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[Puskas]

The developers get compensated for the overtime, noone is forcing them and they get a bonus when all is said and done? Then what’s the issue?

Jim should hit the treadmill because the only thing that’s ”overworking in a hostile condition” is his heart.

 

[Siri]

WHO THE FUCK CARES?

We as gamers should care.

Because, yet again, CDPR is saying one thing and doing another. Had Ubisoft or EA stated publicly that they would never make their employees crunch... and then made them crunch... everyone here would be dog-piling on them right now... and rightly so.

Why should CDPR get a pass? Their fans continually defend them when they lie like this. What makes it particularly vile this time is that, unbelievably, CDPRs fans are turning this on CDPR’s employees themselves!!

Sorry, but that’s just downright sickening. CDPR tells a lie... so let’s defend them and go after their employees instead.

Uh... no.

 

[Piku_Ringo]

Fuck off Jim, you fat fuck.

Colin with that BTFO

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Ahh yes, Jim “Capitalism Sucks” Sterling who gets to sit on his big fat soap box crying about the injustice of having to occasionally work more than 40 hours a week while he collects millions from his Patreon and YouTube subs while dressing like a clown and professing his pansexualism....such a strong progressive person

 

[Rockman33]

It is funny how it is a bad thing for every other company but for some weird reason for CDPR it is not lol

Maybe it’s because they share 10% of their profits with their employees. That’s huge! And people are getting paid OT for their time.

 

[diffusionx]

We as gamers should care.

Because, yet again, CDPR is saying one thing and doing another. Had Ubisoft or EA stated publicly that they would never make their employees crunch... and then made them crunch... everyone here would be dog-piling on them right now... and rightly so.

Why should CDPR get a pass? Their fans continually defend them when they lie like this. What makes it particularly vile this time is that, unbelievably, CDPRs fans are turning this on CDPR’s employees themselves!!

Sorry, but that’s just downright sickening. CDPR tells a lie... so let’s defend them and go after their employees instead.

Uh... no.

I don’t give a shit about crunch though.

It happens. People have to work more hours sometimes because it’s part of the job.

 

[WakeTheWolf]

This battle against crunch just promotes laziness and poor quality products because either way they will release it and cut corners. Just look at Halo it needs developers to crunch. It just seems a great way for companies to produce poor content and blame it on having to crunch.

Jim strikes me as the typical lazy person who got lucky to gather a crowd on clickbaity videos and not someone who particularly enjoys games.

Be nice to have YouTubers who are excited about upcoming games and produce quality content instead of these miserable bastards.

 

[B-universe]

We as gamers should care.

I do care.
I simply reach a different conclusion.

I care enough to respect developers as sovereign human beings, capable of making rational decisions that affect them alone without the need to get approval or supervision from a benevolent third-party. I don't feel compelled to play God with their lives, move them around like pawns, just so I can champion my political ideals of Social Justice, against their own free will. against the free will of the very people I claim to be standing by.

Someone who works in software development seems to already have dispelled the myth that developers are always against crunch. 6 extra days for 50k sounds pretty good to me. I'd take it.

But, no. You have decided that there is simply no way any developer would ever want to crunch, irrespective of their personal circumstances. Not only has Jason proven you wrong, as according to him, developers were already doing voluntary paid overtime, it seems to go against what many people have said here, and I will add my voice to, that at certain points in life, absolutely, I have crunched and under the right circumstances would definitely do it again.

Imagine me wanting to crunch and you standing in my way, waving your finger and saying "No-No, Mr. Siri has decided against it":

As a defender of the supposedly powerless and oppressed you refuse to let the powerless and oppressed run their own lives. You're saving them from themselves.

They must be so grateful.

Because, yet again, CDPR is saying one thing and doing another. Had Ubisoft or EA stated publicly that they would never make their employees crunch... and then made them crunch... everyone here would be dog-piling on them right now... and rightly so.

My position is of principle. You're free to challenge me on the supposed power dynamics between developers vis-a-vis management. My position of principle, which doesn't depend on whether we're talking Ubisoft, EA or CD Projekt RED, is this:

The employer gets to set the terms under which they'll voluntarily employ someone. The employee gets to set the terms under which they'll voluntarily accept working for someone. The two settle on a compromise, otherwise they part ways.

Employers can fire, employees can quit. Without employees, a studio is nothing, without a job an employee goes nowhere. If a studio keeps mistreating their best, their best will eventually leave and possibly work for the competition. Not the greatest of prospects for a studio. If a developer consistently underperforms, underdelivers and doesn't attempt to catch up by pouting in the hours, why should CDPR keep you? The Kindness in your eyes?

If others work harder, put in more hours and consequently their output surpasses yours quality-wise, it would be tremendously unfair for CDPR to treat you and your colleagues identically. But because managers are not troglodytes they do know that past a certain posit productivity goes down, creativity goes down and quality suffers. So it is also in their best interest to modulate your schedule.

If an employee doesn't quit, if he stays, he is de facto acknowledging that's his best deal at that point in time. Otherwise, he would leave. Ultimately, mandatory crunch is still voluntary in this fundamental sense, provided the option to quit is available at any time.

Don't like it over there?
Try to negotiate.
Go on strike.
Quit.
Start your own indie studio.
Stay at home watching Netflix.

Choose.
That's what being an adult means.

Why should CDPR get a pass?

Because at least for those who prize the voluntary bass for human interactions, CDPR is within their right to set the terms under which they'll continue paying your salary? Don't like it? Quit.

Same applies to EA and Ubisoft.

Their fans continually defend them when they lie like this.

Hopefully you understand what a lie is.

If they said something back in 2019 that directly contradicts what they're doing in 2020, that doesn't necessarily mean they already knew back then they would be doing this and that therefore they were deliberately misleading people, i.e., lying.

Circumstances change. The unforeseen happens.
You adjust, you adapt.

That makes it particularly vile this time is that, unbelievably, CDPRs fans are turning this on CDPR’s employees themselves!!

Quote people blaming crunch on employees.

Sorry, but that’s just downright sickening. CDPR tells a lie... so let’s defend them and go after their employees instead.

Uh... no.

In what way are people here "going after the employees"? By celebrating the fact that, apparently, they'll be making 50k when the annual average in Poland is around 15k euros (source)?

Is that your notion of "going after employees"?

 

[junguler]

i understand you guys want to play the game you are hyped for and that was delayed multiple times but it's not worth it if the people making it are going to suffer for it., physically and/or mentally. think of them as your family, you wouldn't want them to go thru all that pressure even if it was good for them financially, at least that's how i feel.

 

[Arun1910]

People need to stop crying about this. Developers crunch all the time. The fact they are crunching for 6 weeks is not unheard of at all unless you aren't a developer. It's a different type of job, we are used to it.

 

[sleepingbear]

i understand you guys want to play the game you are hyped for and that was delayed multiple times but it's not worth it if the people making it are going to suffer for it., physically and/or mentally. think of them as your family, you wouldn't want them to go thru all that pressure even if it was good for them financially, at least that's how i feel.

And how do you know they are not ok with this or that they are suffering mentally and/or physically?

Aren't you people tired of perpetually getting offended on behalf of someone else?

And yes this is definitely more about you people 'feelings' than those of the actual devs who might actually be happy to make more money

 

[ColdAfternoon]

I'm a software developer and I haven't done any over time in over 10 years. Some voices here think it's normal, or maybe even unavoidable if you want do create something great but I beg to differ.

In any large organization, crunch is just a failure in management and nothing more. This is how you lose your senior devs.

 

[butane bob]

The developers get compensated appropriately

They absolutely do not. What's worse is if games don't reach a target score on metacritic, publishers refuse to pay bonuses or overtime. It's built into a lot of contracts.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

i understand you guys want to play the game you are hyped for and that was delayed multiple times but it's not worth it if the people making it are going to suffer for it

how are they "suffering"? they are being paid for this, correct? they are voluntarily signing on to do these jobs, correct? it is a free country, if they want to do this and wreck their bodies it's their choice. they aren't harming other people. they aren't outright killing themselves. so it's fine with me.

think of them as your family, you wouldn't want them to go thru all that pressure even if it was good for them financially, at least that's how i feel.

if my brother got a job and was going to crunch to make a bunch of money quickly, i would say, hell yeah, good luck, man. you do you.

i think my main problem with the whole "oh the poor devs" take is that it frames them totally as a victim. as if they have no say in the matter. these are people who choose to do this, who worked hard for the opportunity to do this. they are apparently fine with it. has any CDPR dev actually spoken up? why should we assume they are all not getting anything out of the experience? it seems infantilizing, this way of victimizing the devs.

frankly, it's also insanely low on the list of things i should care about. if we want to worry about exploiting workers involved in our electronics, there are far worse things going on than some guy in California having to work weekends for a couple months.

 

[junguler]

And how do you know they are not ok with this or that they are suffering mentally and/or physically?
Aren't you people tired of perpetually getting offended on behalf of someone else?
And yes this is definitely more about you people 'feelings' than those of the actual devs who might actually be happy to make more money

who is this "you people" you talk about? don't judge me, you don't know me.
i'm not offended, just stating my opinion

 

[GHG]

They absolutely do not. What's worse is if games don't reach a target score on metacritic, publishers refuse to pay bonuses or overtime. It's built into a lot of contracts.

They do.

Like every other market they will get paid in accordance with other similarly skilled developers (regardless of whether they work locally or remotely), it's all based on supply and demand.

If they aren't happy with the compensation then they can try:

• a different industry
• a different company
• a different location
• a different line of work

or

• if they are looking for the big pay day that their bosses get they can think about taking a risk and go out there and do it on their own

Like you said, certain things are built into contracts. If you don't like what's written then don't sign.

 

[junguler]

how are they "suffering"? they are being paid for this, correct? they are voluntarily signing on to do these jobs, correct? it is a free country, if they want to do this and wreck their bodies it's their choice. they aren't harming other people. they aren't outright killing themselves. so it's fine with me.
if my brother got a job and was going to crunch to make a bunch of money quickly, i would say, hell yeah, good luck, man. you do you.
i think my main problem with the whole "oh the poor devs" take is that it frames them totally as a victim. as if they have no say in the matter. these are people who choose to do this, who worked hard for the opportunity to do this. they are apparently fine with it. has any CDPR dev actually spoken up? why should we assume they are all not getting anything out of the experience? it seems infantilizing, this way of victimizing the devs.
frankly, it's also insanely low on the list of things i should care about. if we want to worry about exploiting workers involved in our electronics, there are far worse things going on than some guy in California having to work weekends for a couple months.

i don't know how they feel because i haven't talked to them, but overworking is not good for anyone, even if they are doing it willingly and with not outside pressure.

 

[Madflavor]

Fuck off Jim, you fat fuck.

$50k is about what I make a year at my job, and that's just a bonus for these people. So 6 straight weeks of working 6 days a week, and their reward for the extra hard labor is overtime, and $50k in bonus.

Yeah fuck off to every train hopping fucking idiot who wants to cry foul on this one. Do you realize how many people who are jobless right now, would fucking kill to be able to work 6 days a week right now and make that kind of money? Poor poor employees driving their new sports cars after working under such abusive conditions.

 

[GHG]

$50k is about what I make a year at my job, and that's just a bonus for these people. So 6 straight weeks of working 6 days a week, and their reward for the extra hard labor is overtime, and $50k in bonus.

Yeah fuck off to every train hopping fucking idiot who wants to cry foul on this one. Do you realize how many people who are jobless right now, would fucking kill to be able to work 6 days a week right now and make that kind of money? Poor poor employees driving their new sports cars after working under such abusing conditions.

The people whining want to get money without working simply because "rich corporations".

Jim Sterling profits from that subset of people. I don't think he of all people believes the shit he puts out there.

I have no doubt in my mind that he was once crunching his arse off when he started his own Youtube channel (he might even still crunch today if he doesn't have any outside help).

 

[Siri]

I'm a software developer and I haven't done any over time in over 10 years. Some voices here think it's normal, or maybe even unavoidable if you want do create something great but I beg to differ.

In any large organization, crunch is just a failure in management and nothing more. This is how you lose your senior devs.

Finally the voice of reason.

 

[DESTROYA]

Never going to watch a video from this clown but the only crunch Jim has experienced himself comes in a bowl with
captain on the front of the box.

 

[Siri]

Fuck off Jim, you fat fuck.

Evidence?

I don’t see it here?

CD PROJEKT RED - Award-winning creators of story-driven role-playing games.

Award-winning creator of story-driven role-playing games

en.cdprojektred.com

Also, name the employees who receive this $50,000 bonus? I’m highly skeptical that all 1,000 people are receiving $50,000 bonuses.

 

[EviLore]

If you want to be the best, you need to work harder than everyone else. News at 11. Sounds like they're appropriately compensated.

 

[Boneless]

• The developers get compensated appropriately
• If they don't deem the overtime to be worth it then they can leave, they are not forced to stay at the company against their will
• The game has just gone gold and will break sales records, employees are set to get a cut of this

Cry me a river.

This. Bloody soyboy industry gaming has turned into, and this thread is feeding right into it.

 

[Malakhov]

Poor developers getting paid for overtime and having a 10% bonus with launch sales. I mean, how could they do this to them

 

[Omnipunctual Godot]

Well , there it is...

That is why you do not see a CDPR worker bitching on social media about extra hours...just clickbait tweets and videos from pseudo journalists ...

The funnier/sadder thing is that these idiot journalists could actually cost the staff money when they never had a problem with the limited extra hours and overtime pay in the first place.

 

[zeorhymer]

Crunch is still a thing? I thought it was solved after Kotaku did their *expose*.

 

[pqueue]

The CD in Jim is "crunching Doritos".

The fat hack.

 

[oagboghi2]

It is funny how it is a bad thing for every other company but for some weird reason for CDPR it is not lol

But it's not a bad thing for every other company. Has any game ever seen a decline in sales due to crunch.

Crunch is what faux liberals on the internet love to virtue signal about when the news breaks, but the majority of consumers don't allow this story to influence the purchasing decisions.

Having to fix last minute problems is the equivalent of poor project management. Good project management would be to anticipate and forsee this kind of situations. These kind of situations are not uncommon.

My god you people use "project management" like it's a magic charm

 

[Neolombax]

Asking people to go the extra mile while compensating them is exploitative nowadays? That is part of the "project management". Its how the company deals with unexpected shit and how they make sure employees are taken care of while the shit is sorted.

 

[frostyxc]

I see the thumbnail of whatever that is in the YouTube thumbnail, and I start wistfully thinking about deep, dark wells and what can be thrown down them. I'm not sure why...

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

I'm a software developer and I haven't done any over time in over 10 years. Some voices here think it's normal, or maybe even unavoidable if you want do create something great but I beg to differ.

In any large organization, crunch is just a failure in management and nothing more. This is how you lose your senior devs.

Sounds like you may have not worked on anything ambitious for over 10 years if you've never had to clock more than 40 hrs per week as a SDE.

 

[jakinov]

They absolutely do not. What's worse is if games don't reach a target score on metacritic, publishers refuse to pay bonuses or overtime. It's built into a lot of contracts.

I don't think they withhold overtime. I've never heard of that before and I couldn't find any sources from a google search. In regards to bonuses, it's bonus money, it's not like they took a part of their salary, they literally agreed that if they can achieve XYZ, they get extra money on top of what they are owed. They don't achieve it they get nothing extra.

 

[Enjay]

I'm going to crosspost, because the video is too awful to go unnoticed.

__________________________________________

Ah, poor, Jim Sterling, the King of Strawman.

Ah, poor Jim, trying to conflate indentured servitude with a voluntary relationship between employer and employee, which the latter is free to terminate, as in, quit.

Ah, poor Jim, insinuating there's no possible principled defence of crunch. That it's just hypocritical teenagers who wouldn't be able to stand another delay rationalizing CDPR's behaviour. Poor Jim, he's probably never been exposed to proper arguments in defence of crunch down at the local pub, so he might actually believe there aren't any.

Ah, poor Jim, suggesting gamers should not trust Adam Badowski when he says developers are satisfied for the most part, because that's just what devs and management would say. Let me apply this infallible logic of Jim to Jim himself: Sure, gamers should trust Jim Sterling instead, so he can keep on making controversial videos complaining about the ills of a popular video game company, thus keeping his channel alive, right?

Ah, poor Jim, oblivious to individual rights, which extend both to developers and management. Poor Jim, can't stand the free market, because it's so unfair to poor developers. He just can't fathom other people having other values, other priorities, other goals. Please, Jim, would you accept the a possible pungent "Sorry" with which developers might apologize for not being Jim Sterling?

Ah, poor Jim, claiming that when developers can speak freely they've "describe[d] a culture of misery". Really, Jim? How would you know that? How many did? What percentage? Did you verify their claims? How did you verify the claims?

Ah, poor Jim. using "Fucking" as commas, therefore he must the right. His self-righteous tone can only mean the arguments are on his side. No other possibility exists. Workers must unionize. Why oh why won't developers listen to Jim once and for all? Who could possibly distrust Jim?

In terms of quality of the arguments Jim's made, watching this video is the equivalent of inspecting a sewer.

Ah, poor Jim.

Jeez this post was as bad as a jom sterling video.

 

[njean777]

While I do not like companies exploiting people if they are fairly compensated and signed a contract well I really don't have sympathy for them. It sucks to have to work all that time, but if you are being compensated with at least PTO at the end of it then I don't see anything wrong with it. Now if they were being fully exploited then I would have problem with it, but I haven't heard of that happening in this case.

 

[gow3isben]

Pansy SJWs seriously need to grow a pair. Working 6 days a week for a month while getting overtime...boo friggin hoo

 

[dano1]

Abusing your team from the start of the game to the finish is one thing but crunch time to get it finished should be something the whole team is for!! Way overblown!!

 

[quest]

Colin with that BTFO

That is only 8000 per extra Saturday that is total slavery. Working them to the bone chaining employees to their desks. Man imagine working a whole extra 6 Saturday's for a messily 50k.

Hidden camera footage smuggled out of Poland..

 

[Golgo 13]

Fuck off Jim, you fat fuck.

Colin coming with that absolute fire. He’s the only video game person I can stand on Twitter at the moment, everyone else is %75 virtue signaling political posts and %25 game news, it’s fucking sickening.

 

[Nicktendo_]

Colin coming with that absolute fire. He’s the only video game person I can stand on Twitter at the moment, everyone else is %75 virtue signaling political posts and %25 game news, it’s fucking sickening.

Median income is a lot higher than that in Poland to be fair (more like $15,000), but obviously it varies from city to city.

Still, tech workers are going to be well above the median in Poland. His point still stands.

Will never understand these clowns who think they get to decide other people's working conditions. I've done 13 hour shifts on my feet since I was 17 years old. Have I complained about it? Of course! But did I like being able to buy a 360 and PS3 at launch at 19 and 20 years old respectively? You bet! It was all voluntary. I could have worked the mandated 37 hours a week if I wanted, but I wanted more.

Am I still doing that now? Hell no. I did my time and got rewarded accordingly, now I choose my own working hours. Work hard, get paid. It's that simple. Don't want to work so hard, find another job. I'm sure the Projekt Red devs sleep well at night basically being part of the elite in Poland

Video game "journalists" are mostly nothing more than the latte sipping class who think they can shape the world in their own image, even though 95% of them have never done a proper day's work in their lives. Giving them fewer clicks is the antidote to this madness.

 

[TheKillerStove]

i understand you guys want to play the game you are hyped for and that was delayed multiple times but it's not worth it if the people making it are going to suffer for it., physically and/or mentally. think of them as your family, you wouldn't want them to go thru all that pressure even if it was good for them financially, at least that's how i feel.

Six 6 day work weeks at the end of a 7 year development cycle isn't a crushing amount of physical or mental strain.

The Naughty Dog guys who had to sleep in the office for 6 months straight, or the Netherrealm guys who had to watch real injury videos for reference material? Yeah that's abhorrent and should be condemned totally, but six 48 hour work weeks that they get time and a half for the last 8 hours of? I've worked minimum wage jobs that demanded more of me.

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

Remember. Jim is a hypocritical cunt that doesn’t actually care about any of these issues.

Right

Don’t give the fat cunt clicks. Best to watch someone who actually stands by their principles such as no one.

Well said.

 

[Team Andromeda]

You would have thought Jim would have known how the industry works. Working long hours and 7 days a week in the Crunch period is nothing new, it even happened in the 16 bit days with the likes of Sonic Team and even the EarthWorm Jim teams working over 12 hours every day It's not nice, but it's well known, just like the long hours, Special Make-Up effects technicians work. King Ken PS team didn't even go home for weeks, in the crush period of the PS development and the SONY Music offices didn't even have shower rooms, at least SEGA's R&D team had a shower room

JIM's lost it of late.

 

[ruvikx]

Imagine watching TV/playing games (or creating youtube videos) on hardware made in China/far east/any company with their great working conditions (insert sarcasm) or using anything else in your daily life with a "made in China or by xyz poorly paid workforce"... & ranting because a game developer is asking for some overtime from its employees before the release of their major title.

Moral of the story? Hello clown world.

 

[Stiflers Mom]

This man is so obnoxious.

 

[Kadayi]

The reason no one gives a shit is that their mandatory crunch period is 6 weeks and 6 days a week. IE 6 more days than usual (and they're getting paid for it). It's not like they're being forced to work 7 days a week for 9 months or some other BS like Naughty Dog had staff working .

Sterling is like a broken clock. Right twice a day, right occasionally, but wrong most of the time. One Note being a fan...*shocker*

 

[Phrixotrichus]

People like Sterling pretending eop crunch is something unique to the game-industry.
This is the norm for nearly all project-based work, and a mere 6 extra days with over-hour pay is absolutely fine.....

 

[sxodan]

Who the hell cares what this idiot thinks?

 

[supernova8]

Haven't watched a Jim Sterling video for quite some time. Not going to change that now. What an annoying moany cunt.

 

[cormack12]

Oh right, he took the first two letters of CDPR and then just made the acronym mean something different. Oh Jim, this is content that's worth $5 a month you little wordsmith you. Like we say Crunching Developers Provoke Reverence.

Give me money now y'all