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So, Gaf... Can video games have diversity or representation and not be... WOKE?

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Stuart360

Member
Diversity quota's and checklist culture exists, its not some conspiracy theory.
Of course that doesnt mean every game, film, or TV show that has this stuff in is there because its 'woke', but just the nature of the current world we live in means everyone will assume that stuff is there because of woke culture, rightly or wrongly.
 

22:22:22

NO PAIN TRANCE CONTINUE
I saw those woke comments in regard to Forspoken because... The protagonist is a light skinned African lady? That isn't woke and if it is it's a prime example of "inclusion is good, but make it subtle so we don't scare of the majority of our user base" Don't want no very dark skinned Ethiopian like lady.. SMH
 
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22:22:22

NO PAIN TRANCE CONTINUE
It's only woke if you think it's woke .
Thinking Think GIF by Rodney Dangerfield
 

justiceiro

Marlboro: Other M
  • Don't change existing characters to have a representation, create new ones/new IPs with it.
  • Invest on games made overseas by the natives of the region you want so much representation of.
  • Don't make the character entire personality be around diversity issues.
Look, the worst part of woke shit is that reduces people to their ethnicity, gender and sexual orientation. It's made by ignorant people for ignorant people. You don't need to speak in the behalf of anyone, just give them the opportunity to speak for themselves. Let's stop pretending we all have the same experience and values. This is my biggest qualm with what the world call diversity: it's just for shows.

TL, DR: do thcia, not saint rows.
 

22:22:22

NO PAIN TRANCE CONTINUE
  • Don't change existing characters to have a representation, create new ones/new IPs with it.
  • Invest on games made overseasu by the natives of the region you want so much representation of.
  • Don't make the character entire personality be around diversity issues.
Look, the worst part of woke shit is that reduces people to their ethnicity, gender and sexual orientation. It's made by ignorant people for ignorant people. You don't need to speak in the behalf of anyone, just give them the opportunity to speak for themselves. Let's stop pretending we all have the same experience and values. This is my biggest qualm with what the world call diversity: it's just for shows.

TL, DR: do thcia, not saint rows.

But bro, (faux) diversity is so hip and marketable

Well said mate
 
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Fredrik

Member
Exactly, that's the craziest thing that these people don't understand. I'm constantly saying people, all the woke journalists and people caring so much about the color of a person are actual the most racists ones, because they are the one focusing so much on what make people differents.
Good point but racism is incredibly complex and if nobody tries to push for more black characters in gaming we’d have no black characters.

I think my light hearted solution earlier is the best. Just make everyone stupidly hot! Then devs can add whatever diversity they want and few would be upset enough to care about it. Make Lara Croft as hawt as ever and few would scream ”Woke!!” if she hooked up with Sam and let her touch her pointy polygons. But if they tone down her sex appeal and also make her lesbian then you’d hear nothing else than people hating on it.
 
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Yeah if LOTR was filmed today you'd probably have something crazy happen, like one of the main villains being killed by a female character who shouts "I am no man" before killing him.

Luckily Tolkien/Jackson would never do anything so political and woke as address gender stereotypes in a fantasy story.

No one is saying these elements are always wrong, or that good writers can't use them in ways that work. Éowyn is a well-written character and there's certainly room in LOTR for her story.
 

deriks

4-Time GIF/Meme God
Last of Us DLC was pretty simple. Ellie kisses a girl and that's it

Mass Effect you could be gay too, makes no fucking difference with having straight relationship, and guess what, like normal life
 

Bitmap Frogs

Mr. Community
The hallmark of woke is the performance and whenever you notice statements of sexual identity or race that are out of place, bingo.

Like when BioWare decided the fact you could play as a black lesbian wasn’t enough and they had an npc in the ship spring up with the “oh hai I’m gay btw” in your first conversation.
 

Lupingosei

Banned
The hallmark of woke is the performance and whenever you notice statements of sexual identity or race that are out of place, bingo.

Like when BioWare decided the fact you could play as a black lesbian wasn’t enough and they had an npc in the ship spring up with the “oh hai I’m gay btw” in your first conversation.
Wait, gay people don't tell everybody that they are gay the first time they meet?
 

Fredrik

Member
The hallmark of woke is the performance and whenever you notice statements of sexual identity or race that are out of place, bingo.

Like when BioWare decided the fact you could play as a black lesbian wasn’t enough and they had an npc in the ship spring up with the “oh hai I’m gay btw” in your first conversation.
Lol yeah that’s so dumb. Best gay character in gaming is that guy in The Last of Us 1 who talked about his friend who was clearly more than just a friend. That’s how things are in real life. Took me forever to learn that a friend was gay, he’s also more manly than me so stereotyping feminine men and manly women for the gay/lesbian characters needs to go, that’s the hollywood version.
 
This sort of argument doesn't hold much water. It's a game where a Greek god is walking around Scandinavia talking to Norse gods, a talking head, blue dwarves and all manner of magical creatures, and the thing that "doesn't make sense" to you is someone having dark skin.

Same with the pandering argument. Was it bad that Kratos was created as a male character to appeal to male gamers? Of course not.

Games featuring certain types of characters to appeal to certain types of people has been happening for 30+years. Why is that an issue?
Why not have an aboriginal as Odin then? Or an asian Thor? Since it's fantasy, anything goes. Right? Why is the default diversity always black people?
 

Guilty_AI

Member
i think this is relevant, but the idea of what 'diversity' should look like for the many people crying about it is basically the vision of modern america.
When they ask for more diversity in games and movies, they're basically saying everything should look like current US ironically.

"Medieval japan? No! it can't have only asian white men! It must have x% of black and gay people just like america's 2020 population!"
 
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If comics are any inidcation, this will be the future of black men in videogames

der7p637gqj71.jpg


Because in the end black men are still men and by definition toxic. In comics the effeminate black man is pretty much standard by now, either as sub servant partner of the female lead or the romantic interest of the gay protagonist.
Case in point: Del in Gears 5. He's the passive harmless black best friend whose sole existence is to follow the strong woman protagonist around.
 
It's fine when it isn't blatently shoehorned into media. When you're out to tick boxes, it's easily spotted. Representation is good when it's organic, but don't force it in and make a fucking huge deal out of it. It makes things unnecessarily political and the conversation stops being about the product and moves to something more sensitive and political.
 

Fredrik

Member
"They will! You're just uneducated and doesn't understand biology! We can totally have a round 300kg woman fighting off demons and doing achrobatics!"
Lol okay I give up I don’t know what to respond to that 😅

On a serious note, what wouldn’t fly in today’s climate is that fat actually do bounce and jiggle. Animations like that are always attacked by the twitter mob but it looks plain dumb if you have a meatier character with no bounce. When you add weight no motion goes without some sort of reactionary motion, turn around and things will sway, jump and things will bounce, that’s just the result that comes out if you add mass to the equation. Gaming in general is still terrible at keeping things subtle though. Some day I hope someone will get it right.
 
It's funny people are pointing out the bad writing/dialog

When they seemed to have gone way and above to get some expensive talent.


The proof is in the pudding. It doesn't matter how expensive/prominent the talent of the writing staff is when "angry potty-mouth black lady" is all they can come up with.

That's not a compelling character in any stretch of the imagination.

---------------------------

Forspoken is not an example of wokeness at all!!!

If anything it's completely the opposite.

The fact that they chose an angry black woman as their protagonist, which leans hard into pretty damned harmful stereotypes; it's frankly counterproductive to diversity and inclusiveness in game design. Frankly, it's the shit Era would instantly call racist and start cancelling the developer for.
 
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GymWolf

Member
Case in point: Del in Gears 5. He's the passive harmless black best friend whose sole existence is to follow the strong woman protagonist around.
The whole cast in that game is high tier trash, the only "good" scene are with the old team in there, except when they ruined baird in some bald uncle figure...
 
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kingpotato

Ask me about my Stream Deck
And god of war put black girl in norse mythology 😂😂
Unlikely. The last game hinted that the Norse god of war, Tyr, visited the other pantheons, including Egyptian and Mayan/Aztec/Incan/Olmec (stepped temples). I'm beginning to think the people who use the term "woke" are ill informed...
 
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Xenon

Member
The hallmark of woke is the performance and whenever you notice statements of sexual identity or race that are out of place, bingo.



No we all get to know ya creepy people =(


Wokism isnt about just the contents of the games it's about everything around it marketing, press, and of course Social media virtue signaling.
 
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Guilty_AI

Member
On a serious note, what wouldn’t fly in today’s climate is that fat actually do bounce and jiggle. Animations like that are always attacked by the twitter mob but it looks plain dumb if you have a meatier character with no bounce. When you add weight no motion goes without some sort of reactionary motion, turn around and things will sway, jump and things will bounce, that’s just the result that comes out if you add mass to the equation. Gaming in general is still terrible at keeping things subtle though. Some day I hope someone will get it right.
In short, its impossible to make these people happy.
 

Senhua

Member
I could go on an entire rant of all the pandering, tokenism, force inclusion in videos games today.

But can there be pure, organic, natural diversity in gaming that highlights representation, wether that be race, gender or culture, without pointing those out unless the story or theme demand, it?



Are there characters and games that have / has done that?


Ill go as far and give a game like Forsaken an early benefits of the doubt and defend its tone it attempt. Hopefully game play is good.


You can insert a ugly black/brown/yellow/whatever he/she/it Char, Just DON'T reveal and market your game first with:
- Inclusive and diversity
- Strong Woman
- etc

All the above will instantly make me judge the dev will prioritize woke rather than creating fun gameplay and yeah FORSPOKEN is WOKE:
Please watch again the game's reveal trailer and the first thing they showed is:

HOW THE DIVERSE AND INCLUSIVE THIS GAME WAS BY ALWAYS FOCUSING AT THE BLACK PROTAGONIST AND THEY EVEN MAKE A RECORDING ABOUT THE ACTRESS INTERVIEW
SO YES FOR ME FORSPOKEN IS WOKE PROPAGANDA GLOBOHOMO GAME SAME AS SAINT ROW REMAKE

 

Jigsaah

Gold Member
I've said this before, but the term "Woke" is an urban slang word that has been perverted and politicized.

Woke doesn't mean LBGTQ+ or racial diversity.

Woke, originally, was a term defined as when a person should understand what is really going on in the world. To be aware of hidden agendas of people who, on the surface, seem non-threatening, but in reality do not have your best interest at heart. The full phrase is "Stay Woke".

This revision of the term being applied to gaming and diversity has always been a pet peeve of mine. But as it is slang to begin with, I suppose different interpretations are inevitable.

To answer OP's question, yes games can be diverse without being "woke" as it's used in this context. I say this because "Woke" basically shames the idea of white male involvement in the game's cast, specifically as the protagonist. You can have a diverse cast in a game while not having a white male protagonist, but still having white males in supporting roles. I think that the exclusion of any and everything white is an example of what "woke" is, again in this context. I think that is disingenuous because the whole point of woke is to be inclusive.

How can you be inclusive if you are purposely excluding certain types of characters based on their race, gender or heterosexuality? You simply can't. That's not being Woke, that's discrimination.

So yes, games can be diverse without being woke. Problem is people are OVERCORRECTING this issue. I mean....white people are people too.

EDIT: Sorry I forgot to mention a game that is diverse but not woke. I think Apex Legends, though in the beginning definitely seemed woke...now seems simply properly inclusive. There are black, white, hispanic, asian men, women and otherwise (Bloodhound) in the game. I think Gibraltar is gay. Octane is "disabled". Loba seems extremely hetero. They herald from different parts of the world, from America, to Europe to Russia, India, Japan, West Indies, etc.
 
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aclar00

Member
Yes. If I want to make a game with the setting of 1000 ad Peru, heavily inspired by the architecture, political systems, clothing, warfare, and music (like many many games do for medieval Europe) then shouldn't I respect the ethnicity of those people as well? Shouldn't the game feature people that fit the setting I've used for inspiration? Dropping in random ethnicities just to pander to Twitter folk is woke.

Let's make games that fit the story, setting, and theme. Don't hand the creatives a checklist and tell them to make sure each box is checked when writing the story. THAT limits creative freedom!

That would be the thing though...the settings themselves dont necessarily have to be or are the actual timeframe just because similar style clothes and British accents were used. These arent biographical documentaries, they are fiction. Whose to say those stories and characters are the visions of their creators?

Also, the irony ive heard anecdotally is that creative freedom has generally always been taken out of the hands of the story tellers' visions, but in the opposite way you said (Western society). Its usually been a checklist that said something along the lines of "add white male heterosexual protagonist with a single syllable first name and white female sexy blond supporting character fighting in a mini skirt and heels...because minorities dont sell and a gay character would make us the target of our Christian audience..." Let alone stereotypical roles given to these characters...

I havent watched the show, but Brigerton (spelling) is one the highest rated and watched Netflix shows and if im not mistaken checks all the boxes you mentioned. I dont think it's pandering at all, its just borrows set pieces of a historical timeframes and creates a fictional story. Im sure the story is being told as its creator/s intended.

edit: If anything id say the larger and more poignant argument would be that capitalism itself is what stagnates creative freedom in that regardless of supposed pandering, companies will do or refrain from doing what will ultimately pay more money, regardless of the issue.

Given that, there is never a time when a company isnt pandering...just whoever isnt being pandering to at the time will have their panties in a bunch.
 
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No doubt the term is being exagerated. I have no issues with LGBTQ or minorities or whatever else in games. The problem is how they are introduced. If you look at most games shown this past year in media, most of them have a black female in them or how obvious it is when they add that token black person/lgbtq persons just to put a checkmark on the corporations checklist. Who is that girl in God of War? Where we supposed to be impressed with a random 5 second of that or..? No, it was to show they are diverse, nothing else really. If we make these remakrs ppl are called racists but its corporations whoa re the real racists because these people are just tools to them. The problem is, these corporations are in fact owned by white old males which makes our cases weak when we speak out.

I miss the days when no one gave a shit about all of this. Watching Eddie Murphy or Will SMith on screen was awesome, they were cast perfectly in their movies. Games just did not want to risk that for some stupid reason. If you see a top protagonist in games most if not all are white males. Its not too late to change that but sadly corporations never change and when they do something its always to the exact extreme opposite. So now everything will feel forced, or woke, because a lot of times it is.
 

yurinka

Member
Diversity/representation is ok when they are charismatic characters with personality that are a good addition to the games because they add something great to the gameplay and / or story of the game and are introduced being respectful with the brand, its existing iconic characters and its fanbase. It's ok when that is the focus of that character, and their skin color/gender/sexual preference doesn't matter and they are treated naturally, just like another character more. Good examples are the Street Fighter series, the Alien series or Ellie the gay/lesbian stuff in TLOU1+Left Behind.

The problem is when their main goal is not to make a product that their existing fans will love and to introduce characters who add interesting gameplay and story stuff, but instead their goal is to piss-off their main existing fanbase (mostly white males), to get cheered by the woke cult and to try to attract a female audience that never has been intested in this type of products (but because it's game genre is focused on stuff like action instead of because of the skin color or gender of the characters) and a LGBT and racial minorities audience that represents a very small portion of the population of their main gaming markets and demographics. Maybe if their main audience is in a majority white heterosexual males is because they are the majority of people interested in these kind of products in these regions and have enough time and money to afford them.

It's also a problem when they do that because some of the people of the woke cult hate men, heterosexual people or white people and think that being that or having main characters that are that is problematic, toxic, sexist or racist because the dogmas of their woke cult say so. They think women, LGBT people and non-white people are inferior beings who need help and that everyone who doesn't agree them are nazis, bigots, white supremacists, misogynistic, racists, sexist and/or alt-right.

So they end killing and / or replacing their very iconic, charismatic and popular main white heterosexual male characters, who were a big part of why that IP was cool, pissing off their fans. To put instead unattractive manly females (female beauty is another problematic and toxic thing for them, feel the need to make them unactractive to hetero man and trans friendly), LGBT or non-white characters that are a bad copy or replacement for the original one because the main reason to include these character was to fill their representation quota checklist and appeal the woke cult, instead of appealing their fans and to introduce interesting gameplay or story to the game with these characters.

They also have a narrative as showing the remaining male characters as bad guys, dumb or weak to reflect that masculinity is toxic and that the females are great, and that if there are female inside the bad guys it's because the influence of the toxic masculity of male characters.

This is why some of the worst examples regarding diversity or representation are TLOU2, the new He-Man tv show or the last Ghostbusters series.

Yeah. When it’s a new series with a lead character of color or female it’s fine. Maybe, unless it appears like the good guys are all non white/straight and there’s an evil white man villain or something stupid like that. Like new saints.

Btw how tf is a white Woman lead a minority in the first damn place? Not that all this shit isn’t stupid anyway. Nevertheless, I see something like returnal and I don’t give it a second thought. New IP, that’s how you do it. Couldn’t care less it’s a woman.

Miles morales for example is woke af because it takes an established character and shits on it whilst changing the race/sex. The BLM stuff, the oh now we have a Spider-Man for our neighborhood bs npc lines etc.

If it was a new superhero series with new black character it wouldn’t be an issue. Unless they go on to preach how oppressed they are lol. It would be obvious if it’s woke or not.

So much of the PlayStation event was so woke, and no it’s not because there’s poc in it, don’t be stupid people. The people who are getting these dev jobs come from this toxic culture, so of course all this shit is going to infect games.
A good example are the old Blade movies, specially the first one.

Nobody cared about him being black and I think it wasn't even mentioned anything about his skin color or anything related to related topics. People instead likes the movie and the character because he's so badass and charismatic, features very cool action and stuff like that.

He didn't need to be the [insert any minority here] version of a super popular character and didn't need to make political and ideological propaganda. They simply got a cool superhero and did choose a charismatic actor who was a great fit and respectful with that character, while also very cool and badass kicking asses, something key for an action movie.

Now Disney will go back to Blade because they want more characters from minorities leading their MCU movies.
 
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aclar00

Member
For me it’s simple. Diversity is great when it’s natural. Not when it’s forced. And I can always tell when it’s forced.
For example, in miles morales, tons of NPCs can be heard talking about Kwanza and saying “happy kwanza” to Spider-Man. That was 100% forced woke nonsense. Nowadays almost every commercial features a black person. This all started after the “racial injustice” situation that occurred in summer 2020. All these game and media companies are reacting to the cultural climate and rushing to put colored people in their games and movies.
Sorry, I mean “people of color”. Huge difference.
Anyway, it’s all forced. It doesn’t feel natural. It feels like a reaction, and it is definitely pandering.

I will also add that I am biracial (black and white). I grew up with not a lot of game characters who looked like me. So what? I told myself If I wanted representation then I should make a game and represent myself. I’ve never understood the mindset of looking to others to represent you. My favorite movie series of all time is the LoTR trilogy, and there’s not a single black person in any of the movies. But they’re damn good movies. And there’s no way they’d ever get the green light today because there’s not enough diversity. L

Kind of like how tons of white people, sorry i mean Caucasian people, were put into commercials prior? From the otherside of the aisle that felt forced....particularly when white people went out of their way to literally force black people from various spaces, including media and television, such as Black face...talk about forced....

It general depends on which side of the aisle youre on. As someone else mentioned, its New York City... one of, if not the most diverse cities in the world where undoubtedly thousands of people celebrate Kwanza....i take it that anything other than Merry Christmas would have seemed forced to you? A Rabbis saying Happy Hanukkah or someone saying Feliz Navidad perhaps? If anything making every NPC saying Merry Christmas would have been forced or the very least lazy.

Im also curious to whats natural inclusion of minorities to you? What makes something forced? Who forces it?

Also, what makes fictional "middle earth" exclusively white? Did Tokken describe all the charactets as such or is that just the status quo assumption like the crazy people assumed with their god complex that Rue was white in the Hunger Games?

Would you complain had the LOTR movie been an all black cast? What would or wouldnt make it ok? Would it have seemed force? If the author were black and that's how they 'envisioned' the characters would it be ok to you? Did you have issues with the Rue character in the Hunger Game movies?

Would an all White cast be seen as forced 50 years from now in the U.S. when they will be the minority.

Sorry for all the questions, just my way of trying to understand.
 

NahaNago

Member
In this day and age it is extremely difficult for it to not be woke. It's possible for it to not be woke but realistically it's going to be woke.
 

6502

Member
Yes. Most things used to be and 99% of it was fine.

But these days it will be impossible for it not to be accused of being woke. That's how the division works - poison the well and polarise. Enrage, repeat.
 
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RoboFu

One of the green rats
I dont care if its a female or person of color. The dialogue is utter cringe.
yeah I agree woke or not the dialogue is horrible in forespoken.





I still don't know what it means to be "woke."

My interpretation...

Of course you can.. the difference between true diversity and wokeism is that.. wokeness is “ just because “ and true diversity “ has reason “

no one cares that the lead character in halo 5 is black because that “ has reason “ he is a new character with a back story that fits , but if they would have turned MC into a woman “ just because “ that would have been wokeness

wokeness also merges race and culture as one where as in reality they are very different.

for example a rich black guy growing up in Manhattan is not the same as a poor white guy growing up in South Africa.

wokeness doesn’t care about the latter… only that the first guy is black “ just because “ he is black.
 
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