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[davidjaffe]

Ok, before you accuse me of click-baiting you, the video is about this:

Assassin's Creed: Valhalla is a pretty dang good game.Is it Black Flag good? Not at all. But it's a good title, for sure.

Granted, I'm playing it on LUNA as part of the $15.00/month Ubi channel. If I had paid $70.00, I'd be feeling a bit diff, I'm sure.

But still: good, solid entry to the series.

Yay AC:V team!

But I just don't understand how Gamers (and reviewers, cause this damn thing sits at a 80-86% metacritic, depending on system) are down with the way this title tells its story, mainly the opening.

And AC:V isn't the only one that does this; it's just the most recent. In the last 5ish years it seems Gamers have just accepted (embraced?) long non interactive cut scenes, slow walk and talk sections, and an overall degradation in pacing.

But look, man: I'm 49 years old! Maybe this is what the kids like (lord knows these sorts of titles sell boat loads!) and perhaps I should just accept that the games that make up the modern AAA space are simply not for me/someone my age (who came up- as a Player and a designer- with gameplay first mentality).

 

[Deleted member 801069]

This game is so forgettable I honestly can’t even remember the intro

 

[Cato]

What do you mean with "long non-interactive cut-scenes" as if it is a bad thing?
Is this where you start talking shit about MGS4 ?

Man, I love your games but this is not the hill you want to die one

 

[ProgenitorCastle]

Haven't played it myself, so I'm not really in a position to speak about it's flaws. But those common recent design decisions are depressing. Makes me savor the games you mentioned in the OP, Gameplay-first mentality

 

[davidjaffe]

What do you mean with "long non-interactive cut-scenes?" as if it is a bad thing?
Is this where you start talking shit about MGS4 ?

Man, I love your games but this is not the hill you want to die one

Why in the world would I die on this hill? I'm not allowed an opinion?

MGS4- by the way- is a phenomenal game. And it's one of my favorite series.

But are the Codecs way too long? Damn straight.

And the cut scenes- especially the LAST one which- I think- is well over 45 MINUTES- made me want to blow my fucking head off.

Utter horseshit. I LOVE Kojima but the man needs an editor and a 'no man' like nobody's business.

 

[Cato]

Why in the world would I die on this hill? I'm not allowed an opinion?

MGS4- by the way- is a phenomenal game. And it's one of my favorite series.

But are the Codecs way too long? Damn straight.

And the cut scenes- especially the LAST one which- I think- is well over 45 MINUTES- made me want to blow my fucking head off.

Utter horseshit. I LOVE Kojima but the man needs an editor and a 'no man' like nobody's business.

Just joking man. You are a legend. I cant really even grasp that I am actually talking to you right now!

 

[davidjaffe]

Just joking man. You are a legend. I cant really even grasp that I am actually talking to you right now!

Dude, you should try BEING me! It really is fucking amazing .


Ahem...

 

[teezzy]

What makes you such an expert in game design OP? Another GAF couch warrior - eh?

Spoiler

lol i'm kidding

 

[-Arcadia-]

Some developers forget that people don’t want to watch a movie. People are still there to play, and when that balance gets out of skew, and they get a movie forced on them anyway, it’s annoying.

Different perspective, imagine watching the latest blockbuster, and being handed some blah mobile game (which is about the equivalent of the storytelling ability of these cutscenes) you need to beat first, before getting back to the movie you were enjoying. That’s pretty much what it’s like when it gets out of control.

I will say I don’t mind the walk and talk stuff, most recently in FF7R. I find it a passable way of doing interaction and storytelling at the same time.

 

[ZehDon]

Nah, games really lose my attention the moment they start dropping long stretches of non-interactivity on me. The earlier they start, the sooner I put down the game.

I always look at this stuff as a defeat on the part of the developer; every tutorial pop up, every long cutscene. It means they couldn’t find a way to explain the gameplay or tell their story through gameplay - which is how this stuff should always be done.

Nintendo explain all of their mechanics through gameplay pretty masterfully. Really top of the industry stuff. Story gets a bit harder - a cutscene every once in a while is fine, even necessary. But 50% of game or more just being long scripted sequences where the player does nothing? Miss me with that shit, as the kids say.

 

[killatopak]

People like tons of stuff.

Granted narrative games are what dominates the AAA space but there’s tons of games that cater to every taste there is.

 

[MrFunSocks]

GAF loves a good ol' fashioned slow walking story telling scene and non interactive talking scenes that they champion the games that even rely on essentially non interactive set pieces like uncharted where you basically just hold forwards to win any platforming section or set piece.

Wrong forum to ask. GAFs games of the forever are Uncharted and TLOU lol. The worst (best?) examples of what you're talking about.

Why in the world would I die on this hill? I'm not allowed an opinion?

MGS4- by the way- is a phenomenal game. And it's one of my favorite series.

But are the Codecs way too long? Damn straight.

And the cut scenes- especially the LAST one which- I think- is well over 45 MINUTES- made me want to blow my fucking head off.

Utter horseshit. I LOVE Kojima but the man needs an editor and a 'no man' like nobody's business.

MGS4 was utter horse shit. Barely qualifies as a game IMO. What was that ending cutscene, like 90 minutes or something? I finished the "game" in something like 4 hours of actual gameplay and like 15 of cutscenes. Worst game I've ever played, and the drebin point system meant that there was no challenge unless you intentionally tried to make the game harder by ignoring it.

 

[Blade2.0]

Do you mean this like in the RDR2 intro where you're forced to walk at a certain speed next to character talking to you and can't speed it up in any way? Yea, i fucking hate it.

 

[JimmyRustler]

The bigger question is rather if gamers really like these 100+ hour behemonts like ACV... Who has the time for this god damn it?

But yeah, these walking sections seem weird. Not sure many people like them when you consider just how many folks straight out skip story sequences - and I cannot understand why devs keep implementing this. It feels like one day ND had this idea and then everyone just sorta went along with it. Kinda like... if it works for them it'll work for us.

 

[-Arcadia-]

Will also say that if I get choices in the story, or the story has elements that I need to pay attention to for later (Witcher 3), I am much, much more amenable to long cut-scenes. Life is Strange is pretty close to just being a series of those, broken up with free-range segments, and it’s one of my favorites.

It’s taking that player interactivity away, and turning into another medium that’s the problem.

 

[Tranquil]

I like a little story but games now a days are way over doing it with the cut scenes and dialogue.

 

[Alexios]

So go play Demon's Souls or something instead, why ramble on and on and on like a child?

Ah, much better.

 

[davidjaffe]

So go play Demon's Souls or something instead, why ramble on and on and on like a child?

What is the matter with you?

 

[MrFunSocks]

I like a little story but games now a days are way over doing it with the cut scenes and dialogue.

Yet those games are the only ones that ever seem to be on GOTY voting ballots. They're the "oscar bait" of video games. Something like Forza Horizon 3 was never even in consideration for a single GOTY award on any publication yet is without doubt one of the best racing games of all time. PUBG was nowhere to be seen but is one of the biggest phenomenons in gaming. Did Minecraft even get any GOTY awards? Roblox? Fortnite?

I'm starting to think that between games like TLOU2/Uncharted 4/type games being the only games that ever get considered for GOTY, them selling really well, and the massive popularity of streamers and their "let's play"s that the newer generation of "gamers" actually want less interactivity and gameplay out of their games, and instead want a more narrative driven plays-itself type "experience". That seems to be what they talk about now - "experiences", not gameplay. They genuinely don't seem to care if the gameplay is garbage as long as the acting and music are decent (for a game) and the graphics are pretty.

 

[DonJimbo]

I wait till it's 15 bucks

 

[Darkmakaimura]

Actually I'm wondering why there's so much "skipping" during the scenes? Is that just the LUNA connection, the video feed or just some buggy stuff in-game?

Anyways yeah a lot of these more story heavy games seem to start off as like barely interactive walking sims. At least in walking sims though you're still actually doing something.

Skyrim had it's short little "looking around" intro but then shot you right into the action.

Btw what is it with this trend of making vikings and norsemen look like they just walked out of a Slayer concert?

Did I leave the iron on?

 

[teezzy]

This is all Half Life's fault.

 

[DeVeAn]

Yeah, really not a fan of forced walk sections and just having control taken away from me so frequently. My time is more valuable the older I get.

Demons Souls, now that is gameplay first. The more I play the better I get!

 

[Neko Mimi Mode]

I'm with you OP, started AC:V recently but haven't found the will/effort to progress much.

Tetris Effect: Connected though, now that game has me straight up addicted.

 

[nush]

What is the matter with you?

He's a dick. Thankfully you'll never need to interact with him again.

 

[Ar¢tos]

I'm more surprised that Ubisoft still manages to make good profit selling the same game re-skinned over and over for years. They really found the Nintendo magic formula (Mario reskins for the past 35 years...)

 

[rofif]

but black flag sucked ass. It had way too much filler and trailing missions

 

[Ryu Kaiba]

I agree completely but to be transparent I've never liked Assassins creed. I also kinda feel like a lot of people that say they like it don't REALLY like it. Feels like it's just a recognizable brand so it sells a lot. Many of ubisofts games tend to feel so soulless and factory produced to me.

 

[Cato]

davidjaffe
I want to agree on some parts but not others. Some games might have way too long cut-scenes because they do not fit the game but others might have long cut scenes and it is fine.
As before, I am a lot more tolerant to MGS4 having exceptionally long cut-scenes than some other games where I routinely click (pray it is possible) skip after only 30 seconds.

I think that is a failure of the game. If they make me want to skip the cut-scenes, sometimes even me automatically trying to skip the cut scene immediately when it starts, then it is a failure of the game. It is not interesting enough and has not hooked me.
For sure I DID skip a lot of the cut-scenes towards the end of Tsushima.
I skipped virtually every cut-scene in the second half of Days Gone.

Both great games but I just couldn't handle more cut scenes. Note, I did not feel this about MGS4 cut scenes that are WAY longer than the cut-scenes in Tsushuma or DaysGone, because the game connected with me.


I personally don't think cut-scenes are the biggest problem. A much bigger problem is that the games are nowadays padded out to be as long as possible and have as much (cut-n-pasted) content as possible.

Tsushima I think couold have skipped the third part of the island.
Days Gone should have ended after the first half and then the second area to the south should have been a DLC.
Instead in both cases it was just too much content, that mostly looked the same, and it was a slog "why doesn't it end already?"

Witcher 3 was different. While it had a "million" of sidequests it never felt stale. Every quest was different and FELT different and fresh.


So I don;t know.

TL;DR
I don;t think cut-scenes are the biggest problem with modern games. The problem is IMHO rather that they try to pad so much, cut-n-paste, content into the game that is almost never ends.
It is OK if a game ends at the 20 hour mark if that is how long it takes to tell the story. Every game does not have to be >100 hours.

 

[MiyazakiHatesKojima]

Why in the world would I die on this hill? I'm not allowed an opinion?

MGS4- by the way- is a phenomenal game. And it's one of my favorite series.

But are the Codecs way too long? Damn straight.

And the cut scenes- especially the LAST one which- I think- is well over 45 MINUTES- made me want to blow my fucking head off.

Utter horseshit. I LOVE Kojima but the man needs an editor and a 'no man' like nobody's business.

Please don't talk about my Father like that.

 

[teezzy]

For the average consumer, dropping $60 or $70 on an AAA title is a fair chunk of coin, and when they don't consume games as frequently as your typical enthusiast does, they really do appreciate the razzle dazzle spectacle of it all.

This type of thing is super effective for the type of player who only buys maybe three or so games a year, and really expects this sort of cinematic show. Hell, even I dig it sometimes, dependent on my mood.

 

[JimmyRustler]

So go play Demon's Souls or something instead, why ramble on and on and on like a child?

If you don't want to discuss shit you may as well log off here because you're missing the point of a forum.

 

[MisterBrimstone]

Nah, games really lose my attention the moment they start dropping long stretches of non-interactivity on me. The earlier they start, the sooner I put down the game.

I always look at this stuff as a defeat on the part of the developer; every tutorial pop up, every long cutscene. It means they couldn’t find a way to explain the gameplay or tell their story through gameplay - which is how this stuff should always be done.

Nintendo explain all of their mechanics through gameplay pretty masterfully. Really top of the industry stuff. Story gets a bit harder - a cutscene every once in a while is fine, even necessary. But 50% of game or more just being long scripted sequences where the player does nothing? Miss me with that shit, as the kids say.

While I do agree with this, to be fair most Nintendo stories are non-existent "HEY MARIO I BAKE A CAKE COME EAT ME ~PEACH" crap. It gets harder to tell a story when you actually have one. Doesn't mean there aren't ways or good examples, but I would put Nintendo at "good at hiding tutorials" and that's it.

 

[JimiNutz]

Some of the cut scenes are definitely excessive and it seems like certain games strive to be as 'cinematic' as possible, even during gameplay.

Personally I'm not a fan of games being so heavily inspired by cinema. Maybe game developers are striving for this because they think the wider public take games more seriously if they are similar in style to movies?

 

[teezzy]

In speaking of cinematics, I wonder if davidjaffe prefers Mr. Furley or Mr. Roper

 

[Rodolink]

Why in the world would I die on this hill? I'm not allowed an opinion?

MGS4- by the way- is a phenomenal game. And it's one of my favorite series.

But are the Codecs way too long? Damn straight.

And the cut scenes- especially the LAST one which- I think- is well over 45 MINUTES- made me want to blow my fucking head off.

Utter horseshit. I LOVE Kojima but the man needs an editor and a 'no man' like nobody's business.

exactly my feelings with Kojima, specially after Death Stranding.
I think we are at the limit on how long cinematics in games should be.
better go watch a good film instead of watching 3d representations of actors in a B tier script.
that, or devs should add all the functionalities a video player gives.
modern AAA games still feel like movie time-gameplay time-movie time-gameplay time and so on.

 

[Cato]

Nah, games really lose my attention the moment they start dropping long stretches of non-interactivity on me. The earlier they start, the sooner I put down the game.

I always look at this stuff as a defeat on the part of the developer; every tutorial pop up, every long cutscene. It means they couldn’t find a way to explain the gameplay or tell their story through gameplay - which is how this stuff should always be done.

Nintendo explain all of their mechanics through gameplay pretty masterfully. Really top of the industry stuff. Story gets a bit harder - a cutscene every once in a while is fine, even necessary. But 50% of game or more just being long scripted sequences where the player does nothing? Miss me with that shit, as the kids say.

At least you can usually skip the cut scenes.
Much worse is the trend of "you have to complete 25.000 almost identical quests into very similar/almost identical random dungeons" before you can complete the game.

 

[Rentahamster]

But look, man: I'm 49 years old! Maybe this is what the kids like (lord knows these sorts of titles sell boat loads!) and perhaps I should just accept that the games that make up the modern AAA space are simply not for me/someone my age (who came up- as a Player and a designer- with gameplay first mentality).

Don't skip this it's only 30 seconds.

 

[cireza]

These games are not for me, and more generally, I have a hard time with most of the more "cinematic" Western games. I managed to somehow play all three Tomb Raider games, but I will never launch them again. There are some nice things in these games (puzzles especially, and the action/shooting sections are okay) but everything is padded so that the game takes ages to complete, with pick-ups everywhere, useless crafting (you could be picking directly the items), don't remember if there are skill trees and fetch quests but these are generally other padding elements included in games. And of course, the story-telling that really does not have much to tell to begin with... Just make games already...

One of the most bearable game that fits this pretty sad bill was A Plague Tale. Because the story was great, and it was so heavily focused on the story, that the gameplay elements were actually a bit secondary. So if you knew you were going for a cinematic experience to begin with, this game was actually fine. Not many pick-ups, limited crafting, no stupid fetch quests. A story-driven game that actually had a good story at its center.

Problem with Western games is that most of the time, the story isn't that great, but still it is treated as if it was the most incredible stuff ever written. I don't care about Tomb Raider's story, I just want to raid tombs, explore areas, find secrets. This is the essence of the series. Lose me in a jungle and have me find my way, discover stuff, and remove all these GPS signs everywhere. I could accept crafting and skill trees if these were actually meaningful, and offer few choices that actually expand what I can do (where I can go etc...). Who cares about having 30 outfits that all look the same ? Wasted time and resources.

Outer Wild had some of the best story-telling I have seen in recent years. This game is a master-piece, and is 100% a game. Talos Principle as well. These games have story-telling that is not forced upon you.
Other games I have played that have story-telling forced upon you, and felt good are A Plague Tale and Catherine (the original game) from Atlus.
And of course visual novels, but that's another topic.

Everything else should have limited cinematics in my opinion. Such as BotW, Souls games, FF XV had actually few cinematics and I enjoyed a lot the story.

 

[The_Mike]

OP i dont get it either, but we are a minority.

The market leader in producing games makes heavy story games with long cinematics, and people praise it. I guess the other devs tries to copy the form, like every mmo dev tried to copy WoW since it got released.

 

[Methos#1975]

I'll preface this by saying AC Vahalla is one of my favorite games of the tpyear, I'm pretty addicted to it right now. But I get the disdain for how it tells it's narrative as well as many other modern games that divulge into similar trends. Maybe it's just that some developers aren't profecient enough to push a big set piece exposition while still allowing some degree of gameplay or they just might be afraid of the criticism if they do try and fail at it. ND does such big set piece scenes with gameplay elements that basically fall into quick time events and many of the good old forums fall into disdain for it, it's always a tough juggling act as I'm aware you no doubt know.

 

[Blond]

I’m just saying it’s hard to believe compared to the opening’s of both games that DMC 3 and 5 were directed by the same person. So many cutscenes compared to open each games with straight up action that acted as tutorials was way better than the way they opened up 5, to the point I skipped most cutscenes in the game.

 

[davidjaffe]

For the average consumer, dropping $60 or $70 on an AAA title is a fair chunk of coin, and when they don't consume games as frequently as your typical enthusiast does, they really do appreciate the razzle dazzle spectacle of it all.

This type of thing is super effective for the type of player who only buys maybe three or so games a year, and really expects this sort of cinematic show. Hell, even I dig it sometimes, dependent on my mood.

Interesting. That's a pretty good point. If the majority of the consumers for games like this are indeed 'casual core' then I could see them being excited at all the razzle dazzle. That sucks for me personally but sure, if the stats show millions are 'casual core' and they love this stuff, then hell, if I was running UBISOFT, I'd do the same shit (well, except for the sexual harassment stuff and the toxic environment bit)...

 

[Redlancet]

Nintendo explain all of their mechanics through gameplay pretty masterfully. Really top of the industry stuff. Story gets a bit harder - a cutscene every once in a while is fine, even necessary. But 50% of game or more just being long scripted sequences where the player does nothing? Miss me with that shit, as the kids say.

of course,they are doing the same thing over and over since the nineties,they have mastered that,what histories nintendo games have to told? modern games have a big narrative part,and i like that,arcade days being the norm are long gone

 

[davidjaffe]

of course,they are doing the same thing over and over since the nineties,they have mastered that,what histories nintendo games have to told? modern games have a big narrative part,and i like that,arcade days being the norm are long gone

I'm not pushing for arcade games (altho they are nice).

I love story and IP. I just want to it be something I experience vs. watch.

And if the only way to tell the story is to watch it, perhaps it's not a good candidate for a video game story. A lot of books are amazing but movie studios don't touch them because they can't find a way to wrap the cinematic medium around them. It seems like game stories need that same level of scrutiny (i.e. does our medium tell THIS story well?) before greenlights are handed out.

 

[teezzy]

Interesting. That's a pretty good point. If the majority of the consumers for games like this are indeed 'casual core' then I could see them being excited at all the razzle dazzle. That sucks for me personally but sure, if the stats show millions are 'casual core' and they love this stuff, then hell, if I was running UBISOFT, I'd do the same shit (well, except for the sexual harassment stuff and the toxic environment bit)...

I was really hoping you responded to my question about your preferred Three's Company landlord, but thank you lol.

 

[davidjaffe]

In speaking of cinematics, I wonder if davidjaffe prefers Mr. Furley or Mr. Roper

Dude, I'm still pissed they replaced Suzanne Somers with Chrissy.

And don't get me started on the removal of Farrah for Cheryl Ladd on Charlie's Angels. I mean COME THE FUCK ON!!!

 

[Marcus Aurelius]

davidjaffe Do you still make games? Or are you planning to get back into it?

 

[MilkyJoe]

Some do, interactive movies /walkie talkies are not really games, it's just a shame they are so abundant these days.

 

[MacReady13]

I’m about 3 hours into the game so far. Enjoying playing it on PS5 at 60fps but yes, those fucking unskippable cut scenes can fuck off and die. And that goes for ANY game, but especially at the start of this game. We want to play, not watch.