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[Mibu no ookami]

PS5 Pro might be the most consequential video game system released since the PlayStation 2, if Sony gets things right with it.

Difficult balance between performance and price.

People want double the power of the PS5 but only for an additional 100 dollars from the current base price.

That's a very tall order. I think the PS4 Pro had a pretty lukewarm reaction, though it had more than double the power of the original PS4 at the same price as the launch version.

It'll be interesting to see what price the PS5 Pro launches at and what impact that has on the PS5 SE and PS5 DE. By the end of next year, we may see a PS5 Digital as cheap as $350.

I think there are a couple more probable scenarios

Scenario A - High end, no price cut, and a larger introductory price for the PS5 PRO

PS5 PRO	600
PS5	500
PS5 Digital Edition	450

Scenario B - Following the trend of PS4

PS5 PRO	500
PS5	400
PS5 Digital Edition	350

Why I think this is consequential is because Nintendo may very well have to compete with PS5 Digital to some extent on price, especially if there is a goal to garner more of the market share that comes with 3rd party titles. The Nintendo Switch (non-OLED version) currently costs $300 dollars. Will the Switch 2 come out for $300 dollars and if it does what kind of performance can they deliver for a hybrid console at that price? They may need to take considerably small margins on the Switch 2, if not even sell it at a loss. The cheapest Steam Deck is 350 and it's not very powerful.

If the Switch 2 clocks in under the power of a PS4 Pro, it's going to struggle to compete with the PS5, particularly the digital in straight-up competition. That's again assuming that the PS5 Digital ends up discounted next year.

Microsoft will also have a big decision on their hands. If the PS5 Pro enters for 500 and the base model drops to 400, they can't continue selling the XSX for 500. The XSX is already being priced at 350-400 at various retailers. It's currently 400 on Amazon right now. That creates another question for Microsoft, which is what to do with the Series S.

The Carbon Black XSS is currently 350 and you can get the base model for 250 and it's struggling to sell at that price point (in fact you can get the XSS Starter pack for 240 and that comes with 3 months of GamePass). You almost have to discontinue selling the base model and then sell the Carbon Black for 250-300 and just hope for the best.

Given that the PS5 Pro rumored leaks seem a bit underwhelming, it would suggest that Sony's strategy is probably to do Scenario B, which would also explain the price increase for the PS5 Digital this year, because otherwise, people would expect the PS5 Digital to drop to 300 dollars, everything being equal.

Going a step further if we look at PS5 Digital at 300 and price drop of the PSVR2, currently 550, I think we could see this drop to 450 in Q1 bundled with RE4. That brings it lower than the MetaQuest 3.

I then think you are potentially looking at prices for PS5 Pro at 500 and PSVR2 eventually at 350, which could be very compelling for people interested in VR.

 

[Crayon]

The problem with the PS5 Pro is that it will arrive so late into this generation that only first-party titles will actually make use of it and most third-party games likely won't or won't support it fully. The rumours are that there is no Xbox Series X Pro this time round so developers have less incentive to support it. Sure, the Pro would mean that those third-party games that don't hit a locked 60 fps may run better on the Pro but we already have VRR so assuming the games don't drop below 48 fps then the extra performance is actually less exciting than it was back when the PS4 Pro was released (and that was basically a 1440p 30 fps console, let's face it).

Yah but remember there will be 2-3 years of cross gen into PS6. So it's going to be able to play almost everything and will be better than a regular PS5.

 

[Gaiff]

RDNA 3 has only 1.5x RDNA2 ray tracing boost all performed in the shader. PS5 Pro is theoretically receiving same RDNA3 CU boost or better for intersect and RT traversal conducted outside of the computes

Which still wouldn't make it stronger than the 7900 XT, let alone the XTX because their baseline is far higher.

That "leak" says:

• 50-60% rasterization uplift over Oberon and Oberon Plus, over twice the raw RT performance.

You need a lot more than twice the PS5's performance in ray traced games to smash the 7900 XT. RDNA4 would have to be a MASSIVE leap over RDNA3 for the PS5 Pro to even sniff the 7900 XT. 7900 XTX is out of reach barring some miracle work from AMD that makes previous architectures practically obsolete.

 

[sinnergy]

Beefy if true, I hope Xbox follows.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

The problem with the PS5 Pro is that it will arrive so late into this generation that only first-party titles will actually make use of it and most third-party games likely won't or won't support it fully. The rumours are that there is no Xbox Series X Pro this time round so developers have less incentive to support it. Sure, the Pro would mean that those third-party games that don't hit a locked 60 fps may run better on the Pro but we already have VRR so assuming the games don't drop below 48 fps then the extra performance is actually less exciting than it was back when the PS4 Pro was released (and that was basically a 1440p 30 fps console, let's face it).

I really don't think that is the case.

We just saw CDPR release an update to Witcher 3 on PS5, two years after the launch of the system.

I think you'll see Sony work with 3rd parties on key games to boost performance and then most new games will have it.

Square Enix
Final Fantasy 7 Remake
Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth
Final Fantasy 16

FromSoftware
Elden Ring
Armored Core 6

Larian
Baldur's Gate

CDPR
Cyberpunk 2077
Witcher 3

Rockstar
GTA5

Capcom
Resident Evil 4

Ubi Soft
Assassin's Creed Mirage and Valhalla
Rainbow Six Siege

Epic Games
Fortnite

Psyonix
Rocket League

EA
Jedi Survivor

Mihoyo
Genshin Impact

WB
Hogwarts Legacy

"Bungie"
Destiny 2

 

[silent head]

zen2 architecture found in the existing PS5 for compatibility, but the frequency will once again be dynamic with a peak of 4.4GHz. = 3700x

44 w

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Beefy if true, I hope Xbox follows.

If rumors are true and development of this started in 2022 and Microsoft hasn't started, it would take them at least a year or a year and a half to follow suit. That's basically rushing to market.

The reality is they would be looking at a mid to late 2025 release at best. That's just way too late. And you have to make sure that games like Halo Infinite, Forza Horizon, Forza Motorsport, and Starfield are all primed for it, not to mention any other games currently in development for 2024/25 releases.

I'd be stunned if we saw a Pro midgen refresh from them at this point.

 

[Heisenberg007]

The problem with the PS5 Pro is that it will arrive so late into this generation that only first-party titles will actually make use of it and most third-party games likely won't or won't support it fully. The rumours are that there is no Xbox Series X Pro this time round so developers have less incentive to support it. Sure, the Pro would mean that those third-party games that don't hit a locked 60 fps may run better on the Pro but we already have VRR so assuming the games don't drop below 48 fps then the extra performance is actually less exciting than it was back when the PS4 Pro was released (and that was basically a 1440p 30 fps console, let's face it).

1. No sane third-party developer will compromise the PlayStation version of their game for a missing Xbox Pro. The dominant market share of PlayStation will ensure that it never happens.
2. Most games use DRS anyway. In such games, the dynamic average resolution will be significantly higher anyway, making it a better version automatically. Games that offer unlocked frame rates will fare even better. And all this without any special optimization -- of which there will be many.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

1. No sane third-party developer will compromise the PlayStation version of their game for a missing Xbox Pro. The dominant market share of PlayStation will ensure that it never happens.
2. Most games use DRS anyway. In such games, the dynamic average resolution will be significantly higher anyway, making it a better version automatically. Games that offer unlocked frame rates will fare even better. And all this without any special optimization -- of which there will be many.

I assume developers have been building games with pro machines in mind making them easier to patch this generation.

I feel like few games last gen had uncapped framerates and I'm guessing a lot of games have uncapped framerates but just not as a playable option, especially given the PC versions. DRS plus uncapped, means all you need to do is lock it to 60 fps and QA test to ensure it's stable.

 

[silent head]

1. No sane third-party developer will compromise the PlayStation version of their game for a missing Xbox Pro. The dominant market share of PlayStation will ensure that it never happens.
2. Most games use DRS anyway. In such games, the dynamic average resolution will be significantly higher anyway, making it a better version automatically. Games that offer unlocked frame rates will fare even better. And all this without any special optimization -- of which there will be many.

Inside Immortals of Aveum: the Digital Foundry tech interview

Ahead of the launch of Immortals of Aveum, Alex Battaglia and Tom Morgan spoke with Ascendent Studios' Mark Maratea, Julia Lichtblau and Joe Hall about the game

www.eurogamer.net

What about specific resolution targets on consoles - is it FSR 2 on ultra performance targeting 4K, or is it a higher setting?

Mark Maratea: On consoles only, it does an adaptive upscale - so we look at what you connected from a monitor/TV standpoint... and there's a slot in the logic that says if a PS5 Pro comes out, it'll actually upscale to different quality levels - it'll be FSR 2 quality rather than standard FSR 2 performance.

 

[Crayon]

Doesn't tell me much about what the results are going to be. The 4-pro did not seems very impressive so I passed. Games were higher resolution. Yay.

This is supposed to be more focused on raytracing. Enhanced effects like that would be more my speed except raytracing is not all that. One day sure, but it's been all the buzz for a long time now and there's not much to show for it yet. Yeah, cyberpunk, I know. Raytracing pretty much means cyberpunk, that's the problem.

Right now I get to choose between 60fps or somewhat better shadows. But soon i can have both for just another $500. idk bout all that.

But maybe the rt floodgates will finally bust open and games start coming out with rt implementations like cyberpunk . Then I would take a good look at a pro.

 

[Xtib81]

As long as I can get performance AND quality in one mode, I'm fine but it sounds disappointing on paper. You'd expect bigger jumps after 4 years.

 

[REDRZA MWS]

Was 100% in last gen on pro consoles. I’m happily sitting round out. My ps5 hasn’t let me down in the slightest, and my rtx 4090 eats everything else up.

 

[RavionUHD]

Wouldnt be that very weak?
28 Teraflops FP32 is only 40% uplift against the base PS5, a RX 7700XT is 35 Teraflops FP32.

 

[DForce]

 

[Elios83]

 

[Little Chicken]

The upgrade doesn't really seem worth the time or trouble if what they're discussing is the actual "power" of the PS5 Pro. I don't think PS5 owners will be missing out on much.

 

[Zathalus]

Rather underwhelming if true. Roughly 7700XT raster performance with RT probably being just under a 4070.

 

[Elios83]

The upgrade doesn't really seem worth the time or trouble if what they're discussing is the actual "power" of the PS5 Pro. I don't think PS5 owners will be missing out on much.

It's kinda pointless to make these conclusions based on rumors. The risk is repeating again what happened with the 8 teraflops, no ray tracing, RDNA1.5 PS5
If Pro allows for much better ray tracing and better image quality getting rid of FSR for a much better reconstruction solution based on AI it will be worth it for people who care about graphics.

 

[Elios83]

I don't think it makes a lot of sense to have a GPU clocked lower than the one in current PS5.
Even if just for BC compatibility reasons.
So I wouldn't take all this stuff seriously unless it is leaked from people with proven credibility.

 

[icerock]

This is too good to be true. As always folks will be fixated on 14TFlops but this leak is saying there is custom hardware for both RT/Upscaling which is 100% false.

Not only would producing something like this be super expensive, but getting it to work on a mid-gen console without disturbing the logic of previous consoles would require a lot of R&D which means $$$. Sony aren't doing this much work for a mid-gen refresh. Custom hardware is the future, but all this tech is for PS6.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

This will be my GTA6 console.

 

[DenchDeckard]

GPU at 2ghz would be disappointing I think. That's only 200MHz faster than Series X isn't it?

Obviously it would have the benefits of being RDNA 3, so there is that and the extra grunt free'd up by dedicated raytracing hardware but I don't think it would be a huge jump over the current PS5?

have no idea tbh, just working with general numbers in my head.

 

[TheRedRiders]

Regardless of specs.

Trust in Cerny.

 

[ResilientBanana]

Doesn’t the PS5 have a custom solution for RT? Why would it now be AMD? Wouldn’t this cause current games with RT to have issues?

 

[Thirty7ven]

The point is upscalling and RT.

 

[chilichote]

If true, that sounds like a similar update to PS4 to PS4 Pro, which I can live with^^

Can anyone estimate how much power the PS5 Pro would draw based on these rumors?

 

[Portugeezer]

Spoiler: PS5 Pro version

 

[icerock]

As far as the clock frequency is concerned, I am surprised too but I'm guessing they want to keep the box size as small as possible to make aesthetically pleasing. So no need for bog cooling unit. Or like y'all are saying it might save costs in other ways.

I really hope this ends up being the real deal. The RT and AI hardware are serious gamechangers it frees up SO much cgpu compute it's crazy how the other thread has people just looking at 14 vs 10 tf and are disappointed not realizing so much of that 10tf is being eaten up by RT and native pixel processing.

Yep, these leaks suggest way too much cutting-edge tech for a console at this point in time. Sony aren't doing such extensive leg-work for a refresh. Also, as to how people decipher these specs is true telling of their actual tech knowledge and understanding. Pigeon holed into just parroting TF numbers like hamster they have been moulded into, while ignoring the future lies in all the bespoke hardware which would significantly increase the performance.

Still think, all this tech is for next-gen and just water cooler talk for a Pro version.

 

[FireFly]

LESS frequency than the PS5? This leak sounds like bullshit as that would break BC.

Should be getting 3.0 instead of 2.0 (PS5 is 2.23). This would mean performance would be roughly 20TF, or 2X PS5.

The 7800 XT only runs at ~2.4 GHz on PC for ~250W power consumption. Enthusiasts have been able to get down to 200W via undervolting and circa-PS5 clock speeds.

 

[skit_data]

Sounds interesting if true.
If it has actual upscaling techniques that does a lot of the heavy lifting + RT performance uplifts the net result will probably be more impressive than what the relatively small TFLOP gain indicates.

Edit: I'd stay relatively skeptical towards these specs though. A friendly reminder that the PS5 specs wasn't fully revealed until Cerny was up there ASMRing them for the whole world to see, despite many many "leaks" that were more or less inaccurate. Don't think any leaks were 100% on the money back then.

 

[PeteBull]

Sounds interesting if true.
If it has actual upscaling techniques that does a lot of the heavy lifting + RT performance uplifts the net result will probably be more impressive than what the relatively small TFLOP gain indicates.

If only it was produced on full fat 3nm node, it would be easily 2x more powerful from base ps5, if leaks turn out to be true specs gonna be diseapointing af, ofc i will still buy it, likely with gta6 bundle lol, but i did hold out on base ps5(coz of extremly diseapointing specs, went with 2x stronger 3080ti instead for pc gpu upgrade).

About what owners of current gen consoles gonna do- likely xbox series owners will use that opportunity to switch( ) sides, and any non casual ps5 base owner will be there day1, gaffers included =P

We all can say we wont buy it but once new shiny game drops, be it gta6 or maybe wolverine or other top quality game, from sony first party, or not, u will wanna play it on pr0, not pleb version of a console with resolution and who knows what other kinds of cutbacks

 

[digdug2]

The problem with the PS5 Pro is that it will arrive so late into this generation that only first-party titles will actually make use of it and most third-party games likely won't or won't support it fully. The rumours are that there is no Xbox Series X Pro this time round so developers have less incentive to support it. Sure, the Pro would mean that those third-party games that don't hit a locked 60 fps may run better on the Pro but we already have VRR so assuming the games don't drop below 48 fps then the extra performance is actually less exciting than it was back when the PS4 Pro was released (and that was basically a 1440p 30 fps console, let's face it).

What's the point of even putting money toward R&D if there's nothing to gain? Plenty of newer games dip below 48fps at times, thereby rendering VRR useless, so more power is welcomed by many.

The idea of playing games in Quality mode at locked 60fps with full Ray Tracing enabled is easily just as exciting as what the PS4 Pro brought to the table. Hell, even the notion of playing every PS5 game with uncapped framerates at 60fps sounds great.

 

[King Dazzar]

I expected it to be an evolutionary, rather than a revolutionary uptick. It comes across as believable to me. A solid incremental mid gen increase.

 

[Mr Moose]

14tf? No way that is real.

Just for improved ray tracing performance?

I don't believe it.

We have seen what 12 vs 10 delivers.

14 or even 15 vs 12 would not be a big enough difference in raw compute to offer anything but a slightly higher 15 to 20 resolution increase.

I get that it could handle better raytracing qt those resolutions which is cool but I call bullshit on these leaks.

It needs/must be close to 20tf imo.

If we're only looking at the TF then yeah it can look a bit meh but as a whole it might be better than it appears. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Tiago Rodrigues]

The problem with the PS5 Pro is that it will arrive so late into this generation that only first-party titles will actually make use of it and most third-party games likely won't or won't support it fully. The rumours are that there is no Xbox Series X Pro this time round so developers have less incentive to support it. Sure, the Pro would mean that those third-party games that don't hit a locked 60 fps may run better on the Pro but we already have VRR so assuming the games don't drop below 48 fps then the extra performance is actually less exciting than it was back when the PS4 Pro was released (and that was basically a 1440p 30 fps console, let's face it).

What do you mean? We have barely started to get multiple 1st party games per year. All Sony studios are only doing PS5 games. Next gen is probably starting in 2029...2028 at best. Most of this gen is yet to happen.

 

[Salmon Snake]

60 fps on Pro?

 

[jroc74]

1. No sane third-party developer will compromise the PlayStation version of their game for a missing Xbox Pro. The dominant market share of PlayStation will ensure that it never happens.
2. Most games use DRS anyway. In such games, the dynamic average resolution will be significantly higher anyway, making it a better version automatically. Games that offer unlocked frame rates will fare even better. And all this without any special optimization -- of which there will be many.

DRS and unlocked, unlocking frame rates.

I'm surprised some ppl aren't thinking about this.

 

[PeteBull]

60 fps on Pro?

Nope, but at least native 1440p stable 30fps, unlike base ps5 which will defo not hold those if we wanna keep graphic fidelity from trailer kept xD

 

[skit_data]

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

The Pro would sell well. I know enough friends who would buy one, including me. I have another friend who is holding of his PS5 purchase until the Pro.

As we get further into the generation and some really intensive looking games come out more will want one. Basically at $500-600 I think quite a lot of people would bite, enough to warrant its existence.

 

[bitbydeath]

Mark Cerny is behind it, it’s probably doing the butterfly thing again.

 

[skit_data]

Mark Cerny is behind it, it’s probably doing the butterfly thing again.

*Cerny goes back in time to strangle himself with the umbillical cord*
"No Cerny, not that butterfly thing!"
/s

 

[VolticArchangel]

~28-30 TF raster huh?

That's ~3x the base PS5 perf, hence the internal codename "Trinity"?

 

[leizzra]

I'm not sure about that GPU clock. It's quite strange especially considering what Cerny said about clock speed vs number of CU's. There are instances where higher speed is better and PS5 is showing that in some games. Now if the clocks will be slower theoretically it can be problematic in some cases. Even the newer tech and more CU's won't solve that. As we know, Sony likes simple ways for backward compatibility because it means that they don't need to test every game. Sure, they can test it in few conditions but still it's a risk.

The biggest problem for me though is that those specs seems to be too detailed. Assuming it's from devs - they don't care about those and it's not like first thing they do is to look at all those numbers (also I think that the documentation isn't this specific, but this is not what I'm working with). My experience dealing with programmers is that they don't care about that. They prefer to launch the code of the game on the hardware and check how it comperes to other (like how much ms gain do it brings). I think that this type of specs we see more form Cerny (presentation or interview with DF) or from APU xray.

Also I think that we can have a look at the dev kit itself first rarther then detailed spec.

 

[VolticArchangel]

I'm not sure about that GPU clock. It's quite strange especially considering what Cerny said about clock speed vs number of CU's. There are instances where higher speed is better and PS5 is showing that in some games. Now if the clocks will be slower theoretically it can be problematic in some cases. Even the newer tech and more CU's won't solve that. As we know, Sony likes simple ways for backward compatibility because it means that they don't need to test every game. Sure, they can test it in few conditions but still it's a risk.

AMD Smartshift isn't going anywhere, and Cerny of all people will put it to efficient use in the Pro, going by how it performed in the base PS5.

They won't change things drastically, though higher clocks are not a problem, since they can do profiles, like the PS4 backcompat spec profile.

 

[TheRedRiders]

There's no way someone knows this much information about the Viola chip unless they're an engineer at AMD or Playstation and even then they're not stupid enough to leak this much information.

The XDNA stuff is a giveaway. this just sounds like a whish list after AMD's recent AI conference.

The clocks also remind me of the Github Oberon leaks, which were also wrong.

 

[Horseganador]

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Regardless of specs.

Trust in Cerny.

I've got a lot of confidence in Cerny. He's a smart guy and he listens to developers.

I would be STUNNED if he hasn't taken feedback from developers internally and externally on the challenges dealing with PS5 development the last 4 years.

Ultimately, due to price restrictions, we might not get everything we want i.e. 2x raw performance, but they might be able to reduce bottlenecks in critical areas that result in better performance none the less.

Much of the feedback will likely go towards the PS6, but if the PS5 Pro launches for 500 dollars with any real meaningful performance advantages, it'll be a winner. A lot of things that developers want will have to wait because you still have the PS5 to deal with. You have to ask yourself within the confines of the original PS5 what can you do. You can't make development easier because you still need a base model. You have to look at the most efficient and cost effective ways to improve performance.

Like for an extra 100-200 dollars what specs will get you to significantly better looking/performing games.

 

[PeteBull]

There's no way someone knows this much information about the Viola chip unless they're an engineer at AMD or Playstation and they're not stupid enough to leak this much information.

The XDNA stuff is a giveaway. this just sounds like a whish list after AMD's recent AI conference.

The clocks also remind me of the Github Oberon leaks, which were also wrong.

If pr0 launches holiday 2024 then devs, at least first party, already got dev kits or at least know specs( maybe clocks can be still upped a bit later on but besides that it has to be set in stone by now, year before launch).

Again assuming november 2024 launch we should expect massive leaks coming soon coz 3rd party devs gonna be getting devkits soonish too, max by spring 2024 we will know everything about ps5pr0 despite official reveal likely coming only 2-3months before launch, akin to ps4pr0 situation that had reveal in september before november launch.