Grildon Tundy
Member
Hey, not trying to troll here, but was it ever confirmed Abby identified as anything other than her birth gender (sorry if I'm not using the right wording. Hopefully you get what I mean)? Or are you talking about Lem?
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are the 90's and 00's games really better or is it just nostalgia ?
- Thread starter samoilaaa
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D-ray
Member
They are not necessarily becoming worst than before, but due to how the market for video games works now days, it's hard to see a new and interesting idea.
Investors are always afraid of putting too much money into something that might not give back enough, and since the gaming industry is now getting more and more "mainstream" it will get even harder for devs to have more freedom in creating something original or effectively well made.
However, even tho some games were actually better back then (due to lesser amount of risks), I think that many games today can still be great. Usually indies, because they are not held up by expectations and stuff.
Investors are always afraid of putting too much money into something that might not give back enough, and since the gaming industry is now getting more and more "mainstream" it will get even harder for devs to have more freedom in creating something original or effectively well made.
However, even tho some games were actually better back then (due to lesser amount of risks), I think that many games today can still be great. Usually indies, because they are not held up by expectations and stuff.
Catphish
Member
Older games were more likely to be complete, QA'ed experiences compared to today. Golden-era Blizzard epitomized this with their "when it's done" mantra. Now, rather than using the internet to patch a game out of necessity, it's patched as a matter of course. Most games now are sold (and pre-sold) on flashy promises, but ship incomplete, and are then patched over the ensuing months. Further, games now are all about dominating your time, keeping you "engaged", and spending beyond the initial purchase. It's not enough for you to buy it and play it. Now they want you to keep playing it, preferably exclusively, and keep paying for it, whether it be by way of subscription, season/battle passes, or DLC.
Gaming has always been about making money, no doubt. There were shysters and trend-chasers selling shitware for the Atari 2600 just as there are now. Only now, it feels like there are so few companies (if any, really) who are actually trying to satisfy the modern gaming customer, as opposed to addicting and exploiting them.
The saving grace is indies, but most of those games lack the graphical sophistication that many of us (not least of all, myself) expect. I mean, if you would have told be that so many modern games would be pixelated 8-bit retreads or flash animation projects, I'd have told you to pass the bong.
But, yeah, to me, the biggest difference between now and then is the way I feel about my relationship with game companies. In the 80's and 90's, gaming companies felt like entities that cared about their customers, and worked to 'wow' them. They had tip lines you could call for help when you got stuck, ffs. Now? It's a corporate wasteland. They don't give a fuck about you. They'll take your money, maybe give you a functional product, try their best to addict you, and refer you to a message board for your insignificant issues. I used to feel like a customer. Now I just feel like a sucker.
EA is the perfect microcosm, I think, that exemplifies the industry at-large. Look at what they once were. How they innovated. The quality they were known for. And look at what they are today. Too big to fail, resting on their laurels, incessantly milking just a handful of cash-cow franchises, pumping out iterative shit that hasn't significantly improved for literal decades, and yet are massively successful in spite of it all.
It's absolutely befuddling.
With room for exeptions, I think it boils down to this: In the Golden Age, we played games. In this one, the games play us.
Gaming has always been about making money, no doubt. There were shysters and trend-chasers selling shitware for the Atari 2600 just as there are now. Only now, it feels like there are so few companies (if any, really) who are actually trying to satisfy the modern gaming customer, as opposed to addicting and exploiting them.
The saving grace is indies, but most of those games lack the graphical sophistication that many of us (not least of all, myself) expect. I mean, if you would have told be that so many modern games would be pixelated 8-bit retreads or flash animation projects, I'd have told you to pass the bong.
But, yeah, to me, the biggest difference between now and then is the way I feel about my relationship with game companies. In the 80's and 90's, gaming companies felt like entities that cared about their customers, and worked to 'wow' them. They had tip lines you could call for help when you got stuck, ffs. Now? It's a corporate wasteland. They don't give a fuck about you. They'll take your money, maybe give you a functional product, try their best to addict you, and refer you to a message board for your insignificant issues. I used to feel like a customer. Now I just feel like a sucker.
EA is the perfect microcosm, I think, that exemplifies the industry at-large. Look at what they once were. How they innovated. The quality they were known for. And look at what they are today. Too big to fail, resting on their laurels, incessantly milking just a handful of cash-cow franchises, pumping out iterative shit that hasn't significantly improved for literal decades, and yet are massively successful in spite of it all.
It's absolutely befuddling.
With room for exeptions, I think it boils down to this: In the Golden Age, we played games. In this one, the games play us.
Knightime_X
Member
Depends on how you look at it.
Some games were VERY hard and devs knew not everyone would be able to enjoy the game if there was only a single difficulty.
Because of that, they implemented a difficulty system and some of these hard games even offered cheats outright.
Devs back then knew it was only a game and should be treated as such.
But that's limited to just a few examples.
Some games were VERY hard and devs knew not everyone would be able to enjoy the game if there was only a single difficulty.
Because of that, they implemented a difficulty system and some of these hard games even offered cheats outright.
Devs back then knew it was only a game and should be treated as such.
But that's limited to just a few examples.
Crayon
Member
I'll dial back my assessment of freedom planet from trash to... tbd lol.
I heard great things about the games you've mentioned there. Well, half of them. I played some. I definitely take issue with Ori and hollow Knight, but I'll just say your ideas on this are worth just as much as mine, so cheers!
cortadew
Member
Play Sekiro with Long May the shadow reflect mod and you will remember those times pretty well
ProgenitorCastle
Banned
Alot of it has to do with the region you're in. I'd say in America, retro nostalgia is huge compared to other parts of the world that favor the new over the old
Laptop1991
Member
Well take the 360/ps3 era, and i'm a PC gamer only player, just after Half Life 2 and GTA SA in 2004, you had, which i played
Oblivion\Fallout 3\New Vegas and Skyrim,
Bioshock 1, 2 and Infinite,
Crysis 1 and Warhead,
Assassins Creed 1 to Black Flag,
Gta 4 and 5,
Saint's Row 1, 2 and 3,
Multiple better COD's and Battlefield's,
Fear 1 and two not as good sequels, but still very playable,
Dishonored,
Under the radar games like Singularity and Wolfenstein 2009,
and that's without the console only titles, i was really impressed how the games and visuals improved over that time on consoles, with the same hardware,
Compared to now and in recent years where i'm hardly playing anything new other than the newer AC games as a lot of it doesn't even work properly, or is taking years upon years to come out, (ES6, Fallout 5, Avowed, TOW 2 and of course Starfield etc), so yeah i would rarther go back through that era again for the 1st time.
Oblivion\Fallout 3\New Vegas and Skyrim,
Bioshock 1, 2 and Infinite,
Crysis 1 and Warhead,
Assassins Creed 1 to Black Flag,
Gta 4 and 5,
Saint's Row 1, 2 and 3,
Multiple better COD's and Battlefield's,
Fear 1 and two not as good sequels, but still very playable,
Dishonored,
Under the radar games like Singularity and Wolfenstein 2009,
and that's without the console only titles, i was really impressed how the games and visuals improved over that time on consoles, with the same hardware,
Compared to now and in recent years where i'm hardly playing anything new other than the newer AC games as a lot of it doesn't even work properly, or is taking years upon years to come out, (ES6, Fallout 5, Avowed, TOW 2 and of course Starfield etc), so yeah i would rarther go back through that era again for the 1st time.
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bentanchorbolt
Banned
It depends. The best part about old school gaming was when you bought a game, it was generally feature complete and polished. I think people are just tired of paying for DLC, microtransactions, or getting a game day 1 just to find out its several months and patches out from being polished and complete. Developers are very likely today to ship incomplete games rife with bugs because they know after a few patches the game will be fixed and people will move on and not care anymore. Look at Cyberpunk 2077. They knowingly released an incomplete game that needed 5 major patch revisions just to work correctly, and even then the game still has major features MIA that won't see the light of day until over two years after the game was released. If that happened back in the 90s the dev would have been run out of town and never made a game again. Daikatana, for example.
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I seriously doubt most gamers send death threats. There are a tiny subset of assholes, freaks, and psychopaths inside any larger subset of the population. They just get all the attention from "journalists", etc.
YeulEmeralda
Member
Story telling today is not better. Story telling today takes its cue from Hollywood.
You are quite literally playing an interactive movie. The same writers and actors that do Netflix do games.
Maybe that is the difference? The 1990s- early 2000s games were made by nerds for nerds.
You are quite literally playing an interactive movie. The same writers and actors that do Netflix do games.
Maybe that is the difference? The 1990s- early 2000s games were made by nerds for nerds.
cortadew
Member
That's mostly a western thing, japanese devs are still concerned in gameplay
cortadew
Member
Ok maybe I exaggerated
Kagoshima_Luke
Gold Member
Of course they were better. Back then, even with AAA games you could see/feel the vision of the creator(s) in the game. Now, games are mass produced, bloated and without a compelling vision. Tech has gotten better and games look fantastic now, but they've become soulless.
BusierDonkey
Member
Of the games I played this year so far, the games I played from the 3rd-gen console era up to the 5th-gen era were the ones I had the most fun with. I find a lot of new games to be unnecessarily padded with pointless or repetitive side missions and filler. I also find new games for the most part don't ever stop holding my hand. Characters never stop talking to the point I'll find myself rolling my eyes as they explain to me every facet of their poorly written character through pointless exposition.
Leave something, anything really, to my imagination. I don't need a voice actor to tell me obvious things, it's weird and grating.
Here's a modern game scenario:
I'm walking through a jungle and come across a rope bri--- "This bridge looks pretty dilapidated. I'd better cross it slowly or it might break!" Okay... I would have liked to figure that out for myse--- "What a breathtaking view, wish the gang could see this with me!" Who are you talking to? Why are you saying this all out loud in the middle of a jungle? Oh look, there's a machine over here, looks like a genera--- "Hmm, this looks like a generator, it looks like it's missing the handle to start it up!" I was still twenty feet away, can I at least look at the thing before being given the soluti--- "The handle must be around here somewhere!" (The camera pans up to show the exact location of the handle) "It must be up there!" How the fuck did you determine that, you aren't seeing what I am. Whatever, I'll find a way up the cl--- "Looks like I can use by bow to shoot a rope into the tree up here!" (game goes into Quick Time Event where if I miss the shot I get crushed by a boulder or something, and the button isn't the one I normally use to fire an arrow, so I miss it and die. The game resets me at the start of the bridge) "This bridge looks pretty dilapidated. I'd better cross it slowly or it might break!"
Leave something, anything really, to my imagination. I don't need a voice actor to tell me obvious things, it's weird and grating.
Here's a modern game scenario:
I'm walking through a jungle and come across a rope bri--- "This bridge looks pretty dilapidated. I'd better cross it slowly or it might break!" Okay... I would have liked to figure that out for myse--- "What a breathtaking view, wish the gang could see this with me!" Who are you talking to? Why are you saying this all out loud in the middle of a jungle? Oh look, there's a machine over here, looks like a genera--- "Hmm, this looks like a generator, it looks like it's missing the handle to start it up!" I was still twenty feet away, can I at least look at the thing before being given the soluti--- "The handle must be around here somewhere!" (The camera pans up to show the exact location of the handle) "It must be up there!" How the fuck did you determine that, you aren't seeing what I am. Whatever, I'll find a way up the cl--- "Looks like I can use by bow to shoot a rope into the tree up here!" (game goes into Quick Time Event where if I miss the shot I get crushed by a boulder or something, and the button isn't the one I normally use to fire an arrow, so I miss it and die. The game resets me at the start of the bridge) "This bridge looks pretty dilapidated. I'd better cross it slowly or it might break!"
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Fuz
Banned
It's not.
It can.
cartman414
Member
Better than Super Metroid, Fallout, Planescape Torment, Yoshi's Island, etc.?
The "HD era" was the beginning of the end. Not that there haven't been great games since, but as others have said, it's design by committee and bloated budgets.
Tams
Member
All rose-tinted glasses.
Handel
Member
It is nostalgia to definitively say things were better back then, because it glosses over the myriad of bad aspects to old games/gaming. There was more innovation sure, because the industry was younger so less ideas had been tried out/perfected, and while some ideas were good others took a long time for developers/publishers to figure out weren't that good overall. QTE's and escort missions were worse back in the day. Just figuring out movement, controls and camera control in 3D took a long while for most devs. RPGs were much more grindy because that's how the developers were padding the length of the game, and random encounter rates would almost always be too high. Voice acting quality was poor for most games up until awhile into the HD era. Translations were often bad back in the day, even for high profile titles like FFVII. Storytelling in general has seen massive improvement in the industry over the past 10-15 years, the average quality is much higher even though there are older games that stand among the best stories in gaming.
Gaming as a whole is much better than it was in the past, even if modern gaming has it's own flaws.
Gaming as a whole is much better than it was in the past, even if modern gaming has it's own flaws.
The absolute worst thing in some modern games like Horizon ZD/FW. Even my GOTY 2021 Psychonauts 2 had some issues with this, which was my only flaw with the game.Of the games I played this year so far, the games I played from the 3rd-gen console era up to the 5th-gen era were the ones I had the most fun with. I find a lot of new games to be unnecessarily padded with pointless or repetitive side missions and filler. I also find new games for the most part don't ever stop holding my hand. Characters never stop talking to the point I'll find myself rolling my eyes as they explain to me every facet of their poorly written character through pointless exposition.
Leave something, anything really, to my imagination. I don't need a voice actor to tell me obvious things, it's weird and grating.
Here's a modern game scenario:
I'm walking through a jungle and come across a rope bri--- "This bridge looks pretty dilapidated. I'd better cross it slowly or it might break!" Okay... I would have liked to figure that out for myse--- "What a breathtaking view, wish the gang could see this with me!" Who are you talking to? Why are you saying this all out loud in the middle of a jungle? Oh look, there's a machine over here, looks like a genera--- "Hmm, this looks like a generator, it looks like it's missing the handle to start it up!" I was still twenty feet away, can I at least look at the thing before being given the soluti--- "The handle must be around here somewhere!" (The camera pans up to show the exact location of the handle) "It must be up there!" How the fuck did you determine that, you aren't seeing what I am. Whatever, I'll find a way up the cl--- "Looks like I can use by bow to shoot a rope into the tree up here!" (game goes into Quick Time Event where if I miss the shot I get crushed by a boulder or something, and the button isn't the one I normally use to fire an arrow, so I miss it and die. The game resets me at the start of the bridge) "This bridge looks pretty dilapidated. I'd better cross it slowly or it might break!"
EDMIX
Member
100% Nostalgia. People remember the good times, they remember what they love and the feeling.
I try my best to separate those to give a solid view on those titles, imho....very few titles in that time frame I'd consider "timeless", some games had great design...FOR THAT TIME, so I don't see much where one could argue it was "better", on the contrary, lots of horrible shit went on lol
A game fucked up? no patches you just stuck with shit for life or until some re-print of disk.
Lack of many genres, when you realize just how many new genres came out over the past 2 gens or so, you realize just how limited it was back then.
I overall agree with most of your post, but it really, really depends on how people see the term "complete" as we still had SUPER street fighters, KH REMIXED and or Metal Gear Solid Substance, Subsistence, Persistence, Resistance, insistence, existance etc lol
So we had a version of what one would deem "incomplete" in regards to DLC, but I'd say nothing back then would fit CP2077, we just didn't have much games come out with missing AI or something weird like that, but shit we don't have much now that did some weird shit like that, so it depends.
I try my best to separate those to give a solid view on those titles, imho....very few titles in that time frame I'd consider "timeless", some games had great design...FOR THAT TIME, so I don't see much where one could argue it was "better", on the contrary, lots of horrible shit went on lol
A game fucked up? no patches you just stuck with shit for life or until some re-print of disk.
Lack of many genres, when you realize just how many new genres came out over the past 2 gens or so, you realize just how limited it was back then.
I overall agree with most of your post, but it really, really depends on how people see the term "complete" as we still had SUPER street fighters, KH REMIXED and or Metal Gear Solid Substance, Subsistence, Persistence, Resistance, insistence, existance etc lol
So we had a version of what one would deem "incomplete" in regards to DLC, but I'd say nothing back then would fit CP2077, we just didn't have much games come out with missing AI or something weird like that, but shit we don't have much now that did some weird shit like that, so it depends.
Drizzlehell
Banned
I think that the easiest way to answer this is to look back on the games that you played when growing up and then comparing them with games that were made 20 years prior.
Then it becomes clear to me that it's not a matter of better/worse but it's more about how much they were different from each other and what was gained/lost over the course of the years as the medium evolved. One could say that video games from the 70s and 80s were more archaic, with bad graphics, unfair difficulty level, etc. But on the other hand one could appreciate their simplicity and instant gratification that they provided.
In my opinion many modern games are too preoccupied with the narrative aspect and cinematic presentation rather than trying to tell their stories through gameplay but on the other hand, in many cases that gameplay has been refined to near-perfection and there's also a lot of innovation going on outside of the triple-A space. Not to mention these games bolstering more impressive visuals and bigger worlds to explore.
I still have a soft spot for games from the 90s and 2000s because in my opinion, most of them hit that sweet spot between telling captivating stories, and letting you engage with fun gameplay without sitting through 20 minutes of cutscenes. There are obviously some things about them that are outdated that simply do not compare with the games of today, but my nostalgia for them will always be stronger and playing those games will always feel like I'm wrapping myself in a safe, warm comfort blanket.
Now excuse me, I think I'm gonna go and reinstall Deus Ex...
Then it becomes clear to me that it's not a matter of better/worse but it's more about how much they were different from each other and what was gained/lost over the course of the years as the medium evolved. One could say that video games from the 70s and 80s were more archaic, with bad graphics, unfair difficulty level, etc. But on the other hand one could appreciate their simplicity and instant gratification that they provided.
In my opinion many modern games are too preoccupied with the narrative aspect and cinematic presentation rather than trying to tell their stories through gameplay but on the other hand, in many cases that gameplay has been refined to near-perfection and there's also a lot of innovation going on outside of the triple-A space. Not to mention these games bolstering more impressive visuals and bigger worlds to explore.
I still have a soft spot for games from the 90s and 2000s because in my opinion, most of them hit that sweet spot between telling captivating stories, and letting you engage with fun gameplay without sitting through 20 minutes of cutscenes. There are obviously some things about them that are outdated that simply do not compare with the games of today, but my nostalgia for them will always be stronger and playing those games will always feel like I'm wrapping myself in a safe, warm comfort blanket.
Now excuse me, I think I'm gonna go and reinstall Deus Ex...
crackajack
Member
Not every development in modern games is great. But overall current games are much better than old games, except only a few defining titles everyone could still play today. Experiencing the evolution in past decades was more thrilling though, than 4k and HDR and faster loading times, the latter old consoles not even had to begin with.
cartman414
Member
What do you like?
NeoIkaruGAF
Gold Member
Xeaker
Member
I played Baldur's Gate 1&2 for the first time few years ago on PS4 and they were wonderful games.
I gave my gf who started gaming with PS4 era my old PS2 RPGs and she loved them more than the modern RPG crap.
Nothing to do with nostalgia LOL
TrueLegend
Member
I made a typing mistake.
YeulEmeralda
Member
When I played Deus Ex in 2000 I could never imagine that it predicted QAnon.
CP2077 isn't even 1 percent as cool and edgy. But it has Reddit's favourite Hollywood actor I guess.
CP2077 isn't even 1 percent as cool and edgy. But it has Reddit's favourite Hollywood actor I guess.
Hypereides
Member
I have to agree with that. The vibe and tone in the culture was way different. Like you were part of some wild underground collective movement. It was kinda secluded and enthusiast driven in a way.
Nowadays, it just seems supremely concentrated on consumerism above anything else.
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NeoIkaruGAF
Gold Member
No, not really.
The best games were polished, yes. They still had tons of bugs and workarounds that today are exploited by speedrunners. Their polish was in the game usually working fine most of the time, and the bugs being so minimal and inconsequential that you wouldn't notice them during normal gameplay. Sometimes bugs could even be beneficial, eg the pause trick in Megaman.
But a seriously bugged game would probably never get fixed. Few games would get more than one run, due to the price of carts. There was no shortage of such games.
jezhumphrey75
Banned
music,films,tv and games were all better tbh.
Sid Of Bee
Member
Games are, on average, too long and repetitive. I could literally name 30 games I've played that would be much better if I could have beaten them in 5 to 10 hours rather than getting burnt out on them and never finishing them.... thus them not being as memorable of an experience to me. Back in the day, I had more time to play games and games seemed quicker, more full of gameplay and memorable experiences. I think today's games are definitely better, but they're padded and they go on too long and I'm older and can't put the time into finish all these games. Plus, there's so many good games nowadays that I'm always chasing the carrot.
Granted there are so many different styles of games today and with the indie scene there are definitely games that I'm sure suit my taste. I just haven't found them yet.
Granted there are so many different styles of games today and with the indie scene there are definitely games that I'm sure suit my taste. I just haven't found them yet.
Guilty_AI
Member
No really. Whoever says the average game in the 90s was 'polished' either only ever played the really famous stuff or has some serious case of rose-tinted nostalgia glasses.
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lostinblue
Banned
I think basically, future just felt rosier for everyone doing stuff.
And that shows in the end product, despite all the limitations, developers acted as if they didn't existed and basically soldiered on no matter what. Their outlook was positive otherwise they wouldn't try as hard.
These days, people are still overworked, world is ending, there's wars and we're still all going to die, but passion doesn't shine through in the same way. Games back then felt more like an intimate conversation, these days there's no privacy to anything they portray. Characters, world and everything else feel generic and canned due to that.
So yeah, I miss the 1990's and early 2000's "freedom".
And that shows in the end product, despite all the limitations, developers acted as if they didn't existed and basically soldiered on no matter what. Their outlook was positive otherwise they wouldn't try as hard.
These days, people are still overworked, world is ending, there's wars and we're still all going to die, but passion doesn't shine through in the same way. Games back then felt more like an intimate conversation, these days there's no privacy to anything they portray. Characters, world and everything else feel generic and canned due to that.
So yeah, I miss the 1990's and early 2000's "freedom".
EverydayBeast
thinks Halo Infinite is a new graphical benchmark
Don’t church up gaming, 3d made things exciting in the 90s.
Cyberpunkd
Member
Yeah, let’s not go there. IMO storytelling was much, much better 20 years ago. Now mixing storytelling with gameplay - sure, better now. But the worlds created back then were new and fresh, and not bulletpoint yawn we have now.
GamesDontSuck
Member
Busted out my ps2 during the week and now having a blast. So many classic games to choose from. The ps2 console (and era) was the best generation of gaming in my opinion.
So yes. Today's gaming isn't as good. Simply because ps2 era takes first place.
So yes. Today's gaming isn't as good. Simply because ps2 era takes first place.
Gambit2483
Member
You have a point, for some games...but imo storytelling has greatly evolved due to the simple art of environmental storytelling.
Compare the first few Zelda games to BOTW. The first Zelda videogames were more or less "bad guy did bad thing, stop him". Now, with a game like BOTW, we have moments where you could wander into an area and not one single word of text or dialogue appear on screen yet that area could tell several different "stories", i.e. the fall of a Kingdom or the remains of a major Battlefield, etc.
I value today's environmental storytelling just as much as conventional storytelling of past and present.
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synchronicity
Member
Very well put. The industry, in the beginning, was, while still a business, much more of an art form. As time has marched on and the dollars to be made have grown exponentially, the mainstream space has become so utterly cynical, generally speaking, looking at profit above ***all*** else - just doing the minimum to attract enough attention to generate purchases. Any art form (artist) that succumbs to a money-first mentality is destined to wither, sooner or later.
On the flip side of that coin, and as many have pointed out, independent development has picked up at least some of the slack in terms of offering originality and compelling, if lower budget, titles that are clearly works of passion and love for the medium rather than the cynicism and greed on display from the larger players. As players, we sometimes have to make concessions in regards to high production values if we are to seek meaningful gaming experiences. For some this is very difficult or impossible, but they are exactly the market that perpetuates the downward spiral of mainstream gaming.
Dust-by-Monday
Member
By the way. What happened to adventure games? Now it’s all about open world and Fortnite clones. I don’t want open world games anymore. I want a streamlined experience that is crafted for me to see exactly what they want me to see. I think of it like a ride at a theme park. Wow me. Give me an experience! Give me something memorable. I’m open world games, sure you can do your own thing, but I get lost or forget what is going on in the story…. Not to mention the side quests are just fetch this and fix that and just there to add length to the game. I miss shorter, but highly entertaining and memorable games.
ResilientBanana
Member
game companies are a dime a dozen and now are making an attempt to nickel and dime you constantly. Back in the day, games had unlockables, replay-ability, cheats to unlock and various other things you didn’t have to pay for.
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Evil Calvin
Afraid of Boobs
Yes!
Games of Today
Member
No they were definitely better. 2011 is around the time when good games started becoming rare. There are still tons of awesome games now obviously but even some of the best ones don't push A.I. or physics tech. It's pretty sad.
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