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Game of Thrones' George RR Martin confirms 'different direction' for end of book series

bitbydeath

Gold Member
Good, maybe someone will adapt it properly later on.
"I had a five-book head-start and these are gigantic books as you know; I never thought they would catch up with me but they did.

"They caught up with me and passed me and you know, that made it a little strange because now the show was ahead of me and the show was going in somewhat different directions so I'm still working on the book but you'll see my ending when that comes out."
 
"so I'm still working on the book"

tenor.gif
 

BadBurger

Many “Whelps”! Handle It!
The hero of the story IMO is Raymun Fossoway. If you read the stories of Dunk and Egg, which occur a good ninety years prior to the events of ASoIaF, you learn that young Raymun was the only person of noble birth to first raise arms for Duncan - who was forced into a trial by combat with some hellish Targ prince. His standing up led House Baratheon to also take up arms for Duncan, and in doing so led to him winning and eventually Rhaegar being born and Jon Snow coming about and saving the world. His act of defiance forced him to build a new house known as the New Barrell Fossoways, or the "green apples".

They're barely mentioned in the books proper but totally made everything we have read possible. The story never would have happened if brave Ser Raymun hadn't been around.
 

DKehoe

Member
Never read the books, but so far, is Dani's heel turn better telegraphed ahead?
Yeh, Dany's story has been about her trying to balance her mother side along with her conqueror side, thinking of herself as the benevolent ruler but actually finding herself drawn more towards being the conqueror.

In the 5th book, like in the show, one of her dragons eats a kid. So she locks away the two that are with her (Drogon has gone off on his own for a bit by this point). At the end of the book she has left Mereen on Drogon's back and is out in this grass plain. She realises that she can't actually remember the name of the kid who died anymore, it's no longer important to her because on some level she doesn't really care about it as much as she thought. She has these visions where she's told by figures from her past that she's forgotten who she really is. A lot of Dany's story has been about her figuring out whether she's this benevolent "Mhysa"/mother figure or is she a "fire and blood" conqueror. Her story in Mereen was about what happens when she actually tries to settle down and rule somewhere rather than just going from place to place conquering them through force. What she finds is that she doesn't enjoy maintaining peace, it's unsatisfying and requires you to make compromises with people you don't like rather than just getting your way. Reading about her time in Mereen is frustrating, something Martin has confirmed he did intentionally, because it feels like Dany is stuck there doing nothing when we want her to be out burning shit up. Like with Dany, we the readers might think we want peace but Dany getting what she wants through force is a lot simpler and more satisfying.

While she's out on that grass plain she sees an illusion of Jorah out on the plain and has this exchange:

"Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words. "

“Fire and Blood,” Daenerys told the swaying grass.

Dany's not about settling down and doing things for the long term, like planting trees. Much easier to just burn shit and make people bend the knee.

One of the recurring themes in Dany's story is her thinking about "the house with the red door" which is somewhere she grew up and is this symbol for her longing for that sense of home. In the first book she thinks about going "home" to Kings Landing, a place she's never actually been, and pictures it like this.

But it was not the plains Dany saw then. It was King’s Landing and the great Red Keep that Aegon the Conqueror had built. It was Dragonstone where she had been born. In her mind’s eye they burned with a thousand lights, a fire blazing in every window. In her mind’s eye, all the doors were red.

Not exactly hard to figure out the foreshadowing of why there's a fire blazing in every window and all the doors were red.

People have been speculating for years that Dany will end up burning down King's Landing. So it wasn't a huge shock when she did it. The show's problem was that they really didn't build it up like the books did because the show can't portray her inner monologue. Also the show has a track record of sanding off the rough edges of the main characters to remove elements that made them less likeable. Tyrion is the biggest example of this but they did it with Dany too. So when the time came her deciding to burn King's Landing felt like it came out of nowhere.
 
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we will never get the ending so whatever.

maybe we'll get Winds of Winter but we'll forever be dreaming of spring unless someone comes in after George dies and finishes it off like Sanderson done for Jordan with Wheel of Time. but apparently George doesn't want that to happen. Dude has made his money but i think it's shitty to not want someone to finish it off after he dies.
 
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Yeh, Dany's story has been about her trying to balance her mother side along with her conqueror side, thinking of herself as the benevolent ruler but actually finding herself drawn more towards being the conqueror.

In the 5th book, like in the show, one of her dragons eats a kid. So she locks away the two that are with her (Drogon has gone off on his own for a bit by this point). At the end of the book she has left Mereen on Drogon's back and is out in this grass plain. She realises that she can't actually remember the name of the kid who died anymore, it's no longer important to her because on some level she doesn't really care about it as much as she thought. She has these visions where she's told by figures from her past that she's forgotten who she really is. A lot of Dany's story has been about her figuring out whether she's this benevolent "Mhysa"/mother figure or is she a "fire and blood" conqueror. Her story in Mereen was about what happens when she actually tries to settle down and rule somewhere rather than just going from place to place conquering them through force. What she finds is that she doesn't enjoy maintaining peace, it's unsatisfying and requires you to make compromises with people you don't like rather than just getting your way. Reading about her time in Mereen is frustrating, something Martin has confirmed he did intentionally, because it feels like Dany is stuck there doing nothing when we want her to be out burning shit up. Like with Dany, we the readers might think we want peace but Dany getting what she wants through force is a lot simpler and more satisfying.

While she's out on that grass plain she sees an illusion of Jorah out on the plain and has this exchange:



Dany's not about settling down and doing things for the long term, like planting trees. Much easier to just burn shit and make people bend the knee.

One of the recurring themes in Dany's story is her thinking about "the house with the red door" which is somewhere she grew up and is this symbol for her longing for that sense of home. In the first book she thinks about going "home" to Kings Landing, a place she's never actually been, and pictures it like this.



Not exactly hard to figure out the foreshadowing of why there's a fire blazing in every window and all the doors were red.

People have been speculating for years that Dany will end up burning down King's Landing. So it wasn't a huge shock when she did it. The show's problem was that they really didn't build it up like the books did because the show can't portray her inner monologue. Also the show has a track record of sanding off the rough edges of the main characters to remove elements that made them less likeable. Tyrion is the biggest example of this but they did it with Dany too. So when the time came her deciding to burn King's Landing felt like it came out of nowhere.

What your saying is the series should still be running instead of the 7 episode botch job of the final season. We should have got an entire season of desperate fight to stop the Night King reaching Kings Landing instead of one episode.
 
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DKehoe

Member
What your saying is the series should still be running instead of the 7 episode botch job of the final season. We should have got an entire season of desperate fight to stop the Night King reaching Kings Landing instead of o e episode.
I think the issue (well, one of the issues) with the show was we know that at some point Martin sat down with them and told them what happens at the end. But because the show had made some different choices earlier on they weren't taking the same path he is to get there so it ends up feeling a lot clumsier. So he will have told them "and then Dany burns down Kings Landing" and now they have to do that but they haven't been laying the groundwork for it. The same with Bran, for show watchers King Bran kinda came out of nowhere. But that's because Benioff and Weiss really weren't all that interested in the character. He disappears for a whole season after all which is not something they'd have ever considered doing with Tyrion, Dany, Jon or a bunch of others. Whereas Bran has always been a big part of the story for Martin. Bran was the first character he came up with when he conceived the series and he's talked about putting a lot of work into making sure Bran's chapters feel just right.

I think the show would have been better off if they had just done their own thing entirely. Them trying to crowbar in what's going to be the end state of the books just felt really clumsy. It'd be like you were writing a murder mystery show and you plot out Character X to be the killer. Then when you sit down to write the last episode someone tells you that Character Y has to be killer so you need to write the script to be about that. Yeh, you could do it, but it's going to feel awkward.
 

MudoSkills

Volcano High Alumnus (Cum Laude)
This changes nothing really does it? Different journey, same destination, which we always knew was going to be the case when the series started taking more liberties with the book material.
 

SJRB

Gold Member
Considering the show's catastrophic ending is arguably the most hated season in the history of television it's not hard to decide to go a different route..
 

IDKFA

I am Become Bilbo Baggins
Pretty obvious to anybody who has read the books. There are really important figures who died in the TV show, but are alive in the series and vice versa. There are also big figures who don't even turn up in the TV show that have a huge role to play in the coming books.
 

A.Romero

Member
I used to be a pretty big fan but the last season of the show completely soured the concept for me. On top of that it's been 10 years since the release of the last book. It's clear to me that it is not a priority for George to end the saga.

Luckily he survived the virus but he doesn't look like a very healthy person so I don't think he will manage to finish it.

It's a shame because the books are very enjoyable.
 

MaestroMike

Gold Member
So many ppl butthurt this book would sell insane amounts if it means a different ending he shld just release whatever he has and make bank then move to like fukkin New Zealand or whatever and ignore fans forever
 

A.Romero

Member
So many ppl butthurt this book would sell insane amounts if it means a different ending he shld just release whatever he has and make bank then move to like fukkin New Zealand or whatever and ignore fans forever

Yes, he should release it ASAP. And also he should ignore the fans.

However, it doesn't seem like he will release anything soon. He can still move to New Zealand and ignore the fans. It's not like there is that much hype for it anymore.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
I think the issue (well, one of the issues) with the show was we know that at some point Martin sat down with them and told them what happens at the end. But because the show had made some different choices earlier on they weren't taking the same path he is to get there so it ends up feeling a lot clumsier. So he will have told them "and then Dany burns down Kings Landing" and now they have to do that but they haven't been laying the groundwork for it. The same with Bran, for show watchers King Bran kinda came out of nowhere. But that's because Benioff and Weiss really weren't all that interested in the character. He disappears for a whole season after all which is not something they'd have ever considered doing with Tyrion, Dany, Jon or a bunch of others. Whereas Bran has always been a big part of the story for Martin. Bran was the first character he came up with when he conceived the series and he's talked about putting a lot of work into making sure Bran's chapters feel just right.

I think the show would have been better off if they had just done their own thing entirely. Them trying to crowbar in what's going to be the end state of the books just felt really clumsy. It'd be like you were writing a murder mystery show and you plot out Character X to be the killer. Then when you sit down to write the last episode someone tells you that Character Y has to be killer so you need to write the script to be about that. Yeh, you could do it, but it's going to feel awkward.
They were told in 2015 the fate of all the characters. They were writing season 6 at the time. They had ample time to plant the seeds for Dany's turn and Bran's eventual crowning. They are just awful writers who chose to hide Dany's true nature by showing time and time again that shes willing to minimize casualties and does everything in her power to help the citizens.

It's been clear to me for a while now that they chase reactions. They have been trying to recreate the red wedding since Season 3. Every year they need to have shocking episodes because they think youtube reaction and bar reactions are why people watch this show. And they are probably right. This is the first show where Millenials can claim to watch in bars and watch parties as their parents did with Seinfeld. Of course, Game of thrones is not a sitcom and should not be watched anywhere except in a dark room but what do i know.

They way Dany's entire turn was set up reeked of TWIST ending. They basically wanted to shock the viewers one last time. In the 7th season, Dany was about to execute Sam's Dad and Brother. They shouldve written that scene in a way where we see Dany make a BAD and rash decision for once. Instead, She ends up giving a very reasonable out and Sam's dad and brother's stubborness is the reason why she sentences them to death. All they had to do was have those two agree to join her army and she burns them anyway.

They are both hacks. They had 4 years to set up the ending arcs and they fucked it up. I knew something was off as soon as season 4 when Tyrion kills his dad for calling whore a whore. I am like you just murdered her, why do you care that your dad is calling her a whore. Then i found out that the books had Tywin and Tyrion talk about Tyrion's first wife who was falsely accused of being a whore by Tywin and then gangraped on his command. THAT is why Tyrion goes up to confront his dad in the first place.

They are idiots.
 
my man is in polishing limbo

i bet that shit is done and he's just polishing and revising forever
Nah, he probably hasn't written anything concrete in any type of volume for 3-5 years.

He's living the high life, enjoying his money while he can and putting out simple, easy projects like his other GOT secondary work. Consulting on Elden Ring, etc. It's easier, quicker and pays his bills. Isn't he supposed to be shut in a cabin in New Zealand until he finishes the books? Isn't that what he promised if it wasn't done and out by 2020?
 

Aesius

Member
They were told in 2015 the fate of all the characters. They were writing season 6 at the time. They had ample time to plant the seeds for Dany's turn and Bran's eventual crowning. They are just awful writers who chose to hide Dany's true nature by showing time and time again that shes willing to minimize casualties and does everything in her power to help the citizens.

It's been clear to me for a while now that they chase reactions. They have been trying to recreate the red wedding since Season 3. Every year they need to have shocking episodes because they think youtube reaction and bar reactions are why people watch this show. And they are probably right. This is the first show where Millenials can claim to watch in bars and watch parties as their parents did with Seinfeld. Of course, Game of thrones is not a sitcom and should not be watched anywhere except in a dark room but what do i know.

They way Dany's entire turn was set up reeked of TWIST ending. They basically wanted to shock the viewers one last time. In the 7th season, Dany was about to execute Sam's Dad and Brother. They shouldve written that scene in a way where we see Dany make a BAD and rash decision for once. Instead, She ends up giving a very reasonable out and Sam's dad and brother's stubborness is the reason why she sentences them to death. All they had to do was have those two agree to join her army and she burns them anyway.

They are both hacks. They had 4 years to set up the ending arcs and they fucked it up. I knew something was off as soon as season 4 when Tyrion kills his dad for calling whore a whore. I am like you just murdered her, why do you care that your dad is calling her a whore. Then i found out that the books had Tywin and Tyrion talk about Tyrion's first wife who was falsely accused of being a whore by Tywin and then gangraped on his command. THAT is why Tyrion goes up to confront his dad in the first place.

They are idiots.
Arya killing the Night King was 100% written for Twitter and so people would cheer at watch parties.
 
The guy writes other stuff. Multiple books, video game, multiple TV shows.

He clearly does not want to write this conclusion. Can't say I blame him really. He should just write what he wants.
 
The guy writes other stuff. Multiple books, video game, multiple TV shows.

He clearly does not want to write this conclusion. Can't say I blame him really. He should just write what he wants.
Oh, I think he wants to write it. I just think he knows what goes into his writing process and how detailed it is PLUS it has blown up to such a degree that he wants it to be perfect. Nobody wants to get popular off work they did when they were winging it and then the final steps to that new work fall flat because of the renewed scrutiny. I think he is worried of failing and wants it perfect. But he's already so invested in making it perfect that he gets in his own way.

I sadly don't think we'll see another GOT book from him ever. Could be wrong but I highly doubt it. He just didn't expect it to blow up like it did and as such can't dedicate the time and effort like it needs to meet his standards while also balancing all the new stuff coming his way.
 
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Husky

THE Prey 2 fanatic
Will he keep the, you know...
Dany's reveal as the villain? In the show, I thought it was always apparent she was a villain (called her burning King's Landing during S5), but I've only read the first book. Is she also written as a maniac conqueror?
 

Raven117

Member
LOL! And "please buy the book, the ending is different than the show...." Certainly not to drive sales...if it ever comes out.
 

Shy-Gamer

Neo Member
Zero hype from me. As bad as D&D were, I'm confident that at least part of the season 8 disaster happened because Martin has no idea how to properly finish the story either.
 

BlueAlpaca

Member
How did he think the show would not pass him? When they bought the rights to the series book five still wasn't out, the one before took 4/5 years I think, and he was only getting older. :lollipop_confused:
 
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TheUsual

Gold Member
Will he keep the, you know...
Dany's reveal as the villain? In the show, I thought it was always apparent she was a villain (called her burning King's Landing during S5), but I've only read the first book. Is she also written as a maniac conqueror?
Been a while since I've read the books but the major thing that possibly has hinted at her mania was when she had the slave owners in Meereen crucified without trial.
 

Lunarorbit

Member
He's had more than enough time to release the next book. At this point he's literally repeating what he said 5ish years ago.

He doesn't respect the readers or his fans. Super selfish of him to not calm his ego and use an editor anymore. I bet there's months, especially during football season, where he doesn't write anything. This "consulting" job he has for elden ring is just the latest in a long line of excuses he's used to not finish the series.

Nightflyers, the targ book, editing Sci fi/fantasy anthology books... He wanted all the fame and attention when times were good but he's been milking this for over 25 years! I was in fucking high school when I bought game of thrones and I'm almost 40 now!

Fuck you George rr Martin. Weiner weiner weiner weiner. Floppy balls, weiner weiner, limp penis, not erect.
 

DKehoe

Member
He's had more than enough time to release the next book. At this point he's literally repeating what he said 5ish years ago.

He doesn't respect the readers or his fans. Super selfish of him to not calm his ego and use an editor anymore. I bet there's months, especially during football season, where he doesn't write anything. This "consulting" job he has for elden ring is just the latest in a long line of excuses he's used to not finish the series.

Nightflyers, the targ book, editing Sci fi/fantasy anthology books... He wanted all the fame and attention when times were good but he's been milking this for over 25 years! I was in fucking high school when I bought game of thrones and I'm almost 40 now!

Fuck you George rr Martin. Weiner weiner weiner weiner. Floppy balls, weiner weiner, limp penis, not erect.
How much time was enough time?
 
I think the show would have been better off if they had just done their own thing entirely. Them trying to crowbar in what's going to be the end state of the books just felt really clumsy.

What.

If the last two seasons meant anything, it meant that these guys lived and died by the book and it sure as hell would of fallen apart from Day 1 if they just "did their own thing" instead of having one of the most well thought out book lore in the world to work off.

And these fucks couldnt even properly invest their time and energy on building ontop of the world, just went "cool, books are done. Sooo, let's just speed this up and get to Star Wars."
 
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