Edgelord79
Gold Member
Im not necessarily disagreeing with you. My family background (not what I do for a living though) is in cash crop and livestock farming. Whenever I see these types of threads I find it amusing.
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The 'CD' Stands For 'Crunching Developers' (The Jimquisition)
- Thread starter Bryank75
- Start date
Aggelos
Member
Look, I'm a software developer.
I work 35 (maybe sometimes less) -40 hours / week
SOMETIMES I work 45-55 hrs/week like 2-4 TIMES a year.....It's NO BIG DEAL.....It's a wonderful, "cush" job despite that. I understand that sometimes, rarely, I should work extra as the EXCEPTION, once in awhile.....and it' not ditch digging or anything.....No complaints from me.
I work 35 (maybe sometimes less) -40 hours / week
SOMETIMES I work 45-55 hrs/week like 2-4 TIMES a year.....It's NO BIG DEAL.....It's a wonderful, "cush" job despite that. I understand that sometimes, rarely, I should work extra as the EXCEPTION, once in awhile.....and it' not ditch digging or anything.....No complaints from me.
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B-universe
Banned
So according to Jason's own words the reason he won't even consider boycotting is that he wouldn't be able to do his job. What is the difference between that stance and stating that boycotting games would mean not being able to enjoy one's hobby?
Jason, Jason.
Rean no Kiseki
Banned
Oh Jimbo if you only put this much effort into losing weight since i'm sure your heart and other organs are REEEEEEEEEEing as much as you right now.
Soulblighter31
Banned
How awesome this thread is here, calling jim the retard that he is. Then you look at the thread in the loony house about this and they're all thank god for jim, transphobia, fuck cdred, cruuuunch .... What a forum of sewage waste that is
RokkanStoned
Member
I've never seen anyone care as much for overtime as games journalists or internet personalities do when it comes to gaming. Heck, people doing overtime as doctors or truck drivers, where your life is at stake, never get this same type of attention (that's not to say that they shouldn't get more attention). It often just seems disingenuous and like they're more just stirring up shit or fellating developers, rather than concerns for work conditions.
It often ends up being made into a black or white issue "crunch vs no crunch", which just feels wrong. Perhaps the circumstances of crunch matter? That would be a way to consider the situation with a bit more nuance. Though I can't really expect nuance from Jim Sterling, as his schtick is kind of being the man on the soap box with a humoristic presentation relying on strawmen to build his arguments. And it's not like he hides that he often has no idea about projects and project management. Nor that he hides selectively believing whichever source confirms his point. Honestly, while I applaud his ideal of universalism, he often lacks the nuance to actually differentiates between degrees, either quantitatively or qualitatively, of something. If you lack that nuance, then killing an ant and killing a human is the same thing according to an universal view of killing, which is what I personally feel like Jim lacks in a lot of the things he brings up.
Personally the talk about crunch should be one of the circumstances. Are they paid and in what manner? Are they limited in scope or are someone just outright trying to run half a project as crunch? Was a delay considered and were it rejected due to various concerns, especially economic? Were a softer crunch periode considered, perhaps with voluntary overtime? Are exceptions taken when a person is clearly struggling under the overtime conditions? Are there any post-mortems, project evaluations, in order to realize what went wrong and what could be learnt for the next project in order to make the crunch period less intense or better? What means for stress relief are available for your developers? Etc.
That feels like a better conversation than running with pitchforks at the mention of crunch: "CRUNCH!? DIEEEE!!!! IT'S ALL THE BOSS' FAULT!!!". Or just saying "there must always be a crunch, there must always be a crunch, there must...". Yelling at one another is definitely not a conversation, neither is holding your ears while talking to someone. Which is why a conversation is likely to be far more fruitful than blanket positions.
It often ends up being made into a black or white issue "crunch vs no crunch", which just feels wrong. Perhaps the circumstances of crunch matter? That would be a way to consider the situation with a bit more nuance. Though I can't really expect nuance from Jim Sterling, as his schtick is kind of being the man on the soap box with a humoristic presentation relying on strawmen to build his arguments. And it's not like he hides that he often has no idea about projects and project management. Nor that he hides selectively believing whichever source confirms his point. Honestly, while I applaud his ideal of universalism, he often lacks the nuance to actually differentiates between degrees, either quantitatively or qualitatively, of something. If you lack that nuance, then killing an ant and killing a human is the same thing according to an universal view of killing, which is what I personally feel like Jim lacks in a lot of the things he brings up.
Personally the talk about crunch should be one of the circumstances. Are they paid and in what manner? Are they limited in scope or are someone just outright trying to run half a project as crunch? Was a delay considered and were it rejected due to various concerns, especially economic? Were a softer crunch periode considered, perhaps with voluntary overtime? Are exceptions taken when a person is clearly struggling under the overtime conditions? Are there any post-mortems, project evaluations, in order to realize what went wrong and what could be learnt for the next project in order to make the crunch period less intense or better? What means for stress relief are available for your developers? Etc.
That feels like a better conversation than running with pitchforks at the mention of crunch: "CRUNCH!? DIEEEE!!!! IT'S ALL THE BOSS' FAULT!!!". Or just saying "there must always be a crunch, there must always be a crunch, there must...". Yelling at one another is definitely not a conversation, neither is holding your ears while talking to someone. Which is why a conversation is likely to be far more fruitful than blanket positions.
Abriael_GN
RSI Employee of the Year
HaveButOneLife
Banned
SJW's have poor principles, shocking, I know.
Razorfist does this better and actually has good points to offer.
Razorfist does this better and actually has good points to offer.
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Abriael_GN
RSI Employee of the Year
I'll tell you why, or at least one of the reasons.
Doing gaming journalism well, especially in the news field, requires enormous amounts of overtime. You're crunching every single day of the week, 365 days a year. Of course, not many actually do it and most employers don't demand it, but that's what it takes and what the good ones do out of passion and work ethics. Gaming news comes from all over the world and it doesn't stop because it's 4 AM or Christmas.
Obviously, the same goes for all kinds of news, but gaming outlets don't usually have massive newsrooms like general news outlets do, so fewer people have to do more.
That's one of the reasons why many gaming "journalists" who hate actually working hard are all up in arms trying to paint working hard negatively. That creates an excuse for not doing it themselves. They're terrorized that someone will ask them to work overtime and try to create a stigma against those who do to avoid being considered less capable.
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Fbh
Member
Sorry Jim, we can't all make $15K a month making lazily put together Youtube videos.
Anyway, as long as it's compensated I still don't see the big issue with crunch, specially if it's for certain amounts of time (and no, vague statements by Shreier that some people have been "crunching for years" isn't a valid argument).
I wonder where these "crunch" hating people buy, say, their Christmass present. Because every retail/warehouse worker I've ever talked to has to put in overtime in December.
Anyway, as long as it's compensated I still don't see the big issue with crunch, specially if it's for certain amounts of time (and no, vague statements by Shreier that some people have been "crunching for years" isn't a valid argument).
I wonder where these "crunch" hating people buy, say, their Christmass present. Because every retail/warehouse worker I've ever talked to has to put in overtime in December.
CthulhuPL
Member
Pure bullshit. Crunch exist in many jobs. If you don't like it, change the job or deal with it. Sure, in an ideal world there would be no crunch but also there should be no job at all. Last year I did 60 "crunch" hours within one month (I work at the backoffice in the bank) and so what? Who cares? I've got paid for them. I'm sure CDP workers will be fine and will be paid well for this sacrifice. To all those people like Jim, who never, NEVER had to do overhours in their job, please tell me where you work or hire me. Otherwise just shut the fuck up! This is how the world spins, it's ugly. Who cares?
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CthulhuPL
Member
Also, if those CDPR workers are employed in Poland, then by Polish law, they have to be paid for their overhours. And given their income as a IT, programmer etc., they will be paid very well. OR the may take a leave which will be a very nice after this crunch thing. I would prefer to be paid. Sometimes people forget that CDP is a company after all, a company that needs to be profitable... Show me a big corporation that does everything right and cares 100% for their employees. There is none. This looks like a start of a which hunt, a wild hunt if you know what i mean 
Musky_Cheese
Banned
I'm sorry but most workers experience crunch of some kind. Deadlines happen.
In fact, don't most of these self employed youtubers experience this when trying to get content out? Covering E3 or other conferences?
Retail workers experience things similar in the holiday shopping season. Hell even toll collectors experience it in heavy travel weekends.
In fact, don't most of these self employed youtubers experience this when trying to get content out? Covering E3 or other conferences?
Retail workers experience things similar in the holiday shopping season. Hell even toll collectors experience it in heavy travel weekends.
The issue here is it goes against what Red said, that this won’t happen...... but it’s what a month or so of working extra? Smash it out and get some extra money. Sometimes I need to do the same at my work when a project is nearing completion, me and the workmates just hunker down and get it done and work a few weekends if we need too, we get paid time and a half for it and it adds up to our annual leave, the boss will shout us some Uber eats etc. We get it done, then reward yourself with the extra dosh.
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Explosive Zombie
Banned
Didn't the crunch work out to just them work 6 days a week? I mean I used to do that while working in a fucking grocery store, lol.
GhostOfTsu
Banned
Developpers themselves don't even care about this but journalists and people who want to pirate games in good conscience do.
Crunch? Good! Let me "boycott" (pirate) the game then.
Developers can organize if they want to do something about it. I don't care about their working conditions. I work overtime too. No one is crying for me.
Crunch? Good! Let me "boycott" (pirate) the game then.
Developers can organize if they want to do something about it. I don't care about their working conditions. I work overtime too. No one is crying for me.
Piku_Ringo
Banned
I think that might be a bit too much work for ol' Jimbo.
Xenon
Member
I think this is a necessary conversation. And there are more than enough examples of corporate abuse in this space . Unfortunately people like Jim and Jason earn a living by becoming victim advocates. So they're predisposed to see the companies as villainous. Their fans demand it.
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VincentMatts
Member
Ive worked in software and game development and crunch (from time to time) is inevitable. Maybe theyll even get a % of the profits too. For one month, and a % of profits, id do it without hesitation.
People make it seem like employees are always against it. Theyre not. We obviously prefer to avoid it when possible, but if the company makes it worth it and its only for one month, most people wont really complain. Especially knowing that after, youll be able to take extra time off for the holidays.
People make it seem like employees are always against it. Theyre not. We obviously prefer to avoid it when possible, but if the company makes it worth it and its only for one month, most people wont really complain. Especially knowing that after, youll be able to take extra time off for the holidays.
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midasmulligan
Member
Just like he’ll continue to use his MacBook, iphone, glasses, and clothes that have all been humanely crafted by a highly compensated work force in open office environments....
Maybe It's Medicine?
Member
I wish I lived in a land of rainbows and fairies where mandatory overtime wasn't necessary and nobody ever had to work outside of what is convenient for them. Unfortunately here in the real world, when people need to turn your power back on at 3am after lighting storm on a hot summer night, they fucking do it and these same unicorns from sugargum drop land don't complain.
Now Cyberpunk 2077 isn't electricity or water. But there is still an element of needing this game out on the date they have chosen. They needed to get all their prelaunch affairs in order, commercials etc. Somebody didn't want to delay it an extra week. They didn't want to disappoint fans. I don't know what is fully going on business side, neither do the people complaining. All I do know is this is being blown out of proportion and it's not taking in actual testimony from workers or benefits they might receive.
Let's be real, there is an agenda against this game from woke liberals. They were desperate for this bone and they will use this ammo as effectively as they can. The truth be damned.
It's just blanket mandatory overtime (or crunch because that sounds more demeaning and is better for clicks) must be bad and here in the land of rainbows no one should ever need to work overtime or you are a nazi and you don't want to be a nazi do you? Fuck these people.
Now Cyberpunk 2077 isn't electricity or water. But there is still an element of needing this game out on the date they have chosen. They needed to get all their prelaunch affairs in order, commercials etc. Somebody didn't want to delay it an extra week. They didn't want to disappoint fans. I don't know what is fully going on business side, neither do the people complaining. All I do know is this is being blown out of proportion and it's not taking in actual testimony from workers or benefits they might receive.
Let's be real, there is an agenda against this game from woke liberals. They were desperate for this bone and they will use this ammo as effectively as they can. The truth be damned.
It's just blanket mandatory overtime (or crunch because that sounds more demeaning and is better for clicks) must be bad and here in the land of rainbows no one should ever need to work overtime or you are a nazi and you don't want to be a nazi do you? Fuck these people.
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Killer Sakoman
Member
Jim Sterling
soulbait
Member
I work in development. Not video games, but large ecommerce websites. Almost every project I have ever been on, the last 1-2 months before launch, I work extra hours to get it done and fix bugs. Now, this is not the super long crunch, sleeping under your desk crunch, but it is still "crunch". I work more hours, many times not getting paid more, and we get through it. Almost every developer I know goes through this.
There is bad crunch, which we have all heard the horror stories of (forced working through the nights/weekends, not extra pay, sleeping at the office, not seeing day light...)
There is the expected crunch (working a couple extra hours each night til dead line, working a few weekends to get it done....)
It is part of the business. Now if where I worked at expected me to work in "bad crunch" ever, I would leave. Not worth it, but having to work a few extra nights/weekends to get the job done, I expect having to do that at some point.
From what I saw was last week CD Project Red was asking their workers to work Saturdays until the game was done. Today, I saw articles saying the game has gone Gold. That does not seem like bad crunch to me (at least for the little details I have seen).
There is bad crunch, which we have all heard the horror stories of (forced working through the nights/weekends, not extra pay, sleeping at the office, not seeing day light...)
There is the expected crunch (working a couple extra hours each night til dead line, working a few weekends to get it done....)
It is part of the business. Now if where I worked at expected me to work in "bad crunch" ever, I would leave. Not worth it, but having to work a few extra nights/weekends to get the job done, I expect having to do that at some point.
From what I saw was last week CD Project Red was asking their workers to work Saturdays until the game was done. Today, I saw articles saying the game has gone Gold. That does not seem like bad crunch to me (at least for the little details I have seen).
Nickolaidas
Member
Piss off.
I worked 4 hours overtime and Saturdays for one month, resulting in 12 hours per day (a job where I was on my feet and carrying stuff, not sitting on a desk), plus 3 hours for commute, plus 6 hours of sleep, essentially leaving me with 3 hours to eat, bathe and 'rest'.
And I got 300 euros for it.
Overtime is usually paid, but the money simply isn't worth it.
I can accept a crunch period of a few weeks, but doing this for months or years on end is torture.
And those who say 'You can quit whenever you like' obviously have never been to a country/city where recession has hit hard and getting a job is basically winning the lottery.
MacReady13
Member
Or a story on his friend Zoe Quinn ripping all the hard working people who crowd funded her yet to be released game???
For what it's worth, so long as the employees are getting paid for their OT (fuck this "crunch time bullshit, this is OT) then what is the big deal?
The Skull
Member
Can't upset the clique. He might get cancelled!
Piku_Ringo
Banned
Yeah, you really don't wanna be on Quinn's hit list. Just ask the last guy.
TheMay30thMan
Member
Both of those examples are are just BS excuses for the developer to have what they want in the game. It would be nice the devs just admitted that, but being mad at one and not the other makes Jim look like an idiot. They’re the same thing.
I don’t see a problem with crunch. At all. I have to work mandatory over time 4 weeks out of the year at my job and I look forward to it. It helps with bills. Gives me a little bit of extra cash.
Denton
Member
It's funny, I literally just watched 90 minute talk with a couple of czech developers all about crunch.
Their view basically boils down to "yes it would be nice if crunch didn't happen, but games, especially those that push the envelope, are creative medium and you need deadlines to actually ever put anything out. And if you have deadlines, you will have overtime, because you can never plan perfectly."
And of course, some companies have the luxury of having unlimited money and can postpone...which can then end up in a HL3 or DNF situation, so not exactly ideal either.
Their view basically boils down to "yes it would be nice if crunch didn't happen, but games, especially those that push the envelope, are creative medium and you need deadlines to actually ever put anything out. And if you have deadlines, you will have overtime, because you can never plan perfectly."
And of course, some companies have the luxury of having unlimited money and can postpone...which can then end up in a HL3 or DNF situation, so not exactly ideal either.
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lifa-cobex
Member
The majority of any over 30 year old who works a blue collar job has been asked to do over time. It's alien to people like Jim because his fat ass has been playing dress up in front of a camera for most of his life.
Any reasoning for any character to look the way they do doesn't need any real justification. It's all fictional pixels. It either works in the game your making or it doesn't.
I imagine Jim is one of those people that feels it's an argument around artist merit.
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John2290
Member
Almost sure he's a socialist. If it were up to him we'd have a society with no video games at all and really ironically a lot of crunch for other industries that have to pick up the slack of others who slack off under a socialist system. Jim should take up life as a farmer for a few months and get some fucking perspective and realize that a job developing games even when crunching is damn cushy, with fine pay comparatively to the vast majority of others.
These people are blessed and working their passion with pay off in very timely cycles. Not many people get that renewal every few years and instead spend decades in the same office, at the same monthly, weekly or even daily cycles with no deviation or working the same daily route delivering mail or even worse sit in the same place for hours on a factory line. Developers aren't exactly ER surgeons but they are also helping people in their own way and bringing stress relief and joy to people while building new age monuments that will be remembered for decades and if we are lucky, centuries. If they don't like it, quit and take their very valuable IT skills to a 9 to 5 if it doesn't fit the lifestyle they want, where they'll get paid less and probably get low grade depression for quitting their dream job but at least they'll have four hours extra each day to maybe play a video game with their kid they'll only see on weekends after their life falls apart because their wife has left them from a lack of respect and they share a one bed room apartment with the Janitor they were friendly with at the CD project red offices. It is Warsaw after all. Jesus man. These games activists, ahem, journalists are such assholes.
jakinov
Member
They've already delayed multiple times, and they likely already have deals in place that they'd lose money to keep pushing it back. It's likely more economical to pay employees 1.5-2x to get it done now and also so that they don't get behind on future projects.
Nicktendo_
Banned
Fuck off Jim, you fat fuck.
Alebrije
Member
Got it , so do not see the drama for just some extra weeks specially if you get money for that extra time.
GetemMa
Member
I've grown bored of these stories. In the the United States, game developers earn, on average, about double the wage of the average American. They almost all get benefits and a job market that is in constant need of new blood. If they don't like where they are working, there are tons of other options for people with high level programming and art skills. Even more outside of the gaming industry.
Should a person have to put up with the current industry standard? Not necessarily, but I'm pretty sure industry unionization is a reoccurring topic at every single GDC and I'm pretty sure it is overwhelmingly rejected every single year when developers fill out those annual surveys.
So, this all just sounds like adults doing what they want to do while knowing exactly what they are getting into beforehand. I'm not going to feel sorry for them under these circumstances. Tell your sob story somewhere else.
Should a person have to put up with the current industry standard? Not necessarily, but I'm pretty sure industry unionization is a reoccurring topic at every single GDC and I'm pretty sure it is overwhelmingly rejected every single year when developers fill out those annual surveys.
So, this all just sounds like adults doing what they want to do while knowing exactly what they are getting into beforehand. I'm not going to feel sorry for them under these circumstances. Tell your sob story somewhere else.
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Tripolygon
Banned
Dystopia
If only the last of us had themes like totalitarianism, injustice and was post apocalyptic. Your justification makes no sense. The Witcher also had tons of LGBT representation. Cyberpunk theme has always had transhumanism and cybernetics and bioengineering. Individuals have the ability to be whomever they want to be. Its not about it being viewed as bad. Its about freedom and power struggle.
Please buy the game by all means but don't misrepresent what it is to make LGBT representation in the game as a bad thing. Its not.
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Alebrije
Member
Well , there it is...
That is why you do not see a CDPR worker bitching on social media about extra hours...just clickbait tweets and videos from pseudo journalists ...
