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So with Nvidia buying ARM, could PS6 or XBox actually go Nvidia?

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Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
I don't think so. It's pretty clear that AMD has been a great partner and x86 has been good for the traditional consoles. Not sure why they would suddenly shift gears back to being energy efficiency-conscious machines.
 
It makes it more likely, but I would still put the probability of Sony or Microsoft going that way as pretty low. It would be a totally different architecture, and x86 software has almost always had to be emulated on ARM chips. It would make backwards compatibility extremely difficult, unless of course it was far more powerful than anything Intel or AMD was offering. If you want to talk about future Nintendo consoles, well that might be different.....
 

johntown

Banned
Sure it is possible but AMD has had that market locked for a while. If NVIDIA offers a better deal maybe it could happen. Not really sure if anyone can really say for sure except and insider.
 

LordOfChaos

Member
I think BC will make them stick to x86 for at least the 10th gen. Emulation across ISAs would be too imperfect (microsoft's version actually just downloads a recompiled version to your console, not translation)
 

Xyphie

Member
People know nVidia has had ARM+GPU SoCs for over a decade right? They already make high-powered ARM+nVidia SoCs without acquiring ARM.

They could have probably made a bid using standard ARMv8 cores + nVidia GPU for the PS4/XBO if they wanted to. Going with AMD likely just came down to pricing.
 

diffusionx

Gold Member
Nvidia has nothing to do with it. If ARM is a better solution for vidya consoles next time around, and it may be, then they will go with an ARM design. But that CPU/SOC can come from a lot of different people - even AMD. Even MS is working on an ARM chip now.

ARM just puts out chip designs and licenses them out, and that isn't changing with Nvidia ownership. Nvidia will put out ARM chips, Apple will put out ARM chips, Qualcomm will put out ARM chips.

It makes it more likely, but I would still put the probability of Sony or Microsoft going that way as pretty low. It would be a totally different architecture, and x86 software has almost always had to be emulated on ARM chips. It would make backwards compatibility extremely difficult, unless of course it was far more powerful than anything Intel or AMD was offering. If you want to talk about future Nintendo consoles, well that might be different.....

If Apple's recent work is any indication, then it wouldn't be extremely difficult. Apple is running x86 apps estimated about 20% slower than native, so if your CPU is 25% faster, it evens out.
 
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Rikkori

Member
Compared to what AMD can offer with Zen and RDNA as a APU, what could Nvidia do with an ARM and RTX combo?

Could an ARM CPU outdo a x86 Zen 6 part for gaming?

Could Nvidia produce an APU with ARM and RTX?

1) They could only do worse.

2) No.

3) Yes.

#1 reason why this won't happen above all others is that Nvidia is an awful company to partner with while AMD is a great one. Never underestimate the human element to business. Though a major factor as to why it wouldn't happen is also that it would destroy BC and require a TON of work to bring back and it would also require a LOT of re-tooling for ARM in the first place. So why bother? There's literally no reason to do this.
 

Rikkori

Member
You say this like PCs will not be shifting/shifted to ARM by then.


This is why: https://www.tomsguide.com/news/macbook-pro-m1-benchmarks-are-in-and-they-destroy-intel

They won't, and Nvidia isn't Apple. By the time the merger goes through (IF it does) consoles will already be in design. Remember you still have to take time into account, I'm not talking hypotheticals I'm talking real world bizness shit. Things don't happen just because it would be "cool" to do. Gotta make money to make sense.

Rich Don Cheadle GIF by Showtime
 

quest

Not Banned from OT
No way nvidia wants way to much money and screwed over both Microsoft and Sony badly in the past. AMD is willing to work for much less money and has a good relationship with both. Let's not forget the only reason Nintendo is using nvidia is they had chips no one else wanted so were reasonable with. A full fledged nvidia console they would charge through the nose with a bad contract.
 

PhaseJump

Banned
It won't happen unless Windows for ARM somehow takes off without killing performance in legacy applications and tools. Emulation of x86 will need to be better than ever. Microsoft customers would need to see massive cost/performance gains to go down that rabbit hole, and Microsoft would need to build out new enterprise hardware to run xCloud under VMs that perform better than the integrated Xbox chips they have already pursued to leverage costs.

Not going to happen without moving heaven and earth, for no benefit or reason right now.

Apple made the switch because they are more than happy bending over their own customer base, breaking their own legacy software while charging a premium price. The ARM switch lets them obfuscate direct comparison just like they did last time they were using risc processors.

Intel is figuratively lazy and pushed back on it's heels right now. That's all that is happening.
 
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diffusionx

Gold Member
They won't, and Nvidia isn't Apple. By the time the merger goes through (IF it does) consoles will already be in design. Remember you still have to take time into account, I'm not talking hypotheticals I'm talking real world bizness shit. Things don't happen just because it would be "cool" to do. Gotta make money to make sense.

Rich Don Cheadle GIF by Showtime

They wouldn't be doing it because it is cool, they would do it because it offers higher performance at the chosen budget - same reason why they choose a design always (which just happens to be x86 at the moment).

If you don't think that the console makers are exploring the possibility of putting ARM into their next gen systems, I don't know what to tell you. They definitely are. Microsoft is designing an ARM chip for servers and possibly their own devices. AMD is working on ARM CPUs as well. This is a real shift in the industry.

That doesn't mean they will do it, but it's definitely on the table, especially for a console not do out for 5-8 years.
 
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Moogle11

Banned
I doubt that will be enough as backwards compatibility is such a huge focus now and will continue to be so as people build larger and larger libraries of digital games (both through purchases and things like adding "free" games to their accounts).

If they can get BC working for little to no extra cost with switching away from x86 architecture, then that's a moot point of course. But we've seldom seen robust BC be a thing with shifts in architecture in the past.
 
Nvidia is unwilling to accept low margins, so it would make consoles absurdly expensive.
Also both Sony and Microsoft have been burned by Nvidia. Microsoft with the original Xbox, and Sony with the PS3.
 

Entroyp

Member
Only if MS or Sony are willing to pick up chips from Nvidia’s scrap dumpster and pay handsomely for them. Like Nintendo did.
 
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Boss Mog

Member
No chance. Both brands want an Apple like ecosystem which means complete backward compatibility so they will stick with x86.
 

00_Zer0

Member
I brought this up in another thread recently, but Nvidia got greedy and overpriced their graphics technology in the OG XBox and PS3. MS and Sony got screwed over by Nvidia in the console space in a big way.

Even if Nvidia gave MS and Sony a sweetheart deal on a supposed Arm GPU, I seriously doubt the trust would be there to allow Nvidia to do business with them in the console space ever again.

Nvidia gave Nintendo a sweetheart deal with the Tegra chip, but if Nvidia gets cocky and overprices the Switch 2 technology then Iook for Nintendo to drop them just like MS and Sony did.
 

kyliethicc

Member
I doubt it because Nvidia would charge a lot more than AMD. Almost no one partners with Nvidia for very long, they don't seem great to work with.

Sony and Microsoft use AMD cause they get good deals on the price of the chips. Plus there's the whole X86 thing, back compat, etc.
 

diffusionx

Gold Member
No chance. Both brands want an Apple like ecosystem which means complete backward compatibility so they will stick with x86.
you mean like Apple did?

the Xbox One is x86 but the 360 is not - this is a solvable problem. They’re not wedded to x86 forever.
 

Woo-Fu

Banned
Nvidia could have won any console deal of the last 2 generations. They weren't interested in margins that low. They will continue to not be interested in margins that low, at least when it comes to console volumes.
 
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Boss Mog

Member
you mean like Apple did?

the Xbox One is x86 but the 360 is not - this is a solvable problem. They’re not wedded to x86 forever.
Yes and that's why they decided to stick with x86, to avoid having to resort to emulation ever again. They're fully committed to x86 long term. Multiplatform devs also prefer if everybody uses x86, makes it easier to develop.Obviously they can port games to ARM, we've seen it on Switch but those ports have mostly released after the PS4/XB1 versions.
 

diffusionx

Gold Member
Yes and that's why they decided to stick with x86, to avoid having to resort to emulation ever again. They're fully committed to x86 long term. Multiplatform devs also prefer if everybody uses x86, makes it easier to develop.Obviously they can port games to ARM, we've seen it on Switch but those ports have mostly released after the PS4/XB1 versions.
No, there are no definites or nevers here. If a better tech comes along (and ARM sure looks like one) they’ll use it. Like I said MS is developing their own ARM chips for servers which is a massive undertaking and with a much bigger market than consoles.
 

Fake

Member
Probably not. AMD is very cheap in comparison with Nvidia, not to mention AMD can supply most of the components.
 
There are rumors AMD is working on arm cpus.

The big problem is for intel, microsoft is working on arm cpus for its surface line, apple is using arm cpus for their laptops and soon for their mainstream pcs. To be competitive with apple it is likely that pc makers will move to arm too. If microsoft and apple support arm, and if nvidia arm cpus are compatible with amd arm cpus and windows that will be the death of x86 and intel will be in big trouble.
 

McHuj

Member
NVIDIA hasn’t bought ARM yet. It’s still subject to all countries approving and I can see China not allowing it to go throughw
 

Trimesh

Banned
Can someone tell me why arm is so good? I don't understand the difference.

The biggest advantage is lower power consumption. Both in the CPU core and the memory subsystem because ARM requires less memory bandwidth for a given level of performance than an architecture like x86 does. This is largely down to the way that ARM uses a load-store architecture where most operations are between internal CPU registers and x86 has an old-school CISC architecture where many instructions operate between registers and memory, which obviously involves memory access cycles.

The x86 also has a lot more overhead because it's processing CISC type instructions but executing them in heavily pipelined RISC type execution units - this basically forces the CPU to decompose the instructions into simpler elements, resolve any scheduling conflicts and then dispatch them for execution. This is being done at run-time inside the CPU. The equivalent steps on a RISC CPU are carried out once, by the compiler, which obviously doesn't have any effect on run-time power consumption.

This is especially significant for Apple because they are heavily focused on making their machines very small and thin - which means that often the ultimate limit on the available performance is imposed by cooling - so a chip that uses less energy will enable more performance in the same chassis, along with longer battery life.
 

PhaseJump

Banned
Same performance at much lower power. Watch comparisons between the new ARM vs Intel MACs.
This is true, and the argument for switching comes back to the cost of keeping x86 support around.

From what I've seen on LTT though, Apple didn't even cool the last Intels in their Macbooks properly and they were throttling back performance compared to similar PCs. So the new and improved ARM Macbooks will look a lot better to the consumer who doesn't know any better, just because they choked performance the last time.
 

Kumomeme

Member
still gonna depend on how much Nvidia offer. previous gen the company offered expensive deal so both MS and Sony go for AMD.

not to mention even AMD currently developing their own arm cpu.
 
This is especially significant for Apple because they are heavily focused on making their machines very small and thin - which means that often the ultimate limit on the available performance is imposed by cooling - so a chip that uses less energy will enable more performance in the same chassis, along with longer battery life.
Even in full tower pcs threadrippers and intel cpus are reaching cooling limits. Multicore high performance arm will likely outperform x86 in full towers too.
 

godhandiscen

There are millions of whiny 5-year olds on Earth, and I AM THEIR KING.
I think it is possible, but I don‘t think Sony would want to fuck with backwards compatibility from one processor architecture to another once again.
 
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Black_Stride

do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
ARM is the future.
Nextgen machines are still likely to be AMD + AMD, whether thats with ARM arch or not is the real question.
 

FStubbs

Member
Nvidia could have won any console deal of the last 2 generations. They weren't interested in margins that low. They will continue to not be interested in margins that low, at least when it comes to console volumes.
I don't know - IIRC part of the reason they partnered with Nintendo for the Switch was because they wanted a presence in the console market.
 

quest

Not Banned from OT
I don't know - IIRC part of the reason they partnered with Nintendo for the Switch was because they wanted a presence in the console market.
They had a crummy old chips no one else wanted and needed to unload. That is why they partnered with Nintendo not like they got a remotely cutting edge SOC. If Microsoft and Sony want a over priced old design I am sure nvidia would be happy to deliver see the ps3 GPU.
 

Entroyp

Member
I don't know - IIRC part of the reason they partnered with Nintendo for the Switch was because they wanted a presence in the console market.

Didn’t they partnered for one of the Nintendo DS handhelds? I think that’s why they worked together for the switch.

Edit: My memory is fuzzy but I think none of the DS handhelds had nvidia chips in it.
 
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