller. PS5 will alleviate quite a bit of the issues with gameplay that I had.
Last edited:
I am not one to say people aren't real gamers if they don't enjoy this or that they are not smart enough to get it but at the same time accept that many of us love these types of games and let us have our happiness. People talk about fun factor but to me this is more fun than playing a turned based RPG or most games on the switch. It's subjective.
Jon Neu
Banned
Life comes at you fast.
Seems to me this "game design is outdated" phrase has become a trendy thing to say lately. And then, you look at all the massive AAA games of the industry and you can put that silly label in all of them too if you want to.
It's really, really, really hard to make something new with videogame mechanics and design. Let's see if the next gen brings something new to the table -so far after seeing the PS5 gameplays doesn't seem like it though-.
PlayerPurple
Member
I'm not sure I agree: the indie scene is proof alone that tons of new game mechanics are just waiting to be found. I think the issue has more to do with the AAA game business model, which on principle resists innovation.
Budgets have only gone up since 2005, from X million to XXX million, yet prices have remained at $60. When your game needs to sell at least X million copies just to break even, you'd be a fool to "innovate" and risk alienating buyers.
Hopefully rising console & game prices will allow publishers a bit of breathing room to innovate more.
Last edited:
Jon Neu
Banned
I feel like most of the "new game mechanics" of the indie scene aren't really that new, they are just presented in a different way.
I think we have reached a level in which is really really hard to bring something new to the table to gaming. Maybe with VR we can find new ways of doing videogames.
PlayerPurple
Member
Highly disagree: you should really try more indies. Innovation's out there: it just hasn't been financially viable for use in AAA.
Look how slowly people have embraced gyro aim in the past few years, despite it being available to the masses on console since 2006. Or how people barely embrace VR now, despite PSVR's tracking tech dating back to the early 2000's.
Beer Baelly
Al Pachinko, Konami President
UC3 was outdated and they kept the formula going for over a decade now
Ellery
Member
I agree and never said that people who disagree are wrong/toxic.
S
SpongebobSquaredance
Unconfirmed Member
and the corniest comment goes to...
There is this concept of having opinions.
I know, it is crazy.
LMFAO@ the ponys trying to put shade on someone and discredit him just because he speaks his mind about a piece of entertainment.
Fbh
Member
Haven't seen the whole thing (his style is a bit annoying to be honest) but I agree with a lot of the first half.
Naughty Dog doesn't have such good core gameplay. I love Uncharted 2 but the shooting is just ok, the climbing is usually on autopilot and the few puzzles are rather basic. But the reason it worked so well was that ND really nailed that cinematic action rollercoaster in a way that no dev had done before (or since, really), and it makes it really easy (at least to me) to overlook that the actual moment to moment gameplay isn't that good.
I think that's one of the big issue with their games this gen. Both Uc4 and TLOU2 are longer than the previous games (twice as long in the case of TLOU2) on top of having slower pacing, and it ends up highlighting the issues with their gameplay way more than their last gen games. Uncharted 4 has fewer big setpiece moments and fewer combat encounters than 2 and yet it's longer so you spend even more time walking and talking, solving boring wooden crate "puzzles" and going through autopilot "platforming" sections, and the overall experience ends up being way worse.
I felt the same way about TLOU2, I loved playing through the first one but was getting kinda bored around the 20 hours mark in TLOU2 because all combat encounters are very samey and other than that you are just slowly walking through abandoned buildings pressing triangle to open drawers (and depending on your difficulty setting finding nothing 90% of the time).
I think moving forward if they want to continue making these longer and slower games they really need to improve both the core gameplay as well as the gameplay variety.
A slower Uncharted could be great IF the platforming was actually fun and the puzzles were better.
Naughty Dog doesn't have such good core gameplay. I love Uncharted 2 but the shooting is just ok, the climbing is usually on autopilot and the few puzzles are rather basic. But the reason it worked so well was that ND really nailed that cinematic action rollercoaster in a way that no dev had done before (or since, really), and it makes it really easy (at least to me) to overlook that the actual moment to moment gameplay isn't that good.
I think that's one of the big issue with their games this gen. Both Uc4 and TLOU2 are longer than the previous games (twice as long in the case of TLOU2) on top of having slower pacing, and it ends up highlighting the issues with their gameplay way more than their last gen games. Uncharted 4 has fewer big setpiece moments and fewer combat encounters than 2 and yet it's longer so you spend even more time walking and talking, solving boring wooden crate "puzzles" and going through autopilot "platforming" sections, and the overall experience ends up being way worse.
I felt the same way about TLOU2, I loved playing through the first one but was getting kinda bored around the 20 hours mark in TLOU2 because all combat encounters are very samey and other than that you are just slowly walking through abandoned buildings pressing triangle to open drawers (and depending on your difficulty setting finding nothing 90% of the time).
I think moving forward if they want to continue making these longer and slower games they really need to improve both the core gameplay as well as the gameplay variety.
A slower Uncharted could be great IF the platforming was actually fun and the puzzles were better.
Polygonal_Sprite
Member
BotW is also my favourite game ever but comparing games like it to TLOU II is a bit ridiculous imo. A different game going for a completely different aim. I myself like both types of experience. Variety is the spice of life!
In Your Vase
Member
Agreed. When people get shocked when the fact TLOU has a 'meh' story and can't believe anyone would say that, I always ask if it's the story they love or the characters and their interactions - TLOU was a "meh" story with great character interactions.
To be fair, the story does peak a little when David/Nolan North's arc begins, but part of the shock value of that arc is undermined by it being a tired post-apoc trope as well.
bender
What time is it?
I think "meh" is a little harsh but the stories aren't exactly original concepts either so ymmv depending on fatigue. I see the stories familiar, solid vehicles to deliver those great character relationships. I also think one of the more jarring things about TLOU2 is how weak a lot of the character dialog and chemistry was. I'm not sure if it stuck out more because there were so many new faces and I wasn't invested or if I didn't become invested because the weak dialog and chemistry.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
I just think people generally don't appreciate how the general structure and rhythm of progression in most games only works when wrapped in very particular stories and story structures.
In simple terms most games are plotted around an unchanging "mission" format, the story unfolding in an episodic fashion that's repeats cyclically with some degree of variation along the way. Its comfortable and familiar, and even if the big-bad gets switched the essential premise of the gameplay remains intact.
**TLOU2 Spoilers ahead**
TLOU2 I feel throws people because it violates the "mission" ( Ellie's revenge) by building initially to an anticlimax, then introducing a whole new "mission" (Abby's redemption arc) that in sentiment is the polar opposite of the first, even though the gameplay aspect remains consistent. By the time the third-act rolls around on the face of it the player is supposed to resume the initial "mission" that the second act has spent its entire duration undermining!
The thing is, the story that's being told makes sense on a narrative level, and its actually quite an interesting and merit worthy thing to try. The problem is that this story breaks the fundamental "mission" conceit and detaches some players as a result. The goal they thought they were chasing has been subverted and nullified giving them no "hook" to pull them through.
In essence I think the problem is that ND hold on so tight to the reins of the plot, that they don't allow the player to make the "mistake" that is the central mcguffin of the story, and as a result they don't really process it. They just watch it unfold.
In simple terms most games are plotted around an unchanging "mission" format, the story unfolding in an episodic fashion that's repeats cyclically with some degree of variation along the way. Its comfortable and familiar, and even if the big-bad gets switched the essential premise of the gameplay remains intact.
**TLOU2 Spoilers ahead**
TLOU2 I feel throws people because it violates the "mission" ( Ellie's revenge) by building initially to an anticlimax, then introducing a whole new "mission" (Abby's redemption arc) that in sentiment is the polar opposite of the first, even though the gameplay aspect remains consistent. By the time the third-act rolls around on the face of it the player is supposed to resume the initial "mission" that the second act has spent its entire duration undermining!
The thing is, the story that's being told makes sense on a narrative level, and its actually quite an interesting and merit worthy thing to try. The problem is that this story breaks the fundamental "mission" conceit and detaches some players as a result. The goal they thought they were chasing has been subverted and nullified giving them no "hook" to pull them through.
In essence I think the problem is that ND hold on so tight to the reins of the plot, that they don't allow the player to make the "mistake" that is the central mcguffin of the story, and as a result they don't really process it. They just watch it unfold.
Last edited:
Rhazer Fusion
Member
People just can’t let TLOU2 go, can they? Don’t a lot of those problems apply to most AAA games as well?
Last edited:
Aside from the story taking a narrative "reset", the player character itself resets as well. That was the part that I found jarring. Especially in a game that has RPG elements built in, you've spent all this time collecting items, leveling up and unlocking skills for your character, and then somewhere in the middle, you have to start over all again. Which would have been fine if the character plays completely differently than previously, and forced you to learn a new way to tackle encounters. But that wasn't the case.
DeeDogg_
Banned
Um. “Toxic opinions from people who do not like it” is as close to saying that as possible. Unless you have Alzheimer’s and don’t remember posting that
Madflavor
Member
Yeah but you'll get no argument from people on that. It's like saying "The sky is blue".
tassletine
Member
I agree. The main problem is using "I want to get back and see what happens to Ellie" as the main motivating factor to move the plot along for a huge stretch.
They then try to slide in -getting you to empathise for Abby- as you are waiting for this to happen.
And they do this by mainly getting you to feel sorry for her, not by making her likeable. This is a huge mistake IMO. They seem to have confused empathy for sympathy.
Generally ND want you to pity these characters rather than getting you to empathise with them, like the first game.
Look how hard they have it -- rather than look how resilient they are -- It's a big difference in storytelling and I think what put a lot of people off.
luffie
Member
Great video. He made great points on Ellie not empathising with Abby because Ellie doesn't play as Abby, which I often made when arguing how poor the story was.
And people saying Ellie was more vengeful was also wrong, considering she witnessed the murder in front of her own eyes, and the revenge happens practically the next day. Whereas Abby has been holding vengeance for 4 years, hunting down Joel, and killing him immediately after he rescued her.
Jakey is right, people play TLOU2 for the story, not the gameplay. Nobody looked forward to TLOU2 because they were so blown away by the gameplay of TLOU.
And people saying Ellie was more vengeful was also wrong, considering she witnessed the murder in front of her own eyes, and the revenge happens practically the next day. Whereas Abby has been holding vengeance for 4 years, hunting down Joel, and killing him immediately after he rescued her.
Jakey is right, people play TLOU2 for the story, not the gameplay. Nobody looked forward to TLOU2 because they were so blown away by the gameplay of TLOU.
This thread is pretty fucking toxic, and it’s not from the TLOU2 fans.
Its been 4 months. It’s time to move on and stop caring so much about a game you all claim to dislike, and many of you never played.
”Well I don’t like Naughty Dogs design choices.” Good for you. Now fuck off
Umbral
Member
If this game is your high bar, I think you should play more games…a lot more.
DeeDogg_
Banned
Such an Emotionally charged response over a video game that broke all sorts of records and got 10/10s across the board by reviewing sites. Why does my opinion hurt you so?
lock2k
Banned
rofif
Can’t Git Gud
I kind agree but it is not outdated in uc4. It's still fun there.
Tlou2 is bad gameplay wise jest as rdr2 is... But I love that ending and combat.... But there was so little of it and the game is 30 fucking hours. Seriously... Death stranding was 10x more engaging and you walk
Tlou2 is bad gameplay wise jest as rdr2 is... But I love that ending and combat.... But there was so little of it and the game is 30 fucking hours. Seriously... Death stranding was 10x more engaging and you walk
Last edited:
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
I honestly think its simpler than that; My thought is that while you can switch characters, sympathies, big-bads, and all round world-view within the fiction, you simply cannot violate the core "mission" premise of the gameplay. That singular purpose cannot be violated because its the through-line for the player, the thing that connects them to everything else.
The hero can in fact be revealed to be the villain, nobility can be revealed to be folly, the enemy you've been chasing may prove to be a decoy or a phantom, etc. But what you can't do, without losing a chunk of the audience at least, is set up a powerful, motivating, goal and then simply abandon it mid-way through the overall narrative arc.
You can work around this by segmenting the story into self-contained acts, where you get a beginning, middle and end, and then the story resets, pivoting to a new perspective that builds on and/or subverts understanding of what was accomplished this far (both Nier games do this, and it works very well). It even possible to add a third-act which extends and builds upon the composite world-view established previously like Nier Automata does.
The key seems to be having clear points of demarcation (route A, route B, etc.) and ensuring that each part stands on its own as being its own particular thing. You fold this into a singular long arc like TLOU2 does, and the overall effect is like removing the punctuation from a paragraph or run-on sentence. Meaning gets lost.
To be specific, if it were me directing TLOU2 I'd break the game into 3 serially unlocked chapters.
Chapter 1 would be Ellie's story, I'd trim out the introductory scenes establishing Abby and the WLF and simply let things play out as they do with the exception that it'd end with Ellie killing Abby in theater. Roll credits, let the player feel the futility of their triumph.
Chapter 2 would reinstate the cut Abby segments from Chapter 1, to deepen an understanding of her character arc (showing her initially where Ellie ends up, consumed by vengeance), and let things play out exactly as they do in the game as it stands. Abby spares Ellie, roll credits and let the player process this new turn of events.
Chapter 3, again simply let this play out as before. I'd intercut the establishing scenes of both Ellie and Abby if possible because the idea at this point is that both characters, while compromised, have their reasons for doing what they've done.
The big change though would be having a choice in the final face-off as to whether to spare or kill Abby at the beach. It wouldn't matter if this was faked so as to preserve a singular canonical finish(i.e. if Ellie kills Abby, she sits there and bleeds out herself also), just something to enshrine the point of the story.
Last edited:
The Bloody-Nine
Member
Sure, let's just shut the board down while we're at it because discussion hurts your feelings. How about you just avoid these threads instead and stop whining.
Last edited:
Why is it whenever someone calls out bullshit, it has to be because their feelings are hurt?
I’ll think I will stay here and comment, watching people like you freak out over a game they claim not to care about.
It’s the same shit reply over and over.
Last edited:
S
SpongebobSquaredance
Unconfirmed Member
please take oneWhy is it whenever someone calls out bullshit, it has to be because their feelings are hurt?
I’ll think I will stay here and comment, watching people like you freak out over a game they claim not to care about.
Dr. Claus
Vincit qui se vincit
Take your own advice, mate. Also ironic that you call detractors as "toxic" and yet you post shit like this. Lol
